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Neutral ground, peak combatants.

We all know Dooku loses, but by how much? That's what I'm trying to find out. Is it a casual beat down, or a ragdoll?

By a small-moderate margin imo.

The case for Dooku in Legends is that:

1. He ragdolls Obi Wan while Vader matches him evenly
2. Vader is careful in the Death Star novel not too play around
3. Vader comments in the same novel that Kenobi has declined

I think if they were ever going to fight Vader in a force duel, Vader would probably just overwhelm him. Dooku's lightning would just be deflected by barrier, and at best he'd probably just knock Vader back with TK. Dooku would be able to defend for a few secondsat first but Vader's sheer telekinetic might would just send him flying or shatter his barrier once he starts to weaken, realistically there isn't much he could do to Vader

If he had his Korriban amp, he'd die with a bit more of a fight

By a small margin

Ragdolls.

Dooku < Anakin < LotS Vader < ANH Vader < ESB Vader < RotJ Vader

Anakin >> Vader > Dooku.

I don't think he ragdolls, but he does beat him without too much difficulty.

Vader doesn't out-skill Dooku, he simply has more raw power.

By a very considerable margin.

Yeah, Vader.

Anakin was rage-amped when he fought Dooku.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Ragdolls.

Dooku < Anakin < LotS Vader < ANH Vader < ESB Vader < RotJ Vader

If RotJ Vader is 80 percent of Sidious, where would reckon Dooku would be? I'd say 60 percent but of course I'm skewed.

1%

Higher than 60%, Kurk.

The Obi Wan scaling that favors Dooku aside, id say the gap has to be pretty big to fit in the different incarnations of Vader, and also people I'd put in between like Revan and Ragnos.

50%, yeah.

No. Dooku is above 60.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
No. Dooku is above 60.

Yeah he was 83 years old when he got nonconsensual sex from Anakin.

ily both.

Dooku fanboy says 60%; Vader is 80%. Shouldn't be a stomp

Moderate difficulty

60% to 80% is indeed a stomp. Which is why Dooku is more than 60%.

It's smaller than the Vader-Sidious gap for sure.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
50%, yeah.

But then again, I have this chain:

RotJ Vader / post-Nathema Vitiate?
ESB Vader / Exar Kun?
ANH Vader
TFU Vader / Galen Marek / SoR Revan
Revan Reborn
KotOR Revan
Darth Revan / Marka Ragnos
Dooku / Freedon Nadd / Pre-Nathema Vitiate?

So you need lots of space. It isn't really consistent with how Obi Wan was able to match Vader in ANH, or heck how so many randos were, but it is consistent with more recent, badass interpretations of his character.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Huh?

Vader up there with post-Nathema Vitiate for starters.....

As in Vitiate right after Nathema. I think that's reasonable, if you powerscale backwards from novel Vitiate, whose feats aren't even solidly above Vader's especially given his nexus, and TOR Vitiate, who is more impressive. Given that Vader still has a freak amount of potential, it isn't that difficult to imagine that he's such a powerhouse that he could match Vitiate after his ritual.

Dooku takes it but in a duel this would edge would matter little. Although his lightning is pretty good :/

His ability to deal with lightning aside, Vader boasts a solid advantage as a telekinetic. That being said, the idea that Vader would ragdoll Dooku might be as ludicrous as the idea he would best Sidious in a lightsaber duel.

I don't see Dooku anywhere near frigate busting, tbh. mmm

How does he not get ragdolled?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
His ability to deal with lightning aside, Vader boasts a solid advantage as a telekinetic. That being said, the idea that Vader would ragdoll Dooku might be as ludicrous as the idea he would best Sidious in a lightsaber duel.

Not like Vader hasn't already ragdolled the shit out of someone who craps all over Dooku's decapitated head.

It's been stated that Vader was just f*cking with Starkiller in TFUII, the same Starkiller that blew up a f*cking frigate.

Realistically, and based off of feats, he should be able to ragdoll Dooku. But if this were to actually happen I don't see it being that easy for Vader.

Originally posted by Kurk
If RotJ Vader is 80 percent of Sidious, where would reckon Dooku would be? I'd say 60 percent but of course I'm skewed.


Vader was 80% of Palpatine overall. However as a Tekekintic I'd argue he's on par with Palpatine.

So he probably could ragdoll Dooku tbh.

George says they're on the same tier, alongside Maul. Shove that up yer arses VaderIs4/5sOfSid brigade

Originally posted by MythLord
George says they're on the same tier, alongside Maul. Shove that up yer arses VaderIs4/5sOfSid brigade


Canon says Vader > Rebels Maul > TCW Maul > TPM Maul.

So we've moved a long way since the days where Lucas implied that maybe Vader = TPM Maul

Yeah, and if we're going off Jeremy Barlow, Vader's on a separate level to Dooku, who's on a separate level to Maul.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Canon say Rebels Maul > TCW Maul


Canon says this nowhere.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Canon says this no where. Denial will get you nowhere.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, and if we're going off Jeremy Barlow, Vader's on a separate level to Dooku,


Don't even have to go off Barlow for this part, as Canon novels and statements have confirmed Machine Vader > ROTS Anakin who we know was > Dooku.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku, who's on a separate level to Maul.

Rebels Maul might finally be on par with Dooku tbf though.

We'll have to see more before we can pass such judgment.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Canon says Vader > Rebels Maul > TCW Maul > TPM Maul.

So we've moved a long way since the days where Lucas implied that maybe Vader = TPM Maul

I never said equal, lmfao. I'm saying they're on the same tier. Maul's power might've grown, but not to place him beyond Vader's general league, meaning they'd still be in the same tier.

So still, if Vader is 80 of Palpatine like people tote around, then he's also just somewhat above Maul and Tyranus

He said that Vader was "maybe eighty percent" of the Emperor's power, and then he clearly suggested that Maul and Tyranus were closer to him than he was to Sidious. It's doesn't deserve a fraction of the wank it gets, tbh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He said that Vader was "maybe eighty percent" of the Emperor's power, and then he clearly suggested that Maul and Tyranus were closer to him than he was to Sidious. It's doesn't deserve a fraction of the wank it gets, tbh.

'Tis the point I'm trying to make. If we take that quote seriously, then we should take all of Lucas' words seriously and that, quite frankly, won't pay off much.

I know. It's just funny that quite a few people who ramble on about context when it comes to other quotes refuse to acknowledge the context for this one.

Is anyone from Dooku camp going to make a case of him not being ragdolled, here?

Originally posted by MythLord
I never said equal, lmfao. I'm saying they're on the same tier. Maul's power might've grown, but not to place him beyond Vader's general league, meaning they'd still be in the same tier.

So still, if Vader is 80 of Palpatine like people tote around, then he's also just somewhat above Maul and Tyranus


Completely outdated quote.

Lucas was referring to TPM Maul at the time LMAO.

Vader is in another league to TCW Maul let alone TPM Maul.

It's seems Dooku nuthuggers only case here, is quote nitpicking.

I haven't passed judgment on this fight yet, lol.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Is anyone from Dooku camp going to make a case of him not being ragdolled, here?

Feats?

Dooku hasn't shown anything close to frigate busting --- before hitting his peak --- tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Dooku hasn't shown anything close to frigate busting --- before hitting his peak --- tbh.

Yeah. Smashing together 80-600m cruisers with two other ships and hurling that wreckage so it can block the entrance, and doing it "easily". And leaving behind pools of darkness in the process.

Yeah, we have no clue how big those ships were ---- it was on a DS Nexus, that, and moving ships requires nowhere near the force required to obliterate them. Especially, when you're simultaneously shielding it from star-level heat.

So yeah, Dooku still isn't a Starkiller-tier Force users, KEK.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, we have no clue how big those ships were ---- it was on a DS Nexus, that, and moving ships requires nowhere near the force required to obliterate them. Especially, when you're simultaneously shielding it from star-level heat.

So yeah, Dooku still isn't Starkiller-tier Force users, KEK.

Every ancient war cruiser that Watson could've been referring to would have to be 80m-600m.

The DS nexus argument doesn't work since it was just about impotent by then, and Dooku presumably grows in power in the four years after. Starkiller isn't the only one who did his feat pre-prime. And Starkiller used maximum effort, IIRC, whereas Dooku did it all "easily".

Starkiller obliterated the frigate instantly once he saw Juno is next to Vader. He had no time to charge up his power.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Completely outdated quote.

So is Vader being 4/5s of Sidious. Which is why I'm arguing neither quote should be used for validity.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lucas was referring to TPM Maul at the time LMAO.

This is relevant, why? While Maul does grow in power, I don't neccessarily think it's by any substantial margin to suddenly mark him a tier ahead of his TPM self.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Vader is in another league to TCW Maul let alone TPM Maul.

Lucas disagrees.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Starkiller obliterated the frigate instantly once he saw Juno is next to Vader. He had no time to charge up his power.
Exactly. It took, like, seconds at most.

I didn't say he charged it up. But he did use more effort than the Count, yes? The rest of my response will come later.

DC, did you just make this thread to bait us out?

Originally posted by SunRazer DC, did you just make this thread to bait us out?

Yep. I wanted to take on you and Wollf regarding this topic for quite sometime now....trying to take out two birds with one stone.

ily both, tho. <3

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yep. I wanted to take on you and Wollf regarding this topic for quite sometime now....trying to take out two birds with one stone.

ily both, tho. <3

Ah, well, in that case, I'll suspend my response until tomorrow.

Do does the cruiser feat put Dooku closer to Vader now?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Do does the cruiser feat put Dooku closer to Vader now?

I'd assume so.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
ily both, tho. <3

I mean, it might actually put him above Galen Marek, who was flabbergasted at the idea of redirecting a falling star destroyer. Dooku was able to fling around cruisers so he could probably pull that off.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean, it might actually put him above Galen Marek.

lel

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean, it might actually put him above Galen Marek, who was flabbergasted at the idea of redirecting a falling star destroyer. Dooku was able to fling around cruisers so he could probably pull that off.
ISD's >>>>>>>>>ambigious cruisers of unspecific size.

Yeah, even at absolute best the cruisers are less than half the size of an ISD.

Originally posted by MythLord
So is Vader being 4/5s of Sidious. Which is why I'm arguing neither quote should be used for validity.

You're right. Nowadays it's closer to 5/5s.



Originally posted by MythLord
This is relevant, why? While Maul does grow in power, I don't neccessarily think it's by any substantial margin to suddenly mark him a tier ahead of his TPM self.


Because these little power ups add up to the point where Vader is on another level to Maul.



Originally posted by MythLord
Lucas disagrees.


No he doesn't.

Not only are you quoting him out of context, but Filoni is protective over Vader's powerset (putting him clearly above Maul and Dooku) because that's the way Lucas wanted it.


Either way Lucas isn't in charge anymore. Vader is in a league of his own above Maul and Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're right. Nowadays it's closer to 5/5s.

Is that why Sidious can do anything Vader can do, with more ease, while showing far less of his power?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Because these little power ups add up to the point where Vader is on another level to Maul.

No they don't, lmao. There's no reason to assume Maul would improve vastly, or even significantly, by being a hermit and living underground. That'd still make Rebels Maul three notches above TPM Maul and a notch below Vader, but in the same tier.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No he doesn't.

Not only are you quoting him out of context, but Filoni is protective over Vader's powerset (putting him clearly above Maul and Dooku) because that's the way Lucas wanted it.

Either way Lucas isn't in charge anymore. Vader is in a league of his own above Maul and Dooku.

LMAO. There is no context, he says Vader is more comparable to Maul or Dooku, than Sidious. If people want to throw around Vader being 80% of Sidious cuz Lucas said so, then lets all say Dooku and Maul are near equal to Vader cuz Lucas said so.

I do hope you realize I believe neither quote is valid and Vader is clearly > Maul and Dooku in power. I'm simply pointing out the double standards users have on this forum.

Thor's been trying to find a Sith to take Sheev down a peg for years lmao. He hates the fact that Sheev is smarter, more powerful, and better than Maul and Dooku.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Thor's been trying to find a Sith to take Sheev down a peg for years lmao. He hates the fact that Sheev is smarter, more powerful, and better than Maul and Dooku.


You turn into Quanchi to troll me every time I mention Palpatine. I mean seriously this post of yours sounds exactly like something Quanchi would write about me.

I've never once said any of those guys beats Palpatine in a Lightsaber fight. So calm down.

The only thing I said recently is that Vader is arguably more powerful than ANY Jedi or Sith when looking at how he Solos Rebel fleets Via his Piloting abilities. I haven't seen the likes of Yoda, Mace or Sidious do that. And they don't have the piloting accolades to suggest they could do that either.

I'm only praising Vader's new found feats and accolades under Disney. And I've certainly not singled Palaptine out as being his inferior in this assessment.

New flash Tempest: Not everything's about Palpatine.

Originally posted by Darth Thor


New flash Tempest: Not everything's about Palpatine.

This. Jesus Christ.

Tempest: Jesus is nothing to the One True Sheev.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, even at absolute best the cruisers are less than half the size of an ISD.

Yeah, but Dooku was throwing them around while Galen had to put every ounce of himself into just redirecting a falling ISD.

I dunno, I still have Dooku < Galen, but this makes it interesting.

^ Where was Dooku throwing Cruises around?

Do we know those cruisers aren't just Jedi star-fighters?

Given that 'cruiser' is pretty much a vague designation for a star-ship of varying sizes. And of course, as DMB pointed out, the same author had used the term to label speeders. Now, during the events of the Final Showdown, they're weren't dropping off an army of troops. The Jedi's ships would have only needed capacity for about, lets say around 10 people. So i doubt this is Dooku's defining feat.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The only thing I said recently is that Vader is arguably more powerful than ANY Jedi or Sith when looking at how he Solos Rebel fleets Via his Piloting abilities. I haven't seen the likes of Yoda, Mace or Sidious do that. And they don't have the piloting accolades to suggest they could do that either.


Piloting is one of Vader's specialties - it's not a stretch to say that he would be a better one than Sidious, lmfao.



You're wasting your time if you think that's gonna register, lol.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You turn into Quanchi to troll me every time I mention Palpatine. I mean seriously this post of yours sounds exactly like something Quanchi would write about me.

I've never once said any of those guys beats Palpatine in a Lightsaber fight. So calm down.

The only thing I said recently is that Vader is arguably more powerful than ANY Jedi or Sith when looking at how he Solos Rebel fleets Via his Piloting abilities. I haven't seen the likes of Yoda, Mace or Sidious do that. And they don't have the piloting accolades to suggest they could do that either.

I'm only praising Vader's new found feats and accolades under Disney. And I've certainly not singled Palaptine out as being his inferior in this assessment.

New flash Tempest: Not everything's about Palpatine.

That's uniquely stupid phrasing on your part. Of course Vader's the superior pilot. That's about as relevant to "who's more powerful" as cooking prowess or the ability to play Guitar Hero.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/4325485/darth-vader-kneels-o.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/41224/4973700-palpatine+maul+1.gif

http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-29-2014/bdNoOB.gif

They're all Sheev's b1tches.

http://i.imgur.com/fU9jYP0.png

^ Savage Oppress was at least able to move against Sidious's TK, while Caedus couldn't even shake his head against that of Luke, who didn't even have to gesture or visibly exert himself. mmm

Pfft. Sidious never struggled with a feeb like Lumiya.

Sidious > Luke confirmed tbh.

Sheev did get benched by Leia tho. he

Lumiya > Sidious 2016.

Sidious feared that ESB Luke could destroy him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious feared that ESB Luke could destroy him.

Before putting ROTJ Luke on his ass. excellent

On a more serious note, I doubt that Dooku would've dared to resist Sidious's attack, so I don't think that alone constitutes proof that he could ragdoll him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
On a more serious note, I doubt that Dooku would've dared to resist Sidious's attack, so I don't think that alone constitutes proof that he could ragdoll him.

Given the tens of thousands of lightyears and armies and fleets between them, I think that would probably have been the best moment for Dooku to dare anything.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You turn into Quanchi to troll me every time I mention Palpatine. I mean seriously this post of yours sounds exactly like something Quanchi would write about me.

I've never once said any of those guys beats Palpatine in a Lightsaber fight. So calm down.

The only thing I said recently is that Vader is arguably more powerful than ANY Jedi or Sith when looking at how he Solos Rebel fleets Via his Piloting abilities. I haven't seen the likes of Yoda, Mace or Sidious do that. And they don't have the piloting accolades to suggest they could do that either.

I'm only praising Vader's new found feats and accolades under Disney. And I've certainly not singled Palaptine out as being his inferior in this assessment.

New flash Tempest: Not everything's about Palpatine. That isn't relevant since that requires a ship and one occurrence but he was outplayed by the rebels ace. Han Solo is a great pilot as well but don't try comparing him in terms of combat ability to Maul, Dooku, or Palpatine. It's just ridiculous. You're being a Vader fanboy and your ridiculous logic is getting torn apart.

It's not like tens of thousands of light-years put him beyond Sidious's reach, or that those armies and fleets would obey him over his master. Dooku would have nothing to gain by trying to defy Palpatine. I guess you could say that he would've instinctively tried to protect himself, but I'm not completely sure.

Granted I still think Sidious could ragdoll him if he wanted to in a real fight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not like tens of thousands of light-years put him beyond Sidious's reach, or that those armies and fleets would obey him over his master. Dooku would have nothing to gain by trying to defy Palpatine. I guess you could say that he would've instinctively tried to protect himself, but I'm not completely sure.

Granted I still think Sidious could ragdoll him if he wanted to in a real fight.

As far as the vast majority of the Confederacy is concerned, Dooku is supreme. During the war, Grievous and Ventress know who's really in charge. By the war's end, most of the Separatist Council goes. But how much of Sidious's authority to them derives from the mere fact that Dooku obeys him? There's no telling what might have happened if Dooku threw off that yoke. I'm sure Sidious had some sort of contingency in place, but there's no concrete evidence that Dooku would be ousted.

So the point is that while distance obviously doesn't make Dooku invulnerable, he's got a much better chance of surviving/winning with lots of distance and armies between them.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that Dooku wanted to turn against Palpatine, and just needed to be physically distant from him? He's constantly far away from Palpatine. Why would he suddenly choose that time to resist him, when he's being attacked, and would give away his intentions? Why doesn't he do this any other time? Is it just a pride thing because he doesn't want to get humiliated or something?

And as of the RotS novelization Dooku doesn't seem to have any plans to overthrow Sidious.

Dooku is above ANH Vader.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that Dooku wanted to turn against Palpatine, and just needed to be physically distant from him? He's constantly far away from Palpatine. Why would he suddenly choose that time to resist him, when he's being attacked, and would give away his intentions? Why doesn't he do this any other time? Is it just a pride thing because he doesn't want to get humiliated or something?

I'm saying if Dooku's ever going to stand up and fight back, the time was probably when Sidious wasn't there in person. The general rule of thumb for most fights when one is outmatched is to put as much distance between you and the other guy and put as much shit as you possibly can in between. The reason Dooku didn't resist because he knows it's futile either way.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And as of the RotS novelization Dooku doesn't seem to have any plans to overthrow Sidious.

Yeah but that changed in 2008 when TCW was released. Dooku was planning to overthrow Sidious with Ventress, then with Savage.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Dooku is above ANH Vader. I agree.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious feared that ESB Luke could destroy him.
He also believed Vader could destroy him

"Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way."

"Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. "

Tempest, yeah, but Dooku is away from Palpatine like 95% of the time. It would be completely arbitrary for him to challenge Sidious's holocron except as a matter of pride. It would actually be incredibly stupid even if he wanted to - he would give away his hand and alert Sidious to his intentions. Better play dumb and plot behind his back.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Tempest, yeah, but Dooku is away from Palpatine like 95% of the time. It would be completely arbitrary for him to challenge Sidious's holocron except as a matter of pride. It would actually be incredibly stupid even if he wanted to - he would give away his hand and alert Sidious to his intentions. Better play dumb and plot behind his back.

Dooku's sin is his pride lol. And I'm not saying it would have been smart to fight back; Dooku clearly would have died, that's the point. The point is that despite all that time, distance, and shittons of manpower commanded by Dooku between them... Dooku was choked like a b1tch. Because none of those things would have made a bit of difference. In the flesh or via hologram, Sidious would have stomped him either way.

Well now when I think about it Vader did imply in ANH he was way stronger than his prequel self. But Dooku was able to vaporize stone and metal in AOTC with his lightning. So who knows.

Vader melted durasteel in 18BBY with a force scream.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku's sin is his pride lol.

That doesn't mean he doesn't know how to lie - heck, you said it yourself he was plotting behind Sidious's back, and yet showing deference to his face. How could he train Ventress to overthrow him if he told his holocron to piss off and tried to fight it?



Circular logic, tbh, since that's what you're trying to prove, lol. He would have, but the holocron scene itself is not conclusive evidence for it.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Well now when I think about it Vader did imply in ANH he was way stronger than his prequel self. But Dooku was able to vaporize stone and metal in AOTC with his lightning. So who knows.

Dooku did no such thing, he blasted some bits off the wall. Which is an Act I Nox tier feat.

I'm going by just the films. EU Vader is above Dooku I agree.

Originally posted by The Merchant
I'm going by just the films.

Why tho?

We see Dookus lightning get redirected and hitting a random stone wall and we see an explosiom follow right after. Either his lightning is powerful enough to be explosive or he vaped that section. Still impressive either way. Idc about faggy Nox.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That doesn't mean he doesn't know how to lie - heck, you said it yourself he was plotting behind Sidious's back, and yet showing deference to his face. How could he train Ventress to overthrow him if he told his holocron to piss off and tried to fight it?

Why would the guy who's willing to throw himself at Yoda pretty casually feel the need to train backup against Sidious?

Dooku is lying to Sidious's face and showing deference while plotting behind his back because he knows he'd get stomped lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Circular logic, tbh, since that's what you're trying to prove, lol. He would have, but the holocron scene itself is not conclusive evidence for it.

Not really, no lol. Dooku's prideful and has balls of steel, seeking out the likes of Talzin and Yoda in combat. He's only afraid of Sidious. Why? Because Sidious is where his pride fails him. He cowers and dissembles and conceals because Sidious would punch his shit in and he knows it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku is lying to Sidious's face and showing deference while plotting behind his back because he knows he'd get stomped lol.


That's evidence that he would lose. That's not evidence that Sidious could ragdoll him...



This is a separate argument from his getting choked, which is what I was focusing on.

-----

mmm It does make you wonder why Dooku thought he could take on Yoda yet is terrified of Sidious. Perhaps he never uncovered the true extent of his former master's power?

You think Sidious couldn't ragdoll the shit out of Dooku? That's a pretty cancerous opinion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's evidence that he would lose. That's not evidence that Sidious could ragdoll him...

This is a separate argument from his getting choked, which is what I was focusing on.

-----

mmm It does make you wonder why Dooku thought he could take on Yoda yet is terrified of Sidious. Perhaps he never uncovered the true extent of his former master's power?

Dooku's behavior towards Sidious in general is evidence that Sidious could ragdoll him, beyond the fact that Sidious ragdolled him lol.

It's reaffirmed in Dark Disciple, Dooku's outright pathetic when it comes to the Emperor.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You think Sidious couldn't ragdoll the shit out of Dooku? That's a pretty cancerous opinion.

Nah, I said "Granted I still think Sidious could ragdoll him if he wanted to in a real fight." It's that the specific scence of Sidious choking Dooku isn't enough to believe that.

What are your guys' opinions on Sidious choking Dooku? Was it truly indicative of Sidious's ability to ragdoll anyone he wants? Or was it that Dooku was simply not resisting and lowered his force barriers knowing that it we be considered betrayal by Sidious had he done it?

Well, that's what I was discussing with Tempest, who seems to have backtracked; it can't be demonstrated that Dooku was legitimately helpless rather than just not daring to retaliate.

Nope lol. Much like Caedus with Luke, Dooku was legitimately helpless against Sidious. I was simply saying that if he could have acted in some way to defend himself, he would have, especially in that particular context.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Do we know those cruisers aren't just Jedi star-fighters?

What would Jedi Star-fighters be doing in an ancient Sith hanger, exactly?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's uniquely stupid phrasing on your part.


You've got issues bro. And btw, you're the only one with an issue with what I've said about Vader. Well, you and Quanchi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Of course Vader's the superior pilot.


So then what the heck is your problem with what I've said?


Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's about as relevant to "who's more powerful" as cooking prowess or the ability to play Guitar Hero.




Every time I said that about Vader's power I said ARGUABLY

And if you think Soloing a Rebel Fleet isn't a display of Power, then all I've got left to say is:

facepalm


Originally posted by The_Tempest


They're all Sheev's b1tches.




Again, you have got some serious Sheev issues, given I wasn't singling out Palpatine as Vader's inferior in that respect. Why are you not defending Yoda or Mace against my Vader claim? Why only Sheev?

Hmm I wonder why..

Originally posted by MythLord
What would Jedi Star-fighters be doing in an ancient Sith hanger, exactly?

That's a point.

I don't actually know which people they belong to. Do you have the relevant excerpts?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You've got issues bro. And btw, you're the only one with an issue with what I've said about Vader. Well, you and Quanchi.




So then what the heck is your problem with what I've said?





Every time I said that about Vader's power I said ARGUABLY

And if you think Soloing a Rebel Fleet isn't a display of Power, then all I've got left to say is:

facepalm





Again, you have got some serious Sheev issues, given I wasn't singling out Palpatine as Vader's inferior in that respect. Why are you not defending Yoda or Mace against my Vader claim? Why only Sheev?

Hmm I wonder why..

For the same reason I don't put Han Solo above Yoda and Sheev simply because he's a phenomenal pilot. Because you have to get pretty damn creative with the English language to associate that with "power."

I'm just busting your chops because you've historically struggled with the notion that Sheev would curbstomp most of your favorites. I just like rubbing it in and throwing Sheevism at you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
For the same reason I don't put Han Solo above Yoda and Sheev simply because he's a phenomenal pilot. Because you have to get pretty damn creative with the English language to associate that with "power."


Using another Quanchi argument?

Firstly I don't think Han Solo would actually be a better pilot than either Yoda or Sheev. He'd do well to be on par with Obi-Wan IMO given the advantages the Force gives.

Secondly given Han Solo doesn't actually use the Force to pilot, I'm not sure what that has to do with Power in the Force.

And Lastly, even if somehow Han Solo can pilot better than Sheev or Yoda, they could easily take him out Via Tk even in a dogfight, given Sidious can force choke Dooku from Lightyears away.



Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm just busting your chops because you've historically struggled with the notion that Sheev would curbstomp most of your favorites. I just like rubbing it in and throwing Sheevism at you.


No not really. You just think I struggle with that notion in particular because I've always stuck up for Maul, Dooku and Vader. I used to argue for Dooku and Anakin beating Mace Windu. That doesn't mean I'm anti-Mace, just that I was pro-Dooku/Anakin/Vader.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Using another Quanchi argument?

Firstly I don't think Han Solo would actually be a better pilot than either Yoda or Sheev. He'd do well to be on par with Obi-Wan IMO given the advantages the Force gives.

Secondly given Han Solo doesn't actually use the Force to pilot, I'm not sure what that has to do with Power in the Force.

And Lastly, even if somehow Han Solo can pilot better than Sheev or Yoda, they could easily take him out Via Tk even in a dogfight, given Sidious can force choke Dooku from Lightyears away.






No not really. You just think I struggle with that notion in particular because I've always stuck up for Maul, Dooku and Vader. I used to argue for Dooku and Anakin beating Mace Windu. That doesn't mean I'm anti-Mace, just that I was pro-Dooku/Anakin/Vader.

And yet we have no evidence that canonically they are extraordinary pilots, though I agree that they can probably hold their own if only due to the Force. So your logic would mean Han Solo is "more powerful" than Yoda. But you wouldn't say it because it's a dumb thing to say lol.

I suspect that you say it only to troll quan.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That's a point.

I don't actually know which people they belong to. Do you have the relevant excerpts?

Well, when Auben takes them to the hangar the sequence goes like this:



It's a hangar, in a monastery, inside of a mountain, filled with statues of monsterous creatures, on Korriban. Those are ancient Sith cruisers, to be sure.

Plus the fact that some of the vehicles to Anakin look ancient and new, would suggest that it's not Jedi Starfighters.

Remember, Dooku one-shotted Ventress (alternatively Vos) with lightning

As far as ANH Vader being below Dooku....errr....not sure about that unless purely canon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet we have no evidence that canonically they are extraordinary pilots, though I agree that they can probably hold their own if only due to the Force. So your logic would mean Han Solo is "more powerful" than Yoda. But you wouldn't say it because it's a dumb thing to say lol.

I suspect that you say it only to troll quan.


Well no, because I don't believe Solo could take Yoda, Mace or Sheev in a dogfight, so that's not my logic at all.

Given Vader's supernatural ability to solo a Rebel fleet, if Sheev, Yoda, or Mace can even be Half as effective in a dogfight, then Solo wouldn't stand a prayer. Plus there's always Force choke, so...

And there's plenty of evidence of even all Jedi/Sith in general having supernatural piloting abilities, which I'm sure I don't have to go through.

lol at Yoda trying to pilot a ship

Dark Times Vader collapsed a Cathedral while half-dead, and exerting and a decent amount of his power, just to stay alive.

ANH Vader, would still murk Count.

How large was the cathedral?

Not sure.

We know it was big enough to sport an underground Labyrinth of sorts, and that it took 2-3 days to dig Vader from underneath the collapsed rubble, IIRC.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet we have no evidence that canonically they are extraordinary pilots, though I agree that they can probably hold their own if only due to the Force. So your logic would mean Han Solo is "more powerful" than Yoda. But you wouldn't say it because it's a dumb thing to say lol.

I suspect that you say it only to troll quan.


FYI to make my stance clear, for argument sake say Han Solo could take Savage Opress in a dogfight, I still wouldn't call Solo more powerful than Opress due to how completely out of his league he is in every other department. Plus something like Force choke is a potential danger anywhere really, on the ground, in the air or potentially even in space.



Originally posted by Kurk
lol at Yoda trying to pilot a ship


He has done. S6 TCW. Has his own little Jedi fighter.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
FYI to make my stance clear, for argument sake say Han Solo could take Savage Opress in a dogfight, I still wouldn't call Solo more powerful than Opress due to how completely out of his league he is in every other department. Plus something like Force choke is a potential danger anywhere really.






He has done. S6 TCW. Has his own little Jedi fighter.
Yeah but navigating it and dog-fighting aren't quite the same.

Maul ragdolled Sidious, Dooku can do the same
https://youtu.be/YxrMEQlTMvs?t=1m10s

Only thing Dooku can ragdoll is his sagging balls.

Originally posted by Kurk
Yeah but navigating it and dog-fighting aren't quite the same.




The ship's made to his size and specifications. All Jedi and Sith are trained in using the Force to pilot (and dogfight).

The fact that his Jedi ship has canons is proof enough he is capable of using them.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The ship's made to his size and specifications. All Jedi and Sith are trained in using the Force to pilot (and dogfight).

The fact that his Jedi ship has canons is proof enough he is capable of using them.
All? I didn't know that.

^ Well do you know one whose not? Pretty sure it's a standard part of Jedi training.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nope lol. Much like Caedus with Luke, Dooku was legitimately helpless against Sidious. I was simply saying that if he could have acted in some way to defend himself, he would have, especially in that particular context.

The point is simply that the choking scene unto itself isn't proof of this, because it could also just be Dooku not wanting to fight back (which isn't proof of being in ragdoll territory). The case for ragdolling comes from other sources independent of that sequence.

Anyway, it hardly matters given that we never really know how a Vader vs. Sidious fight would go down either.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The point is simply that the choking scene unto itself isn't proof of this, because it could also just be Dooku not wanting to fight back (which isn't proof of being in ragdoll territory). The case for ragdolling comes from other sources independent of that sequence.

Anyway, it hardly matters given that we never really know how a Vader vs. Sidious fight would go down either.

Nah. I think we've established that if Dooku could have fought back, he would have, especially in that situation. Even reflexively; he's gagging, clawing impotently at his own throat.

Just like Maul fought back when Sidious was torturing him to build up pain tolerance.

I'm sure Dooku would naturally try to resist the choke.

Passively, maybe.

Until "Rebels" wont show Kenobi as far stronger Force user then he was in TCW/ROTS, I'll pick Dooku as a winner.

Vader doesn't has anything, besides paper's showings. He's great until he has to fight in a duel.
He couldn't defeat Starkiller with his TK, couln't beat Kenobi with TK, he couldn't beat Ahsoka with TK... even Dark Woman and some other fodder Jedi.

Unlike Vader, I believe that Palpatine could stomp Marek with his TK (as it was shown in DS ending), Dooku could stomp Kenobi, Ventress.

And Vader will be in disadvantage against lighning.

Except, Vader has stomped Jedi with the Force before, lmao.

Willingness to use the Force, isn't the same as being unable to..

Stomped who? Kento Marek? ; C