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Fight takes place in the Rebuilt Jedi Enclave courtyard. Both in their primes.

I'm much more impressed with Jolee's abilities than Visas losing to a near Force Deaf Exile with a vibroblade.

Visas grows since then, though. Not that her lightsaber skills appear to anything impressive, but I'd wager blocking Nihilus' connection to the Ravager and healing Canderous from mortal injuries in short order are above Jolee's Force showings, no?

Hard to imagine how skilled Visas is. If she managed to beat a HK-series assassin droid, she can probably take down four katarns.

Visas grows and undetermined amount and then loses to Traya. Not exactly an argument on why she should win this.

I'm not deciding who wins, yet. I just brought up two Force showings on her part that are better than Jolee's for counterbalance.

It's not as if Jolee wouldn't be effortlessly crushed by Traya off the Trayus Core, anyway.

Except nothing says she healed Canderous, and she was only able to block Nihilus because of her bond with him, which she messed with, not that it helped much because Nihilus was still winning until he killed himself.

What? In Restored Content, he walks over the mine and falls on the ground, and then tells them to leave him alone. Visas says she can't do that or something and kneels besides him, and they have a brief talk before Canderous stands up again and says "you sounded like Revan" or something.

He clearly gets healed, given that he was convinced he was going to die before and then he stands up without the injured animation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwNQUF2C2vE

And that's how you determine if the Force is used or not? Yeah, that's some ironclad, airtight, bulletproof, unquestionable truth. Aside from that, I believe he gets shocked, not run over a mine, not that it really matters.

According to the actual script, all that happens is she "sees Mandalore wounded" and then talks to him. It makes no comment about healing.

I linked a video above. She explicitly says that she's watched her people die, that Canderous will live and that he has no choice. I'm pretty sure that's an indication of her using the Force to heal him.

Visas, as the Shadow Hand of Darth Nihilus, is the fourth most skilled and powerful Sith in an organization that wiped out tens of thousands of Jedi, and awards its members based on number of individual Jedi kills. Pretty sure that accolade is greater than anything we've ever seen from Jolee Bindo.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
According to the actual script, all that happens is she "sees Mandalore wounded" and then talks to him. It makes no comment about healing.

Right, so Canderous being wounded and telling the others to leave him, which is an indication that he thinks he's not going to make it, and then Visas telling him that he will survive despite his objections, and then him suddenly standing up again with no injury animation means that he wasn't healed?

Given the script didn't say that, I'm inclined to believe she inspired Ordo's will and gave him "the strength" to rise again and ignore the pain.

Ordo lost the will to live and Marr used Revan as a way to give it back.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I linked a video above. She explicitly says that she's watched her people die, that Canderous will live and that he has no choice. I'm pretty sure that's an indication of her using the Force to heal him.
Lol, no it's not. I've seen people die, but I told this one guy he wouldn't and he didn't. Guess I can use the Force.

A Mandalorian (Mandalore, no less) losing the will to live over walking over a mine.

Again, he had no injury animation when he stood back up. So he just magically healed himself?

He didn't walk over a mine. He was injured in the fight with Nihilus. Also, the script makes no note of any injury animation.

The cutscene you referred to isn't canonical. I'm not sure why you are using it to argue your point.

I thought you accepted cut content.

Anyways, it was over a mine in the video I linked above, and I'm pretty sure most videos have it that way. The only different one I've seen is one where Nihilus' red dissipating crap also releases Lightning that strikes Canderous.

I accept what the script states. Mods involving cut-content add additional material not described in the script (the mine, for example), and thus aren't canonical.

Also, regarding there being no injury animation - that's the point. He gets back up and he's suddenly uninjured. That makes no sense unless he was healed.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I accept what the script states. Mods involving cut-content add additional material not described in the script (the mine, for example), and thus aren't canonical.

It doesn't matter what he was wounded by, tbh.

It matters because the basis of your argument is animation from fan-made content.

If he was wounded by Nihilus, that doesn't make a difference. He still gets back up and somehow appears unharmed later.

Nowhere is it noted he is actually unharmed or healed, so there's really no reason to assume he is.

And the fact he later appears unharmed definitively means it was Marr who healed him and not standard medical supplies or bacta?

The point Freshest and I are making is that you're completely assuming with absolutely no basis rooted in any material.

EDIT:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And the fact he later appears unharmed definitively means it was Marr who healed him and not standard medical supplies or bacta?

The point Freshest and I are making is that you're completely assuming with absolutely no basis rooted in any material.

EDIT:

How does he get medical supplies or bacta on the bridge, lol?

But whatever. Back to the thread. Your opinion, Ant?

There's no evidence he was healed by the time they left the bridge.

He could have been healed weeks later. We don't know.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But whatever. Back to the thread. Your opinion, Ant?
They're both trash with absolutely nothing to their name.

I'd side with Bindo because he's black.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no evidence he was healed by the time they left the bridge.

He could have been healed weeks later. We don't know.

The fact that he gets up with no injury animation on the bridge, lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They're both trash with absolutely nothing to their name.

I'd side with Bindo because he's black.

Jolee killed four katarns and beat one of Kun's Jedi converts. And used Beast Control.

Visas has beaten a HK assassin droid and ****ed with Nihilus' bond.

Dude, I stated ten times that the injury animation isn't canonical. It's from fan-made content.

You're debating in circles.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Jolee killed four katarns and beat one of Kun's Jedi converts. And used Beast Control.

Visas has beaten a HK assassin droid and ****ed with Nihilus' bond.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They're both trash with absolutely nothing to their name..

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dude, I stated ten times that the injury animation isn't canonical. It's from cut-content.

You're debating in circles.

You said "he's injured by Nihilus" in the script, yet later, there's no injury animation to accomodate it.

Based on the fan-made content, or the game that didn't have the sequence in it anyway?

The script makes no note of an injury or lack thereof. You're assuming.

Now, this discussion is stupid and it seems we are all agreed Marr is trash, so let's move on.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Based on the fan-made content, or the game that didn't have the sequence in it anyway?

The script makes no note of an injury or lack thereof. You're assuming.

Now, this discussion is stupid and it seems we are all agreed Marr is trash, so let's move on.

Then how did you deduce that he was injured in the fight with Nihilus?

Anyways, if that's the case, we'll move on.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Visas, as the Shadow Hand of Darth Nihilus, is the fourth most skilled and powerful Sith in an organization that wiped out tens of thousands of Jedi, and awards its members based on number of individual Jedi kills. Pretty sure that accolade is greater than anything we've ever seen from Jolee Bindo.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They're both trash with absolutely nothing to their name.

I'd side with Bindo because he's black. Well, Bindo beat his wife, Nayama, who was able to kill a bunch of Jedi before being struck down herself.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Visas, as the Shadow Hand of Darth Nihilus, is the fourth most skilled and powerful Sith in an organization that wiped out tens of thousands of Jedi, and awards its members based on number of individual Jedi kills. Pretty sure that accolade is greater than anything we've ever seen from Jolee Bindo.

I must have missed the place where Visas was called the fourth most powerful or skilled anything. It's probably in the same place you get the rest of this bullshizzle from. I mean, here comes Traya, flat out saying she's a pretender, but AP, and you, can go on ignoring quotes from the source that don't agree with you, you know. Like Traya saying they definitely didn't kill tens of thousands of anything.

As I recall she's said to be greater than all other subordinates in the Triumvirate in her position as Shadow Hand. Kreia says she's a pretender because Visas never really had the mentality of a Sith or truly embraced their teachings. That doesn't make her weak.

You recall wrong. And I guess that's why Traya called them children with lightsabers. Because they never embraced the idea of coming to work on Monday mornings.

Well, the KotORCG claims that Visas is second only to Nihilus amongst the Sith loyal to him, but how many are there and how good are they?

We'll see when we find the quote. And Traya said everyone were children with lightsabers. She's not exactly an objective source on merit.

It's this:

I wonder if Fresh has ever come to the conclusion that things get retconned.

In fairness, most of TOR's retcons relating to KotOR II are done out of blatant ignorance and are hard to stomach. What they did to the Exile and Kreia makes you want to choke babies.

I championed said anger, my friend, I am learning to lose a few battles to win a war however. With acceptance we can see that, though Bioware entirely fails to grasp the concepts of Kotor II, willingly or otherwise. A prime example:

>"The events of the second game took place in the shadows, so not many people know about it three centuries later."
>*Lord Scourge, Hero of Tython, Nariel and a ton of others all reference Kotor2*

What they do give us however, is a surprising amount of wank for Kotor 2 characters.

Is there any other KotOR II wank material that you've come across?

The empire under Vaverone is desperate to gain Nihilus' holocron and learn the Triumvirate's secrets. Nariel, a Jedi Knight, states that the secrets of the Triumvirate can never be learned by the Sith Empire and that stopping Vaverone saved countless lives. If Vaverone gains the holocron, she immediately ascends to becoming a Darth.

Yeah, I've played through that as a Smuggler. Anything else?

Scourge and the Hero make the Exile out to be basically legendary and agree with her abilities to resist the Emperor in the same vein as Revan and the Hero herself.

Not much, admittedly.

I know about Scourge declaring the Exile as one of the greatest heroes, but where did he claim that she could also resist the Emperor in the same/similar way as Revan? That's pretty damn good.

Scourge gets pissed off about Jedi brain-washing, saying the Hero might be young enough to 'cultivate the strength of the Sith'. Hero counters by saying that Revan, the Exile and the Hero herself were all Jedi trained but only they resisted the Emperor, not the Sith. Scourge eventually agrees and says Jedi strengths are different but not lesser.

That's not what I was hoping for, but could I get a link anyway?

https://youtu.be/HNto5fIGMV0

Skip to 3:20.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I wonder if Fresh has ever come to the conclusion that things get retconned.
Yeah, if a sentence from a Drew novel or codex entry, in a datacron that the"Infinite Empire" would have zero chance of making, could retcon everything that came before it, Sirak would have invented Vaapad. I'll take my chances.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, the KotORCG claims that Visas is second only to Nihilus amongst the Sith loyal to him, but how many are there and how good are they?
That's because he's Force bonded with her. It has nothing to do with power, at least not expressed power. There's no quote that ranks Visas even remotely close to Triumvirate, Sion, who are themselves, Sion, relatively unimpressive, Sion,

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There's no quote that ranks Visas even remotely close to Triumvirate, Sion, who are themselves, Sion, relatively unimpressive, Sion,

lol, what?

Sion is ****ing terrible, my dude. Like legit terrible.

I got that. It's just your last couple of phrases are funny.

"Sion, who are themselves"

"Sion,"

Those are interruptions for clarification.