Where to rank Kit Fisto and/or Shaak Ti?

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chingchangwalla
I have always been undecided on Fisto and the Shaak hype is gross, time to put her in her place.

Syndicate
Fisto approaches the higher tiers in dueling skill and is moderately powerful. One of the best highs council members.

Shaak is a decently powerful force user who like Fisto approaches the higher tiers in dueling skill ( at least as of TFU ) I'd place her above him due to her force edge though I'd favor Fisto slightly if it was lightsabers only.

SunRazer
Shaak does use Makashi, IIRC. That could give her the edge over Kit in a lightsaber duels, but I agree that Kit is faster and more skilled.

chingchangwalla
May I ask how Shaak gets the force edge? Fisto isn't just some sabers guy, he's a consular first and foremost :/

Selenial
Because she has superior force feats?

She's got superior duelling feats too, tbh. Better hype and a far more relevant form, she beats him in ever category.

SunRazer
Huh? This isn't about him having a green saber, is it?

chingchangwalla
No?

SunRazer
Then what source declares that Kit Fisto is a Consular?

chingchangwalla
In his starwars wikia entry.

MythLord
Shaak and Kit are pretty high up on the Council, besides Obi, Annie, Mace and Yoda they're probably the best.

But in regards to who'd win a fight between the two, Shaak definitely. Fisto's only edge is speed.

chingchangwalla
Makashi vs Shii-Cho. Any competent Makashi user should win tbh, although I like Fisto's chances with two sabers. Don't ask me why :/

Selenial
She'd also beat him with Ataru smile

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Selenial
She'd also beat him with Ataru smile

Oh no... Jensaarai fan

|King Joker|
She'd probably accidentally gut herself

Selenial
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Oh no... Jensaarai fan

Name a single duelling feat Kit has that places him above her.

Note that his form isn't just weak to Makashi, it's weak against every other form. He compensated for the weaknesses of his form with staggering speed, he's genuinely an insanely quick and insanely talented Duellist, but anyone approaching him with speed or skill will win a contest due to the form disadvantage he has.

He's a talented Lightsaber wielder, that doesn't make him a phenomenal duellist.

Selenial
Joker just mad I've been shitting on Ahsoka recently smile

I'm guessing your lack of ability to actually engage me in a debate leads to quips to make yourself feel better smile

Q99
Originally posted by MythLord
Shaak and Kit are pretty high up on the Council, besides Obi, Annie, Mace and Yoda they're probably the best.


Yea, they're in the elite of the council IMO, go-to troubleshooters.

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Selenial
Name a single duelling feat Kit has that places him above her.

Note that his form isn't just weak to Makashi, it's weak against every other form. He compensated for the weaknesses of his form with staggering speed, he's genuinely an insanely quick and insanely talented Duellist, but anyone approaching him with speed or skill will win a contest due to the form disadvantage he has.

He's a talented Lightsaber wielder, that doesn't make him a phenomenal duellist.

Yes, all valid points but speed isn't exactly his only asset :/

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Selenial
Joker just mad I've been shitting on Ahsoka recently smile

I'm guessing your lack of ability to actually engage me in a debate leads to quips to make yourself feel better smile Why do you think everything is about you, dear? smile

Ziggystardust
Shaak in her prime wins this decently, and then goes on to stomp Ashoka.

Selenial
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Yes, all valid points but speed isn't exactly his only asset :/

Against Shaak Ti, it is.

It's the only area he surpasses her, and even that is debatable.

chingchangwalla
Would giving Fisto two sabers make any difference at all?

Selenial
Probably not.

It helped him with Grievous' offence, but Shaak Ti isn't Grievous. I doubt Fisto is more skilled win two, he would have used two all the time if he was.

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Selenial
Probably not.

It helped him with Grievous' offence, but Shaak Ti isn't Grievous. I doubt Fisto is more skilled win two, he would have used two all the time if he was.

Nice thumb up
I think it's established here that Shaak wins but they are on the same skill level right? Just above likes of Koon, Kolar, Mundi?

McP
Ti is just better suited against Kit. That doesn't necessary mean, that she should be rank higher.

McP
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Nice thumb up
I think it's established here that Shaak wins but they are on the same skill level right? Just above likes of Koon, Kolar, Mundi?

I wouldn't say, that Ti or Kit are above Koon or Kolar. More like the same league.

chingchangwalla
Koon is good, but he's fairly slow-ish. Against Kit/Shaak it's suicide, and what has Kolar done?!

ILS
Fisto's style is pretty context-dependent, it'll cause havoc for Grievous, his Magnaguards and in general anyone who responds poorly to high speed, randomised assaults. Meanwhile a Makashi practitioner like Ventress is going to have an edge over Fisto (though apparently she studied his style before they fought?). Other than that, Fisto's brand of Shii-Cho has no noted inherent weaknesses to other forms or any glaring issues we can interpret from the material. "It wasn't designed for dueling" clearly isn't an excuse because Fisto manages just fine using it as a dueling form.

I'm sceptical if Ti can actually make use of Makashi to undermine Kit, given the disparity in their accomplishments. Slapping a not-fully-charged TCW Grievous around with visible ease versus getting destroyed by OCW Grievous perhaps isn't the fairest comparison to make, but it's near enough the only one we have. Other than that, Fisto was chosen over Ti for the B-team and Ti is regarded as lower than Cin Drallig at the time of RotS by a couple of sourcebooks. I'd say by RotS Fisto is certainly beyond RotS Ti.

Whether she improved enough by TFU to surpass him, I'm not totally sure, and it's also a case of determining what version of TFU's Felucia battle you rely on. The Graphic Novel outright suggests that Felucia is a Dark-sided environment and Ti is a lone beacon of the Light Side. The novel suggests that Ti's Light Side practice over the years has "stifled" the Dark Side's ability to manifest in the area, which weakened Marek. And obviously the duels are visibly different from source to source.

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by ILS
Fisto's style is pretty context-dependent, it'll cause havoc for Grievous, his Magnaguards and in general anyone who responds poorly to high speed, randomised assaults. Meanwhile a Makashi practitioner like Ventress is going to have an edge over Fisto (though apparently she studied his style before they fought?). Other than that, Fisto's brand of Shii-Cho has no noted inherent weaknesses to other forms or any glaring issues we can interpret from the material. "It wasn't designed for dueling" clearly isn't an excuse because Fisto manages just fine using it as a dueling form.

I'm sceptical if Ti can actually make use of Makashi to undermine Kit, given the disparity in their accomplishments. Slapping a not-fully-charged TCW Grievous around with visible ease versus getting destroyed by OCW Grievous perhaps isn't the fairest comparison to make, but it's near enough the only one we have. Other than that, Fisto was chosen over Ti for the B-team and Ti is regarded as lower than Cin Drallig at the time of RotS by a couple of sourcebooks. I'd say by RotS Fisto is certainly beyond RotS Ti.

Whether she improved enough by TFU to surpass him, I'm not totally sure, and it's also a case of determining what version of TFU's Felucia battle you rely on. The Graphic Novel outright suggests that Felucia is a Dark-sided environment and Ti is a lone beacon of the Light Side. The novel suggests that Ti's Light Side practice over the years has "stifled" the Dark Side's ability to manifest in the area, which weakened Marek. And obviously the duels are visibly different from source to source.

My love goes out to you for this <3

MythLord
When did Kit slap TCW GG silly? I recall him using the environment to gain the advantage, and SW.com stating Grievous was overwhelming him.

Shaak was placed to guard the Jedi Temple as a legitimate plan B if Mace and co failed. That might be because he ranks her tactical abilities above Fisto's.

There's only one sourcebook that says Cin > Shaak, IIRC and even then it's ambiguous who it's referring to. And that'd be more good for Drallig, than bad for Ti.

chingchangwalla
He was never losing the grievous fight. He did use the environment to his advantage once and then there was a blade lock, he cut off Grievous' hand and then pushed grievous back with two sabers. Kit smacked him into the ground with a force push like a little ***** then contended with 3 magnaguards

ILS
Originally posted by MythLord
When did Kit slap TCW GG silly? I recall him using the environment to gain the advantage, and SW.com stating Grievous was overwhelming him. He only used the environment to begin with, then blade-locked and monologued to Grievous. After that he cut one of his arms off, slashed his armor and Force pushed him to the ground. After that it was quite even until the MGs showed up. Link to SW.com's quote? I haven't seen it yet.
Well, here's my take on it; Mace selected the very strongest combatants of those available to defeat Sidious (bearing in mind that in Legends, this was a team that had already been in place circa AotC, going by the Republic comics where Windu assembles the same team for a different operation).

Then we have the temple defence, which is led by Ti and Drallig, with Drallig being the superior blademaster out of the two. Your theory of Shaak being present because of superior tactical ability may have some merit, but it doesn't explain why Drallig, Shaak's superior, was left behind to defend the temple instead of fighting Sidious when it's his job to be great with a lightsaber. That is, unless you agree Fisto is better than Shaak.
It'd be good if someone can dig it up. There was a thread a while ago where both quotes from both books were posted.

MythLord
Originally posted by ILS
He only used the environment to begin with, then blade-locked and monologued to Grievous. After that he cut one of his arms off, slashed his armor and Force pushed him to the ground. After that it was quite even until the MGs showed up. Link to SW.com's quote? I haven't seen it yet.

Yeah, GG visibly pushed him back, and Fisto resorted to using the environment. Then after disarming him, he actually faced him head on and won via Force Push. Not really slappiing someone silly. And here's the quote:



Taken from: http://www.starwars.com/databank/general-grievous

Originally posted by ILS
Well, here's my take on it; Mace selected the very strongest combatants of those available to defeat Sidious (bearing in mind that in Legends, this was a team that had already been in place circa AotC, going by the Republic comics where Windu assembles the same team for a different operation).


Then we have the temple defence, which is led by Ti and Drallig, with Drallig being the superior blademaster out of the two. Your theory of Shaak being present because of superior tactical ability may have some merit, but it doesn't explain why Drallig, Shaak's superior, was left behind to defend the temple instead of fighting Sidious when it's his job to be great with a lightsaber. That is, unless you agree Fisto is better than Shaak.

Well you can look at this this way: Cin's own tactical abilities are greater than theirs, though he wasn't even placed in charge of the defenses. Or that's just Mace's A-team. It's only he's already picked for missions, even though he had other options.

He also saw those Jedi as more fit to fight by his side than Anakin, and I doubt Agen, Fisto or Tiin are better than Anakin.

Plus, I'd say being put in charge of guarding the Jedi Temple against a possible Sith attack is just as, if not more important, than preventing said Sith attack.

And I'm yet to see proof of Cin being > Shaak.

Originally posted by ILS
It'd be good if someone can dig it up. There was a thread a while ago where both quotes from both books were posted.

There was one quote, posted by Zenwolf I believe and Sel(was Sel there, I cannot remember), Zoltan and I essentially debunked it.

chingchangwalla
This is hilarious lmao.

MythLord
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
This is hilarious lmao.

Instead of using an appeal to stone, you can try and counter my argument. Though I suppose you aren't as relevant a debater as ILS for me to even care what you find funny, thumb up

chingchangwalla
I honestly don't see Grievous overwhelming Fisto at all in that fight

Zenwolf
You guys didn't really debunk it, or at least not for me anyway because I'm not buying that just because of a art depiction and a name.

When Cin Drallig has that exact same thing pretty much, on the exact same page.

If anyone could actually contact the writers or whoever to confirm, that'd be great cause whenever I try to get any answers, I get ignored.

chingchangwalla
If you could be so kind to point out where Fisto is struggling :/

cs_zoltan
Where's this "Grievous wasn't fully charged against Fisto" theory coming from? Just curious.

ILS
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, GG visibly pushed him back, and Fisto resorted to using the environment. Then after disarming him, he actually faced him head on and won via Force Push.Uhm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-t9GlT9qmk

1. They clash blades once, Fisto descends into smoke.
2. 0:35, blade-lock and monologue
3. 0:46 Fisto disarms Grievous

4. 1:01 Fisto slams Grievous' armor then Force pushes him
5. Onward from this they fight somewhat evenly, Fisto visibly being the one who presses forward at the end, and then Grievous' MagnaGuards appear. Fisto flees.

The only point in which Fisto could be viewed as "overwhelmed" would be at the end, when Grievous had help.
Which is a strange interpretation, given that Fisto, Tiin and Kolar were war generals for 4 years, and Drallig was a lightsaber instructor.
An A-team Shaak could have been on, but wasn't.
Which as we know from watching the movie was because of Anakin's emotional stability, rather than his combat abilities :/
This doesn't make any sense. Dooku was dead at this point, making Sidious the only Sith left. The Jedi weren't aware of Order 66 until it happened. And Agen, Tiin and Fisto were dead before anyone other than Sidious knew the Temple was about to be invaded. Now I could be wrong, but was Ti put in defence of the temple before Order 66 was happening, or after? I don't see why a defence would be rallied before Order 66, because sans that, the only invasion threat is Sidious himself and droids... and if the droids had a snowballs chance in hell of invading the Temple successfully I'm sure they'd have done it by now.

But more to the point, if Ti is a superior combatant to Kolar, Tiin or Fisto, why didn't Mace bring her instead when confronting the most powerful Sith of the age? Why was she left behind at the temple with Drallig while, by her own admission, "the best" were away to capture or kill Sidious?

Zen, any chance of posting the quote again?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Where's this "Grievous wasn't fully charged against Fisto" theory coming from? Just curious. In the episode, Grievous had to have his cybernetics replaced after killing Vebb. While in the middle of having them charged he disconnects himself to go and fight Fisto, despite his droid-doctor suggesting he wasn't yet at 100%.

Zenwolf
1.



2.

MythLord
Originally posted by ILS
Uhm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-t9GlT9qmk

1. They clash blades once, Fisto descends into smoke.
2. 0:35, blade-lock and monologue
3. 0:46 Fisto disarms Grievous

4. 1:01 Fisto slams Grievous' armor then Force pushes him
5. Onward from this they fight somewhat evenly, Fisto visibly being the one who presses forward at the end, and then Grievous' MagnaGuards appear. Fisto flees.

The only point in which Fisto could be viewed as "overwhelmed" would be at the end, when Grievous had help.

I believe near the beginning GG manages to push Fisto back. And the quote refers to Grievous himself overwhelming Fisto in lightsaber combat. Though this could mean Fisto actually had difficulty in outdueling, which means he didn't just easily slap him. Which is what I'm arguing.

Originally posted by ILS
Which is a strange interpretation, given that Fisto, Tiin and Kolar were war generals for 4 years, and Drallig was a lightsaber instructor.

If he's placed as one of the people in charge of guarding the oasis of the Jedi Order, I fail to see how his tactical capabilities wouldn't be sound.

Originally posted by ILS
An A-team Shaak could have been on, but wasn't.

This doesn't make any sense. Dooku was dead at this point, making Sidious the only Sith left. The Jedi weren't aware of Order 66 until it happened. And Agen, Tiin and Fisto were dead before anyone other than Sidious knew the Temple was about to be invaded. Now I could be wrong, but was Ti put in defence of the temple before Order 66 was happening, or after? I don't see why a defence would be rallied before Order 66, because sans that, the only invasion threat is Sidious himself and droids... and if the droids had a snowballs chance in hell of invading the Temple successfully I'm sure they'd have done it by now.

Well the Force Unleashed Databank notes that Mace placed Shaak to guard the temple in case he and his strike team fail. He sees Ti as the perfect fall-back option or plan B, in case they don't succeed.

They did know that Palpatine, the Chancellor was the Sith Lord and he would thus be in control of the Republic's armies, or would have another trick up his sleeve. Mace wasn't taking any chances. So it seems like roles of similar importance.

Originally posted by ILS
But more to the point, if Ti is a superior combatant to Kolar, Tiin or Fisto, why didn't Mace bring her instead when confronting the most powerful Sith of the age? Why was she left behind at the temple with Drallig while, by her own admission, "the best" were away to capture or kill Sidious?

Them being "the best", would be her own subjective opinion, much like it's Kenobi's opinion that he and Yoda are considerably less than Mace's strike team. So that's nothing something I'd put much stock into.

As I said, Ti had another role -- to guard the Jedi Temple in case they fail. Mace saw that her own tactical capabilities, and skill, was enough to warrant her as the lead of the Temple if they fail. Which is, again, a role of similar importance if you ask me. Not that Mace's personal preferance in combatants truly decides who's > who.

MythLord
Originally posted by Zenwolf
1.


2.

The second quote was right next to an image of Shaak Ti, under the title of "Shaak Ti and Stass Allie". And Cin was already mentioned in the same page, and it's stated how he's killed by Anakin.

Unless the publishers are retarded, they wouldn't mention Cin losing to Skywalker twice on the same page, and put one quote next to Cin fightingg Anakin, but then put another next to Shaak Ti and right over Skywalker fighting Kenobi.

Zenwolf
One thing to note, the TFU quote about Ti and being charged with Temple defense, is before Cin is put forth as the Temple's head of security, prior to that he was just the Lightsaber Battlemaster.

I'm sure it doesn't really mean much, but just throwing that out there.

Nephthys
Grievous not being fully charged against Fisto and the statement that GG overwhelmed him pretty drastically cuts his credibility imo. I had him as probably a bit under Kenobi on the council. He's probably mid-tier now.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
The second quote was right next to an image of Shaak Ti, under the title of "Shaak Ti and Stass Allie". And Cin was already mentioned in the same page, and it's stated how he's killed by Anakin.

Unless the publishers are retarded, they wouldn't mention Cin losing to Skywalker twice on the same page, and put one quote next to Cin fightingg Anakin, but then put another next to Shaak Ti and right over Skywalker fighting Kenobi.

Why exactly can't they?

But if you can contact the publishers or whoever to confirm, then please do so. Because whenever I try, I get no response back.

cs_zoltan
Thx ILS, weird that nobody noticed that sooner.

Anyhow, Ti was put in charge of the Temple before Windu left:

"Master Ti and Gate Master Jurokk will direct the Temple's defense," he said as he reached the others. "We are shutting down all nav beacons and signal lights, we have armed the older Padawans, and all blast doors are sealed and code-locked." His gaze swept the Masters. "It's time to go."

"And Skywalker?" The Zabrak Master cocked his head as though he felt a distant disturbance in the Force. "What of the chosen one?"
"I have sent him to the Council Chamber until our return." Mace Windu turned a grim stare upon the High Council Tower, squinting against the thickening rain. His hands withdrew from his sleeves. One of them held his lightsaber.
--Revenge of the Sith

And this is the quote about (not) Cin:

http://puu.sh/qbBkj/4e47930fae.jpg

It's in a paragraph titled for Stass and Shaak, and if that's not enough Cin wasn't even in charge. So I don't see how Cin > Ti is possible.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Why exactly can't they?

But if you can contact the publishers or whoever to confirm, then please do so. Because whenever I try, I get no response back.

Give one good reason why it should be Cin besides him being called a swordmaster. Which isn't exactly an unique title.

The quote is from Ti's paragraph you should prove it's about Cin, not the other way around.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by cs_zoltan


And this is the quote about (not) Cin:

http://puu.sh/qbBkj/4e47930fae.jpg

It's in a paragraph titled for Stass and Shaak, and if that's not enough Cin wasn't even in charge. So I don't see how Cin > Ti is possible.

Yet on the same page, it also mentions Cin as the Jedi swordmaster. Plus he's the only one noted to have fought both Clones and Anakin, which is what both quotes say.

Again. Contact the publishers or whoever to get confirmation, I'm not buying this whole art placement and what not as proof of anything.

MythLord
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Why exactly can't they?

But if you can contact the publishers or whoever to confirm, then please do so. Because whenever I try, I get no response back.

Because they're not braindead.

We don't need to contact the publisher to confirm a highly unlikely mistake is a highly unlikely mistake, or that they were referring to Ti or not Cin.

You're essentially using an anicdotal fallacy, at this point. The simplest solution is almost always the correct one(Occams Razor and all that), and in this case the simplest solution is: It's not talking about Cin under a paragraph titled Shaak Ti and Stass Allie, while not even being close to Cin's image, and with Drallig already being mentioned.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Give one good reason why it should be Cin besides him being called a swordmaster. Which isn't exactly an unique title.

The quote is from Ti's paragraph you should prove it's about Cin, not the other way around.

Because all other supplement material point to Cin as being the bigger threat in the Temple.

Insider 87 notes him as being marked a priority target by Vader due to his lightsaber skills alone.

In fact, who has the SW Character Encyclopedia? It's also noted that Cin was the Temple's finest swordmaster during the attack as well.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yet on the same page, it also mentions Cin as the Jedi swordmaster. Plus he's the only one noted to have fought both Clones and Anakin, which is what both quotes say.

Again. Contact the publishers or whoever to get confirmation, I'm not buying this whole art placement and what not as proof of anything.

Wow, a swordmaster. Not everyone can be a swordmaster for sure thumb up

Anyhow, I don't care what you are buying or not. It's under Ti's name so deal with it or prove it otherwise.

Btw, Shaak was implied to meet Skywalker during Knightfall:

http://puu.sh/qbBHv/41fc954f3b.jpg

chingchangwalla
Grievous pushing Fisto back at the end? Yep that's why grievous stopped fighting and let his magnaguards fight thumb up
He also said something about power changing hands, admitting Fisto was winning...

MythLord
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Grievous pushing Fisto back at the end? Yep that's why grievous stopped fighting and let his magnaguards fight thumb up
He also said something about power changing hands, admitting Fisto was winning...

Read my argument: "Near the beginning". You legitimately don't have a right to "lmao" at anyone when you can't read the first sentence of an argument, properly.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Wow, a swordmaster. Not everyone can be a swordmaster for sure thumb up

Anyhow, I don't care what you are buying or not. It's under Ti's name so deal with it or prove it otherwise.


As THE Swordmaster though?

Anyway, trying. But it's hard to get sources here.

chingchangwalla
Which argument?

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Insider 87 notes him as being marked a priority target by Vader due to his lightsaber skills alone.

Yes, and? There could've been several priority targets. He wasn't the highest priority or anything.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
In fact, who has the SW Character Encyclopedia? It's also noted that Cin was the Temple's finest swordmaster during the attack as well.

Nah:
http://puu.sh/qbBTP/683e0d431e.jpg
http://puu.sh/qbBU8/1f981dd96b.jpg

Zenwolf
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yes, and? There could've been several priority targets. He wasn't the highest priority or anything.



Nah:
http://puu.sh/qbBTP/683e0d431e.jpg
http://puu.sh/qbBU8/1f981dd96b.jpg

Wrong Encyclopedia. It's the 2011 one.

MythLord
I have the 2011 one, and it says the same thing.

cs_zoltan
The Insider source also says there were several high-profile targets during Knightfall.

Selenial
Originally posted by ILS
Fisto's style is pretty context-dependent, it'll cause havoc for Grievous, his Magnaguards and in general anyone who responds poorly to high speed, randomised assaults. Meanwhile a Makashi practitioner like Ventress is going to have an edge over Fisto (though apparently she studied his style before they fought?). Other than that, Fisto's brand of Shii-Cho has no noted inherent weaknesses to other forms or any glaring issues we can interpret from the material. "It wasn't designed for dueling" clearly isn't an excuse because Fisto manages just fine using it as a dueling form.

I'm sceptical if Ti can actually make use of Makashi to undermine Kit, given the disparity in their accomplishments. Slapping a not-fully-charged TCW Grievous around with visible ease versus getting destroyed by OCW Grievous perhaps isn't the fairest comparison to make, but it's near enough the only one we have. Other than that, Fisto was chosen over Ti for the B-team and Ti is regarded as lower than Cin Drallig at the time of RotS by a couple of sourcebooks. I'd say by RotS Fisto is certainly beyond RotS Ti.

Whether she improved enough by TFU to surpass him, I'm not totally sure, and it's also a case of determining what version of TFU's Felucia battle you rely on. The Graphic Novel outright suggests that Felucia is a Dark-sided environment and Ti is a lone beacon of the Light Side. The novel suggests that Ti's Light Side practice over the years has "stifled" the Dark Side's ability to manifest in the area, which weakened Marek. And obviously the duels are visibly different from source to source.

You're actually incorrect in saying Shii-Cho has no inherent weaknesses to other forms. As a dueling form it is simply outclassed. Jedi vs Sith; An Essential Guide to the Force puts it best by saying, quite bluntly:

"Because the ancient Jedi did not have Lightsaber-wielding enemies, Form I does not address Lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat."

And yes you're right, Fisto duels well with it. But he does that because he is an incredibly fast Jedi. Shii-Cho is characterized by sweeping motions that leave one's defense wide open. It is why no duelist would ever favor Shii-Cho. Kit however is astoundingly fast, so can make up those weak-spots in his defenses far quicker than an enemy could exploit them.... unless his enemy is equally or nigh-equally his speed.

Moreover, Shii-Cho's only dueling application is noted as being against numerous blade wielders, or opponents wielding multiple blades. So one would expect a fit and able Kit Fisto to perform better against a weakened and damaged Grievous, than a tired Shaak Ti whose entire arsenal of abilities relies on not being tired would while facing a fresh Grievous. That's pretty ****ing obvious.

That Cin quote has been thoroughly debunked numerous times, by the way.

I agree that the TFU sources are markedly different, though one could suggest they're both equally valid interpretations of the fight, and how the fight could play out. No matter how you look at it, all three sources have Shaak Ti dominating the fight, overextending slightly and falling because of it. Whether it's to a fortunate Force Push and hate-filled Lightning burst, or a desperate telekinetic block.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
I have the 2011 one, and it says the same thing.

The Star Wars Character Encyclopedia?

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511SkrkMNCL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

That the cover?

cs_zoltan
Idk. Mace wouldn't have picked Fisto if he sucks in an actual duel. He was also superior to AotC Kenobi as a duelist.

MythLord
Originally posted by Zenwolf
The Star Wars Character Encyclopedia?

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511SkrkMNCL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

That the cover?

Yup. I don't recall him being the best duelist, I only recall it says even someone as esteemed as Drallig can't beat Anakin, or something along those lines.

Zenwolf
Also Q, where is everyone getting these Prima game guides as of late? I look, yet can't find any reliable place.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
Yup. I don't recall him being the best duelist, I only recall it says even someone as esteemed as Drallig can't beat Anakin, or something along those lines.

So you don't have the book on hand to actually check?

MythLord
Originally posted by Zenwolf
So you don't have the book on hand to actually check?

I actually do have a physical copy, I just have no idea where it is.

Selenial
Originally posted by ILS
Now I could be wrong, but was Ti put in defence of the temple before Order 66 was happening, or after? I don't see why a defence would be rallied before Order 66, because sans that, the only invasion threat is Sidious himself and droids... and if the droids had a snowballs chance in hell of invading the Temple successfully I'm sure they'd have done it by now.

But more to the point, if Ti is a superior combatant to Kolar, Tiin or Fisto, why didn't Mace bring her instead when confronting the most powerful Sith of the age? Why was she left behind at the temple with Drallig while, by her own admission, "the best" were away to capture or kill Sidious?

Just to pipe in here, because why not...

Ti was put in defence of the temple before Order 66 happened, she was left behind in case Mace and his crew failed in their mission to take Palpatine.

But that's kind of the point. She was the back up. She was "Plan B". Theoretically, if Mace wanted the best team to take down Palpatine, he needed her as well as the other three. Hell, he could have taken Drallig too. He left both of them behind however, to defend the temple in case they failed. That's effectively Mace saying "Either he'll kill us all with ease, or we'll wipe him out no problem", he obviously didn't think it'd be close either way or he would have taken more Jedi.

So for his backup plan, who better to leave defending the temple than the most celebrated War General of the Republic bar Anakin/Obi-Wan, and the instructor who knew the Temple better than anyone?

Another avenue of thinking is that Mace simply left her behind for the same reason he left Anakin. He knew the B-Team, they'd follow him unquestionably. Both Shaak Ti and Anakin however were publicly viewed as incredibly close to the Chancellor. In the waning days of the war, she was his bodyguard and a personal friend to the Chancellor, an individual he trusted dearly. Windu wanted Palpatine dead if need be, and he may have simply left her and Anakin (who is unquestionably > the B Team) behind because they might not see it through.

Selenial
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Idk. Mace wouldn't have picked Fisto if he sucks in an actual duel. He was also superior to AotC Kenobi as a duelist.

I'm not saying he sucks in an actual duel, merely that he overwhelmingly relies on speed to compensate for the flaws in his form. Given her own speed feats, he won't be significantly outpacing her, and both of her forms are aggressive and designed to penetrate weak spots in a defence.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
I actually do have a physical copy, I just have no idea where it is.

Hmm...alright, well then I'll remain on the lookout.

MythLord
Found it! I actually does say Cin is the Temples Finest swordsman. Sad part is, though, he's the Temple's finest swordsman by the middle of the raid on the Temple, at which point Shaak's either dead(like it was originally intended) or fled.

SunRazer
Pretty sure it refers to Cin in the context of all of Operation Knightfall, not the very moment that Vader struck him down.

MythLord
During Vader's raid, Shaak escaped Vader's raid since she was his first target(or meant to be, in the RotS novel). After her death/escape, did the attack on the Temple actually fully commence, IIRC.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
Found it! I actually does say Cin is the Temples Finest swordsman. Sad part is, though, he's the Temple's finest swordsman by the middle of the raid on the Temple, at which point Shaak's either dead(like it was originally intended) or fled.

But it's noted that Ti put up a defense against the Clones and then started evacs according to TFU and then fled. So I'm sure it's also covering that too.

Even still, so there's that quote from that and the Visual dictionary now.

MythLord
Yeah, that actually is noted in the TFU Databank. But it's also noted she survived and escaped the massacre, and Anakin went to her as the primary target, prior to the raid happening. What I speculate happened is, as many Jedi believed, they fought but he didn't kill Shaak, she survived and alarmed the rest of the Jedi Temple defense force.

Then she escaped as the raid began.

The Visual Dictionary is still under debate, tbh.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, that actually is noted in the TFU Databank. But it's also noted she survived and escaped the massacre, and Anakin went to her as the primary target, prior to the raid happening. What I speculate happened is, as many Jedi believed, they fought but he didn't kill Shaak, she survived and alarmed the rest of the Jedi Temple defense force.

Then she escaped as the raid began.

The Visual Dictionary is still under debate, tbh.

But the raid already started by the time of Ti rallying Jedi to defense of the Temple as the Clones attacked.

Why would she flee the Temple before the raid began?

But ah can you post the Encyclopedia quote? Cause I can't find the book.

MythLord
She rallied the Jedi defenses upon realizing what Anakin had planned. And here's the quote:



However, now that I think about it, Cin might be a better swordsmaster than Ti, but is he a better warrior? His technical skill is certainly superior, but his combative skill may not be, in a similar vein to how Kas'im is superior as a technical duelist to Bane, yet Bane is the better warrior, or how the GI is a better technical duelist than Kanan, yet Kanan's the better warrior.

mmm

AncientPower
He's the Battlemaster, so he's bound to be the best swordsman, the most masterful duelist.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
She rallied the Jedi defenses upon realizing what Anakin had planned. And here's the quote:



However, now that I think about it, Cin might be a better swordsmaster than Ti, but is he a better warrior? His technical skill is certainly superior, but his combative skill may not be, in a similar vein to how Kas'im is superior as a technical duelist to Bane, yet Bane is the better warrior, or how the GI is a better technical duelist than Kanan, yet Kanan's the better warrior.

mmm

Right and it's noted according to TFU Databank, she fought with her Jedi to repel the Clone attack, so it's clear she was in the Temple during the raid. She then did evacs when realizing the Temple was lost and fled.




Well if we go by accolades from Dooku, he notes that Grevious wouldn't have a chance against Cin as of the Hypori battle. Among other quotes about Cin and his lightsaber combat, who trained him(Yoda) etc.

Of course granted, Ti wasn't in full condition as of Hypori, yet neither was Mundi and he did fairly well against Grevious there.

But anyway, I'd probably give a slight edge to Cin when taking into all that account.

If nothing else the disparity between the two isn't that large.

MythLord
Dooku was scolding Grievous for using "power moves" and he doesn't say Grievous doesn't have a chance, just asks if he wishes for Dooku to demonstrate what Drallig would do to him. He then lists Mace and Kenobi, both of whom had actual problems with Grievous and didn't have a clear cut victory, and both of whom are above Cin.

So the accolade shouldn't be taken at face-value, especially when there's a supposed LoE reprint stating the same only with Ti replacing Cin.

Mundi got dispatched faster than Ti did, though. Then Ki-Adi got back up later, and fought Grievous for several seconds. But this can be more attributed to endurance, rather than skill.

And given Shaak at least survived an implied engagement with Skywalker, and her greater aptitude with the Force, I'd say she'd beat Drallig unquestionably.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
Dooku was scolding Grievous for using "power moves" and he doesn't say Grievous doesn't have a chance, just asks if he wishes for Dooku to demonstrate what Drallig would do to him. He then lists Mace and Kenobi, both of whom had actual problems with Grievous and didn't have a clear cut victory, and both of whom are above Cin.

So the accolade shouldn't be taken at face-value, especially when there's a supposed LoE reprint stating the same only with Ti replacing Cin.

Mundi got dispatched faster than Ti did, though. Then Ki-Adi got back up later, and fought Grievous for several seconds. But this can be more attributed to endurance, rather than skill.

And given Shaak at least survived an implied engagement with Skywalker, and her greater aptitude with the Force, I'd say she'd beat Drallig unquestionably.

How would Mundi fighting Grevious be more of endurance rather than skill? When everyone else was completely demolished?

A supposed reprint? I'm not putting too much stock into an implied engagement tbh.

Of course overall yeah, but strict sabers I don't see that.

Selenial
Originally posted by Zenwolf
How would Mundi fighting Grevious be more of endurance rather than skill? When everyone else was completely demolished?

Because Mundi could fall back on Soresu, whereas Shaak's entire fighting style relies on releasing massive bursts of energy.... energy she evidently doesn't have after fighting for days straight on Hypori trying to turn the tide of a battle confused

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Selenial
Because Mundi could fall back on Soresu, whereas Shaak's entire fighting style relies on releasing massive bursts of energy.... energy she evidently doesn't have after fighting for days straight on Hypori trying to turn the tide of a battle confused

Shaak Ti also couldn't fall back on Soresu? Cause all Jedi are trained in all forms of Lightsaber combat.

But point I guess.

Emperordmb
I definitely don't believe Shaak's defeat on Hypori should be used against her due to the circumstances, but she has Makashi, a perfectly minimalist energy conservative form to fall back on if tired.

Also Tiin>Ti confirmed since he was picked for da mighty B-Team.

MythLord
Because Shaak lasted longer against Grievous than Mundi, originally. But whereas after GG dispatched him, he got up, Ti didn't.

Hence, it's endurance-related.

Selenial
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I definitely don't believe Shaak's defeat on Hypori should be used against her due to the circumstances, but she has Makashi, a perfectly minimalist energy conservative form to fall back on if tired.

Also Tiin>Ti confirmed since he was picked for da mighty B-Team.

A style Grievous knows better than any, TBH.

IMO that's just as much of a disadvantage.

Zenwolf
Well anyway, I think it's kinda difficult to place Ti because the only instance where she isn't tired from fighting is against Galen.

Other times, Hypori she wasn't at 100% and on Courscant she wasn't either. Well when she went to fight Grevious, the former where she was overwhelmed and the latter where she didn't even get an attack in before getting strung up like a Pinata.

So we really just can gauge her only really as of her fight with Galen and I guess her Magnaguard fight.

As far as being 100%.

Fisto isn't as hard.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Selenial
A style Grievous knows better than any, TBH.

IMO that's just as much of a disadvantage.
Wonder if Dooku gave Grievous any pointers on Ataru countering since he's an expert at it.

TheNuisanceBird
They're both definitely at least Council later.

Deronn_solo
Both are firmly below Kenobi.

chingchangwalla
Considering Kenobi gets ragdolled by almost everyone, I have Fisto on par with him skill wise but overall just below.

cs_zoltan
>Almost everyone
>Dooku and Maul only

mmm

You are getting more cancerous by the day.

Deronn_solo
laughing out loud

chingchangwalla
It's still embarrassing getting ragdolled by Maul...

|King Joker|
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
It's still embarrassing getting ragdolled by Maul... You should probably stop. smile

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by |King Joker|
You should probably stop. smile

Breathing.

SunRazer
Because?

chingchangwalla
My point still stands. Fisto is just below obi-Wan is he not?

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by SunRazer
Because?

Because he's a fuggot.

SunRazer
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Because he's a fuggot.

Nah, I made that post in reference to ChingChang saying that "it's embarassing to get ragdolled to Maul".

I wouldn't question the two posts below smile

cs_zoltan
mmm

The answer is the same tbh.

chingchangwalla
Because Maul isn't the force wielding type :/ in combat

SunRazer
And Sidious isn't the dueling type, is he a shit duelist too?

Oh, god, you do think that he's a shit duelist. Goddamnit.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by SunRazer
And Sidious isn't the dueling type, is he a shit duelist too?

Oh, god, you do think that he's a shit duelist. Goddamnit. smile smile

cs_zoltan
It's also embarrassing to get ragdolled by Vader I guess.

Ziggystardust
Did Maul ever rag-doll Kenobi without some fairly big circumstance aiding him? I'm pretty sure he could not otherwise.

SunRazer
There's the one in the comics.

Ziggystardust
Yes, well that always looked like a rage-amp to me...

SunRazer
That's like saying Maul gets amped every time he engages with Obi-Wan.

cs_zoltan
He does uhuh

Nephthys
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
>Almost everyone
>Dooku and Maul only

mmm

You are getting more cancerous by the day.

Ventress.

chingchangwalla
Getting ragdolled by Ventress is more embarrassing

MythLord
Yeah, Ventress... who was enraged in a media more inconsistent than Donald Trump's campaign.

Or are you referring to the Republic: New Face of War comic where Kenobi was fatally poisoned with toxic gas that forced a noted Jedi Master, Glaive, to use all his strength to keep his lungs from melting?

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5337696-toxic+gas.jpg

Please, enlighten me more about how weak Obi-Wan is.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, Ventress... who was enraged in a media more inconsistent than Donald Trump's campaign.

Or are you referring to the Republic: New Face of War comic where Kenobi was fatally poisoned with toxic gas that forced a noted Jedi Master, Glaive, to use all his strength to keep his lungs from melting?

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5337696-toxic+gas.jpg

Please, enlighten me more about how weak Obi-Wan is.

That's pretty impressive tbh.

Darth Thor
Let's not forget Rageamped Ventress choked Skywalker and Kenobi both. So I'm sure that was more a peak moment for Ventress, than it was a weak showing for Kenobi.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Getting ragdolled by Ventress is more embarrassing

Not as embarrassing you are.

chingchangwalla
<3

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