Darth Caedus vs Dooku

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Ziggystardust
Lightsabers
Force
All out

Normal circumstances.

chingchangwalla
Caedus takes everything but maybe sabers

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Caedus takes everything but maybe sabers

smokin'

Agreed. Also; legends only.

NewGuy01
Is there something about canon Dooku that would change the outcome? confused

Anyway, Caedus.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Is there something about canon Dooku that would change the outcome? confused

You mean beside the fact that Legends Dooku rapes everyone but Yoda and Anakin, while Canon Dooku gets creampied by Savage and Vos and pirates?

NewGuy01
Ah, it excludes Vos...

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You mean beside the fact that Legends Dooku rapes everyone but Yoda and Anakin, while Canon Dooku gets creampied by Savage and Vos and pirates?

Eloquent as always. But yes, there is a difference.

Emperordmb
As DC would put it: Caedus sweeps.

Ursumeles
Up, as this therad was made on my BDay.
Caedus sweeps smile

MythLord
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You mean beside the fact that Legends Dooku rapes everyone but Yoda and Anakin,

yes

MythLord
Also, Jacen should sweep, but sabers can be debatable.

Ursumeles
Dooku>Windu confirmed smile

Ziggystardust
Force feats for Jacen better than hurling several 75m ships, killing Ventress and Force choking/hurling Obi Wan?

Beniboybling
Ragdolling Jaina without gesture and with a hole in this gut, which in spite of he kept fighting.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ragdolling Jaina without gesture and with a hole in this gut.
Holy ****, when?

Ziggystardust
I seem to remember him blasting her back and and then her breaking out of his Force choke. Not that impressive considering this was noob Jaina who admitted to be inferior to most of the council - them not disagreeing with her either.

Deronn_solo
Jacen should sweep. It won't be a wrecking or anything though.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Holy ****, when? In their final battle:EDIT: Also to provide some contexts:

Ziggystardust
So basically, he failed to ragdoll Jaina?

Beniboybling
He succeeding in throwing her at an incinerator, in an incredibly weakened state, and without gesture, so no lol.

Ziggystardust
You do realise the first rule of Jacen solo is that he amps himself off pain Beni, something that has been established since traitor

edit : And lol, no, she stopped herself meaning Jacen had her off guard for a split second, but couldn't move her any further.

Beniboybling
Which he was using to keep himself alive, keep floundering Ziggy.

Ursumeles
Neat feat, especially the all of her strenght part. Thanks for the feat, Beni smile

Ziggystardust
You need to clarify that Jacen would be weaker considering the pain amplifier, seen as you can not do that there's no reason to assume he was. So far you have shown me that he was unable to rag doll Jaina when she fought back, there is also a point where she broke his Force choke in the book, indicating that a valid attempt to resist Caedus' attacks will work.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Neat feat, especially the all of her strenght part. Thanks for the feat, Beni smile Your welcome.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You need to clarify that Jacen would be weaker consider the pain amplifier, seen as you can not do that there's no reason to assume he was.No, rather you need to explain why this "pain amplifier" would be somehow sufficient not only to nullify is crippling injuries, but make him more powerful as well. "Conventional wisdom" as you'd put it, tell's us that he'd not be at full strength after suffering mortal wounds, which he had to divert energy to manage. The fact he achieved it with such nonchalant ease making it more irrelevant a point besides.He was unable to maintain a complete hold of her correct, but cases in which a Force user is able to do so is rare, and in that regard the best Dooku has managed is ****ing Tiplee. Lmao.

And I'd appreciate an extract and contexts regarding that instance your referring to. The fact that it took all her strength to break his hold suggests she was at her limits.

Ziggystardust
Beni, I appreciate you trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but please remember that Jaina herself was exhausted, and unlike Jacen is unable to amp herself from every injury she recieves.



So you have shown me that Caedus is unable to rag doll his weakened sister, while he may or may not be weekend himself. Can we get a feat that isn't debunked? So i ask you again, show me force feats of Caedus that are better than rag dolling Obi Wan while fighting Anakin Skywalker in his prime, killing Ventress or hurling huge 75 meter ships.

Azronger
Caedus amps himself off of pain, yes, but it is also noted in the text he had to use a lot of energy to keep himself alive, so the way I see it is that it balances out.

And then we must consider other factors like Caedus not using gestures and Jaina being exhausted, which also balance out.

Add in this feat...

Jaina felt Jacen then; he was throttling Mirta to let Tahiri escape into the docking tube above the hatch. Jaina put every scrap of strength she had into breaking Jacen's invisible Force choke hold on Mirta. She saw it like a black chain and visualized the links flying apart just as Carid shot past her and scrambled up the ladder followed by Vevut.

-Legacy of the Force: Revelation

...and it's pretty clear Caedus isn't ragdolling Jaina. Although it should be noted resisiting it took Jaina to her limits, both times.

That's my view on it.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Beni, I appreciate you trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but please remember that Jaina herself was exhausted, and unlike Jacen is unable to amp herself from every injury she recieves.



So you have shown me that Caedus is unable to rag doll his weakened sister, while he may or may not be weekend himself. Can we get a feat that isn't debunked? So i ask you again, show me force feats of Caedus that are better than rag dolling Obi Wan while fighting Anakin Skywalker in his prime, killing Ventress or hurling huge 75 meter ships. That's not an indication of exhaustion lol, rather pain threatening to shut down her body. She had done nothing at that point to warrant fatigue. (That said, almost KO'ing Jaina with a single attack is also a superior feat to anything Dooku has managed.)

On the other hand:Case closed.

And though Dooku was able to grip Kenobi in RotS, the junior novelisation implies this is only a result of the element of surprise, and certainly he fails to do the same to him as he did to Tiplee in Son of Dathomir. Begging the question of whether Kenobi wouldn't be able to break free of the Count's telekinetic hold either if given the opportunity.

Certainly nothing Dooku has done suggests he could even break the barriers of someone of Jaina's calibre with the first place, let alone under Caedus' circumstances. So I'll stick with this as my evidence thanks.

Oh and if we are going to nitpick further? I've yet to see any proof that Dooku could perform his ship feat off of a nexus. I'll wait.

EDIT: His ability to kill Ventress hardly even worth mentioning, considering Ventress has suffered crippling injuries beforehand.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Caedus amps himself off of pain, yes, but it is also noted in the text he had to use a lot of energy to keep himself alive, so the way I see it is that it balances out.

And then we must consider other factors like Caedus not using gestures and Jaina being exhausted, which also balance out.

Add in this feat...

Jaina felt Jacen then; he was throttling Mirta to let Tahiri escape into the docking tube above the hatch. Jaina put every scrap of strength she had into breaking Jacen's invisible Force choke hold on Mirta. She saw it like a black chain and visualized the links flying apart just as Carid shot past her and scrambled up the ladder followed by Vevut.

-Legacy of the Force: Revelation

...and it's pretty clear Caedus isn't ragdolling Jaina. Although it should be noted resisiting it took Jaina to her limits, both times.

That's my view on it. Should be noted that Jaina was only able to break his hold over Mirta using shatterpoint.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Azronger
Caedus amps himself off of pain, yes, but it is also noted in the text he had to use a lot of energy to keep himself alive, so the way I see it is that it balances out.

And then we must consider other factors like Caedus not using gestures and Jaina being exhausted, which also balance out.

Add in this feat...

Jaina felt Jacen then; he was throttling Mirta to let Tahiri escape into the docking tube above the hatch. Jaina put every scrap of strength she had into breaking Jacen's invisible Force choke hold on Mirta. She saw it like a black chain and visualized the links flying apart just as Carid shot past her and scrambled up the ladder followed by Vevut.

-Legacy of the Force: Revelation

...and it's pretty clear Caedus isn't ragdolling Jaina. Although it should be noted resisiting it took Jaina to her limits, both times.

That's my view on it.
How was she more exhausted than Caedus in theior final duel, lol. She just was amped far beyond her usual level.
And as she frees Mira, she caught her offguard.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Azronger
Caedus amps himself off of pain, yes, but it is also noted in the text he had to use a lot of energy to keep himself alive, so the way I see it is that it balances out.

And then we must consider other factors like Caedus not using gestures and Jaina being exhausted, which also balance out.

Add in this feat...

Jaina felt Jacen then; he was throttling Mirta to let Tahiri escape into the docking tube above the hatch. Jaina put every scrap of strength she had into breaking Jacen's invisible Force choke hold on Mirta. She saw it like a black chain and visualized the links flying apart just as Carid shot past her and scrambled up the ladder followed by Vevut.

-Legacy of the Force: Revelation

...and it's pretty clear Caedus isn't ragdolling Jaina. Although it should be noted resisiting it took Jaina to her limits, both times.

That's my view on it.


Completely agree with, and Beni lol Jaina was very obviously both in pain and exhausted - wanting to become unconscious and fighting to keep the pain carrying her down into a numb oblivion. That trauma and stress to your body will certainly have a toll on her abilties, and unlike Jacen, she isn't able to amp herself. It's a simple premise, just like ben Kenobi being a shadow of his former self in a new hope, both are very obviously rooted in the text and have little reason for you to deny them. Case closed. Jacen can't ragdoll Jaina.

Anyway, so far you have managed to prove one thing, Jacen is stronger than his sister, which no one is denying. However, her ability is in question given that she herself admits that many of the council members are more proficient than her in a fight, them not disagreeing with her either.

And yeah, Dooku managed to win a direct mano-e-mano Force contest with the most powerful Jedi ever. Caedus failing to ragdoll Jaina on various occasions doesn't compare.

http://www.facegarage.com/content/uploads/ytToGIF_crfgeaaage997100.gif

Ziggystardust
It's also worth noting that wether or not Kenobi was caught "off -gaurd" is unimportant, the text in Invincible is written from Jaina's perspective and lets us know that she very clearly wasn't expecting a Force attack. The difference is that she was able to resist it, where Kenobi did not. So the difference between Dooku an Jacen is that The Count actually incapacitates his foes when using the Force while everyone one and their mothers has a shot at resisting the almighty Caedus.

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And though Dooku was able to grip Kenobi in RotS, the junior novelisation implies this is only a result of the element of surprise, and certainly he fails to do the same to him as he did to Tiplee in Son of Dathomir. Begging the question of whether Kenobi wouldn't be able to break free of the Count's telekinetic hold either if given the opportunity.

So Dooku can't treat Kenobi as utter fodder with the Force? That's nice. All you've proven is that Obi-Wan

Dooku still choked him, and the junior novelisation is vague about the subject if Obi can counter instantly or not, it just notes he gathered the energies to counter. If you give a Force user enough time to dwell into and soak up his power in the Force, then they can counter superior telekinetics(look at Kas'im vs Bane, or Jaina breaking Jacen's choke as examples).

All this proves is Kenobi needs to gather a notable amount of energy to counter an easy sweep attack from Dooku, still placing Obi in the ragdoll range for Tyranus.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Certainly nothing Dooku has done suggests he could even break the barriers of someone of Jaina's calibre with the first place, let alone under Caedus' circumstances. So I'll stick with this as my evidence thanks.

Dooku is certainly more powerful than Jaina, and can break her defenses, lmao. Obviously not to the same degree as dear Jacen, but he can still do it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh and if we are going to nitpick further? I've yet to see any proof that Dooku could perform his ship feat off of a nexus. I'll wait.

He's ragdolled Vos, who's dominated K'kruhk, who's manipulated ships, maybe? Also, the nexus was a rather pathetic one as per PoD and as per BoS only grew weaker.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
EDIT: His ability to kill Ventress hardly even worth mentioning, considering Ventress has suffered crippling injuries beforehand.

And Dooku suffered similar injury, and still would've killed Vos had Asajj not intervened.

Not arguing for Caedus vs Dooku since Caedus definitely takes it, but just thought I'd correct some jazz.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MythLord
So Dooku can't treat Kenobi as utter fodder with the Force? That's nice. All you've proven is that Obi-Wan

Dooku still choked him, and the junior novelisation is vague about the subject if Obi can counter instantly or not, it just notes he gathered the energies to counter. If you give a Force user enough time to dwell into and soak up his power in the Force, then they can counter superior telekinetics(look at Kas'im vs Bane, or Jaina breaking Jacen's choke as examples).

All this proves is Kenobi needs to gather a notable amount of energy to counter an easy sweep attack from Dooku, still placing Obi in the ragdoll range for Tyranus.That wasn't my point, no suprise you missed it since you've butted in to this argument at random. smileThat's nice, but I'd appreciate more than just your opinion on the matter.It wasn't pathetic, it was actually quite powerful.But still managed to conjure far more powerful lightning than Vos had ever seen, and failed to kill Ventress under neutral circumstances. Not sure what proof you have Vos would have died.Take your jazz elsewhere.Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Completely agree with, and Beni lol Jaina was very obviously both in pain and exhausted - wanting to become unconscious and fighting to keep the pain carrying her down into a numb oblivion. That trauma and stress to your body will certainly have a toll on her abilties, and unlike Jacen, she isn't able to amp herself. It's a simple premise, just like ben Kenobi being a shadow of his former self in a new hope, both are very obviously rooted in the text and have little reason for you to deny them. Case closed. Jacen can't ragdoll Jaina. The pain would have weakened her sure, but there is no evidence she was exhausted, Jacen was and his injuries were far worse.Provide context, because in Apocalypse she is stated to be the combat equal of anyone in the Jedi Order.http://i.imgur.com/mXyupD1.gif

BazookaMaster
Sabers: Caedus 10/10 in good fight
Force: Caedus 10/10 in stomp
All out: Caedus 10/10 easily

The Ellimist
Thanks for the help Ziggy; your inept debating has led me to place Caedus higher. I now have him losing to Plagueis in a brutal fight, and being a near equal to RotS Sidious in sabers.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Thanks for the help Ziggy; your inept debating has led me to place Caedus higher. I now have him losing to Plagueis in a brutal fight, and being a near equal to RotS Sidious in sabers. laughing out loud smile

GM Yoda
Sabers: Caedus 5/10
Force: Caedus 7/10
All out: Caedus 6/10.

UCanShootMyNova
Azronger. We're there any circumstances to Jaina breaking Caedus's force choke?

carthage
I'd bet my money on Caedus everytime.

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