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As a Jedi Master.

I believe that X2 is right below Korr, if not at his level.

Who do you put directly above X2?

Also, who do you put directly below him?

If I know the general consensus of where he is, I can then find out who he'd be good against, and who he'd get stomped by.

Stormtrooper with a lightsaber level.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Stormtrooper with a lightsaber level. Did you read the respect thread?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Stormtrooper with a lightsaber level. So about Kylo Ren level?

mmm

I guess so, yeah.

So, do you think Ren could take a Magnaguard? Cause I think he'd get stomped.

While X2 was killing them casually as a clone trooper.

You like X2 a lot don't you

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
You like X2 a lot don't you Yeah, honestly.

Before I made a thread on him a year or two ago, no one knew or cared who he was, but he actually has a lot of solid feats.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Stormtrooper with a lightsaber level.
He's Force-sensitive, you know?

I think its a mixture of everyone either getting tired of my constant usage of X2, not knowing who X2 is, but shitting on him anyway, and also confusing X2 with X1 or even X7.

Tell me X2's best feats.

He captured Luke in some game no one played iirc.

EDIT: Actually, I think that was X1.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Tell me X2's best feats. Killing a bunch of Magnaguards as a Clone Trooper with an Electrostaff, making Grievous retreat with the help of Windu, where Mace said he couldn't do it alone.

Beating a Jedi Master in single combat, with a blaster rifle (though they fought in a very confined space).

As a Jedi, his best feat is single-handedly taking down an army of Stormtroopers on Bespin, as well as taking down Vader's personal guard, and another army of stormtroopers on Vjun, in Bast Castle, which is a dark side nexus.

He also killed a bunch of Nightsisters by himself after they killed Grey Squadron, then killed their leader's pet rancor, and the leader herself, who was pretty powerful. (X2 had said he could feel a powerful dark side energy coming from her)

He also was able to defeat his brother, who was a Sith Lord, and had studied a holocron, despite his brother having all the advantages, and help from Royal Guards, Dark Wookie Clones, and more Royal Guards.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's a clone-turned-force-user who captured Luke in some game no one played iirc. Edit: Nvm.

Yeah, revised that just as you replied lol.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
So, do you think Ren could take a Magnaguard? Cause I think he'd get stomped.

LOL. Finn's a MagnaGuard level, Kylo stomped him under extremely negative circumstances.

Kylo > X2, tbh.

Originally posted by MythLord
LOL. Finn's a MagnaGuard level, Kylo stomped him under extremely negative circumstances.

Kylo > X2, tbh. Finn is not even close to Magnaguard level, wtf.

What puts him on Magnaguard level?

Magnaguards have given people like Shaak Ti, Kenobi, and Anakin trouble, they would tear Finn to pieces, nice how you ignored all that other stuff.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Killing a bunch of Magnaguards as a Clone Trooper with an Electrostaff, making Grievous retreat with the help of Windu, where Mace said he couldn't do it alone.

Beating a Jedi Master in single combat, with a blaster rifle (though they fought in a very confined space).

As a Jedi, his best feat is single-handedly taking down an army of Stormtroopers on Bespin, as well as taking down Vader's personal guard, and another army of stormtroopers on Vjun, in Bast Castle, which is a dark side nexus.

He also killed a bunch of Nightsisters by himself after they killed Grey Squadron, then killed their leader's pet rancor, and the leader herself, who was pretty powerful. (X2 had said he could feel a powerful dark side energy coming from her)

He also was able to defeat his brother, who was a Sith Lord, and had studied a holocron, despite his brother having all the advantages, and help from Royal Guards, Dark Wookie Clones, and more Royal Guards.

Probably Kylo level.

Kylo is featless.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Finn is not even close to Magnaguard level, wtf.

What puts him on Magnaguard level?

Magnaguards have given people like Shaak Ti, Kenobi, and Anakin trouble, they would tear Finn to pieces, nice how you ignored all that other stuff.

You do realize there's differing types of MagnaGuards, yes? Because you're essentially generalizing IG 101 as being every single MagnaGuard and if that were the case, Fisto wouldn't have eviscerated two of them, Maul wouldn't have stomped six, and Shaak wouldn't have blitzed 5.

A standard MagnaGuard = a standard Jedi Knight. I have Finn on Jedi Knight level, because he's in the top 1% of an Order of supersoldiers trained from birth, in ways inspired by the training of Jedi and later master melee weapons to combat lightsaber wielding combatants(i.e. Jedi).

Everything points to Finn being on par with your standard Jedi Knight, or above. Especially in-canon where non-Force sensitives fight Force sensitives on a daily basis and don't get absolutely massacred.

Originally posted by MythLord
You do realize there's differing types of MagnaGuards, yes? Because you're essentially generalizing IG 101 as being every single MagnaGuard and if that were the case, Fisto wouldn't have eviscerated two of them, Maul wouldn't have stomped six, and Shaak wouldn't have blitzed 5.

A standard MagnaGuard = a standard Jedi Knight. I have Finn on Jedi Knight level, because he's in the top 1% of an Order of supersoldiers trained from birth, in ways inspired by the training of Jedi and later master melee weapons to combat lightsaber wielding combatants(i.e. Jedi).

Everything points to Finn being on par with your standard Jedi Knight, or above. Especially in-canon where non-Force sensitives fight Force sensitives on a daily basis and don't get absolutely massacred.

They were Grievous Personal Guards :/

Originally posted by MythLord
You do realize there's differing types of MagnaGuards, yes? Because you're essentially generalizing IG 101 as being every single MagnaGuard and if that were the case, Fisto wouldn't have eviscerated two of them, Maul wouldn't have stomped six, and Shaak wouldn't have blitzed 5.

A standard MagnaGuard = a standard Jedi Knight. I have Finn on Jedi Knight level, because he's in the top 1% of an Order of supersoldiers trained from birth, in ways inspired by the training of Jedi and later master melee weapons to combat lightsaber wielding combatants(i.e. Jedi).

Everything points to Finn being on par with your standard Jedi Knight, or above. Especially in-canon where non-Force sensitives fight Force sensitives on a daily basis and don't get absolutely massacred. But he doesn't necessarily have feats to put him on that level, nor the hype.

And this negates the fact that X2 was taking them out by the handful casually, with little effort, 1-3 at the same time, and I think you fight 8-10 of them, and kill all of them by yourself.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
They were Grievous Personal Guards :/

Grievous' personal guards that are inconsistent due to only some of them being so well trained they can challenge top tiers, but most are on par with Jedi Knights.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
But he doesn't necessarily have feats to put him on that level, nor the hype.

He actually does have the hype. And absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence, logic simply points to Finn being incredibly talented as a melee combatant.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
And this negates the fact that X2 was taking them out by the handful casually, with little effort, 1-3 at the same time, and I think you fight 8-10 of them, and kill all of them by yourself.

With the aid of Windu, who could stomp three standard MagnaGuards with alacrity.

And Kylo's ability to murk Finn, under those circumstances, lead me to believe he's capable of at least taking on two MGs.

Originally posted by MythLord
Grievous' personal guards that are inconsistent due to only some of them being so well trained they can challenge top tiers, but most are on par with Jedi Knights.



He actually does have the hype. And absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence, logic simply points to Finn being incredibly talented as a melee combatant.



With the aid of Windu, who could stomp three standard MagnaGuards with alacrity.

And Kylo's ability to murk Finn, under those circumstances, lead me to believe he's capable of at least taking on two MGs. No, Windu was fighting Grievous the entire time, he didn't kill a single Magnaguard, IIRC.

Will have to go back and check, but I don't think he even engaged one in combat.

Ok, just went back to take a look, Mace Windu kills 1.

1 single Magnaguard.

You fight 5, and then X2 fights another 2 off-screen. (You see more magnaguards enter the room after Grievous runs off.)

He does this using an Electrostaff, no melee weapons.

Which means he fights them... 3v1, 2v1, and then 2v1.

Oh, and also, Mace Windu praises X2 for his melee combat as well. "Your melee combat defies expectations, X2." - Mace Windu

That's a flipping game mechanic. You don't take those as canon, ayy LMAO. Mace is both skilled and powerful enough to casually dipsatch several MagnaGuards without much strain, in fact he has already in Obsession 5 while focusing on Tyranus.

Windu would probably also praise Kylo's skill, tbh.

Originally posted by MythLord
That's a flipping game mechanic. You don't take those as canon, ayy LMAO. Mace is both skilled and powerful enough to casually dipsatch several MagnaGuards without much strain, in fact he has already in Obsession 5 while focusing on Tyranus.

Windu would probably also praise Kylo's skill, tbh. Its not a game mechanic, its what the game goes by, those enemies are dispatched in JUST that area.

Windu would beat Kylo with a single stroke if he was serious.

All you are showing me is that X2 as a clone would take Finn, as well as Kylo Ren.

Don't try to argue game mechanics when there are scripted, canon events that take place.

The Magnaguards won't spawn, and you don't get to fight them till you're right outside Grievous door.

Its scripted, btw, Mace Windu fights Grievous only during that fight, and doesn't deviate from fighting him to help you, at all, and the same thing will happen in every playthrough no matter what you do.

You've provided no evidence for Finn's superiority over a Padawan btw, besides your argument that he was trained to fight like a Jedi, which doesn't automatically mean he fights like a Jedi.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Its not a game mechanic, its what the game goes by, those enemies are dispatched in JUST that area.

Windu would beat Kylo with a single stroke if he was serious.

All you are showing me is that X2 as a clone would take Finn, as well as Kylo Ren.

Don't try to argue game mechanics when there are scripted, canon events that take place.

The Magnaguards won't spawn, and you don't get to fight them till you're right outside Grievous door.

Its scripted, btw, Mace Windu fights Grievous only during that fight, and doesn't deviate from fighting him to help you, at all, and the same thing will happen in every playthrough no matter what you do.

You've provided no evidence for Finn's superiority over a Padawan btw, besides your argument that he was trained to fight like a Jedi, which doesn't automatically mean he fights like a Jedi.

Yeah, that's a game mechanic. It's scripted that he and Mace fought MagnaGuards and Grievous, but that doesn't mean Mace kills one and then you kill 10

So beating Finn means beating Kylo Ren? LOL, that's just ridiculous.

So your argument is:"Finn is trained to fight like a Jedi, but that doesn't mean he fights like a Jedi!" despite the fact that this is exactly what it means? So that means a padawan can take Finn, who's casually stomping Elite supersoldiers trained from birth with rigorous, Jedi-esque training, in-depth historical knowledge on all of the battles during the Clone Wars, and several combat simulations per day?

This isn't even mentioning Finn holding back or being tired in most of his fights with said FO troopers, and how he still stomped one of them in 3 seconds, and two of them in under a minute, then went on to face several Elites and best them quickly.

In a continuity where a standard Mandalorian assassin can give Obi-Wan Kenobi grief, it's hard to believe one of the absolute top supersoldiers of an Order trained from birth, and at one point in ways to combat Jedi, wouldn't beat a padawan, a Knight or a MagnaGuard?

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, that's a game mechanic. It's scripted that he and Mace fought MagnaGuards and Grievous, but that doesn't mean Mace kills one and then you kill 10

So beating Finn means beating Kylo Ren? LOL, that's just ridiculous.

So your argument is:"Finn is trained to fight like a Jedi, but that doesn't mean he fights like a Jedi!" despite the fact that this is exactly what it means? So that means a padawan can take Finn, who's casually stomping Elite supersoldiers trained from birth with rigorous, Jedi-esque training, in-depth historical knowledge on all of the battles during the Clone Wars, and several combat simulations per day?

This isn't even mentioning Finn holding back or being tired in most of his fights with said FO troopers, and how he still stomped one of them in 3 seconds, and two of them in under a minute, then went on to face several Elites and best them quickly.

In a continuity where a standard Mandalorian assassin can give Obi-Wan Kenobi grief, it's hard to believe one of the absolute top supersoldiers of an Order trained from birth, and at one point in ways to combat Jedi, wouldn't beat a padawan, a Knight or a MagnaGuard? Obi-Wan was beating the shit out of Pre-Viszla, who was the best Mandalorian.

You think Kylo Ren could take Boba Fett or Jango Fett??? Really? You think Finn would last anywhere near that?

Mmkay, what happens is, canonically, you see Mace kill 1 Magnaguard, then you fight the rest.

If Mace doesn't deviate from his fight with Grievous, it means YOU are the one killing the magnaguards. It does not let Mace help you once you get into the room with Grievous. Which means its scripted, what, are you gonna argue Revan pulling Meteors down is a game mechanic, or when he TK's the entire group?

You need to know distinctions between the two.

Yes, Zett Jukassa was doing just fine against a few of them before he got shot down, X2 soloed hundreds of them single-handedly, the stormtroopers are
nothing special, the Royal Guards are all better then them.

Also, the inconsistencies don't override the fact that the Magnaguards are above any stormtrooper.

"Well, you're saying all this about Finn, but X2 was a clone too, right?"

He was a clone of a Force Sensitive Jedi, and all the other clones were of Jango Fett.

X2 also fought off a Jedi Master on his own.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Obi-Wan was beating the shit out of Pre-Viszla, who was the best Mandalorian.

If by beating the shit into him, you mean trading physical exchanges then sure. And he's hardly the best Mandalorian.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You think Kylo Ren could take Boba Fett or Jango Fett??? Really? You think Finn would last anywhere near that?

I believe Kylo would beat them, and Finn can hang with them a bit, yes.


Originally posted by Jmanghan
Mmkay, what happens is, canonically, you see Mace kill 1 Magnaguard, then you fight the rest.

If Mace doesn't deviate from his fight with Grievous, it means YOU are the one killing the magnaguards. It does not let Mace help you once you get into the room with Grievous. Which means its scripted, what, are you gonna argue Revan pulling Meteors down is a game mechanic, or when he TK's the entire group?

You need to know distinctions between the two.

So because one video has Mace cutting down a single MagnaGuard during gameplay, that means he automatically cut down a single MagnaGuard? I'm all for scripted parts, but this isn't a scripted part and you have no proof of that other than seeing Mace slice down just one in one instance of gameplay.

In fact, it wouldn't make sense for him to kill one and then leave the rest to X2, he would've either killed none or killed quite a few. Grievous, by himself, also isn't enough to really distract Mace completely and risk him losing a fine Clone and potential Jedi.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Yes, Zett Jukassa was doing just fine against a few of them before he got shot down, X2 soloed hundreds of them single-handedly, the stormtroopers are
nothing special, the Royal Guards are all better then them.

Also, the inconsistencies don't override the fact that the Magnaguards are above any stormtrooper.

"Well, you're saying all this about Finn, but X2 was a clone too, right?"

He was a clone of a Force Sensitive Jedi, and all the other clones were of Jango Fett.

X2 also fought off a Jedi Master on his own.

I'll say it again: This isn't your Imperial Stormtrooper or Republic Clone Trooper. This is the First Order Stormtrooper that shits on the former two.

Do you not comprehend there is a difference between fodder trained to shoot down droids, and supersoldiers trained from birth and taught in melee arts with training inspired by the Jedi Order? Is that so far outside your mental capacity?

Your entire argument relies on comparing Imperials and Republic Clones to FO Stormtroopers, which have totally different training and combative capabilities.

And Kylo could fight off and kill a Jedi Maser, probably.

Originally posted by MythLord
If by beating the shit into him, you mean trading physical exchanges then sure. And he's hardly the best Mandalorian.



I believe Kylo would beat them, and Finn can hang with them a bit, yes.




So because one video has Mace cutting down a single MagnaGuard during gameplay, that means he automatically cut down a single MagnaGuard? I'm all for scripted parts, but this isn't a scripted part and you have no proof of that other than seeing Mace slice down just one in one instance of gameplay.

In fact, it wouldn't make sense for him to kill one and then leave the rest to X2, he would've either killed none or killed quite a few. Grievous, by himself, also isn't enough to really distract Mace completely and risk him losing a fine Clone and potential Jedi.



I'll say it again: This isn't your Imperial Stormtrooper or Republic Clone Trooper. This is the First Order Stormtrooper that shits on the former two.

Do you not comprehend there is a difference between fodder trained to shoot down droids, and supersoldiers trained from birth and taught in melee arts with training inspired by the Jedi Order? Is that so far outside your mental capacity?

Your entire argument relies on comparing Imperials and Republic Clones to FO Stormtroopers, which have totally different training and combative capabilities.

And Kylo could fight off and kill a Jedi Maser, probably. Its a cutscene, where Mace kills one single Magnaguard, then you go into the room Grievous is in, and you Mace starts fighting Grievous, while you start fighting the Magnaguards.

Boba and Jango have superior feats, even in canon, and if we use them in Legends, either one of them stomls, effortlessly.

You overrate these virtuly featless characters like they're better then they were portrayed, they aren't.

You're trying to make Kylo Ren out as someone who can take on Jedi Masters, ans Finn who can take on Magnaguards and Padawans, when that just isn't the case.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Its a cutscene, where Mace kills one single Magnaguard, then you go into the room Grievous is in, and you Mace starts fighting Grievous, while you start fighting the Magnaguards.

So you see Mace killing one in a cutscene, then you see Mace fighting one while you fight another in gameplay:

https://youtu.be/P71kywtisp4?t=451

Grievous is nowhere to be found, here.

When facing Grievous, there's two MagnaGuards to aid him. You fight two of them, while Mace fights Grievous:

https://youtu.be/P71kywtisp4?t=483

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Boba and Jango have superior feats, even in canon, and if we use them in Legends, either one of them stomls, effortlessly.

Kylo? LOL no. Neither one of them stomps, LMFAO.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You overrate these virtuly featless characters like they're better then they were portrayed, they aren't.

Featless? I urge you to reconsider that false statement:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/kylo-ren-respect-thread-1756638/

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/star-wars-finn-respect-thread-1756815/

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You're trying to make Kylo Ren out as someone who can take on Jedi Masters, ans Finn who can take on Magnaguards and Padawans, when that just isn't the case.

It is the case, you're just too thick-headed/ignorant/oblivious to see that.

Originally posted by MythLord
So you see Mace killing one in a cutscene, then you see Mace fighting one while you fight another in gameplay:

https://youtu.be/P71kywtisp4?t=451

Grievous is nowhere to be found, here.

When facing Grievous, there's two MagnaGuards to aid him. You fight two of them, while Mace fights Grievous:

https://youtu.be/P71kywtisp4?t=483



Kylo? LOL no. Neither one of them stomps, LMFAO.



Featless? I urge you to reconsider that false statement:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/kylo-ren-respect-thread-1756638/

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/star-wars-finn-respect-thread-1756815/



It is the case, you're just too thick-headed/ignorant/oblivious to see that.

Give you that one.

Boba was a legitimate threat to Legends Luke and Kyle Katarn, where Kyle says he barely got away with his life.

A lot of those are accolades, and his showings don't really mirror that.

Kylo got tagged by a stormtrooper, and I did see his respect thread, which, while impressive for a stormtrooper, had nothing that suggest he would even register against Rex, and it said nothing about Jedi-esque training.

Once Rey got serious, she made Ren her *****, and it was her first time ever using a lightsaber, OR the force, in combat.

Just... What even? Everyone in the other thread was saying the same ****ing thing, lol.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Boba was a legitimate threat to Legends Luke and Kyle Katarn, where Kyle says he barely got away with his life.

K, and Boba would beat Finn, and possibly Kylo. Your point?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
A lot of those are accolades, and his showings don't really mirror that.

Canonical statements > taking feats at face-value

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Kylo got tagged by a stormtrooper, and I did see his respect thread, which, while impressive for a stormtrooper, had nothing that suggest he would even register against Rex, and it said nothing about Jedi-esque training.

I forgot to add that, though I didn't edit that RT in ages. And it registers to Rex to the point of surpassing him, lol.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Once Rey got serious, she made Ren her *****, and it was her first time ever using a lightsaber, OR the force, in combat.

Let's just ignore how Rey was in a One-With-The-Force moment, and Kylo was prior to that, despite holding back and being emotionally/physically crippled, wrecking her.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Just... What even? Everyone in the other thread was saying the same ****ing thing, lol.

I think they'd register logic, by now.

Anyway, Kylo Ren is the most inconsistent dude in the history of SW.

"One of the most powerful combatants in history"

-Gsts beaten by a girl who's never trained in her life-

Girl who never trained in her life? Do you know anything about Rey? She's described as perfecting melee combat through self training on Jakku, LMAO.

Lol @ that quote.

Not that I don't buy it. Can't wait for everyone to ignore it while wanking the same shit from Maul, the B Team etc tho.

Originally posted by MythLord
K, and Boba would beat Finn, and possibly Kylo. Your point?



Canonical statements > taking feats at face-value



I forgot to add that, though I didn't edit that RT in ages. And it registers to Rex to the point of surpassing him, lol.



Let's just ignore how Rey was in a One-With-The-Force moment, and Kylo was prior to that, despite holding back and being emotionally/physically crippled, wrecking her.



I think they'd register logic, by now. It wasn't a one-with-the-force moment and you have no proof of it being so.

Taking feats at face value, what we see, is definitely above statements.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
It wasn't a one-with-the-force moment and you have no proof of it being so.

Taking feats at face value, what we see, is definitely above statements.

Yes, it was. She was getting wrecked by him before, then closes her eyes, we hear the theme music and she says "The Force" and proceeds to start wrecking, despite prior to that getting wrecked.

The novelisation also notes this, IIRC.

And statements come from the creators/narrators/Gods of the universe. They have far, far more authority than you just watching a movie then proceeding to type a factually incorrect argument on the internet.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, it was. She was getting wrecked by him before, then closes her eyes, we hear the theme music and she says "The Force" and proceeds to start wrecking, despite prior to that getting wrecked.

The novelisation also notes this, IIRC.

And statements come from the creators/narrators/Gods of the universe. They have far, far more authority than you just watching a movie then proceeding to type a factually incorrect argument on the internet. Then he's inconsistent.

Not that it matters, this is X2 we're talking about.

By the time X2 was already a Jedi, he had mastered Force Jump, took out several Royal
Guards on his own, fought off Magnaguards, 2v1 in single combat.

Oh, and it was said that Magnaguards can move at lightspeed, and know all 7 lightsaber forms.

Finn is a footnote to them.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Then he's inconsistent.

Or maybe someone's better than you expect them? You already painted a fallible hierarchy in your head, so now if something dares to change the order of said hierarchy

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Not that it matters, this is X2 we're talking about.

By the time X2 was already a Jedi, he had mastered Force Jump, took out several Royal
Guards on his own, fought off Magnaguards, 2v1 in single combat.

Oh, and it was said that Magnaguards can move at lightspeed, and know all 7 lightsaber forms.

Finn is a footnote to them.

Oh mah Gerd! Da Force Jump! it's not like dats a basic ability, or nothin'...

Kylo can beat MagnaGuards, or Royal Guards.

And lol at you taking the MagnaGuard quote of being "lightspeed" seriously. My trolling aside, I'm sure nobody believes that, and if that were true then Kenobi, Maul and Anakin should all be significantly faster than they actually are.

At best they're hypersonic+, but then you could argue the same for Ren.

Originally posted by MythLord
Or maybe someone's better than you expect them? You already painted a fallible hierarchy in your head, so now if something dares to change the order of said hierarchy



Oh mah Gerd! Da Force Jump! it's not like dats a basic ability, or nothin'...

Kylo can beat MagnaGuards, or Royal Guards.

And lol at you taking the MagnaGuard quote of being "lightspeed" seriously. My trolling aside, I'm sure nobody believes that, and if that were true then Kenobi, Maul and Anakin should all be significantly faster than they actually are.

At best they're hypersonic+, but then you could argue the same for Ren. You do know that almost every duel that happens in all mediums lasts... a second, in reality, right?

The fight between Mace and Palpatine lasted like 2 seconds because of how fast they were going, but they still had a full fight, IIRC.

If he's as good as those accolades says.

Pretty sure a single Royal Guard would give Kylo hell though, even based on what I've seen.

What I meant was, X2 did it as a rebel, the force jump, the killing Royal Guards and shit. You can lowball it all you like, but its still a very impressive feat.

If you believe all this shit then you must have Ren ranked pretty high, up there with Kyle Katarn or some shit.

Kylo Ren is hypersonic, now?

KEK.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kylo Ren is hypersonic, now?

KEK.

And apparently Finn can take on Padawan's and Magnaguards by himself, and he'd also give Jango Fett and Boba Fett a good fight.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kylo Ren is hypersonic, now?

KEK.

If we use Composite, then yes.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You do know that almost every duel that happens in all mediums lasts... a second, in reality, right?

No shit? That doesn't make them lightspeed, lmfao.


Originally posted by Jmanghan
If he's as good as those accolades says.

Then what? Finn, Ren and Rey are all pretty high in the hierarchy, in comparison to where most people place them cuz movie and face value and being ignorant of circumstances.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Pretty sure a single Royal Guard would give Kylo hell though, even based on what I've seen.

Nah, not really. Maybe if it was the Kylo who fought Finn. Two or three would give him some major grief, anything above beats him. I can agree on that.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
What I meant was, X2 did it as a rebel, the force jump, the killing Royal Guards and shit. You can lowball it all you like, but its still a very impressive feat.

I'm saying using a Force Jump isn't impressive, which it isn't. It's a basic ability.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
If you believe all this shit then you must have Ren ranked pretty high, up there with Kyle Katarn or some shit.

Nope, but nice try to lessen your humiliation by falsefully accusing me of having a stupid opinion

Kylo ain't touching Katarn... yet. We'll see what happens in Episode VIII, tho.

Originally posted by MythLord
If we use Composite, then yes.



No shit? That doesn't make them lightspeed, lmfao.




Then what? Finn, Ren and Rey are all pretty high in the hierarchy, in comparison to where most people place them cuz movie and face value and being ignorant of circumstances.



Nah, not really. Maybe if it was the Kylo who fought Finn. Two or three would give him some major grief, anything above beats him. I can agree on that.



I'm saying using a Force Jump isn't impressive, which it isn't. It's a basic ability.



Nope, but nice try to lessen your humiliation by falsefully accusing me of having a stupid opinion

Kylo ain't touching Katarn... yet. We'll see what happens in Episode VIII, tho.

Then where the hell do you have him?

Keep in mind, I've only been arguing for Clone/Rebel X2, and so far, X2 takes him, without even using a melee weapon. :/

X2 has taken 3 Royal Guards, and he's taken 2 Magnaguards by himself, and been able to stand with Grievous and not get stomped immediately, regardless of whether or not it was with Windu's help.

If we're using Jedi X2, he stomps.

Blaster bolts in canon has no confirmed speed, tbh. Needless to say, I doubt it's approaching Hypersonic at any rate.

Irl bullets can reach supersonic speeds and higher, tho.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Blaster bolts in canon has no confirmed speed, tbh. Needless to say, I doubt it's approaching Hypersonic at any rate.

Hence why I said composite. Canon characters are significantly slower than their Legends selves, for sure.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Then where the hell do you have him?

Not Kyle Katarn level. But above X2, tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Keep in mind, I've only been arguing for Clone/Rebel X2, and so far, X2 takes him, without even using a melee weapon. :/

If we're using Jedi X2, he stomps.

That's cute, Kylo ain't getting stomped by X2, lmao.

Originally posted by MythLord
Hence why I said composite. Canon characters are significantly slower than their Legends selves, for sure.



Not Kyle Katarn level. But above X2, tbh.



That's cute, Kylo ain't getting stomped by X2, lmao.

...But why isn't he though?

What is Kylo Ren going to against someone with X2's feats?

Someone who has astronomically better feats.

He fought all those guys as a clone and he improved drastically once he became a Jedi (obviously).

Your entire argument has been based on assumption that he could take this character, and that character, when he clearly has done nothing to prove that he could. Hence, your argument is pointless, you lose.

Kylo Ren has tons of accolades going for him, but none of those are nearly enough to put him close to X2.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
...But why isn't he though?

What is Kylo Ren going to against someone with X2's feats?

Someone who has astronomically better feats.

He fought all those guys as a clone and he improved drastically once he became a Jedi (obviously).

Your entire argument has been based on assumption that he could take this character, and that character, when he clearly has done nothing to prove that he could. Hence, your argument is pointless, you lose.

Kylo Ren has tons of accolades going for him, but none of those are nearly enough to put him close to X2.

You've been ignoring me this entire conversation, haven't you? You essentially just keep regurgitating the same argument, but phrased differently. You can either continue making me run in circles or concede.

But anyways, stomping the absolute best of an Order of supersoldiers trained to face Jedi, that go through rigorous training simulations several times per day since birth, for decades on end, and his superior -- is better than fighting a Jedi Master, fighting a MagnaGuard, learning to use Force Jump and then improving.

Of course, Ren also has feats of slaughtering several Jedi Knights, which easily surpasses killing a MagnaGuard or two.

Originally posted by MythLord
You've been ignoring me this entire conversation, haven't you? You essentially just keep regurgitating the same argument, but phrased differently. You can either continue making me run in circles or concede.

But anyways, stomping the absolute best of an Order of supersoldiers trained to face Jedi, that go through rigorous training simulations several times per day since birth, for decades on end, and his superior -- is better than fighting a Jedi Master, fighting a MagnaGuard, learning to use Force Jump and then improving.

Of course, Ren also has feats of slaughtering several Jedi Knights, which easily surpasses killing a MagnaGuard or two. Magnaguards have killed several Jedi Knights in single combat. :/

I don't think you know anything about Magnaguards besides what you've watched in shows and movies.

Uh, no, it isn't, Kylo Ren stomping Finn, whose best feat is being the best of the First Order Stormtroopers, isn't better then beating a Jedi Master and taking on 2 Magnaguards as a clone, it just isn't. And everyone, Literally EVERYONE agrees.

Everyone... EVERYONE is disagreeing with you on Finn.

No one, absolutely NO ONE thinks he has what it takes to take on any Jedi.

Btw, I was looking through it, and Imperial Stormtroopers have exactly the same training as First Order Stormtroopers, just that they do it since birth, and Imperial Stormtroopers do it for about 2-3 years, the First Order Stormtroopers aren't nearly as impressive as you're making them out to be.

Again, those are the feats of JUST Clone/Rebel X2, he hasn't even become a Jedi by that point.

Come up with something more the his accolades and stomping Finn, or you lose. Thats just plain how it is, Kylo Ren stomping Finn doesn't even put him remotely in the same league as X2.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Magnaguards have killed several Jedi Knights in single combat. :/

Yeah, several of them against one. Your average MagnaGuard = your average Jedi Knight.
And this isn't just "several Jedi", it's literally dozens.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I don't think you know anything about Magnaguards besides what you've watched in shows and movies.

Um... check that again:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/wollfmyth209/blog/overview-on-magnaguards-skills-in-combat/107510/

I'm the one who made that, broski.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Uh, no, it isn't, Kylo Ren stomping Finn, whose best feat is being the best of the First Order Stormtroopers, isn't better then beating a Jedi Master and taking on 2 Magnaguards as a clone, it just isn't. And everyone, Literally EVERYONE agrees.

Nobody has yet to stand up for X2 regarding a fight between him and Kylo Ren, so that whole "EVERYONE" thing isn't a factor. Try winning adebate on the merit of your own arguments, not just blindly following the vast majority.

And sure simply beating Finn probably isn't better. But stomping him, while at the same time being emotionally and physically crippled? Certainly is a better feat,

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Everyone... EVERYONE is disagreeing with you on Finn.

No one, absolutely NO ONE thinks he has what it takes to take on any Jedi.

Stop with the bandwagon fallacy, already. EVERYONE who disagrees with me can stand up and defend their own case/counter mine. Such hasn't happened yet, and so far several users do freely and openly agree with my case on Finn.

What some other users think is still irrelevant here because it's not them debating me, it's you, and so far your arguments are some of the most cringe-worthy I've seen.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Btw, I was looking through it, and Imperial Stormtroopers have exactly the same training as First Order Stormtroopers, just that they do it since birth, and Imperial Stormtroopers do it for about 2-3 years, the First Order Stormtroopers aren't nearly as impressive as you're making them out to be.

No, they don't have the same training. Their training isn't inspired by the Jedi, their training doesn't include several rigorous training sessions since birth on a daily basis, their training(for the most part) doesn't dwell into high-tier melee combat, etc.

It's not the same thing, something that cannot get through your cranium.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, several of them against one. Your average MagnaGuard = your average Jedi Knight.
And this isn't just "several Jedi", it's literally dozens.



Um... check that again:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/wollfmyth209/blog/overview-on-magnaguards-skills-in-combat/107510/

I'm the one who made that, broski.



Nobody has yet to stand up for X2 regarding a fight between him and Kylo Ren, so that whole "EVERYONE" thing isn't a factor. Try winning adebate on the merit of your own arguments, not just blindly following the vast majority.

And sure simply beating Finn probably isn't better. But stomping him, while at the same time being emotionally and physically crippled? Certainly is a better feat,



Stop with the bandwagon fallacy, already. EVERYONE who disagrees with me can stand up and defend their own case/counter mine. Such hasn't happened yet, and so far several users do freely and openly agree with my case on Finn.

What some other users think is still irrelevant here because it's not them debating me, it's you, and so far your arguments are some of the most cringe-worthy I've seen.



No, they don't have the same training. Their training isn't inspired by the Jedi, their training doesn't include several rigorous training sessions since birth on a daily basis, their training(for the most part) doesn't dwell into high-tier melee combat, etc.

It's not the same thing, something that cannot get through your cranium. Finn isn't impressive enough as a single entity to make Kylo Ren stomping him better.

You openly admitted he couldn't take a Jedi Knight.

As a Clone/Rebel, X2 was taking on multiple Magnaguards, as well as multiple Royal Guards. You just admitted that Kylo Ren would lose to more then 3 Royal Guards, and X2 has taken on more then that by himself as a rebel.

I don't recall a Jedi ever being tagged by a Stormtrooper, of any kind.

You have been spouting all this Jedi-esque bs and have yet to post it btw, not denying it exists, but it'd be better if you posted it.

I saw Finn's respect thread, and his training aside, he hasn't done anything impressive besides tag Kylo Ren when he was holding back.

Here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t627711.html

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Finn isn't impressive enough as a single entity to make Kylo Ren stomping him better.

You openly admitted he couldn't take a Jedi Knight.

As a Clone/Rebel, X2 was taking on multiple Magnaguards, as well as multiple Royal Guards. You just admitted that Kylo Ren would lose to more then 3 Royal Guards, and X2 has taken on more then that by himself as a rebel.

I don't recall a Jedi ever being tagged by a Stormtrooper, of any kind.

You have been spouting all this Jedi-esque bs and have yet to post it btw, not denying it exists, but it'd be better if you posted it.

I saw Finn's respect thread, and his training aside, he hasn't done anything impressive besides tag Kylo Ren when he was holding back.

Here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t627711.html

Yes he has, you keep denying it.

When did I admit that? I admitted he cannot take a Master, and would probably lose to a Knight, but he'd give them hell.

Ah, it's from the Official Star Wars G+ page(not the community, the page run by the Disney administrators):

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5277052-9345438885-bandi.png

Regarding X2's feat: He didn't beat them CQC, he shot at them with blaster fire. So he's a skilled marksman, has nothing to do with his dueling capabilities. He also didn't fight 4 of them at the same time, if Kylo fought ten of then, one-at-a-time, he'd win. If he gets gang-banged, he'd lose.

The only other time he fought them, would be when he faced X1, and even then those weren't Palpatine's Royal Guards(i.e. the ones I think can take Kylo if there's multiple of them), and they weren't wielding their standard weaponry, but rather blasters, which X2 as a Jedi can logically deflect and cut through. Nothing Kylo isn't capable of doing.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yes he has, you keep denying it.

When did I admit that? I admitted he cannot take a Master, and would probably lose to a Knight, but he'd give them hell.

Ah, it's from the Official Star Wars G+ page(not the community, the page run by the Disney administrators):

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5277052-9345438885-bandi.png

Regarding X2's feat: He didn't beat them CQC, he shot at them with blaster fire. So he's a skilled marksman, has nothing to do with his dueling capabilities. He also didn't fight 4 of them at the same time, if Kylo fought ten of then, one-at-a-time, he'd win. If he gets gang-banged, he'd lose.

The only other time he fought them, would be when he faced X1, and even then those weren't Palpatine's Royal Guards(i.e. the ones I think can take Kylo if there's multiple of them), and they weren't wielding their standard weaponry, but rather blasters, which X2 as a Jedi can logically deflect and cut through. Nothing Kylo isn't capable of doing. X1 took over RIGHT where Palpatine left off, maybe a day or two after Palpatine's death, though the army's morale wasn't nearly the same.

Ok, without referencing Finn's training, which shouldn't matter against someone "like Kylo Ren".

Tell me what Finn has done, that makes stomping him while injured impressive?

I've been presenting my argument, and you just keep saying "Well, Finn was trained in the Jedi Arts and he was the best of the First Order Stormtroopers".

But besides injuring an injured Kylo Ren who was holding back, what has he done?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Blaster bolts in canon has no confirmed speed, tbh. Needless to say, I doubt it's approaching Hypersonic at any rate.

I remember seeing some long ass nerdy calc somewhere proclaiming that the blaster bolts in the movies were a little over the speed of the best pitchers in the MLB. Given that the very best batters in the world bat, what? .300-.400? And Jedi bat away like a dozen+ in like every scene, if we take that calc at face value, Jedi are definitely superhuman, but not by a great deal.

Originally posted by MythLord
Regarding X2's feat: He didn't beat them CQC, he shot at them with blaster fire. So he's a skilled marksman, has nothing to do with his dueling capabilities. He also didn't fight 4 of them at the same time, if Kylo fought ten of then, one-at-a-time, he'd win. If he gets gang-banged, he'd lose.
He took on the Magnaguards and Grievous alongside Windu in close-quarters combat. That was specifically stated.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
X1 took over RIGHT where Palpatine left off, maybe a day or two after Palpatine's death, though the army's morale wasn't nearly the same.

Ok, without referencing Finn's training, which shouldn't matter against someone "like Kylo Ren".

Tell me what Finn has done, that makes stomping him while injured impressive?

I've been presenting my argument, and you just keep saying "Well, Finn was trained in the Jedi Arts and he was the best of the First Order Stormtroopers".

But besides injuring an injured Kylo Ren who was holding back, what has he done?

And? Those still weren't Palpatine's Royal Guards, and like you say their moral was significantly less.

What has Finn done? How about stomping one of the best FO Stormtroopers in three seconds? Stomping 2 in under a minute? Stomping several other Elites one after anothers, some even enraged and wielding superior weaponry, while he was getting tired and holding back.

How about being an exemplary soldier, who casually succeeded in the "rigorous" training sessions of the First Order?

How about having an in-depth knowledge on several, if not all, battles of the Clone Wars?

And of course being trained similarly to Jedi in terms of melee combat, which is also an extreme feat.

I'm mentioning why Kylo's more impressive.

Originally posted by MythLord
And? Those still weren't Palpatine's Royal Guards, and like you say their moral was significantly less.

What has Finn done? How about stomping one of the best FO Stormtroopers in three seconds? Stomping 2 in under a minute? Stomping several other Elites one after anothers, some even enraged and wielding superior weaponry, while he was getting tired and holding back.

How about being an exemplary soldier, who casually succeeded in the "rigorous" training sessions of the First Order?

How about having an in-depth knowledge on several, if not all, battles of the Clone Wars?

And of course being trained similarly to Jedi in terms of melee combat, which is also an extreme feat.

I'm mentioning why Kylo's more impressive. They were, those were his guards, because they use the same equipment earlier on.

Thats cool. Anything else? Because as far as I can tell, it still doesn't beat X2's feat of slaughtering over 50 Imperial Stormtroopers in a single battle, along with Vader's personal droid bodyguard, on a dark side nexus, while X2 is a lightsider.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
They were, those were his guards, because they use the same equipment earlier on.

They weren't Palpatine's royal guard.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Thats cool. Anything else? Because as far as I can tell, it still doesn't beat X2's feat of slaughtering over 50 Imperial Stormtroopers in a single battle, along with Vader's personal droid bodyguard, on a dark side nexus, while X2 is a lightsider.

Great, you proved to me that X2 is better than Finn, he's still below Kylo.

Originally posted by MythLord
They weren't Palpatine's royal guard.



Great, you proved to me that X2 is better than Finn, he's still below Kylo.
"No they aren't" = Your argument.

Kylo isn't taking on 50 stormtroopers and Vader's personal guard.

Pong Krell, with all the advantages, and the element of surprise, wasn't able to take out the group that was sent after him.

If that isn't enough for you, X2 fought off a bunch of Nightsisters on Dathomir, then killed their Leader's pet rancor, while she was riding it, and proceeded to defeat their leader, who was powerful enough for X2 to sense her power from far away.

What you are arguing is ridiculous, Finn isn't worth more then 10-15 Stormtroopers, and he hasn't done anything to suggest he is.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
"No they aren't" = Your argument.

Because they aren't. The Royal Guard stay loyal to Palpatine, and Palpatine only.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Kylo isn't taking on 50 stormtroopers and Vader's personal guard.

Pong Krell, with all the advantages, and the element of surprise, wasn't able to take out the group that was sent after him.

At the same time? Maybe not. One or several at a time? He sure as hell will.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
If that isn't enough for you, X2 fought off a bunch of Nightsisters on Dathomir, then killed their Leader's pet rancor, while she was riding it, and proceeded to defeat their leader, who was powerful enough for X2 to sense her power from far away.

And I doubt that's something outside of Kylo's capabilities, if I'm being frank. A Jedi Knight > a Nightsister, and he's killed dozens of them.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
What you are arguing is ridiculous, Finn isn't worth more then 10-15 Stormtroopers, and he hasn't done anything to suggest he is.

Because he is worth more. Him consistently beating several of Elite Stormtroopers much better than a standard Imperial One, while tired and holding back, in a small amount of time suggests so.

X2 is like those guys like Hero of Umbara.

Originally posted by MythLord
Because they aren't. The Royal Guard stay loyal to Palpatine, and Palpatine only.



At the same time? Maybe not. One or several at a time? He sure as hell will.



And I doubt that's something outside of Kylo's capabilities, if I'm being frank. A Jedi Knight > a Nightsister, and he's killed dozens of them.



Because he is worth more. Him consistently beating several of Elite Stormtroopers much better than a standard Imperial One, while tired and holding back, in a small amount of time suggests so.

No?... Carnor Jax and Kir Kanos fought for this same reason, and the ONLY source we have is the game and its Wookiepedia page, and the Wookiepedia page lists the Emporer's Royal Guard as the ones who fought X2 early in the Galactic Civil War, AND the ones that help X1 in the Battle of Mustafar.

But you don't know that, Pong Krell was put in the same situation, in fact, a more advantageous one, and there weren't nearly as many, although Krell still managed to get captured.

The Nightsisters, along with Ventress, were able to push Dooku, and were fighting just as hard as Ventress was.

Not even mentioning he beat their Matriarch, who was powerful enough that she left a Dark Side aura through-out the area she was in, and just before that, her pet rancor, while she was riding it.

For now, Finn stomping a bunch of his peers, who are also stormtroopers, just isn't good enough.

There's nothing that shows their VAST superiority besides their extensive learning of melee combat. Despite them learning the "Jedi Arts", it can't put them on the level of your average Jedi Knight.

The magnaguards are vastly superior, and I'm surprised you dunno why.

They are faster, more durable, have superior weaponry, and actually have the capabilities to utilize the 7 lightsaber forms of combat. You, being the one who made a respect thread, should know this.

You keep trying to say that stomping Finn while injured is a superior feat to X2 fighting multiple nightsisters by himself, and then fighting their powerful leader in single combat and beating her, just before, killing her pet rancor.

@BazookaMaster, I guess? But Idk, X2 has a definitive identity, and by the end of the game, we know quite a bit about him, we see his entire life story, and his missions are all listed as official missions in Galactic History.

The Royal Guard are loyal to Palpatine yeah, but when he died the 1st time, his remaining Guardsmen either served warlords, followed their own paths or went back to their old Stormtrooper unit. X1 I believe was one of those Imperial warlords yes? So there ya go, though when Palps came back, they all flocked to serve him again.

Then when he died for the final time, the remaining 21 Guardsmen then returned to Yinchorr to mourn their Emperor only to find out that Carnor Jax had betrayed them and the Emperor. They swore to kill the traitor, they were then attacked by an overwhelming number of Stormtroopers, killing all of them expect Kir Kanos who was then the last remaining Guardsmen to avenge their Emperor.

Alright, got it? Good, hope that cleared everything up.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The Royal Guard are loyal to Palpatine yeah, but when he died the 1st time, his remaining Guardsmen either served warlords, followed their own paths or went back to their old Stormtrooper unit. X1 I believe was one of those Imperial warlords yes? So there ya go, though when Palps came back, they all flocked to serve him again.

Then when he died for the final time, the remaining 21 Guardsmen then returned to Yinchorr to mourn their Emperor only to find out that Carnor Jax had betrayed them and the Emperor. They swore to kill the traitor, they were then attacked by an overwhelming number of Stormtroopers, killing all of them expect Kir Kanos who was then the last remaining Guardsmen to avenge their Emperor.

Alright, got it? Good, hope that cleared everything up.

There were more traitors then Jax, though, weren't there?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
There were more traitors then Jax, though, weren't there?

As far as Royal Guards during the time? No it was just Jax.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
No?... Carnor Jax and Kir Kanos fought for this same reason, and the ONLY source we have is the game and its Wookiepedia page, and the Wookiepedia page lists the Emporer's Royal Guard as the ones who fought X2 early in the Galactic Civil War, AND the ones that help X1 in the Battle of Mustafar.

And with this, I'm done with you. You're no longer worthy of my attention, you used Wookiepedia, as a source.

Congratulations, you are the SirFizzWhizz of the KMC community, you must be very proud.

Originally posted by MythLord
And with this, I'm done with you. You're no longer worthy of my attention, you used Wookiepedia, as a source.

Congratulations, you are the SirFizzWhizz of the KMC community, you must be very proud. I'm not using it as a source, I'm just saying thats what it says.

Zenwolf backed up my argument as well

Are you going to address any of my other points?

Cause if not, concession accepted.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I'm not using it as a source, I'm just saying thats what it says.

Why? It's an irrelevant, often wrong source.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Zenwolf backed up my argument as well

I still don't buy it being Palpatine's elite Royal Guards. They don't even have their traditional weaponry.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Are you going to address any of my other points?

Cause if not, concession accepted.

You probably just regurgitated an argument I already countered, in a new form. I had enough cancer from you yesterday, I don't need more today.

But by all means, save face by saying "concession accepted" like the lowlife you are.

Congratulations, this feeling of inadequacy is your reward.

Originally posted by MythLord
Why? It's an irrelevant, often wrong source.



I still don't buy it being Palpatine's elite Royal Guards. They don't even have their traditional weaponry.



You probably just regurgitated an argument I already countered, in a new form. I had enough cancer from you yesterday, I don't need more today.

But by all means, save face by saying "concession accepted" like the lowlife you are.

Congratulations, this feeling of inadequacy is your reward.

Your only point is that Finn's training somehow puts him above a Padawan, and based on showings he's had against other stormtroopers. :/

Thats the same point you keep going over, continuously.

When X2 had done much more impressive things as a clone himself, much less what he did as a Jedi.

Studying the Jedi Arts, having a grueling training regimen, and stomping his peers that have also studied the same stuff he has, doesn't put him above a nameless Padawan, much less someone like Zett Jukassa.

I just re-watched Rey vs Kylo Ren, and just so you know, calling upon the Force, and having a one-with-the-force moment, are 2 VERY different things.

Just as well, earlier in the fight, Rey had used the force, which overpowered Kylo's btw, to get Anakin's lightsaber.

As for the Royal Guards, when they walk in with X1, there is a cutscene, the Royal Guards are holding Force Pikes.

Just as well, for people who don't own the books, wookiepedia can be reliable IF and ONLY if they cite their sources, and you confirm their sources.

How can you confirm if you don't own the books?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How can you confirm if you don't own the books? the google.books thing.

I read some parts from FOTJ, but thats about it so far, I've already listened to an Audiobook of TOR: Revan.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Your only point is that Finn's training somehow puts him above a Padawan, and based on showings he's had against other stormtroopers. :/

Thats the same point you keep going over, continuously.

When X2 had done much more impressive things as a clone himself, much less what he did as a Jedi.

Studying the Jedi Arts, having a grueling training regimen, and stomping his peers that have also studied the same stuff he has, doesn't put him above a nameless Padawan, much less someone like Zett Jukassa.

I just re-watched Rey vs Kylo Ren, and just so you know, calling upon the Force, and having a one-with-the-force moment, are 2 VERY different things.

Just as well, earlier in the fight, Rey had used the force, which overpowered Kylo's btw, to get Anakin's lightsaber.

As for the Royal Guards, when they walk in with X1, there is a cutscene, the Royal Guards are holding Force Pikes.

Yeah, imagine how I see someone trained from birth to fight and kill Jedi, and stomped beings with similar training in killing Jedi, can kill a Jedi.

Why, it's almost like I use logic, which by now is a foreign concept to you, I'm certain.

And you need to read a book, for once. The novel describes how Rey had suddenly had a change in her, and attacked viciously beyond even what she thought she'd be capable of. She was experiencing a one with the Force moment. For further reference:



The Force Awakens Junior Novelisation notes how Ren senses Rey suddenly getting fueled by an emotion stronger than his rage:




At least attempt to have common knowledge of Star Wars, and how the Force works.

The fact that she had an easier time calling upon the Force than Ren did, only makes it that much more impressive for Kylo to drive her back, while holding back and being emotionally and physically weakened to the point of fatality.

Keeping in mind, Rey has perfected the art of melee combat and has surpassed troopers trained to fight and kill Jedi.

The weapons they used against X2 weren't Force Pikes, though. They were blasters, and defeating a blaster wielder, for even non Force sensitives with lightsabers, shouldn't be hard.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, imagine how I see someone trained from birth to fight and kill Jedi, and stomped beings with similar training in killing Jedi, can kill a Jedi.

Why, it's almost like I use logic, which by now is a foreign concept to you, I'm certain.

And you need to read a book, for once. The novel describes how Rey had suddenly had a change in her, and attacked viciously beyond even what she thought she'd be capable of. She was experiencing a one with the Force moment. For further reference:



The Force Awakens Junior Novelisation notes how Ren senses Rey suddenly getting fueled by an emotion stronger than his rage:




At least attempt to have common knowledge of Star Wars, and how the Force works.

The fact that she had an easier time calling upon the Force than Ren did, only makes it that much more impressive for Kylo to drive her back, while holding back and being emotionally and physically weakened to the point of fatality.

Keeping in mind, Rey has perfected the art of melee combat and has surpassed troopers trained to fight and kill Jedi.

The weapons they used against X2 weren't Force Pikes, though. They were blasters, and defeating a blaster wielder, for even non Force sensitives with lightsabers, shouldn't be hard.

Uh, the Royal Guards had mastered every conceivable weapon in the Galaxy.

What you pointed out there? Thats not Oneness.

Being trained to kill Jedi does not automatically equal being able to kill Jedi.

They aren't the only ones who were trained "how to kill Jedi".

Almost all the Separatists, CIS, and Imperial forces were trained and programmed "how to kill Jedi".

It doesn't mean they were good at it.

Royal Guards, Inquisitors, Magnaguards, Clone and Stormtroopers.

And Rey had earlier on overpowered Ren's TK on the lightsaber.

Calling on the force and getting Oneness (which you can't get whenever you want btw) are very different things, again.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Uh, the Royal Guards had mastered every conceivable weapon in the Galaxy.

And? They're still at a disadvantage since they're facing a lightsaber wielder with a blaster.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
What you pointed out there? Thats not Oneness.

Yeah, it is. It's perfectly synonymous with other descriptions of Oneness we've got. In any case, it shows Rey got an amplification through abusing the Force in a way she never thought of before, she became fueled by something even Kylo couldn't comprehend and she herself didn't expect to be so vicious and effective.

No matter how you spin it, she was amplified. The only time Jedi gain such amplifications is when entering in a state comparable to that of Oneness. Prior to that, she's using the Force to resist Kylo, but still fails.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Being trained to kill Jedi does not automatically equal being able to kill Jedi.

They aren't the only ones who were trained "how to kill Jedi".

Almost all the Separatists, CIS, and Imperial forces were trained and programmed "how to kill Jedi".

It doesn't mean they were good at it.

Royal Guards, Inquisitors, Magnaguards, Clone and Stormtroopers.

Yeah, it does equate to them being capable of that. That's called logic.

Clone and Stormtroopers aren't specifically trained to fight Jedi, lmao. They're trained soldiers and marksmen, not melee fighters. And how they overcome Jedi is through sheer number.

The First Order Stormtroopers overcome the Jedi through sheer skill and quality in melee combat. And why did you point out Royal Guards, MagnaGuards and Inquisitors? All of them are equal/superior to standard Jedi Knights.

And a feat you keep ignoring is Kylo slaughtering dozens of these Jedi Knights, thus he's clearly substantially above a standard MagnaGuard, an Inquisitor, or Royal Guard.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
And Rey had earlier on overpowered Ren's TK on the lightsaber.

Calling on the force and getting Oneness (which you can't get whenever you want btw) are very different things, again.

As I said, that makes it better for Kylo because he's stomping someone who can draw on the Force to a greater extent than he can.

And it's Oneness, or a form of amplification that Rey hadn't experienced before.

Beneath Fohargh

Originally posted by MythLord
And? They're still at a disadvantage since they're facing a lightsaber wielder with a blaster.



Yeah, it is. It's perfectly synonymous with other descriptions of Oneness we've got. In any case, it shows Rey got an amplification through abusing the Force in a way she never thought of before, she became fueled by something even Kylo couldn't comprehend and she herself didn't expect to be so vicious and effective.

No matter how you spin it, she was amplified. The only time Jedi gain such amplifications is when entering in a state comparable to that of Oneness. Prior to that, she's using the Force to resist Kylo, but still fails.



Yeah, it does equate to them being capable of that. That's called logic.

Clone and Stormtroopers aren't specifically trained to fight Jedi, lmao. They're trained soldiers and marksmen, not melee fighters. And how they overcome Jedi is through sheer number.

The First Order Stormtroopers overcome the Jedi through sheer skill and quality in melee combat. And why did you point out Royal Guards, MagnaGuards and Inquisitors? All of them are equal/superior to standard Jedi Knights.

And a feat you keep ignoring is Kylo slaughtering dozens of these Jedi Knights, thus he's clearly substantially above a standard MagnaGuard, an Inquisitor, or Royal Guard.



As I said, that makes it better for Kylo because he's stomping someone who can draw on the Force to a greater extent than he can.

And it's Oneness, or a form of amplification that Rey hadn't experienced before. I guess? But they were better then everyone else, so its still impressive.

No it isn't, it doesn't even remotely resemble Oneness.

Kylo slaughtering random Jedi Knights is impressive, but it doesn't put him above X2.

So, Rey, someone who had never ever used the force, is above Ren?

Thanks for the evidence.

Jman, don't you have the stance that opinions shouldn't be changed?

I recall you criticizing me for changing my views on Revan vs Plagueis.

If so, what's the point of debating if you don't want Wollf to change his mind and you don't want to change yours either?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Jman, don't you have the stance that opinions shouldn't be changed?

I recall you criticizing me for changing my views on Revan vs Plagueis.

If so, what's the point of debating if you don't want Wollf to change his mind and you don't want to change yours either? What I believe is, if no powers have changed, and no new things have been added, then why change your opinion?

And yeah, I know there's a novel now where Kylo Ren does some shit, but the people he fights are shit combatants aside from the Jedi Knights.

Rey is untrained.

Just as well, after what you've seen, don't act like Kylo Ren actually has a chance in this, he doesn't.

Finn is a shit combatant, and so is Rey, and Kylo stomped one, while he got destroyed by another.

Logically, X2 is above him because of a his superior showings and feats, as a CLONE much less as a Jedi.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
What I believe is, if no powers have changed, and no new things have been added, then why change your opinion?
Right. So why debate in the first place?

If you won't change your opinion, and don't want Wollf to either, it's literally pointless.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Right. So why debate in the first place?

If you won't change your opinion, and don't want Wollf to either, it's literally pointless.

I see your point.