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How goes this? IMHO, Void is more powerful than Death Sentry and his Void(try) showing vs Molecule Man is key.

Some people blow up the MM showing and it distracts from the discussion. Keep in mind, he didn't have to beat SW level Molecule Man (which I don't believe he did anyway) for this to be an excellent showing.

Molecule Man has gone through several incarnations:
1) couldn't affect organic molecules (pre SW)
2) SW level omnipotent
3) back down to only affecting organic molecules (post SW)
4) Molecule Man unleashed (vs Beyonder he extracted from Kosmos)
5) powered down tp pre SW levels that CAN affect organic molecules (Dark Avengers)
6) Hickman's MM which is current

Void(try) took out a Phase 5 Molecule Man. This dude was more powerful than Phase 1 Molecule Man which did this :
http://s31.postimg.org/fjwgbfoa3/2584718_a215_weaponsdestroyed.jpg

So Void(try) beating him at his own game is damn impressive. Void(try) would matter manip Death Sentry into oblivion.

That is some fairly extensive ABC logic you've worked out.

Originally posted by krisblaze
That is some fairly extensive ABC logic you've worked out.
He beat Molecule Man at manipulating matter. Where am I going wrong?

normal sentry has beaten void though, no...?

Originally posted by leonidas
normal sentry has beaten void though, no...?

Yep. More than once as well. And even more if you count the Silver Age-y stuff.

Isnt the Void just a psychic manifestation of the Sentry though without all the barriers Bob puts on his self? So, it would make sense when Bob wins.

Originally posted by leonidas
normal sentry has beaten void though, no...? Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Yep. More than once as well. And even more if you count the Silver Age-y stuff.
Void is Sentry. Sentry is Void. It's like saying Jean Grey 'beat' Dark Phoenix way back in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

As to the thread, Void(try)'s matter manip was approaching skyfather level (if it already wasn't).

Originally posted by krisblaze
That is some fairly extensive ABC logic you've worked out.

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/smiling1.gif

Originally posted by zopzop
Void is Sentry. Sentry is Void. It's like saying Jean Grey 'beat' Dark Phoenix way back in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

As to the thread, Void(try)'s matter manip was approaching skyfather level (if it already wasn't).

I think to be honest Molecule Manip is just more of Voids type of attack considering his personality and his don't give a **** who I hurt and how attitude. Sentry only ever used Molecule Manip very very rarely in a situation when he was in great danger or under pressure. With the Molecule Man fight being a example. Otherwise before he was shit scared of ever going to crazy lest he lets the Void emerge. The Void is as we all know an agent of complete and utter chaos. He will use everything at his disposal because what does he have to lose.

This might be a vague analogy but in Pokemon: The First Movie you have Mewtwo (who is a really powerful creature but he is erratic with his power and does receive some teaching but rebels) then you have Mew (who is calm and stays itself mainly holding back but pretty much equally as powerful if not more). And for our Sentry Void analogy they would represent the 2 Pokemon but in a very slight different way. With it being that they are both 100% equal bar from the Sentry having a greater will to win.

But the Void in complete opposite doesn't have the fear of power and stuff so he does all these things that make him seem like an uber god. I believe for all intents and purposes Sentry and the Void are 51/49 equals. With the only reason Sentry getting an extra point is if he is in a relatively stable condition he just has this extra will, want however you want to call it to win. Which is ultimately what lead him to defeat the Void.

Death Sentry is quite similar to the Void in that he doesn't care about who he hurts as much. But he still has a sense of control. With Death Sentry we have a Sentry with the death seed which has unlocked his mind to his full potential. So while we didn't see all of what he was capable of we saw a snippet and it was really impressive. The Void while not being afraid still lacks key things that the Sentry has (and vice versa).

Death Sentry is like a fusion of the two + his mind has been opened to it's full potential. We could go even more into the abstract and he just appeared so godly (similar to the Void mind you). He's confirmed for being more powerful than every hero on Earth put together. In my opinion I just think he is much more powerful.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
In my opinion I just think he is much more powerful.
So you say : DS > Void?

What do you think of Void's appearance in What If 200? I know it was an alternate reality, but Void was shown as being much more powerful than any hero on Earth. Void was destroying the planet and was on his way to the moon to kill that universe's version of Uatu who contacted the mainstream 616 version of himself and said he was gonna die soon. IMHO, that reality was showing Void's full potential.

Originally posted by zopzop
So you say : DS > Void?

What do you think of Void's appearance in What If 200? I know it was an alternate reality, but Void was shown as being much more powerful than any hero on Earth. Void was destroying the planet and was on his way to the moon to kill that universe's version of Uatu who contacted the mainstream 616 version of himself and said he was gonna die soon. IMHO, that reality was showing Void's full potential.

Yep I would say so.

==================================================


Ah you mean this bit right?

http://i.imgur.com/02ONYZb.jpg1

Alternate reality and stuff yeah plus there was some weird things in it. Like they said if "Voidtry" had killed Ares earlier he would have defeated everyone easily as the wound knocked the tar out of him. But all it served to do was break the eggshell that was the Sentry's skin.

Don't forget Sentry was shown in Uncanny Avengers to contain more powerful than every hero on Earth + a bit more.

That's not to say Void is pathetic in comparison to Death Sentry but like I said I think this Sentry is like a fusion of the 2 plus having his full potential unlocked. The thing that makes the Void different is that he is reckless and doesn't care about who he kills. So his shows of power are bound to be a lot more erratic and dangerous.

But all of that didn't help the Void when he faced the Sentry and he got beaten to a pulp and thrown into the Sun. And if the Void faces Death Sentry he's going to meet someone as unafraid as him, as ruthless as him, but he is 10x more controlled, 10x more knowledgeable of the power he possesses. And in some ways I think if he has his mind set on a task he's even more ruthless.

Uatu is such a hypocrite. Didn't he break his vows numerous times? He should've told Atau to do the same and get the f*ck out of there while he still could.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Uatu is such a hypocrite. Didn't he break his vows numerous times? He should've told Atau to do the same and get the f*ck out of there while he still could.

It's like he's doing it to spite him because he's going through a mid life crisis. Wanted to just be a dick to him.

"Don't forget Sentry was shown in Uncanny Avengers to contain more powerful than every hero on Earth + a bit more. "

This is the kind of stuff that makes people shake their heads at Sentry fans

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
It's like he's doing it to spite him because he's going through a mid life crisis. Wanted to just be a dick to him.

Rulk needs to one-shot him again.

Or Human torch

Originally posted by krisblaze
"Don't forget Sentry was shown in Uncanny Avengers to contain more powerful than every hero on Earth + a bit more. "

This is the kind of stuff that makes people shake their heads at Sentry fans

It's something that is shown on panel. If Rogue failed to do what she did and she had all the power I mentioned. And she was "half the equation" then how can you see Sentry as being vastly inferior to her (if you do think he was vastly inferior to Rogue that is).

You say that's what makes people shake their heads at Sentry fans but so far you've been the only person to do so.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Or Human torch

And you're going to avoid the context of that are you?

And Stilt was referring to Uatu not Sentry.

As a few others mentioned in the previous thread Rogue was already doing the majority of the work.

For all we know she was doing 90% of the work and simply needed the extra 10% to complete the job. You can't simply assume that Sentry did more than her.

Sentry was just the spotter.

Originally posted by krisblaze
As a few others mentioned in the previous thread Rogue was already doing the majority of the work.

For all we know she was doing 90% of the work and simply needed the extra 10% to complete the job. You can't simply assume that Sentry did more than her.

Sentry was just the spotter.

She did so much of the work that within a few moments Exitar was going to sink into the Earth like Rogue was making no effect at all.

And a few others said otherwise. Doesn't make either of us any more right in that matter. Mob opinion (on either side) doesn't make something fact.

And I never said Sentry did more of the work. I believe in the 50/50 argument. My statement about power of every hero then more is based on the fact that Rogue absorbed the power. Tried to stop Exitar then used Hulk's amping ability to further empower herself.

(I've only made this a separate message in case you quote my other message and don't see this one).

Anything I say relating to Sentry having done more of the work is just me occasionally liking to put on my tinfoil hat. Galan would know what I mean with regards to that since he is the recipient of my random ideas.

Your side, however, is using that feat to claim that the Sentry was proven more powerful than every hero on the planet.

It's silly because not only do we know how much more power Rogue needed to stop Exitar, but also because powers don't necessarily stack that well in her. Rogue with the powers of every available hero could far greater or weaker than the total sum of those powers.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Your side, however, is using that feat to claim that the Sentry was proven more powerful than every hero on the planet.

It's silly because not only do we know how much more power Rogue needed to stop Exitar, but also because powers don't necessarily stack that well in her. Rogue with the powers of every available hero could far greater or weaker than the total sum of those powers.

So why did Rogue bother to absorb the power of every hero on Earth if your argument is correct then in your opinion? How does it fit with your thinking?

If that was truly the case then why not just get every hero on Earth to somehow push against Exitar? Not sure of the logistics there but imagination is key here.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
But all of that didn't help the Void when he faced the Sentry and he got beaten to a pulp and thrown into the Sun.
Depends on how you view this. Aren't Void and Sentry the same being? I always saw this as him overcoming his darker self and nothing more.


Again it comes down to how you view these characters.

I see Void as Franklin Richards lite : A psionic matter manipulation powerhouse.

I view DSentry as an Eternal on steroids. Monsterous physical stats backed up and augmented by stupendous telekinesis.

That's why IMHO, Void > DSentry.

We really needed to see more from Void(try) though. I was hoping we would have gotten a glimpse during that sh|tastic Secret Wars fiasco, but nothing materialized.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
So why did Rogue bother to absorb the power of every hero on Earth if your argument is correct then in your opinion? How does it fit with your thinking?

If that was truly the case then why not just get every hero on Earth to somehow push against Exitar? Not sure of the logistics there but imagination is key here.

I'm not saying she wasn't more powerful, she obviously was.

I think your argument is getting pretty shaky here. You don't really have anything that refutes

1) We don't know how much more power Rogue needed to slow down Exitar.

2) Rogue having the combined powers of every hero doesn't necessarily make her more powerful than the total sum of those powers.

Originally posted by zopzop

Depends on how you view this. Aren't Void and Sentry the same being? I always saw this as him overcoming his darker self and nothing more.


Again it comes down to how you view these characters.

I see Void as Franklin Richards lite : A psionic matter manipulation powerhouse.

I view DSentry as an Eternal on steroids. Monsterous physical stats backed up and augmented by stupendous telekinesis.

That's why IMHO, Void > DSentry.

We really needed to see more from Void(try) though. I was hoping we would have gotten a glimpse during that sh|tastic Secret Wars fiasco, but nothing materialized.

I've seen some people that point. If it was only him overcoming his dark self and nothing more then surely in terms of the Marvel Universe surely the Void can't make an impact on anyone in the MU besides from Sentry. Because it would be like a Sentry is Voids Kryptonite and Void is Sentry's Kryptonite thing.

The Void is a physical manifestation of Robert Reynolds dark side who caused all this chaos in SIEGE, Sentry Vol 1 and 2. Fought a huge team that included Inhumans, Namor, some Avengers etc and he was all tangible for them. I don't believe it suddenly changes when he fights the Sentry - that it's suddenly just Sentry fighting off his dark side with no suggestion of him fighting another physical being. I mean during the events leading up to when Sentry was brought back by Bendis up until SIEGE Robert was just getting worse and worse in regards to his mental state which I think is what lead to the Void and the Sentry merging so to speak.

When Sentry is mentally stable (relatively) like in Uncanny Avengers, he becomes his own separate being. And the same in Sentry Vol 1 and 2.

The Sentry himself is a Psionic being by nature from what we see. If anything Death Sentry is the purest example of a Psionic being when it comes to the 3 forms considering he knows his full potential and he even himself acknowledges that his "soul" is what guides him.

It's just like I said the Void is just incredibly reckless in comparison.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I'm not saying she wasn't more powerful, she obviously was.

I think your argument is getting pretty shaky here. You don't really have anything that refutes

1) We don't know how much more power Rogue needed to slow down Exitar.

2) Rogue having the combined powers of every hero doesn't necessarily make her more powerful than the total sum of those powers.

1) Neither do you so that's a moot point. And the only statement I made is that it wasn't enough*

2) Then why did she bother to absorb them when all the heroes on Earth could have hypothetically all pushed against Exitar on one foot.

*And that's made quite clear from the comic that what Rogue possessed in terms of power was doing nothing to stop Exitar. As Tony said Exitar was going to sink in a few moments. Like I said the 50/50 equation seems much more likely.

What if Exitar faced Brexitar instead? biscuits

I think if you read the scene, it's clear that Rogue was using the powers of the other heroes efficiently. It was almost too much for her at first, but that's when she used Hulk's energy to grow *with* the power, instead of fighting it:
http://i.imgur.com/om6nopB.jpg


I still understand where people are coming from with the 'spotter' analogy, though. It actually does make sense from a certain POV. For example, Rogue could have been doing 90% of the work, but it still wasn't enough to stop Exitar's decent... Then Sentry shows up, exerts an additional 10% of force, and *poof*, Exitar is halted. Anyone who has ever needed a "pinky spot" when lifting weights knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Some people have argued against this by citing 'weight distribution' or w/e, because Rogue was only under one of Exitar's feet, so how could she have been doing more than half the work without noticeably tipping/tilting Exitar's entire person..? But aside from that fact that we're talking about COMICS here, that argument still doesn't really hold up. If Rogue(and the heroes) didn't think that would be a good purchase point through which to slow/stop Exitar as a whole, then they would have told Rogue to push from a more central/core location, like Exitar's dick.

Aside from that, Sentry flew Exitar's lifeless husk away from earth in the aftermath of the battle. And guess what? He was just exerting said force from under ONE of Exitar's feet as well:
http://i.imgur.com/vAhrajQ.jpg

So from a purely fictional/in-universe standpoint, exerting force from underneath an individual foot IS evidently an optimal location through which to equally manipulate Exitar's mass. /shrug



*Again: not saying I agree with that POV, but it does make sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think if you read the scene, it's clear that Rogue was using the powers of the other heroes efficiently. It was almost too much for her at first, but that's when she used Hulk's energy to grow *with* the power, instead of fighting it:
http://i.imgur.com/om6nopB.jpg


I still understand where people are coming from with the 'spotter' analogy, though. It actually does make sense from a certainly POV. For example, Rogue could have been doing 90% of the work, but it still wasn't enough to stop Exitar's decent... Then Sentry shows up, exerts an additional 10% of force, and *poof*, Exitar is halted. Anyone who has ever needed a "pinky spot" when lifting weights knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Some people have argued against this by citing 'weight distribution' or w/e, because Rogue was only under one of Exitar's feet, so how could she have been doing more than half the work without noticeably tipping/tilting Exitar's entire person..? But that argument doesn't really hold up. If Rogue(and the heroes) didn't think that would be a good purchase point through which to slow/stop Exitar as a whole, then they would have told Rogue to push from a more central/core location, like Exitar's dick.

Aside from that, Sentry flew Exitar's lifeless husk away from earth in the aftermath of the battle. And guess what? He was just exerting force from under ONE of Exitar's feet as well:
http://i.imgur.com/vAhrajQ.jpg

So evidently an individual foot IS an optimal location through which to equally manipulate the entirety of Exitar's mass. /shrug



*Again: not saying I agree with that POV, but it does make sense.

The whole logistics of it are odd really. Like even if you were a really strong being surely you can't keep Exitar still unless you can hold both ends of his foot to keep him stable. Because that lifeless Husk would surely tip naturally unless it was supported. And Sentry pales in comparison to Exitar's foot.

But of course it's comics so no point going that indepth to discuss that sort of thing.

At any rate its not conclusive evidence of sentry being more powerful than the combined might of every hero on earth.

Not to mention certain big dogs being absent from earth at the time, like Thor 313

Originally posted by krisblaze
At any rate its not conclusive evidence of sentry being more powerful than the combined might of every hero on earth.

Not to mention certain big dogs being absent from earth at the time, like Thor 313

I to be honest think that if someone else had had Jarnbjorn Thor would have been much better use using one of his more esoteric powers against Exitar.

Couldn't Hyperion have carried it for example.

Was Exitar stomping or just stepping?

Originally posted by bbrem123
Was Exitar stomping or just stepping?

You haven't been around for a while.

And he seemed to be floating/pushing down.

Originally posted by Galan007 Some people have argued against this by citing 'weight distribution' or w/e, because Rogue was only under one of Exitar's feet, so how could she have been doing more than half the work without noticeably tipping/tilting Exitar's entire person..? But aside from that fact that we're talking about COMICS here, that argument still doesn't really hold up. If Rogue(and the heroes) didn't think that would be a good purchase point through which to slow/stop Exitar as a whole, then they would have told Rogue to push from a more central/core location, like Exitar's dick. smile
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsCelestials05.jpg

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
You haven't been around for a while.

And he seemed to be floating/pushing down.

Was just trying to gauge how much force there was.


Yea I know. I just moved to VA and have not been able keep up with comics...need to find a comic book store asap. I feel soooo out of the loop.

Good scan, Gaylan.

It shows DSentry effortlessly flying off with Exitar...alone.

Something that Rogue was unable to do.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Good scan, Gaylan.

It shows DSentry effortlessly flying off with Exitar...alone.

Something that Rogue was unable to do. Given that Exitar was, you know, DEAD at the time, he was obviously not exerting any positive downward force, like he was when Rogue was pushing against him. He was just a lifeless shell hovering above earth. Huge difference.

Nice try though.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think if you read the scene, it's clear that Rogue was using the powers of the other heroes efficiently. It was almost too much for her at first, but that's when she used Hulk's energy to grow *with* the power, instead of fighting it:
http://i.imgur.com/om6nopB.jpg


I still understand where people are coming from with the 'spotter' analogy, though. It actually does make sense from a certain POV. For example, Rogue could have been doing 90% of the work, but it still wasn't enough to stop Exitar's decent... Then Sentry shows up, exerts an additional 10% of force, and *poof*, Exitar is halted. Anyone who has ever needed a "pinky spot" when lifting weights knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Some people have argued against this by citing 'weight distribution' or w/e, because Rogue was only under one of Exitar's feet, so how could she have been doing more than half the work without noticeably tipping/tilting Exitar's entire person..? But aside from that fact that we're talking about COMICS here, that argument still doesn't really hold up. If Rogue(and the heroes) didn't think that would be a good purchase point through which to slow/stop Exitar as a whole, then they would have told Rogue to push from a more central/core location, like Exitar's dick.

Aside from that, Sentry flew Exitar's lifeless husk away from earth in the aftermath of the battle. And guess what? He was just exerting said force from under ONE of Exitar's feet as well:
http://i.imgur.com/vAhrajQ.jpg

So from a purely fictional/in-universe standpoint, exerting force from underneath an individual foot IS evidently an optimal location through which to equally manipulate Exitar's mass. /shrug



*Again: not saying I agree with that POV, but it does make sense.

You are absolutely right about the foot distribution of weight. This is comics and writers didn't consider that. So we can dismiss that argument.

I argue that the spotting theory is absolutely faulty because there is no indication (or evidence) of it anywhere. If the writer was actually thinking that Sentry only supplied a small portion of the total force then he would have wrote something to show or hint to it.

Remember these characters don't exist and none of this stuff ever happened. So there's nothing to actually measure except what the writer was thinking when he wrote the story. The context clue was "she's only Half of the equation". In my opinion, the writer is clear of what he wants to reader to think. If the writer wanted Sentry to lift a small portion then he would have wrote something along the lines that hints at it. But there's nothing except things that support Sentry supplying half of the force or more.

That's my take anyway.

Originally posted by h1a8
I argue that the spotting theory is absolutely faulty because there is no indication (or evidence) of it anywhere. If the writer was actually thinking that Sentry only supplied a small portion of the total force then he would have wrote something to show or hint to it. I'm more a fan of the 50/50 thing myself.

Just pointing out that the spotter analogy makes sense.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsCelestials05.jpg Sorry, just noticed this post. That scene also falls in-line with the notion that exerting force under just one foot of a Celestial can still equally distribute their total mass.

Here's the scene with some clearer scans:
http://i.imgur.com/T9w7b1im.jpg http://i.imgur.com/nZYzR7lm.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007

So from a purely fictional/in-universe standpoint, exerting force from underneath an individual foot IS evidently an optimal location through which to equally manipulate Exitar's mass. /shrug

That makes no sense.

I was the first one to talk about how Sentry stepped in to lift the other foot of Exitar, but I wish I hadn't done that. From that point on I saw everyone talking about how it's not a big deal to stop one foot.

It's not about the foot. To that foot there is still the weight of the entire celestial attached. It doesn't matter where you lift Exitar, if you still have to lift him. I can grab a 40 LBS barbell at one end of it and lift it. I'll still be lifting the entire 40 LBS and not just 20 LBS, because I'm lifting one side.

Regarding the entire lifting of Exitar incident... There are far too many questions to really talk about it in-depth:

1. It should be clear, that Rogue and Sentry had to stop more weight (force) than just Exitar's planetary weight. Exitar was actively trying to sink into the Earth in order to roflstomp it into the ground, but Rogue and Sentry prevented him from doing so.

I can lift and pull more than I weight. And so can probably Exitar. The question is just how much. Were Rogue and Sentry trying to push the weight of two planets up? Of a solar system? Of the entire universe? We don't know.

2. Who did the actual heavy lifting? I understand the spotter analogy. I lift weights myself, so it's perfectly clear, but by going down that route, you dismiss other stuff which has been mentioned in the comic. Stuff, that can be used to make an argument for the Sentry for doing the heavy lifting.

Rogue was supposed to stop him, but she couldn't. She somewhat managed to slow him down. And from what I remember out of the top of my head, the dialog didn't even imply that she was effectively slowing him down. Iron Man just said, that it didn't work and that Exitar was still sinking down. And then Captain America said, that Rogue was only half of the solution. And that's where the Sentry stepped in.

But then again... I would not be able to lift twice the amount of my one-max-rep. But two of me should be able to lift that amount of weight. And in the case of the comic it took Rogue and Sentry. Two people to lift one celestial. And both were half of the equation.
So I personally believe, that each one of them was lifting 50% of the weight. No matter how questionable it is. It's still the easiest, comic-book-logic explanation, which supports all the parties.

A more questionable incident would be Superman, Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman pulling the Earth. An argument I always saw regarding that, was that each one of them was pulling 33% of the weight. To me that never made sense, since Superman could have been pulling 80% of it and the other two 10% each. We never got numbers, but in the Exitar instance, we did. It was a 50% / 50% effort.

Originally posted by Enzeru
That makes no sense. Even though I don't subscribe to the opinion myself, it does make sense -- as you seemed to note/agree with in the paragraph(s) below...

Originally posted by Enzeru
It's not about the foot. To that foot there is still the weight of the entire celestial attached. It doesn't matter where you lift Exitar, if you still have to lift him. I can grab a 40 LBS barbell at one end of it and lift it. I'll still be lifting the entire 40 LBS and not just 20 LBS, because I'm lifting one side. Yes. I agree that pushing against Exitar from underneath one of his feet equates to pushing against the entirety of his mass, equally... That's why the spotter theory is sound.

Again, I'm not arguing here(this isn't my opinion, after all.) I'm just playing devil's advocate, based on what we saw happen on panel then, and what we've seen in instances before that(like the one posted above.)