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Caedus is as he was in his final duel with Jaina, ie. missing an arm and just got stabbed through the abdomen.

Can the good Count defeat him in this state?

Round 1: Caedus is distracted as he was against Jaina, though he won't pass up an opportunity to kill Dooku just to warn Tenel Ka as he did against her.

Round 2: He is wounded but not distracted

Round 1: possibly Tyranus
Round 2: Caedus, IMHO. The pain will just make him stronger, which is kind of his MO, but the loss of another arm will present mechanical problems independent of said pain. That being said, he still did very well earlier against a Jaina that I maintain was amped by Luke, and his power in the Force is still superior to Dooku's by a significant extent, and this likely outweighs the injuries.

WTF?
Caedus loses both rounds, KEK.

Caedus is pretty far above Dooku as a duelist.

No, he really isn't.

How do you think peak Vader compares to Dooku as a duelist?

Vader only his slight superior, tbh.


Honestly, I don't see what Caedus has done to supersede that tier significantly. His bouts against Luke is overblown by a bunch, as ILS has pointed out long ago. Luke was wounded to a great extent, he has the environment advantage, yet, he was still going to be killed early own had it not been for him using the Force, and the specific environment, to pull of the sequence.

I mean, I believe Caedus maybe above them, but the gap isn't big enough to where a gutted Caedus with one arm is beating him, KEK.

Caedus can't win either round.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
WTF?
Caedus loses both rounds, KEK.

Tyranus.

Vader was utterly helpless against a rage RotJ Luke to the point of not even being able to stand properly even when Luke wasn't touching him. Somehow I doubt that Luke got to LotF power by getting angry. Caedus may have lost despite his advantages but his performance is still infinitely superior.

And Caedus had trouble with fodder Mado's, while Vader --- before becoming vastly more powerful --- was practically toying with Boba ****ing Fett.

Do you see the flaw with comparing to highly circumstantial showings with each other?

Yeah, I actually agree with DC here, although that's just a shitty low showing from Caedus. That said, an enraged Skywalker is clearly a terrifying prospect. Both times when Anakin was enraged against Dooku, he went from them being almost even to him absolutely manhandling. Luke going from being even with Vader to serving him his ass with fries and sauce is pretty consistent with immense Skywalker rage.

DC, I made my response regarding the Enclave back in that thread, if you haven't seen it.

DS: So by pointing out that characters can be inconsistent, you've been granted the ability to blanket dismiss any comparison of feats?

.

No, I'm pointing comparing two competely different circunstances, then trying judge it by an arbiterary measure is flawed. Hence, the Boba and Mando showings

We have no idea what would be the difference between a rage amped Luke, and a badly injured one from a later era. Especially, given just how incosistent Luke is. The injury he suffered was do to Lumiya....someone he should have been able to stomp without a scratch, all things considered.

He didn't even have a debilitating injury, just a bad knee.

Round 1) Given the Count's well-known and highly skilled use of Dun-Moch, if he can apply it in such a way in which it aids in Caedus' distraction and not detract from it, which I think he can, then Count for a majority.

Round 2) Dooku loses. He is just slightly < a one-armed Caedus and I think good enough to last long enough until Caedus' wounds begin to take a serious affect on his ability to fight. However, he is largely outclassed as far as the force is concerned.

DS And what feats are you looking at that are devoid of circumstances and put Dooku above injured Caedus?

Dooku

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Caedus is pretty far above Dooku as a duelist.

But Jaina isn't.

Hence why I said Dooku could win round 1, although it isn't clear if Caedus would have lost to Jaina had he not dropped his guard to call out to Tenel.

@Vixas, good point about the dun moch, although I'm not sure if Caedus would be fooled in such a manner.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He didn't even have a debilitating injury, just a bad knee.

Umm, no. He also had a chest injury too, tbh.



--- Excerpt from Legacy of the Force: Inferno

Ok, that was from his first fight with Lumiya months(?) ago. It may have affected him, but to suggest that it and a bad knee would put him below his RotJ self is ridiculous. That's forty years of growth in the Force under the guy with the second most potential in galactic history. Vader matched base RotJ Luke and then got utterly destroyed in every capacity by an enraged one; Caedus fought an enraged but moderately injured grandmaster Luke and lost while dishing out some injury. It's not an apt comparison.

And again, what's your metric for comparing them?

.

Under these circumstances I can see Dooku taking it.

Dooku stomps cuz everyone thinks Caedus sucks now.

Dooku takes sabers, Caedus takes force. All out depends :/

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
WTF?
Caedus loses both rounds, KEK.

Originally posted by Trocity
Dooku stomps cuz everyone thinks Caedus sucks now.

Yeah I dunno why. He's above Vader as a Force user and his dueling ability is really high relative to his strength in the Force, seeing as how he definitely did better against Luke in a duel than a Force fight, and Luke himself has a pretty high dueling skill: Force power ratio. So if he's already more powerful than Dooku by a considerable margin, he's likely to win in a duel too.

Originally posted by Trocity
Dooku stomps cuz everyone thinks Caedus sucks now.

Because we are now looking into his actual showing and analyzing them for what it is.

He isn't above Vader as a Force user, and isn't that much better as a duelist -- if, at all. Sure we can luke at his showings against a heavily injured Luke with the environment to bail him out, but why ignore his other less impressive showings?

Why ignore that fact, that Lumiya, was able to contend with Luke twice, even fend him of for a bit when he though he killed Mara and was more blood-lusted than he was against Jacen? So is Lumiya > Vader as well, despite all signs saying phuck no?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
He isn't above Vader as a Force user,

He is, by official statement, and your opinion that publishers don't have creative license over Star Wars is both wrong and arbitrary. To go against that, you'd need strong evidence against the notion - and you haven't provided any.



Yeah, still waiting on your justification for how forty years of growth from the most prodigious combatant and Force user in the mythos is offset by a scar from several months before and a bad knee.



Luke wasn't even that bloodlusted when he fought Lumiya the last time (the earlier ones were circumstantial, Lumiya had hostages, etc.). You'd expect him to be, but he was consciously remaining calm. In either case, this wasn't a "fight" that Lumiya put up beyond lasting for a while because of the reach advantage of her whip; she never got a hit in on Luke, unlike Caedus who put him in a bacta tank.

And actually, think about the mechanics of fighting someone with a light-whip while you have a lightsaber. How, exactly, are you supposed to win that?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah I dunno why. He's above Vader as a Force user and his dueling ability is really high relative to his strength in the Force, seeing as how he definitely did better against Luke in a duel than a Force fight, and Luke himself has a pretty high dueling skill: Force power ratio. So if he's already more powerful than Dooku by a considerable margin, he's likely to win in a duel too.

I disagree, Luke is higher in terms of force powers than he is in dueling. He's hardly as dominating a figure in melee as he is when he actually uses his power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I disagree, Luke is higher in terms of force powers than he is in dueling. He's hardly as dominating a figure in melee as he is when he actually uses his power.

I'm basing this off of his performances against Vader and Wankatine, but now that I think of it, it may be true that this ratio was skewed towards dueling early in his career but flipped a little post-NJO. Regardless, he hasn't declined as a duelist - he's still massively beyond Vader seeing as how he was matching him four decades before his prime.

Yet he wasn't massively enough beyond people like Desaan or Lumiya to own them.

Novel blurbs aren't canon. If so, provide evidence that explicitly says so.



1. You can't properly measure just how powerful the rage amp was that Luke received. For all we know, he could have been tapping into a significant amount of his potential to come, in that one specific instance.

2. It's also worth noting, that Vader wasn't going 100% in his duel with Luke --- sources have indicated his resolved wavered, and he was emotionally conflicted.

3. Was it really months before? If so, Luke scar happened months before, than why did it take him so long to heal from it? Even so, He was still majorly affected by it, given after the hit was delivered at that spit, his breathing was vitiate significantly.

Again, your arbitrary bullshit needs actual backing. Prove a heavily hindered Luke in a era where he has a penchant for jobbing is above a rage amp Luke that was holding zero back.

@Neph: Desann was empowered by the Valley of the Jedi and Lumiya is a pretty capable duelist with a lightwhip that's pretty tough to deal with (how do you, exactly?).

I don't think he was at his best against Lumiya; he was emotionally wrought from Mara's death, but it's not like he was using his anger in a dark side way, so it was just weighing him down. Plus it doesn't seem like he was interested in killing her quickly; for example, before the fight he had the opportunity to just shoot her down but explicitly mused that he wanted to confront her ceremoniously. Then when she falls he catches her just to tell her "I'd never let you fall" and decapitate her in a long motion. It wasn't like with Jacen when he just leaped at him to kill him.

That same Desann that was empowered by the Valley of the Jedi, was owned by Kyle Katarn, so yeah.

Shit excuse.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Novel blurbs aren't canon. If so, provide evidence that explicitly says so.


We know that the novel is canon. It's up to you to take away a part of the novel as an exception. I mean this is like asking me for proof that page 239 of a book is canon too.



We can't know many things for sure, but we can think about what's reasonable, and it's not reasonable that he got to his LotF level. A direct implication of this is that Palpatine didn't seem worried that he was gonna die too. Likewise, even if he had, he presumably didn't magically gain his later technical skill and general mastery.



Sources themselves are conflicted on this, but it's doubtful that Vader wasn't going all-out when he was getting battered down and utterly destroyed.



I mean, it was his first fight with Lumiya, so I'm assuming it was a decent time ago but I forgot exactly when.

Yeah, he hit the wound and it opened it - but that doesn't to me suggest that he was nerfed back to his RotJ level. The Force is the strongest predictor of your success in a duel - 40 years of growth is going to outdo some flesh wounds. And right before, Luke was piloting his ship and Jaina was amazed at how awesome he was, not thinking that he was injured. Luke pinned Jacen to his chair in the same novel - again, no indication that the most important element, his strength in the Force, was weakened.



The null hypothesis is just as unsupported and holds no advantage here; you still haven't justified your claim that two flesh wounds count as him being "heavily hindered" when he's healed from near-death injuries within hours and is more powerful in the Force than Palpatine, and when just minutes before Jaina saw him flying his Stealth X and concluded that Luke had only ever showed her a fraction of his power he was so good, not that he was weakened, lmfao.

Desann wasn't amped when he fought Luke iirc.

Gotta quote to back this up?


Still not an excuse for Lumiya to contend as good as she did. I mean, she put a long lasting scar on his chest, lmao.



I thought she did land hits? How was his knee injured against Caedus then?

Fair enough, but the environment played a huge pat in him hurting Luke. Before Caedus latched on too a Yuuzhan Vong device hanging in the chamber, to escape from Luke, the former had beaten his guard down, and was going to finish his just seconds into the battle. In other words, without the environment being in Jacen's favor, he would have lost in a very short order.



As you would say, a "far inferior" Luke did just after RotJ. You would expect Luke with 40 years of growth to be capable of doing it much more easier. But all evidence point to that not being the case.

I think I tallied their respective hits; Luke got in like five lightsaber wounds and five physical blows, while Caedus managed to land four physical wounds, around half targeted at Luke's injuries, and then a few which were due to environmental manipulation and thus discounted (Caedus knew where the Vong traps were and I think had even prepped them). So Luke was clearly winning pretty solidly, but it's not like Caedus wasn't putting up a fight.

Originally posted by Trocity
Dooku stomps cuz everyone thinks Caedus sucks now.

Well he does suck. And just to put the final nail in the coffin:



When Ant's respect thread comes out, don't get me wrong, you will see a lot of feats . More feats than any single respect thread will ever had contained, and from a nice wealth of sources. What you will also find, however, is that the majority of Jacen's feats have very little to do with combat.



Again, until championing the name Caedus, this was Jacen's philosophy. Yet even as a sith, we hardly see much destructive potential. He's not killing other Force users with lightning, much like Dooku did to Ventress, and he's not seen 'ragdolling', well... pretty much anyone worth their salt, like Dooku does to Kenobi. Jacen was on the loosing end of a duel to Kyle Katarn accompanied by three inexperienced neophytes. While Dooku was holding off Anakin and Obi-wan, albeit on the loosing side. So what is he excelling at that Dooku isn't?



He was an expert at the more esoteric muses of the Force. These were subtle powers that allowed him to channel his inner energies to empathise with creatures, other people and even large Force entities. These are the talents Jacen spent his years refining. Not Saber combat, Force Lightning or Dark powers of destruction. His preferred lightsaber form is unknown, but I'm almost certain it would be the diplomats form, Niman, and with it's purest philosophy in mind. While on the other hand, Dooku has spent 80 decades refining a form that specialises in lightsaber duelling. I hope Ant can vouch for me on this one, but we'll all see the truth when Caedus' respect thread is ready for viewing. The fact is, Caedus is not the near Sidious powerhouse we once thought he'd be, not even close.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Desann wasn't amped when he fought Luke iirc.

He is. When Luke and Kyle meet up before Luke runs into Desann, Luke warns Kyle not to fight him because he's been enhanced by the Valley.

mmm

I need to replay the game somtime.

So in the end Desann was double amped?