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Aside from the author's statement that Caedus is more powerful, I see no reason to believe it. Caedus doesn't have any feats that are on Vader's level. What do you guys think?

Sabers
Force
All out

Vader in all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vader in all.
...wat?

He doesn't have the raw telekinesis feats, but this is where I think powerscaling and accolades win over that. Vader is afraid of Palpatine, while Caedus can at least somewhat contest Luke in close quarters. You'd also expect him to be more powerful given his age and likely superior potential - he's been training and fighting for perhaps longer.

Caedus certainly wins sabers - Caedus did better against angry peak Luke than Vader did against angry RotJ Luke (.i.e. Vader couldn't do shit), and I doubt rage! RotJ Luke > LotF Luke.

Force, I'd still say Caedus. He has lightning, he has shatterpoint to break his armor, he knows a variety of random ass Force powers, etc. He doesn't have the TK feats, but this may be from a lack of contexts or opportunities.

All-out goes to Caedus.

I've lowered Caedus as I've worked on my RT for him. They're close though.

Caedus takes sabers, unquestionably. Force is a bit interesting.

1. Caedus
2. Vader
3. Either way

Caedus.
Vader.
Either way.

Is Jacen's turbolaser blocking thing legit?

Also, doesn't he throw around Jaina after getting gutted in Invincible? The same Jaina, that, years earlier, was calling down 50m trees with no demonstrable strain?

up

When did Jaina knock down 50 meter trees?

I believe she did that on the nexus of Yavin IV.

Caedus

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I believe she did that on the nexus of Yavin IV.

No it was in one of the Dark Nest books, on a planet where the Chiss were fighting a hive.

I don't remember what planet it was, maybe Nova knows

Ah. I recall someone else then throwing around trees. Anakin Solo, I assume.

This turbolaser blocking feat could be a game changer.

Vader deflected turbolasers in lords of the Sith with his lightsaber

It's not on Yavin IV, it's on Tenupe. The feat's in The Swarm War.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Is Jacen's turbolaser blocking thing legit?
No.

Jacen blocked Turbolasers at the beginning of one of the Swarm Wars books from Chiss frigates, it happened. Its in one of the same scenes where Jaina is dodging Cannonfire/turnbolasers, Zekk and Jaina also deflect them iirc

Jaina deflecting turbolasers is pretty good, tbh.

Yeah, I certainly think Vader would take Force.

Originally posted by carthage
Jacen blocked Turbolasers at the beginning of one of the Swarm Wars books from Chiss frigates, it happened. Its in one of the same scenes where Jaina is dodging Cannonfire/turnbolasers, Zekk and Jaina also deflect them iirc
No, he blocked the cannon fire. The text specifically made clear that it wasn't the turbos, tbh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Caedus takes sabers, unquestionably. Force is a bit interesting.
Because....?

Because Caedus is supposedly better than Vader as a Force wielder, in spite of generally lacking showings of raw power to match that?

Except throwing around Jaina with the level of injuries he sustained, that is.

He's talking about sabers.

Oh. Then his performance against Jaina, Vong Slayers, and to an extent, Luke. He's also faster than Vader.

I know he has low showings, though, so I suppose it's fair if you rank him below Vader.

His losing to Luke is one of the most shameful things in this mythos.

Also I'm undecided on Caedus. It's this, "unquestionably" nonsense I'm talking about.

Well, I'm only using top showings. I don't see Vader matching his performance against Jaina. Not sure how his performance against Luke is one of the most shameful. Most people would die instantly.

Unless you want to take into account him struggling with Mandalorians or something and lower him accordingly, then it's pretty clear in my mind.

Because? Jaina's certainly talented among the best in the myths, but she's hardly out of Vader's league. And no, I don't think most people would die instantly when they have every advantage imaginable. If Caedus was even remotely close to Luke in sabers, he would have killed him.

No, that's really not necessary.

Well, if you reckon Vader can match Jaina with Luke helping her or with one arm and after being gutted with a lightsaber, then yeah, he's as good as Caedus.

Tbf it's not as if Vader is any closer to Luke as a lightsaber combatant considering Luke demonstrated that he was => Vader as a lightsaber combatant by RotJ and he's only grown in both power and skill up to the point he faces Caedus.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
1. Caedus
2. Vader
3. Either way

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, if you reckon Vader can match Jaina with Luke helping her or with one arm and after being gutted with a lightsaber, then yeah, he's as good as Caedus.
Vader only fights with one arm, and unlike the vast majority of this forum, I don't think helping someone makes them jump several tiers.

IMO, this would be a brutal contest. And Darth Vader can win, should he not grant Darth Caedus much room to maneuver.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader only fights with one arm

?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader only fights with one arm, and unlike the vast majority of this forum, I don't think helping someone makes them jump several tiers.

What? He fights with two arms in battles where he's challenged - like against Obi-Wan in ANH and Luke in RotJ.

Moreover, fighting with one arm of your own volition and fighting with an arm chopped off is different. And Caedus fights with two arms normally, IIRC, so that's a hindrance to him, which is my point. I couldn't care less how many arms Vader fights with.

As for jumping several tiers - not once did I insinuate that, so brilliant red herring

I assume you have no actual counter for the point?

Originally posted by SunRazer
What? He fights with two arms in battles where he's challenged - like against Obi-Wan in ANH and Luke in RotJ.

You mean in a movie designed before Vader's entire character was?

It really isn't.

The difference between fighting with one arm and fighting with two is nowhere near as big a hindrance as you're implying it is. A lightsaber's blade is weightless, and the movements made in combat are pretty much all made by instinct.

I'm saying Jania would have to already be comparable to Caedus in one way or another if she's able to combat him, even if she has Luke's help. It's really not that hard.

I mean if you're retarded maybe.

Luke also trounces Jacen pretty firmly in an earlier duel set up by Lumiya.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You mean in a movie designed before Vader's entire character was?

Even though every single supplementary source for the movies released then doesn't contradict that?

Vader's fought with two hands in recent fights as well (most recently against Ahsoka) - he blends in one-handed and two-handed fighting. And Djem So relies on broad strikes and two-handed fighting. Your implication that Vader doesn't use two-handed fighting is flat-out contradicted.



It is, depending on who you're talking about.



Muscle memory? If somebody's been fighting with two arms all their life, you don't think it'll make much of a difference when they're forced to fight with one?



And Jaina isn't comparable to Vader? I'd argue that she's closer to Vader than she is to Caedus - well, that should be obvious given my stance, but regardless.



Not as retarded as blatantly ignoring the part where I said Caedus was gutted by Jaina with a lightsaber, which you still haven't accounted for. So yes, it looks like you have no counter for it.

Other than circularly comparing her ability to Caedus', what skill feats does Jaina have under her belt that make her akin to Vader? What has she done that, say, Ven Zallow couldn't?

Being the combat equal of anyone in the Order

And you think Vader can match Ven Zallow with one arm and wounds proportional to Caedus being gutted?

Even assuming that Jaina was arbitrarily Luke's combat equal by FotJ, that doesn't apply to LotF. The fact that she wasn't a match for Caedus itself proves that much. Anything else?

I'm joking. She's obviously not a match for Luke.

But chopping down Sith for days, beating several Sith sabers on DK, beating that Warmaster with her legs pinioned and decades to grow since etc. puts her above Zallow. There's also her holding off two Vong warriors with one hand early in NJO when she was pinned to a wall and leaking blood from her head.

Originally posted by SunRazer

puts her above Zallow.


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/g901_EkN7e8/maxresdefault.jpg

Crop that damn image, lol.

All i can say is I'm glad Caedus is getting a proper inspection.

I looked at his feats and was bitterly disappointed.

Much like Ragnos?

Now that's the difference.



Ragnos has no feats to disappoint me with.

Losing to Jaden Korr?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111152067/4797640-7723540957-jimmi.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8RjPAD2Jk

Vader has beaten old men and barely trained boys, he shits on Caedus in sabers.