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I've been wanting to make a thread where Khan has a legit chance of competing against a SW character for a while, thus what better matchup than this one here?

Below is the scenario


Conditions:

-Weapons, previously in the droids' possession, are scattered all throughout the room. Blasters, blaster rifles, a few lightsabers and Khan's weapons. Either combatant can try and retrieve their weapon of choice at their peril, but in a fight such as this, stopping to retrieve a weapon could allow the other combatant the opening they need to finish the battle.

-Crashing the ship and/or leaving the bridge is not an option.

-No outside help is permitted.

-Movie incarnations only.

-This is Khan from Into the Darkness

Who wins?

Khan guns this bitchmade down.

Khan wrecks another Star Wars character. He leaves this thread in search of Palpatine to bring down this cowardly and despicable geriatric.

Have got no opinion on who wins, but I think I'll argue for Grievous anyway!

General Grievous is an accomplished swordsman. Even by the standards of ROTS, he had bested numerous Jedi in the past, as his lightsaber collection indicates. Jedi are individuals with super human abilities, both in perception and reflexes.

Khan has demonstrated to us nothing that would indicate he could keep up with weapons moving at the speed shown here: https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=39

There, we see Grievous moving lightsabers much faster than we see Spock swinging his fist, which Khan illustrates a difficulty time in dodging: https://youtu.be/vhRzfg3zLbA?t=41

Thus, it stands to reason that were Grievous to perform a similar assault either with an electrostaff or a discarded lightsaber in the room, Khan would be vanquished without a moment's notice. Based on the conditions provided in the OP, this is precisely how the battle would go. Grievious would give Khan no time to find his personal weapons and would quickly eliminate him perhaps with greater ease than the legions of Jedi he has slain.

And that'll do it for now!

What the heck? Grievous stomps. He's way too fast and agile for Khan.

Not really, he got owned by a regular blaster.

Khans Ship wrecking gun owns him.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Not really, he got owned by a regular blaster.

Khans Ship wrecking gun owns him. Kenobi had range and surprise as his assets when that happened. Khan could theoretically attain both assets in this encounter, but it's highly unlikely. I submit that Grievous mows him down before he tries!

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Have got no opinion on who wins, but I think I'll argue for Grievous anyway!

General Grievous is an accomplished swordsman. Even by the standards of ROTS, he had bested numerous Jedi in the past, as his lightsaber collection indicates. Jedi are individuals with super human abilities, both in perception and reflexes.

Khan has demonstrated to us nothing that would indicate he could keep up with weapons moving at the speed shown here: https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=39

There, we see Grievous moving lightsabers much faster than we see Spock swinging his fist, which Khan illustrates a difficulty time in dodging: https://youtu.be/vhRzfg3zLbA?t=41

Thus, it stands to reason that were Grievous to perform a similar assault either with an electrostaff or a discarded lightsaber in the room, Khan would be vanquished without a moment's notice. Based on the conditions provided in the OP, this is precisely how the battle would go. Grievious would give Khan no time to find his personal weapons and would quickly eliminate him perhaps with greater ease than the legions of Jedi he has slain.

And that'll do it for now! So what ? Kenobi was fast enough to strike Grievous as well and even see the weakness behind chest plate.

Once Khan grabs a blaster or his weapons this is done and over. We see how slowly Grievous closed in on Kenobi just hanging on a ledge. Wasn't fast at all. Quit ignoring the evidence you troll.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Not really, he got owned by a regular blaster.

Khans Ship wrecking gun owns him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So what ? Kenobi was fast enough to strike Grievous Kenobi, like all Jedi, has some form of precognition. This is how he is also capable of deflecting blaster fire, how Luke is capable of deflecting blaster fire blind folded and how Luke is able to fire the photo torpedos into the correct exhaust port on the Death Star without using his targeting computer. So of course Kenobi can react to that speed despite being incapable of moving at such speeds himself. The force guides him.

We look back to Khan. Khan is utterly unable to avoid Spock's punches, which are demonstrably slower. Khan has no form of precognition, so the argument in regards to speed remains unscathed.

While we're at it, I'll add an argument on the basis of skill. Observe this part of the Spock vs Khan battle. https://youtu.be/rWUDKY7E8ok?t=55 . At the 56 second mark, Khan throws a highly telegraphed hay-maker. One Spock effortlessly avoids. Telegraphed haymakers of this level are the kind even beginner boxers know better than to use in a fight and yet Khan doesn't hesitate to throw one. Perhaps 23rd century martial arts are viable in the 23rd century, but against any semi-competent combatant, much less General Grievous, Khan's fighting skills would prove untenable.

This is true. Unfortunately, Kenobi was able last long enough against Grievous to make use of this weakness. The same will not be said for Khan.

Khan will never get the opportunity to grab a blaster or his weapons. I provided scenes from both films to observe. Grievous can move his weapons far faster than Spock can throw punches. Punches Khan eats quite a few of.

Nah, we can do without personal attacks. Let me see some counter-arguments.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Kenobi, like all Jedi, has some form of precognition. This is how he is also capable of deflecting blaster fire, how Luke is capable of deflecting blaster fire blind folded and how Luke is able to fire the photo torpedos into the correct exhaust port on the Death Star without using his targetting computer. So of course Kenobi can react to that speed despite being incapable of moving at such speeds himself.

We look back to Khan. Khan is utterly unable to avoid Spock's punches, which are demonstrably slower. Khan has no form of precognition, so the argument in regards to speed remains unscathed.


While we're at it, I'll add an argument on the basis skill. Observe this part of the Spock vs Khan battle. https://youtu.be/rWUDKY7E8ok?t=55 . At the 56 second mark, Khan throws a highly telegraphed hay-maker. One Spock effortlessly avoids. Telegraphed haymakers of this level are the kind even beginner boxers know better than to use in a fight and yet Khan doesn't hesitate to throw one. Perhaps 23rd century martial arts are viable in the 23rd century, but against any semi-competent combatant, much less General Grievous, Khan's fighting skills would prove untenable.

This is true. Unfortunately, Kenobi was able last long enough against Grievous to make use of this weakness. The same cannot be said for Khan.

Khan will never get the opportunity to grab a blast or his weapons. I provided scenes from both films to observe. Grievous can move his weapons far faster than Spock can throw punches. Punches Khan eats quite a few of.

Nah, we can do without personal attacks. Let me see some counter-arguments. So what ? We see how slowly Grievous reacted in movement and we know Kenobi is a superior swordsman so that's why he quickly retreated from the light saber duel after he lost two hands.

Ok let's look at precognition and how Kenobi fares in close proximity.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMZdrUx8eM

Despite precognition he can't seem to get his saber back or avoid that head butt. He didn't even beat Jango. Jango doesn't have super speed or precognition but he did better than Grievous. See you're a disingenuous Star Wars debater trying to compare apples to oranges.

You're ignoring that Khan just crash landed on earth, sprinted through the city, and still came out on top against Spock. He resisted two nerve pinches and was about to crush his skull in their one on one confrontation. Kenobi struggled with a guy weighed down by body armor and looked sloppy as hell and despite having jedis powers was unable to hold an advantage over Jango Fett.

I have exposed your double standards and noted how slow Grievous was in closing the distance to a Kenobi who simply was holding on for dear life and unable to move himself.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Have got no opinion on who wins, but I think I'll argue for Grievous anyway!

And that'll do it for now!

You just admitted basically made a thread, then said you have no opinion on who wins and then say grievous wins.

And you expect anyone here to take you serious?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You just admitted basically made a thread, then said you have no opinion on who wins and then say grievous wins.

And you expect anyone here to take you serious? Star Wars debater sock who won't take me on directly under the primary account but instead sought me out via sock.

Good rebuttal! Now for my riposte!
Originally posted by quanchi112
So what ? We see how slowly Grievous reacted in movement and we know Kenobi is a superior swordsman so that's why he quickly retreated from the light saber duel after he lost two hands. You're also leaving out Kenobi's TK. As the confident Grievous was getting the upper hand in the sword duel, Kenobi force pushed him. It was only then that he fled https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=113

I'm not certain what you mean by Grievous slowly reacting in movement. Feel free to clarify, but the way he spun those sabers at the beginning was quiet fast. It looked as if Grievous had lightsaber ceiling fans in his possession. How exactly does Khan counter such movement and do you have anything in the "Into the Darkness" film that would indicate he can?

This is a good argument to use against who try to make SW characters out to be far more powerful than they were ever intended to be. Still, it will do you no good here since I'm not suggesting Kenobi or any of these characters is omniscient or omnipotent. That's all your video goes to disprove.

The precognition these Jedi have certainly isn't perfect. How else would a non-force wielder like Grievous ever kill so many Jedi otherwise? How else would Jango Fett have been able to headbutt Kenobi? That being said, look at the other feats Kenobi performed in the video you've provided. Kenobi avoids getting blown up by a nigh-point blank rocket, avoids getting killed by blaster fire from Jango Fett's ship, jump kicks a moving Jango Fett out of the sky.

You bring up the headbutt for a reason. That's all Jango cleanly lands. Everything else gets blocked or avoided. Thus, if we were to give a Jedi's precognition a numerical rating as far as reliability is concerned, I would concede that that number isn't 10/10, but you'd have to also agree that it isn't 0/10 either. Using your video as a guide, 9/10 seems appropriate.

To say he did better than Grievous is demonstrably false. Jango got in one clean blow. Grievous got in 6. Moreover, Jango had a more reliable means of escape than Grievous did.

Nah, I'm not really a Star Wars debater. Just a debater. Khan did just crash land on earth, but if we take other scenes into account, such as his attack on the vengeance, his movement speed isn't notably different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuK_LBXE9_o . Thus, it stands to reason that the film makers and/or screenplayer writers did not intend to suggest that he was significantly impaired during his bout with Spock. If anything, his accelerated healing probably brought him back to at least near-100%.

That and there's still his questionable combat skills. Why throw telegraphed haymakers like the one I pointed out? In that particular part of the fight, there were far more efficient options Khan could have taken. A simple sleeper hold would have perhaps won him the battle then and there. Instead, he winds up his fist in an obvious fashion, giving Spock more than enough time to recover, dodge and eventually land a vulcan nerve pinch. 23rd century standards of engagement? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it tenable against combatants in other mediums, much less against someone as fast as General Grievous. A telegraphed haymaker will be the end of his life in this scenario.

And I have agreed that should Khan be able to make the fight progress this far, he will have the same opportunity Kenobi had. However, as it stands, Khan will be cut down during the opening stage of the battle as he has no counter to Grievous' devastating speed.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You just admitted basically made a thread, then said you have no opinion on who wins and then say grievous wins.I did competitive debate all through high school and parts of college. You'll forgive me if I have the means and desire to debate subjects I have no opinion on.
Quite the contrary. I would be most remorseful if you took a subject like 'which fictional character would win a fight' too seriously.

But that's all personal nonsense. If you'd like to contribute, do so by all means. If not, feel free to quietly observe.

Khan wins, its really that simple.

Booleg gun > blaster.

It is your forum, but when you think about it, it's my Internet. So I'm kind of gonna have to ask you to bow your head in reverence when glancing upon any of my posts and pray that I might bestow you with a plentiful harvest.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
It is your forum, but when you think about it, it's my Internet. So I'm kind of gonna have to bow my head in reverence when glancing upon any of your posts and pray that I might bestow you with a plentiful harvest.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Good rebuttal! Now for my riposte!
You're also leaving out Kenobi's TK. As the confident Grievous was getting the upper hand in the sword duel, Kenobi force pushed him. It was only then that he fled https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=113

I'm not certain what you mean by Grievous slowly reacting in movement. Feel free to clarify, but the way he spun those sabers at the beginning was quiet fast. It looked as if Grievous had lightsaber ceiling fans in his possession. How exactly does Khan counter such movement and do you have anything in the "Into the Darkness" film that would indicate he can?

This is a good argument to use against who try to make SW characters out to be far more powerful than they were ever intended to be. Still, it will do you no good here since I'm not suggesting Kenobi or any of these characters is omniscient or omnipotent. That's all your video goes to disprove.

The precognition these Jedi have certainly isn't perfect. How else would a non-force wielder like Grievous ever kill so many Jedi otherwise? How else would Jango Fett have been able to headbutt Kenobi? That being said, look at the other feats Kenobi performed in the video you've provided. Kenobi avoids getting blown up by a nigh-point blank rocket, avoids getting killed by blaster fire from Jango Fett's ship, jump kicks a moving Jango Fett out of the sky.

You bring up the headbutt for a reason. That's all Jango cleanly lands. Everything else gets blocked or avoided. Thus, if we were to give a Jedi's precognition a numerical rating as far as reliability is concerned, I would concede that that number isn't 10/10, but you'd have to also agree that it isn't 0/10 either. Using your video as a guide, 9/10 seems appropriate.

To say he did better than Grievous is demonstrably false. Jango got in one clean blow. Grievous got in 6. Moreover, Jango had a more reliable means of escape than Grievous did.

Nah, I'm not really a Star Wars debater. Just a debater. Khan did just crash land on earth, but if we take other scenes into account, such as his attack on the vengeance, his movement speed isn't notably different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuK_LBXE9_o . Thus, it stands to reason that the film makers and/or screenplayer writers did not intend to suggest that he was significantly impaired during his bout with Spock. If anything, his accelerated healing probably brought him back to at least near-100%.

That and there's still his questionable combat skills. Why throw telegraphed haymakers like the one I pointed out? In that particular part of the fight, there were far more efficient options Khan could have taken. A simple sleeper hold would have perhaps won him the battle then and there. Instead, he winds up his fist in an obvious fashion, giving Spock more than enough time to recover, dodge and eventually land a vulcan nerve pinch. 23rd century standards of engagement? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it tenable against combatants in other mediums, much less against someone as fast as General Grievous. A telegraphed haymaker will be the end of his life in this scenario.

And I have agreed that should Khan be able to make the fight progress this far, he will have the same opportunity Kenobi had. However, as it stands, Khan will be cut down during the opening stage of the battle as he has no counter to Grievous' devastating speed. Kenobi only brought Tk into play after the clones showed up and Grievous held no advantage. Conversely despite a four to one light saber advantage he lost two hands and didn't land one critical hit.

If you time the sequence beginning when he starts his hand spinning to closing the distance to Kenobi it's well over five seconds which isn't fast at all. In fact it's precisely the opposite. When Grievous makes his cowardly exit he runs up to a mobile circular Star Wars vehicle to get him out of the hot water he had gotten himself into. He didn't do it under his own mobility.

Khan would gun him down before he closes the distance as supported by the plus five seconds at the very least it takes for him to close the distance with the hand twirl. That's supported by Khan's feats and by the real time it took Grievous to pull his own feat off. You see you change change the evidence nor do your exaggerations work.

We later see Kenobi and his lackluster strength disarm Grievous while he's riding his vehicle with the double edged staff. We later ironically see Grievous in hand to hand combat miss two haymakers against Kenobi. Irony for the win!!

Precognition is something you can't prove and in a one on one fight the guy with the ability fails to beat the human without it. Irony again for the win.

Jedi rely on their skill so Grievous obviously kills weaker Jedi than Kenobi. How is this hard to grasp ? Someone with Kenobi level powers and reactions was able to kill Grievous yet he was unable to bring Jango Fett in.

The rocket wasn't aimed directly onto Kenobi just his vicinity as we see him not move out of the way or take any measures to protect himself. He just gets blown back by the force of the exlposion. We also see Boba can't even see above the window and just fires again near Kenobi. Kenobi just gets flung backwards again. You see I am accurate in the details but you exaggerate as all fanboys do.

Jango also catches Kenobi's kick and flips him backward. They both clearly were in a fight amongst peers and Jango was able to perceive and react to Kenobi's attacks in a manner which put in an advantage which allowed him to escape. Kenobi tried reacquiring the light saber but Jango was too quick with his skills as a bounty hunter to prevent that from occurring.

The fight ended in a stalemate. Kenobi's attacks made no lasting damage and were of no significance. So based off this its s fifty fifty fight against a highly skilled opponent of Jango's level. Unlucky for Kenobi Khan is stronger, has better feats, has better skill, and more powerful weaponry.

Grievous died. He lost two hands also very quickly. Jango wasn't ever defeated nor did he lose any body parts.

Why did the cut remain then ? He didn't just crash land he sprinted throughout the city but in Star Wars we see count Dooku tire in a fight that lasted less than three minutes.

Khan still prevailed. Grievous missed two punches as well and lost the fight. So ironic you rant and rave about two missed punches when Grievous himself missed two punches in close proximity.

Why ? Kenobi hurt himself by kicking Grievous and wasn't defeated. Kenobi was sloppy as hell and even injured himself by foolishly kicking the armor yet was able to avoid any fatal strokes from Grievous. He also took direct hits and wasn't critically injured at all.

Closing speed my ass. We see two examples of the fight against Kenobi that he closed very, very, very slowly. Evidence>>>your bias.

Kirk said it best... KHANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Concession accepted. Ooookay. Why did you edit your post?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Not really, he got owned by a regular blaster.

Khans Ship wrecking gun owns him.


After Kenobi pulled his chest open to expose his heart. Khan also got owned by a regular phaser.

Khan isn't holding his wrecking gun according to the OP. But it's in the arena. So it's gonna come down to whose faster.

Khan is an enhanced super solider and can run extreamly fast.

Pulling the chest piece off really makes no difference to the booleg gun.

If Khan is unarmed at the start of the battle, then so is Grevious.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Kenobi only brought Tk into play after the clones showed up and Grievous held no advantage. Conversely despite a four to one light saber advantage he lost two hands and didn't land one critical hit. The clones did not contribute to the fight though and Grievous was pushing Kenobi back. If anything, Grievous forced him to use TK, despite having lost two of his limbs and despite facing an opponent with some form of precognition, which as we've learned from your example with Jango Fett, is a very effective advantage for a Jedi to have. Grievous did well despite this.

You are using a strawman argument though. My argument was that the speed at which Grievous swung his sabers was faster, not the speed at which he menacingly approached Kenobi while swinging said sabers. Am I to assume that you agree that Khan doesn't have the means to contend with Grievous directly in any fashion similar to the way Kenobi did?

You're correct that Grievous did cowardly exit on his mobile circular vehicle (have no idea what it's called), but this is a point made devoid of context. First, he had just been hit by an attack that sent him flying to the other side of the room. He had no means of dealing with such an attack again, thus getting out of the room as soon as possible was the only logical course of action. The mobile vehicle would certainly be faster than any effort to leave on foot. Second, there was an entire room of clone troopers ready to assist Kenobi. All the more reason to escape in the fashion. Either way, I don't see how his method of escape detracts from his overall mobility, especially when locked in combat with someone such as Khan. Someone who lacks both of the aforementioned advantages Kenobi possessed.


As Khan would say, let us play this out logically. Make sure to reread the conditions I described in the scenario in the OP as they are crucial here. If we're go by your argument, you're saying Khan drops his electro staff, looks around the bridge (which is a spacious room, mind you), then goes to pick up a gun so that he may gun Grievous down with. That's at least three different courses of action to take. Meanwhile, Grievous stands across Khan ready to kill and with one move no less. We've already seen that he can move much faster than Spock. How, pray tell, does Khan avoid getting tagged in order to pull of the strategy you're referring to?

Kenobi was mounted to a giant lizard iguana. Certainly sturdier than some weird metal spinny thing. Grievous throws two haymakers, but both of them land: The first one: https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=203 . The second: https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=215


Precognition has been explained since the very first film in the series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X69NCLxwLEY
https://youtu.be/DOFgFAcGHQc?t=120

We have no more reason to disregard it than we do the mechanics of teleportation in Star Trek. Are we to assume that Spock wasn't beamed down near Khan at light speed because no one said he was?

Jedi rely on their skill, but the force guides them to some extent. Precognition. If you are proposing Obi wan wasn't being guided by the force during his encounter with Jango Fett or Grievous, I welcome the proposition provided you can demonstrate that it is the case.

Are we watching the same fight here?

First blast: https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM?t=33

We can clearly see Obi-wan within the blast radius, but he comes out unscathed. No burns on his clothes or anything! All no sign of injury from the concussive force.

Second blast: https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM?t=41

Again, point blank within the blast radius. No signs of burns, no signs of injury, no signs of effect from the concussive force.

What in-universe explanation do you have for this?


No one is denying that Jango had skill. The issue here is Obi-wan's precognition. You have attempted to downplay or perhaps argue that it is non-existant based on their fight. I've dismantled this argument simply by pointing out that Obi-wan's precognition is imperfect, but still present nonetheless.

You talk about the kick Jango catches and flips back (crappy fight choreography just like telegraphed punches Spock vs Khan for the record, but we're sticking to in-universe explanations here ), but I'm not seeing what you're referring to. https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM?t=53 . Jango catches the kick, but we clearly see Obiwan kicking himself out of it and staggering Jango in the process, cancel and then chain combo into another ground kick. Pause at 53.5.

Again, we must be watching different versions of the fight here. Jango flees, gets in his ship and flies away: https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM?t=162 . Obi-wan is left standing around clamoring for more. He subsequently throws a tracking device on Jango's ship.


I don't mind the bravado, quan, but c'mon man! If you're gonna accuse me of disregarding details, you should at least be a little more consistent. Jango fled the fight. We see it clearly. How is that not a loss?

The cut remained because he hadn't fully healed. Even still, that doesn't alter the fact that there's no noticeable difference between his movements and agility on the vengeance versus his movements and agility versus Spock and that's all we're concerned with here. If the screenplayer writer wanted to demonstrate that Khan was notably weakened, it would've been easy to do so (i.e. Kylo Ren punching the area he was injured at by Chewie in TFA).

I addressed the haymakers Grievious threw. He landed them just fine. He did miss several punches, but I think you missed the point. My criticism in regards to Khan wasn't that he missed punches, but that he missed punches he had no business throwing in the first place. As we see during the fight, Spock punished him for this the way even a novice boxer would. A more skilled combatant wouldn't have wasted the opportunity Khan did. There's no need to wind up your fist like that when a normal straight right would've sufficed.

I agree 100% on Kenobi's foolish kicking and him taking direct hits without being critically injured, but don't really see how that advances your argument, especially considering the trap you just laid for yourself in inadvertently suggesting that Obi wan tanked the concussive force of the blasts he got caught in during his battle with Jango. But we'll get to that in the next post!

Khan mows him down. Grevous dies easier then before.

Precognition doesn't matter nor did it matter in the Jango fight since he couldn't sense being disarmed, his kick caught and reversed, nor could he see that head butt coming prior to impact. Kenobi's primary weapon is a laser sword Khan's isn't so this is very irrelevant to a fight between the two. Make relevant points, sport. You also can't prove exactly where and when he used precognition. It's just a vague ability fanboys reach for in a debate.

Well he can swing his light sabers quickly but he can't close quickly. Khan can run or move faster than how quickly he approaches and closes the distance. This isn't a battle of quick hand movement. Khan will seek to gain the tactical advantage which means arming with his own weaponry and shooting him as quickly as possible. He isn't Kenobi nor does he ever use light sabers so quit using irrelevant examples of the two engaging each other with laser swords.

We see when they are in the same room later Kenobi doesn't use this attack. It's about overwhelming your opponent and making them react according to the fight you can dictate the tempo. Jango dictated the tempo while Grievous did not. There was also an entire room of droids and no one was engaging Grievous yet. Grievous didn't like his chances and fled like a dog. He was unsuccessful in escaping.


Kenobi didn't use his force powers when in close proximity later in the fight. He could have tk force pushed him. He didn't. Instead he moronically killed the cyborg and hurt himself. Yes, unlike Kenobi the idiot Khan would destroy him in a much more efficient and quick manner.

Why would Khan seek to engage him physically if he didn't have to. Khan can use weapons in combat in close proximity as evidenced by his use of blades in the Klingon scene but why engage a cyborg in hand to hand unless you're forced to. It was very much the same with Kenobi. Kenobi managed to survive and he doesn't have the cellular regeneration nor does he have the strength of Khan. Based off what does Grievous kill Khan in one move ? He didn't display the speed or skill in a hand to hand fight that Spock did. We see he was unable to best Kenobi who doesn't possess hand to hand skill comparable to Khan. The same way Kenobi dodged his attacks he moves. What punches did Grievous dodge ?

He also missed two punches. He might have landed punches but so did Khan against Spock.

Your double standards are nauseating. The only thing your want to say is he can land haymakers and not significantly hurt a fleshy human being. Pa---------thetic.

You need to prove when the precognition was used not that it exists. Time stamp when the precognition was used and back it with definitive proof otherwise it's speculating.


You didn't understand me properly but the difference is I can prove when someone is transported down you can't prove when precognition was used. Catching on ?

You can't prove any of this speculative nonsense about the force guiding anything. We see Kenobi survives against Jango but another Jedi gunned down due to less skill. Skill varies as none of the Jedi embody the force. Yoda the most powerful Jedi ironically was hit by a force lightning attack after the guy warned him of said attack prior to. Yeah, I can cite examples of even more powerful Jedi struck by obvious attacks which took multiple seconds.

Kylo even states the quicker they apprehend Rey the better since the more time to hone the force the greater the skill becomes. It's like anything else the more you practice the better you are. How is common sense so hard to grasp ? Like anything any human being can practice since the dawn of time we see professionals, amateurs, etc. separating the varying degrees of skill. Same with the Jedi you biased little fanboy.

The blast doesn't hit him directly. Do you believe it did and he became invulnerable ? The Jedi can't take blaster bolts they inflict damage when they strike flesh. The same goes with this missile save it didn't hit him. When did any fire hit him ? It didn't so why burn when fire doesn't touch your clothes.

Same thing. It didn't hit him directly. When did any fire touch his clothing ? Yes, the concussive force drove him back. That's all.

If it's imperfect which I agree than what's your point. You can't even prove when precognition is used. Not one single example. I can give examples of when someone is fighting similarly to Spock and striking and holding their own against someone with this ability. it looks like the precognition couldn't give Kenobi enough of an advantage to win against Jango so why does it even matter in this thread. Grievous doesn't even have precognition.



No, we see him catching and flipping Kenobi back. Quit lying about what we do see. So I have proven not only can a guy with precognition be stalemated by someone with skill but that it isn't relevant to Grievous since he can't connect to the force.

Jango was always trying to leave. Kenobi was always trying to bring him in so he failed in his objective. That is called a stalemate. The ironic thing is Grievous failed at escaping so it's directly comparable. Jango proved himself superior to Grievous in direct comparison against Kenobi.

Grievous tried to flee. He failed. Jango didn't lose any body parts and did what grievous failed to do. Grievous initially wanted to fight whereas Jango only did so because he felt he had to in that situation.

So if he hadn't fully healed he did suffer damage from the crash. I could post a video in which in the canon clone wars series Kenobi passes out after crashing trying to get to Maul showing he just doesn't compare to Khan. Kylo's movements weren't affected either if you wa t to look at it that way. He was still injured as evidenced by the blood. The way he swung his Lightsaber he didn't look slow or fatigued at all. You're dishonest at every turn. Kylo bled but based off your own logic his movements didn't change or lessen at all.

So according to you Grievous' haymakers don't even damage Kenobi that much at all.

He also missed two punches. Khan missed two punches. Khan won the fight whereas Grievous died. Says you. Your opinion doesn't change the facts. The one on one fight ended with him about to crush his skull before backup arrived and had Spock in a position he was unable to free himself from. Spock didn't best him. Grievous landed two haymakers according to you and he didn't ko Kenobi. He also missed punches. He also had to close the distance to kill him but was unable to do so before Kenobi used the force to retrieve a weapon and easily kill him at that point. Results matter not your skewed and nauseating double standards.

The blast never directly touched him. The force pushed him back. If someone is around when Hulk and Iron Man's fists clash and the concussive force breaks the glass that doesn't mean the glass withstood anywhere near the force their fists did in direct impact. You're an idiot.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Khan mows him down. Grevous dies easier then before.

This isn't even a matchup for Khan. He easily mows him down and only a Star Wars fanatic imploring double standards would even dare hypothesize otherwise.

Khan one shots.

He already ran off after he realized how stupid this thread was. Kenobi with no force usage or lightsaber, beat him with a blaster

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
He already ran off after he realized how stupid this thread was. Kenobi with no force usage or lightsaber, beat him with a blaster

Khan gets the hands job of a lifetime with both balls tickled before meat sabering this shiny loser

But as I've pointed out, precognition isn't 100% reliable. It is nonetheless present, per the excerpts I presented from A New Hope and certainly goes to explain some of Obi-Wan superhuman feats both during his battle with Jango and General Grievious. Saying I can't prove exactly where and when he used precognition is weak; it's no different than saying one can't prove where and when starships are beaming people back up to their ships at lightspeed, since we aren't told they're moving at lightspeed each and every time. Both concepts have been established and explained from the geto.

Let us remember the whole purpose of the precognition discussion. You were attempting to downplay Grievous' speed by pointing out that Obi-wan countered Grievous' speedy saber swings. I pointed out that Obi-wan, having precognition, has a means of dealing with things faster than him. You cited Obi-Wan's jango fett fight, pointing out the headbutt Obi-wan received from the non-force-wielding Mandalorian. All this tells us is that precognition is not perfect (something we've known since the first film), not that it doesn't exist.

As such, the point stands, Khan is unable to replicate Kenobi's feat and gets sliced and diced by Grievous as a result.

You say: These are all bare-assertions, however. They aren't grounded in any evidence of Khan's movement speed.

Fortunately, if we are to go by your standards and say Grievous is restricted to walking menacingly towards Khan, (which I'm happy to do) we have ample evidence in regards to what Khan will do. Feist your eyes on the actual fight.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWUDKY7E8ok

At 2:05, Spock is hanging off the hover-car. Khan, having already landed on the car, stands around pointlessly, giving Spock precisely 11 seconds to get back up so that he may continue the fight. Lots of people would dismiss this as CIS, but I'd prefer we go by your standards, Khan. This is exactly how Khan is likely to behave during battle. Stand around pointlessly while Grievous advances. Moreover, at 1:48, rather than finish Spock off while he is down, Khan pointlessly stares at him for a couple of seconds then jumps off to another vehicle! Sheer incompetence! A more competent opponent would've taken the opportunity to throat-stomp Spock!

Thus, here is how the battle is to be proceed pursuant to your standards. Grievous does indeed walk menacingly towards Khan like he did with Obi-wan, but Khan just stands around pointlessly for at least 11 seconds, giving Grievous the chance to slice and dice him!

Khan's efforts to arm himself with his own weaponry goes right back to what I said in the previous reply. Your method for Khan winning consist of at least three moves: Drop his electrostaff, look around the room to find the weapon he wants, going and grabbing the weapon he wants. While he is attempting to pull off these three moves, his very fast opponent has the means to end the battle in one move.
And that's the thing about your arguments. You talk up a great game about Khan, but always tell rather than show show. I just cited two major examples of incompetence from Khan that greatly outweigh any problems Kenobi has shown. Standing around pointlessly for 11 seconds is BEYOND incompetent.

He would certainly be forced to, given the Cyborg's speed advantage and the fact that you're insisting he try to end the battle in 3 moves vs Grievous' 1. Yes, Khan is familiar with weapons, but his speed (and skill to a lesser extent) are the problem. Grievous can move his lightsabers so fast that they look like ceiling fans. Khan easily gets tagged by much slower punches from Spock.

The more we analyze Khan's fight with Spock, the more reason we have to question any notions of Khan's speed and skill. Telegraphed punches, standing around pointlessly, not seizing opportunities to win, etc. Why should Grievous have trouble with any of this?

Unable to best Kenobi? Kenobi was getting thrown around like a ragdoll. There's a reason he force pulled the blaster at the end. It wasn't because he was winning the fist fight.

Nah, this sounds like obfuscation. The point is pretty clear. Reliance on overly telegraphed haymakers is indicative of a lack of fighting skill. In Grievous' case, he at least used them when they were sure to land. Khan, however, wasted a valuable opportunity to win.


No no, prove Spock was moving at lightspeed when he was transported down in pursuit of Khan. Prove Uhura was moving at lightspeed when she was transported down in pursuit of Khan. I don't want any explanation on how teleportation in the Trek universe works just as you don't want any explanation on how Jedi use the force. I want it to be proved by statements at the exact specific time they happen or it didn't happen. . See? Weak sauce.

I dunno man. I mean, I did post the video and we do see him in the blast, so there's no disputing that he was in the blast, We do see the explosions go off right next to him, so there's no disputing that either. Maybe has something to do with that force thing we keep talking about.

Nope, look at the timestamp I showed you. Hell, look at the posture of Jango's hands. They're spread out. If he was flipping him, he wouldn't have let go.

Semanticaga's casting time is ridiculously long, quan. :P

It is a fact that Jango tried to defeat Obi-wan. He did so employing fisticuffs, gadgets and explosives. Defeating Obi-wan was one of the means he used to try and escape. And there, he lost. There's no disputing that. Grievous lost too, but Grievous performed substantially better, landing six clean blows contrary to Jango's one. Can't argue against math.

I've restricted myself to films and would kindly ask that you do the same; none of that Clone Wars stuff (better feats for Grievous there anyway).

Kylo's movements were affected. We see this mid-battle as he engaged the non force sensitive Finn. Rather than take the time to finish him off when he is knocked down, he turns around to hit his wounds. The same cannot be said for Khan. The only time he stops to reel in pain is in response to pain Spock or Uhura has caused him. Khan is every bit as strong and fast as he was when he beat up Kirk on the Vengeance. A good showing for Khan mind you, but not good enough against someone like Grievous.

In that same video, we see Grievous punch a sizable dent into his starship, so any notions that Grievous is weak is laughable. This isn't the first time we see Kenobi somehow withstanding large amounts of damage. That Jango fight you pointed us too is a great example. Perhaps it has something to do with that vague force thing you keep downplaying.

Build a strawman, burn it down, then call me names. I'm not impressed.

I see the blast all around Obi-wan and have posted both shots. Not much else to say. I don't really do "the sky is not blue" arguments. Sorry.

How predictable from Quan.....

Khan destroyes this pussy.

Originally posted by Kazenji
How predictable from Quan..... Supprting Khan the winner with an argument based off showings, etc. You did your predictable worthless comment like some little *****. All you do is copy and paste links from screen rant you don't offer shit to this site you pile of shit.

The thread did no go the way the OP was hoping.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Not really, he got owned by a regular blaster.

Khans Ship wrecking gun owns him.

He wasn't expecting it. Jedi don't normally use blasters.

Changes nothing.

And as I've said before Grievous doesn't have precognition nor can you prove when it's been used. Your point has been destroyed and isn't relevant for this fight so kindly take your shitty fanboyism elsewhere. I can prove when the ships trans beam warp. That's neither here nor there. Your whole initial point was on Kenobi but in a brawl he gets tagged and doesn't even win against a skilled opponent with precognition.

That's neither here nor there since that's relevant to a sword fight in which Kenobi is more skilled. Grievous has more hands and can spin them fast but he can't even best Kenobi with four sabers as compared to one. His skill is that awful. So in a hand tai hand fight precognition doesn't make the guy with it way better than the guy without it which is my point. Concession accepted. Factually backed. On screen evidence>>>your fanboyism.

No, since the feat or the actual slice and dice takes well over five seconds and Khan won't engage him with a light saber. Your scripting is nauseating and isn't supported by logic or anything in the films.


We see Khan move far faster in combat than the time it takes Grievous to close on Kenobi. I can show Khan closing far faster with a gun than Grievous does with his sabers.

Irrelevant to this fight since Khan had no weapons and the aircraft was moving. This situation isn't the same nor is Khan without multiple weapons in the immediate vicinity. None of your logic holds any water since Spock wasn't wielding any light sabers and we see how quickly he disarms Spock. At the start of the fight since if you recall he was chasing Khan with his phaser. Quit with your speculative nonsense. Khan realized he wasn't just against Spock but the entire coordinated efforts of the Enterprise and that he needed to get free and regroup. There was nothing in it to kill Spock unless he had to since he just wanted to be free and escape and further plot.

False, as Khan isn't armed and will put himself in the best position to kill Grievous. Aboard the avengeance he knows when his enemies can't use weapons and takes full advantage. Khan is tactical not some fool who'd stand there while a cyborg approaches him with four spinning lightsabers. Make a logical argument based off the evidence and the circumstances here.

He doesn't need to drop his staff until he closes on a gun. Why would he toss his weapon until he arrived at a better option ? Quit scripting. I know this thread was a cowardly attempt by you to set a scenario you'd argue with against me. It's obvious but you're not very good at the whole debating thing.

The circumstances were different and hand to hand Khan prevailed pver an armored opponent. Results matter. The results of your grievous/Kenobi fight end with him dying. He even tried to escape and lost a fair one on one battle and failed to put Kenobi down in a fist fight. He's the cyborg with the armor and he lacked the power to ko or beat Kenobi despite connecting multiple times. We also see how Khan fared against Spock when armed. Funny thing is he prevailed both times.

False, Kenobi showed major incompetence in taking on Jango. He was disarmed, knocked around, prevented from reacquiring his weapon. That's called incompetence. He later pursued him in his ship and was unable to best Jango there either. So much for precog. Multiple showings of incompetence.

Kenobi also was tagged by a far slower head butt. So by your own logic we ignore the guy who wasn't tagged by a light saber against him but ignore that the same guy was unable to beat down Jango or avoid the far slower head butt.

Khan's speed is greater than what Grievous showed when twirling his hands quickly. Undeniable.


You are forgetting he is fighting aboard a moving craft. That isn't the case here. Khan missed as did Grievous miss punches. Khan prevailed after the crash while Grievous didn't prevail. Khan was about to crush his skull when Uhura showed up and shot him eight times which still didn't put him down.


Kenobi shouldn't win a fist fight with an armored foe. He even foolishly kicked him because he's an idiot but it didn't matter as Grievous was unable to seriously injure him. Yes, a gun showed that despite Grievous being armed he was easily mowed down. He didn't have the skill to block the attack with his weapon.

So you ignore the rest of the fight and the fact Grievous hasn't dodged any punches. Spock dodged a couple and Khan prevailed. Grevious never dodged a single blow so how is it relevant here ? It isn't you're just obsessed with this but gloss over the outcome one on one here. Grievous also missed punches and foot stomps. Kenobi is on his back and the guy can't even kick him correctly. We see Khan clearly capitalize when his opponent is on his back by kicks to the head, punches, etc. whereas Grievous misses. He doesn't capitalize.

I don't care how quickly I prove they were transported. That's what I claimed you tried changing my argument. Try to pay attention to what I do say, kiddo. I said transported down and can prove it. Period. You can continue to misrepresent English and put words into my mouth but the quote is up there, liar.

No, the blast never touches him. Are you saying fire doesn't burn Jedi ? Points to Anakin burning in rots and chuckles. He was not hit directly. Period. Quit lying. No,mince we have seen force users shot and hurt, killed, etc. for ****s sake you need to prove it not just theorize. Weak.

He lets him go as he flipped him back. He let go as he wasn't putting him into s hold. He caught his kick. Kenobi tried kicking him again.

Jango had Boba get on board because they were leaving so he did what he had to escape. He tried to kill him but that wasn't his objective. Kenobi's objective was to bring him in. Kenobi's objective was to destroy Grievous. You can't argue with success. So if someone lands ten blows and loses by being oneshotted you'd say that guy won because math. 10>1. ****ing pathetic.


Hitting his wounds doesn't mean he can't move around just like he did prior to being shot. It just means he hit his wounds. He also toyed with Finn but got tagged anyways. It is the same thing and just because Khan doesn't hit himself like Kylo does that doesn't mean Kylo doesn't fight in the same movement speed he did throughout the entire film. Being in pain doesn't in and of itself limit movement. Grevious loses here. He was awful in the films. He escaped and later got destroyed after trying to escape a fair one on one fight while being armed.

We also see Khan crush a human skull and know that the Vulcan is vastly superior strength wise to any human being. We also see Khan let someone attack him and hit him and Kirk tire himself out. We later see Anakin clearly hurt Kenobi with physical attacks and yet he lacks the strength of grievous. Kenobi isn't hard to hurt. Grievous just isn't that good despite being much stronger.

It never did. Fire burns them, lasers goes inside of their flesh, etc. The blast hit near him not on him. Evidence is undeniable you blabbering fanboy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Quit scripting. I know this thread was a cowardly attempt by you to set a scenario you'd argue with against me.

I did create this thread knowing you'd gladly vouch for Khan. That much should be clear. But the rest is a bit off. Had someone else come along to argue for Grievous, the most I would've done is watch quietly like I usually do and occasionally comment here and there from both sides' perspective. Had a bunch of people come here to argue against you (i.e. +5 on 1), I would have argued for Khan (civilly of course). Seeing as neither of those things happened, I took up the mantle for Grievous.

I'm not sure how you view my actions as cowardly. The scenario in the OP is anything but. I went out of my way to make this a fair contest and don't believe I've yet to return any of your personal attacks with personal attacks of my own. Believe it or not, some of us aren't motivated out of the desire to defend a particular fictional character and just like the prospect of having an engaging debate. Contrary to the regulars over on the SW forum, I don't actually have an encyclopedic knowledge of SW lore, so a film-only discussion was right up my alley! I'm sorry you took so much offense to me engaging you in a debate, but I had a lot of fun nonetheless.

Khan wins none the less.

Rebuttals

1. Precognition

You haven't proven Kenobi needed his precognition to deal with Grievous' twirling ability. You assumed without any proof just assumption. Baseless claim. What makes sense is Kenobi's superior light saber skills made up for this. What kind of asinine point he can use the force to guide his movement ? It's baseless hyperbole. I can show you characters hitting, hurting, and him ****ijg up and your laughable response would be well it isn't perfect. So then we come back to square one and your claim is baseless, generic, and not specific enough to be worth a damn thing.

We see Trek's teleportation take place. You tried making up a claim I didn't say. We can visibly see when someone teleports. The same cannot be said for precognition thus I can prove it while you can't. You already said its imperfect thus invalidating your own claim.

My standard is we can visibly see when it takes place but we can't tell every time precognition is being used. It's this simple he either has the skill or he doesn't. He has the skill to kill Grievous but he didn't have the skill to kill Jango. Simple.


2.Combat speed

Here is where you pr argument completely false apart as you're comparing sword battles to hand to hand fights. Grievous also gets tagged by Kenobi in a hand to hand fight despite Kenobi's attacks being slower than a light saber. The reason is obvious he's more skilled with a light saber than he is in a hand to hand fight. So when we are comparing the same types of strikes slower punches and kicks in close proximity all of the characters are guilty of being struck. And I am sick to shit of you Star Wars debaters trying to create this false light in which they are on another level of reaction speed. It's bullshit. You see when we time out the hand to hand fights we see they all react in the same level of reaction speed. Only when you try to compare light saber dueling which doesn't have anything to do with Khan can you try to make this false distinction. Apples to oranges.

Again, you're creating only a black and white type response. You're eliminating options based off your close mind. Stop. You are ignoring the time it takes. Key word is time. The time it takes Khan to run over a pick up a gun doesn't take as long as Grievous needs to twirl his hands and close the distance based off the evidence. Khan runs very quickly and he can pick up a gun and fire it with superhuman accuracy. We also have seen how well Grievous defends himself against Kenobi's blaster. He had a weapon but what occurred ?

False. Khan seeks to give self the advantage. He isn't taking on an armored foe in Spock so why would he seek to engage him in hand to hand with weapons lying around and one directly in his possession. We see how Khan fared against Spock while armed. He casually shot the gun out of Spock's possession. That isn't relevant to this situation or this opponent. You didn't make a hand to hand only situation.

Khan beat Spock down. He was about to crush his head. Someone else showed up. You can argue all you want but as I said a paragraph up why this isn't relevant. 1. Spock isn't Grievous not does he fight with the hand to hand skill.
2. Khan won't engage a cyborg in han dri hand unless he's forced to because he wants the advantage. There are weapons around and why try to punch an armored cyborg.

What you don't take into consideration is these characters fight in character. I also have two examples of Grievous failing to show impressive closing speed against Kenobi. We see with the hand twirl and what led right up to his death. He didn't even twirl, had a weapon, and had Kenobi in a defensive position while weaponless and he failed to close the deal!!!

3. Kenobi DID STRUGGLE with Jango Fett

1. Point was Kenobi was hit by slower attacks in a hand to hand fight just as Grievous was. Just as Khan and Spck were as well. It's the same shit.

2. Yes, it is imperfect and he's been hit by really slow attacks such as the headbutt thus destroying your whole these guys are much faster point with a direct example eradicating your fanboyism.

3. That screen cap shows its near him not that it hit him. The fire is near him it doesn't touch him. Look at the pic. The exp,psi on sends him back. It's no different than anyone else jumping or being blown away but not being caught in the eye of the blast just near it.

4. Grievous DID LOSE to Kenobi

Completely incorrect. What you're forgetting are key details.

1) Khan wasn't armed against Spock on the aircraft carrier. Kenobi was armed against Jango. When Khan was armed he decimated an entire squad of Klingong and had Spock, Uhura, and Kirk in awe and at his complete mercy when armed. You don't get to compare Kenobi armed and compare him to Khan unarmed. When zkhan is armed Spock, Kirk, Uhura and an entire squad of Klingons are shit. When we see Kenobi he barely defeated Grievous and stalemated Jango and didn't achieve his objective despite being armed against both opponents.


2) prove he uses the force to shield himself from Grievous' attacks. That's just ridiculous and another baseless assumption without a shred of proof. Grievous wasn't strong enough nor did he have the force p. He lost because he was worse and didn't close in time. He had opportunities in the fight but wasn't good enough. That's it. The rest is excuse making.

3). Grievous' goal was Kenobi's death. He failed to yes even the punches he landed weren't significant enough to injure, maim, or kill Kenobi. A missed punch is a missed punch. Your perception of it is just an opinion. What you can't change is that they were missed attacks and the results. Khan was better than Spock hand to hand while Grievous wasn't better than Kenobi, ever.


5. Khan's injuries

It isn't the same thing. Tell me what sequence of Kylo wielding his saber in combat is noticebly different or slower. You're being an obvious hyoocrite. It's sickening. Khan in the end still prevailed over Spock in hand to hand ehich isn't the point of this thread nor does it force Khan to go hand to hand with a cyborg. Grievous failed both with his sabers and in a fisticuff fight against a fleshy and inferior hand to hand opponent.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I did create this thread knowing you'd gladly vouch for Khan. That much should be clear. But the rest is a bit off. Had someone else come along to argue for Grievous, the most I would've done is watch quietly like I usually do and occasionally comment here and there from both sides' perspective. Had a bunch of people come here to argue against you (i.e. +5 on 1), I would have argued for Khan (civilly of course). Seeing as neither of those things happened, I took up the mantle for Grievous.

I'm not sure how you view my actions as cowardly. The scenario in the OP is anything but. I went out of my way to make this a fair contest and don't believe I've yet to return any of your personal attacks with personal attacks of my own. Believe it or not, some of us aren't motivated out of the desire to defend a particular fictional character and just like the prospect of having an engaging debate. Contrary to the regulars over on the SW forum, I don't actually have an encyclopedic knowledge of SW lore, so a film-only discussion was right up my alley! I'm sorry you took so much offense to me engaging you in a debate, but I had a lot of fun nonetheless. Khan wins.