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He has no good showings of barrier, can't use force lightning, has no knowledge of Sith Sorcery, no good showings of weather manipulation, can't use tutaminus. Did Sidious train him only to be an assassin and a thug with a Lightsaber? Does Maul have a handicap that only enables him to be good with a saber? Why does Maul have hardly any variety with his force feats?

Pretty much yeah, he was designed as a weapon/assassin. Why bother really to study other things? That said, he has some pretty nice TP feats(Legends), he can Force cloak(Legends), and has some nice TK feats.

Trainee Zannah and Ben Skywalker have used cloak before their primes. Being an assassin doesn't excuse his lack of versatility with the force, did Sidious just hold back or is Maul just compensating by being 00b3r skill3d

Sidious trained him as an assassin and a weapon, he doesn't really need to know any Sorcery related things or what have you. His saber skills and TK abilities among his other few like TP and Stealth, are perfect set for what he was built as.

Because he hates using it, he believes it's cheating. So he was trained all his life as a pure lightsaber duelist and he's still shit at that...

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Because he hates using it, he believes it's cheating. So he was trained all his life as a pure lightsaber duelist and he's still shit at that...

Wat.

Well for someone who spent there whole life training in lightsaber combat and obtained mastery of Teras Kasi, he isn't as good as he should be...

I used to rank Maul on almost Mace level but after Rebels he's on par with Trebor

Hello not versatile but he is a power house. He's survived things that most people would be dead from.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I used to rank Maul on almost Mace level but after Rebels he's on par with Trebor

Rebels Maul is inferior to his SoD incarnation.

No he isn't. That being said, Syndicate, it's time to pass the retard card onto to ching with that Trebor bullshizzle.

I never let go of what's mine.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Rebels Maul is inferior to his SoD incarnation.

Nah Rebels Maul isn't Trebor bad but SOD Maul would beat him :/

Based on what? Your opinions? Unfortunately they come second to Disney's.

Disney butchered Maul... I don't care what they think

That's nice. If you caring about things made them matter, the world would be a much darker place.

kisses

Yeah Disney ruined Maul. They made him a lame villain.

Maul was already ruined before Rebels tbh.

Maul was ruined after TPM tbh. He was a total badass in that movie and the best part about it. He was cool in TCW too I guess, but he has so many low showings in that. Also why didn't he use the double bladed saber after TPM? That was what made him so unique.

He was badass in the clone wars. How the **** can anyone say he wasn't ?

I didn't say he wasn't, but yeah, him begging Sheev for mercy was totally badass

Originally posted by Rebel95
Also why didn't he use the double bladed saber after TPM? That was what made him so unique.


He used what was left of it during TCW which was a single Saber.

And he's using one again in Rebels.

Sidious specifically went out of his way to keep most of the higher functions of the Force from Maul, he was never intended to take over from Sidious. He was a weapon, nothing more.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Sidious trained him as an assassin and a weapon, he doesn't really need to know any Sorcery related things or what have you. His saber skills and TK abilities among his other few like TP and Stealth, are perfect set for what he was built as.



Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious specifically went out of his way to keep most of the higher functions of the Force from Maul, he was never intended to take over from Sidious. He was a weapon, nothing more.



Nah TCW went out of it's way to show Maul was much more than just an Assassin.

Ventress was Dooku's assassin. Maul wasn't just Sidious's assassin, he was trained as his Sith apprentice.

Maul's quite underrated with regards to the Force, but regardless, yes, his training was based on physical and martial aspects and in relation to the Force, he was pretty much solely trained to hone Force abilities that would be helpful for his tasks as an assassin, and to master his hate.

And yes, I preferred him pre-revival as well.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah TCW went out of it's way to show Maul was much more than just an Assassin.

Ventress was Dooku's assassin. Maul wasn't just Sidious's assassin, he was trained as his Sith apprentice.

There's no denying that Sidious gifted him with more knowledge than a mere assassin would accomplish, but even the Sith knowledge he gleamed - somebody post a quote for it - IIRC, wasn't anything particularly noteworthy. But I'll have to see the quote again and that could change my opinion.

I think Legends and Canon go separate paths on this issue.

But I'm with Canon on this. Makes no sense to name Maul a Sith Lord/Apprentice if he's just an assassin. Remember Ventress was Dooku's assassin and she was never given the title of Sith.

Nor was Opress (not under Dooku at least). Maul named Opress his Sith apprentice, but he didn't have time to teach him much.

In fairness, Dooku seemed to show Ventress more dark side powers than Sidious did Maul, lol. That might just be a matter of what is and isn't exposed to us, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That might just be a matter of what is and isn't exposed to us, though.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I think Legends and Canon go separate paths on this issue.

But I'm with Canon on this. Makes no sense to name Maul a Sith Lord/Apprentice if he's just an assassin. Remember Ventress was Dooku's assassin and she was never given the title of Sith.

Nor was Opress (not under Dooku at least). Maul named Opress his Sith apprentice, but he didn't have time to teach him much.

I was pretty much just going by Legends, since that's how it all started with Maul. But yeah, Canon churned out some differences.

Even though TCW is apart of Legends(it actually shouldn't be since it's Canon), but it's also Canon. /Shrug

Tbh I don't think we should use TCW anymore because of that fact, because it has some differences to events and characterizations and all that which makes some Legends stuff kinda bizarre. But that's just me.

Edit: As far as if were also debating Legends too, should specific that.

Maul was never "just an assassin" not in Canon or Legends. Canon just expanded on him cerebrally.Originally posted by SunRazer
There's no denying that Sidious gifted him with more knowledge than a mere assassin would accomplish, but even the Sith knowledge he gleamed - somebody post a quote for it - IIRC, wasn't anything particularly noteworthy. But I'll have to see the quote again and that could change my opinion. He was described as one of the most highly trained Sith in history, so we've no reason to believe his training was basic. And though his primary role was that of a Jedi Killer (although TCW significantly expanded on that job description) that doesn't at all preclude him having access to more advanced Force abilities, many of which are combat applicable. Especially when he was considered by Palpatine as a legitimate apprentice and a true Sith Lord.

In fact he shows a lot of advanced abilities in his fight against Jinn and Kenobi, such as concealing his presence in the Force, dulling their own connection to the Force and feeding off Kenobi's rage:Now I don't know about the quote you're referring to, but he is stated to have been instructed by Sidious in Sith lore (and the Jedi arts):Of which the Banite Sith had stockpiled over the course of 1,000 years.

He's also described as having "far superior" knowledge of the dark side than Mighella, despite her being a master of Force lightning and one of the most powerful of the Dathomirian witches:In fact I think its pretty telling that it's the point at which Maul tanks' Mighella's lightning that she realises this:Indicating that he wasn't just powering through it, but actually using his knowledge and mastery over the dark side to negate/dispel it.

And of course we have one of his most impressive showings, namely using some manner of Force technique to survive bisection. Which Kenobi attributes to both his power in the Force and knowledge over the dark side:Which though conjecture on Kenobi's part does carry with it authorial intent, it being a feat that Darth Sidious himself did not think possible, the realisation that it was leading him to rescue Vadero yeah, despite not being capable of shooting lightning out of his hands (which he could nonetheless seemingly dispel) and casting spells, he's still highly advanced as a Sith warrior. More advanced than say, the Emperor's Wrath - who is anything but a "mediocre Sith Lord". And definitely more advanced than Ventress, lol.

"One of the most highly trained sith in history" He should be around Mace then, but no. All that training, a lifetime, to be at Kenobi level...

1. Not sure if the one about Sith lore was the one I'm looking for. Hmm...

2. Half of those quotes are the Consume Essence and generic Sith powers, it seems. The "Jedi arts" refers to dueling.

3. The Palpatine being surprised at Maul's survival is kind of weird with new quotes suggesting that Palpatine would be able to replicate that.

4. He's obviously not "mediocre", but he's not particularly amazing with respects to either demonstrated Force feats, provided Force accolades, or shown Force knowledge. Is there anything that provides exposition on what he studied under Sidious/what dark side knowledge he had access to? We'll mostly have to use inference for this, which I don't like (but I can make do with it if necessary).

I'm aware of the "far more knowledgeable than Mighella" stuff but that's hardly special.

I guess I should have been clearer, but I wasn't trying to say he was just an assassin, though yeah I did forget about some stuff regarding his knowledge.

Still though I'm still not sure we should use TCW anymore if were going to debate Legends, but that's just me.

Yeah, in Legends, it seems like Maul was initially envisioned as just a tool for Sidious, which changed with newer sources implying that Sheev was considering him as a true apprentice. Canon builds off that and is a lot more favorable towards Maul.

And I wasn't suggesting that Ventress was more advanced than Maul - I was saying that Ventress seems to know more dark side powers than Maul does based on exposition, which is just weird, hence why I wanted to find ways around it. I'm just saying that Ventress has stuff like resurrecting the dead which Maul lacks. Obviously Maul should, by any and all reasonable assumption, be more advanced as a dark sider.

Who cares, Maul's ****ed as a character now anyway. Filoni and co couldn't have handled him any worse.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
"One of the most highly trained sith in history" He should be around Mace then, but no. All that training, a lifetime, to be at Kenobi level... As a Force user? Yeah he rivals Mace, and grinds Kenobi into the dust.

Rivals Mace? Nah.

Yeah. But of course, we're discussing raw power here which is off-topic.

In terms of raw power, Maul's really high up, yeah. I meant mastered power, ie. knowledge and Force Mastery

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, in Legends, it seems like Maul was initially envisioned as just a tool for Sidious, which changed with newer sources implying that Sheev was considering him as a true apprentice. Canon builds off that and is a lot more favorable towards Maul. Do you have sources for this? The earliest sources on Maul indicate him to be a legitimate Sith Lord/apprentice.

Off the top of my head, there's Sidious stating that "While I will choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor" in BoS. He also had a pretty scathing review of Maul and how much of a puppet he was in JvS, IIRC. Or was it something else?

There's more from early sources. I'll have to find them.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Half of those quotes are the Consume Essence and generic Sith powers, it seems. The "Jedi arts" refers to dulling.I assume you have examples of them being replicated then. I highly doubt your generic Sith adept could dull the Force powers of Qui-Gon Jinn. mmmIn Canon or Legends?I'd say he's particular impressive as Sith Warrior tbh, beyond his exceptional ability in TK, TP etc. he's evidently mastered a lot of techniques designed to make him more exceptional and effective in combat. The only areas he's lacking in are Sith lightning and sorcery. But many of the most advanced Sith e.g. Bane, Tenebrous, Plagueis, never even used the latter.

But of course we should be ever aware that Maul was only around 20 when his training was cut short.I would disagree, the Nightsisters are highly advanced in the Force, but evidently Maul is just a cut above that. Especially within the contexts of negating her Force lightning its quite impressive.Originally posted by SunRazer
Off the top of my head, there's Sidious stating that "While I will choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor" in BoS. He also had a pretty scathing review of Maul and how much of a puppet he was in JvS, IIRC. Or was it something else?

There's more from early sources. I'll have to find them. Do you mean Book of Sith? That's not really a new source, more following on from a slew of contradictions on Palpatine's part tbh.

1. Sorry, but Consume Essence is used by basically every Sith. Relishing in negative emotions is part of Sith identity.

As for Cloud Mind, that's quite good, indeed. Though it comes from those junior novel sources that have some crazy things like Dooku sustaining himself indefinitely with the dark side (and Anakin not being able to outlast him) and things of that nature.

2. Canon. It's a new website quote that claims that "Like his master, Maul is resilient and has the uncanny ability to cheat death".

Anyways, both Sion and Maw have done this or better, and they're regarded to be among the weakest of characters used on the battles board.

3. Obviously exceptional by the norm, but that's not what we judge people by here. We're comparing him to elite Sith, of course. Nobody disputes that he's far above some mook unnamed Sith warrior from TOR.

4. Being far more knowledgeable than Nightsisters is not that amazing when you compare it to all of the high-tier Sith Lords in history.

5. Yeah, as I said, in Legends, it's quite conflicting. BoS is one of the more recent sources, though. DMB & WollfMyth have posted a bunch of those quotes on CV at some point. We'll have to find them.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sorry, but Consume Essence is used by basically every Sith. Relishing in negative emotions is part of Sith identity.In general yeah, but I can't think of many if any examples of it being applied effectively in combat, certainly not the weaken your opponent, apart from Lord Scourge, for whom it was regarded as exceptional.There are two sources that attest to that feat though. And of course, that example is contradicted by the RotS novelisation and other sources, not that it can't be interpreted reasonably.OK but is it referring to both clauses? Sidious has never cheated death in Canon, and instead its made out to be a live long and ultimately unachieved pursuit.A fair point but that's Legends, in Canon is made out to be a lot more impressive, given that it astounded even Sidious. So I find that comparison questionable.As I say, he's more advanced than the Wrath.In terms of power and skill yeah, knowledge of the dark side not so much.The quote from The Book of Sith is interesting, as he describes Maul as a Sith Warrior never being able to expand "beyond their limited set of tasks", and yet he was essentially proven wrong in TCW... perhaps he's simply being disparaging to save face.

However my point more is that there as been a trend from the beginning for Maul being a legitimate Sith Lord, rather than an expendable tool, with the Dark Side Sourcebook and Lucas' AotC commentary indicating as much.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Off the top of my head, there's Sidious stating that "While I will choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor" in BoS. He also had a pretty scathing review of Maul and how much of a puppet he was in JvS, IIRC. Or was it something else?

There's more from early sources. I'll have to find them.

I believe there's a quote where Sidious is speaking to Vader saying Dooku was a stepping stone for Anakin while Maul was a "true loss."

Legends was a mixed bag with contradictory statements everywhere, so you could argue over that all day.

Canon's view however is clear and makes a lot more sense IMO.


Originally posted by chingchangwalla
"One of the most highly trained sith in history" He should be around Mace then, but no. All that training, a lifetime, to be at Kenobi level...


Mace Windu is one of the greatest Jedi Masters of all time. So no doesn't necessarily make him Mace level, especially given Maul left the Sith Order way too early, and wasted 10+ years in a junkyard, unlike Mace.

Maul only does lightsaber he didnt do force

debate settled okey

/thread

Originally posted by ILS
Maul only does lightsaber he didnt do force

debate settled okey

/thread

You should debate chimichanga on Nomi vs Maul force only

Sam Witwer is a terrible voice actor.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul was never "just an assassin" not in Canon or Legends. Canon just expanded on him cerebrally.He was described as one of the most highly trained Sith in history, so we've no reason to believe his training was basic. And though his primary role was that of a Jedi Killer (although TCW significantly expanded on that job description) that doesn't at all preclude him having access to more advanced Force abilities, many of which are combat applicable. Especially when he was considered by Palpatine as a legitimate apprentice and a true Sith Lord.

In fact he shows a lot of advanced abilities in his fight against Jinn and Kenobi, such as concealing his presence in the Force, dulling their own connection to the Force and feeding off Kenobi's rage:Now I don't know about the quote you're referring to, but he is stated to have been instructed by Sidious in Sith lore (and the Jedi arts):Of which the Banite Sith had stockpiled over the course of 1,000 years.

He's also described as having "far superior" knowledge of the dark side than Mighella, despite her being a master of Force lightning and one of the most powerful of the Dathomirian witches:In fact I think its pretty telling that it's the point at which Maul tanks' Mighella's lightning that she realises this:Indicating that he wasn't just powering through it, but actually using his knowledge and mastery over the dark side to negate/dispel it.

And of course we have one of his most impressive showings, namely using some manner of Force technique to survive bisection. Which Kenobi attributes to both his power in the Force and knowledge over the dark side:Which though conjecture on Kenobi's part does carry with it authorial intent, it being a feat that Darth Sidious himself did not think possible, the realisation that it was leading him to rescue Vadero yeah, despite not being capable of shooting lightning out of his hands (which he could nonetheless seemingly dispel) and casting spells, he's still highly advanced as a Sith warrior. More advanced than say, the Emperor's Wrath - who is anything but a "mediocre Sith Lord". And definitely more advanced than Ventress, lol.
Good post.

Maul had the potential to be an even bigger/more iconic villain than Vader, too bad Lucas had to kill him and introduce this bullshit prophecy and magic Skywalker bloodline.

Anyway, this "Maul is just a disposable tool" business was never a part of Lucas' vision and never had any basis in the higher canon or in the early 2000s EU. It's just bullshit that some hacks dreamed up years later based on Dooku's musing of Maul being "an animal" and a "skilled beast, but a beast nonetheless".

In the PT trilogy Sidious was completely dedicated to the Sith cause and fully intended to be surpassed by his apprentice("Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us". Maul was originally supposed to be his successor, and all of that entails.

In the TPM novelization's ending Sidious is seething with anger at Maul's death. He thinks that fate itself conspired to rob him of Maul and swears vengeance on the Jedi. The point is, even with the 20000 midichlorian wonder now in play, Maul's death is still considered a huge loss.

Coincidentally, the better writers of the EU(i.e: James Luceno) always understood this. In the Plagueis novel, Plagueis himself thinks that Sidious has a "filial bond" with Maul. That's because way before Anakin showed up, Maul was the one Sidious picked to be his successor. That means that:
a)Maul had the innate potential to reach Yoda/Sidious levels and surpass them
b)Sidious poured all of his heart and soul into training Maul, since Maul was going to be his legacy

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As I say, he's more advanced than the Wrath.

In terms of what? I don't recall much in the way of esoteric combat techniques from Maul while the Wrath has been credited with telepathy, beast control, force cloak, force drain, force stasis and force terror. The Wraths command of the dark side has been stated to be legendary.

Can Wrath break barracks and use mechu deru? Or throw droid heads to open doors like in TPM?

Maul is such a good force user, and his potential is so high

Originally posted by Nephthys
In terms of what? I don't recall much in the way of esoteric combat techniques from Maul while the Wrath has been credited with telepathy, beast control, force cloak, force drain, force stasis and force terror. The Wraths command of the dark side has been stated to be legendary. Out of interest where has the Wrath been credited with stasis or drain?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Out of interest where has the Wrath been credited with stasis or drain?

Both from the Holonet.

"Though the lightsaber is the Warrior’s primary method of attack, he also uses his dark command of the Force to paralyze, terrify, and kill."

"Protecting their allies and punishing their adversaries, they charge into the thick of any fray, and take the brunt of the assault and are even able to drain the energy of their enemies to further strengthen their resolve "

Originally posted by Nephthys
In terms of what? I don't recall much in the way of esoteric combat techniques from Maul while the Wrath has been credited with telepathy, beast control, force cloak, force drain, force stasis and force terror. The Wraths command of the dark side has been stated to be legendary. Maul has shown all of this aside from Beast Control (which is pretty basic) and Drain, in addition to extremely advanced Mechu-Deru.

This is my crack at consolidating everything Force-related for him, sans comic stuff which I could put in a zip file or something:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11QQsVSAmA3heIduRj5GuuuQVGGZCzkOEB3XK_zDCwEU/edit?usp=sharing

Originally posted by ILS
Maul has shown all of this aside from Beast Control (which is pretty basic) and Drain, in addition to extremely advanced Mechu-Deru.

This is my crack at consolidating everything Force-related for him, sans comic stuff which I could put in a zip file or something:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11QQsVSAmA3heIduRj5GuuuQVGGZCzkOEB3XK_zDCwEU/edit?usp=sharing

Force cloak is different from concealing your presence, I'm talking about invisibility here. I'm also not seeing stasis or force fear anywhere?

Mechu-Deru isn't combat useful. I was thinking about those kinds of things.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Force cloak is different from concealing your presence, I'm talking about invisibility here. I'm also not seeing stasis or force fear anywhere?

Mechu-Deru isn't combat useful. I was thinking about those kinds of things. Maul's done both.

"Fortunately there was a human officer at the checkpoint, asking those coming and going to state their business. It was ridiculously easy for Maul to cloak himself in the Force and thus slip by the dim-witted fellow."
―Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

For Stasis, he held Satine in Stasis, and for Terror/Fear, I'm sure he's instilled fear in people before but the most obvious example I can think of is putting an Iktochi telepath into a coma by looking at him.

There's also him surviving being cut in half, which was credited to his strength and knowledge of the Dark Side. It's unprecedented as a feat and was something Sidious hadn't considered possible until he saw it happen.

nb n!gga

Well ?

Originally posted by ILS
Maul's done both.

"Fortunately there was a human officer at the checkpoint, asking those coming and going to state their business. It was ridiculously easy for Maul to cloak himself in the Force and thus slip by the dim-witted fellow."
―Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

For Stasis, he held Satine in Stasis, and for Terror/Fear, I'm sure he's instilled fear in people before but the most obvious example I can think of is putting an Iktochi telepath into a coma by looking at him.

There's also him surviving being cut in half, which was credited to his strength and knowledge of the Dark Side. It's unprecedented as a feat and was something Sidious hadn't considered possible until he saw it happen.

Hmm, not air-tight.

When did he stasis Satine? I thought he choked her. Regardless by all accounts the Wrath is easily on par with him in terms of advanced techniques, if not superior. I feel we've established that the Wrath has been underestimated.

Unprecedented except for Simus who lived as a head, you mean. Oh and Revan coming back from the dead. And Sion. Actually, I think Draagh came back from more damage than Maul did maybe.

Originally posted by ILS
Maul has shown all of this aside from Beast Control (which is pretty basic) and Drain, in addition to extremely advanced Mechu-Deru.

This is my crack at consolidating everything Force-related for him, sans comic stuff which I could put in a zip file or something:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11QQsVSAmA3heIduRj5GuuuQVGGZCzkOEB3XK_zDCwEU/edit?usp=sharing Mm, that's a nice barrier feat there. And more praise for Maul from Palpatine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hmm, not air-tight.

When did he stasis Satine? I thought he choked her. Regardless by all accounts the Wrath is easily on par with him in terms of advanced techniques, if not superior. I feel we've established that the Wrath has been underestimated.

Unprecedented except for Simus who lived as a head, you mean. Oh and Revan coming back from the dead. And Sion. Actually, I think Draagh came back from more damage than Maul did maybe. If by Stasis you mean leaving someone suspended in one place without the need for gesture, that's what he did to her.

I don't know, Wrath is meant to have knowledge of all these techniques, but then Maul should have just as if not more knowledge than people like Ventress and Sidious' other underlings, who have working talent with necromancy/Force drain/alchemy and other ancient practices. Not to mention the Sith archives Maul was allowed to peruse which he used to learn the histories of Revan/Malak, Kun, Bane and so on. Bound to have found some cool shit in there.

Simus lived in a jar which acted as life support, Maul remained conscious after being cut in half, travelled halfway across the galaxy, constructed functioning spider legs for himself and lived in dogpoop for 12 years surviving on pure hatred and the odd bit of raw meat - kinda different. Revan and Sion are weird cases, don't have much to add there (plus Revan is beyond Wrath anyway).

Stasis is supposed to be a telepathic freezing of an opponent, but no one told Drew Karpyshyn that so it's debatable now.

Maul is a mediocre Force user because his feats of power have been, by and large, widely been replicated. He hasn't shown much knowledge of the Sith techniques in combat, despite having plenty of opportunities to showcase them. So all that's left, I shall await the next season of Rebels before casting judgement to see if he's picked up any new tricks. I'm not exactly holding my breath.

Originally posted by ILS
If by Stasis you mean leaving someone suspended in one place without the need for gesture, that's what he did to her.

I don't know, Wrath is meant to have knowledge of all these techniques, but then Maul should have just as if not more knowledge than people like Ventress and Sidious' other underlings, who have working talent with necromancy/Force drain/alchemy and other ancient practices. Not to mention the Sith archives Maul was allowed to peruse which he used to learn the histories of Revan/Malak, Kun, Bane and so on. Bound to have found some cool shit in there.

Simus lived in a jar which acted as life support, Maul remained conscious after being cut in half, travelled halfway across the galaxy, constructed functioning spider legs for himself and lived in dogpoop for 12 years surviving on pure hatred and the odd bit of raw meat - kinda different. Revan and Sion are weird cases, don't have much to add there (plus Revan is beyond Wrath anyway).

It isn't. It's paralysis, so I guess that is another thing the Wrath has over Maul.

That seems an awful lot like a bunch of speculation. Mauls never displayed anything like the techniques you named. Just because Ventress can do something doesn't suggest Maul can. Sidious trained Maul to be a weapon, he had no need to teach him necromancy and alchemy. The Wrath isn't meant to have these techniques, he does. Maul can't say the same about the things you're suggesting he might possess. And learning about peoples histories isn't remotely the same thing as learning their techniques, lol.

So Maul is better at losing then. Good for him. The Wrath can shape the Force to become nearly invulnerable. Personally I find that more useful than not dying when cut in half.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't. It's paralysis, so I guess that is another thing the Wrath has over Maul.

That seems an awful lot like a bunch of speculation. Mauls never displayed anything like the techniques you named. Just because Ventress can do something doesn't suggest Maul can. Sidious trained Maul to be a weapon, he had no need to teach him necromancy and alchemy. The Wrath isn't meant to have these techniques, he does. Maul can't say the same about the things you're suggesting he might possess. And learning about peoples histories isn't remotely the same thing as learning their techniques, lol.

So Maul is better at losing then. Good for him. The Wrath can shape the Force to become nearly invulnerable. Personally I find that more useful than not dying when cut in half. Plenty of people who would massacre the Wrath have never shown Stasis, nor is it noted as being a particularly esoteric technique - hence why it pretty much just surfaces in RPG games.

Not really. I've proven in other threads that Maul was meant to be much more than a weapon, and TCW makes this abundantly clear as well. If you can read what I've linked below and still believe Maul is just a weapon, you're being willfully ignorant, which isn't exactly an issue for me.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/?page=1#js-message-16188923

Besides, "just a weapon" has got to be the shittest excuse used against Maul ever. Being a warrior is pretty much the Wrath's only job, and it's a role highly idolised and respected in the Sith Order. Strengthening your connection to the Dark Side through conflict and combat, and making it your life's mission to kill the Jedi is Sith doctrine 101, but apparently Malgus, Ulic, Wrath, and every other Sith-Warrior type other than Maul escapes the label "weapon" or "assassin" because... reasons?

Srsly, making fun of a Sith for being good at one of the most important things Sith do is the equivalent of criticising an MMA fighter for only being good at fighting. It's illogical and arbitrary.

Ventress is a Dark Jedi who had scraped the surface of Sith training, Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith to have ever existed and was meant to be capable of carrying on the RoT. Sidious' Force Drain minions don't even register. Even if Maul isn't capable of those precise techniques, he's clearly of a higher calibre irregardless. Ergo, I don't find SWTOR saying what Force techniques a Sith Warrior archetype may be capable of overly compelling, especially in the absence of the Wrath not having shown anything with them. I'll give you brownie points for the part about histories though, since you seem kind of perturbed about this whole discussion.

"can shape the Force to become nearly invulnerable" sounds like some awesome hyperbole bruh, so much better than surviving one of the worst injuries sustained by a Sith in the mythos, which was explicitly noted to be a monumental demonstration of Dark Side knowledge and power, even relative to Sidious's own knowing. It's almost like the source material is spelling it out for us or something.

Originally posted by ILS
Plenty of people who would massacre the Wrath have never shown Stasis, nor is it noted as being a particularly esoteric technique - hence why it pretty much just surfaces in RPG games.

Not really. I've proven in other threads that Maul was meant to be much more than a weapon, and TCW makes this abundantly clear as well. If you can read what I've linked below and still believe Maul is just a weapon, you're being willfully ignorant, which isn't exactly an issue for me.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-vs-maul-read-1765585/?page=1#js-message-16188923

Besides, "just a weapon" has got to be the shittest excuse used against Maul ever. A warrior is pretty much the Wrath's only job, and it's a role highly idolised and respected in the Sith Order. Strengthening your connection to the Dark Side through conflict and combat, and making it your life's mission to kill the Jedi is Sith doctrine 101, but apparently Malgus, Ulic, Wrath, and every other Sith-Warrior type other than Maul escapes the label "weapon" or "assassin" because... reasons?

Srsly, making fun of a Sith for being good at one of the most important things Sith do is the equivalent of criticising an MMA fighter for only being good at fighting. It's illogical and arbitrary.

Ventress is a Dark Jedi who had scraped the surface of Sith training, Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith to have ever existed and was meant to be capable of carrying on the RoT. Sidious' Force Drain minions don't even register. Even if Maul isn't capable of those precise techniques, he's clearly of a higher calibre irregardless. Ergo, I don't find SWTOR saying what Force techniques a Sith Warrior archetype may be capable of overly compelling, especially in the absence of the Wrath not having shown anything with them. I'll give you brownie points for the part about histories though, since you seem kind of perturbed about this whole discussion.

"can shape the Force to become nearly invulnerable" sounds like some awesome hyperbole bruh, so much better than surviving one of the worst injuries sustained by a Sith in the mythos, which was explicitly noted to be a monumental demonstration of Dark Side knowledge and power, even relative to Sidious's own knowing. It's almost like the source material is spelling it out for us or something.

I.... don't care? We're not discussing who can beat whose ass, we're discussing force knowledge. Beni directly compared Maul to the Wrath in this regard and its evident he was wrong in his assessment. Stop getting so defensive.

It's not an issue for me either, since I don't care about Maul's competency in other area's. Combatively he was built into a living weapon and shows no evidence of higher, more esoteric Force abilities. Rant all you like, its still a fact that the Wrath does show more, better powers than Maul. There's no evidence Maul was trained in sorcery, drain, alchemy or other esoteric abilities. Sidious could have just not wished to dilute Maul's training by teaching him certain techniques. Or have just not gotten around to it. Or perhaps he just didn't have the talent in those areas. The reason doesn't matter, it won't change the fact that Maul hasn't displayed that he can do these things.

I didn't make fun of him at all, you added the "just" part yourself. Nice kneejerk reaction though. Definitely aren't insecure there.

And yet Ventress has actually displayed these abilities whereas Maul...... has not. Perhaps Ventress just had talent in these area's that Maul lacked. I mean, doesn't she have some Nightsister training? Maul being highly trained doesn't mean jack diddly about what he was trained in, which is evidently mostly physical drills. Maul being more powerful and more versed in Sith Lore doesn't mean he can do everything lesser adepts can. Its fine for him to have just happened not to have been trained in certain things. I wouldn't suggest that the Wrath can perform sorcery and alchemy just because crappier Sith in the Empire can. He's versed in a different field. I'm not suggesting Maul is bad, despite how you seem to be reacting. I'm only responding to a specific thing.

I think its obvious that you're the one who's perturbed here, since you're the one who jumped in and started getting heated when I did nothing to offend you. You're the one skewing facts and reaching to make Maul look more impressive here.

I doubt its hyperbole since its' describing an actual power, and its mentioned at other points that the Wrath can use the Force to tank damage. It is better though. Since tanking injury is way better than not dying to injury. I'd rather not get hurt in the first place thanks. And like I said, Draagh displayed the same power and the Wrath still whooped his ass and is evidently better than him completely.

Wrath > Maul because stasis seems to be your current stance, yeah not convinced.

Nice strawman. My stance is merely that Maul isn't "more advanced" as you said, and that the Wrath is on par with him in that regard if not better. He also possesses drain, beast control and force fear. While the only power Maul seems to have over the Wrath is surviving bisection and machine reading. Yeah, not convinced.

My main grievance with your post, Neph, is that you're literally counting the number of different techniques as if that's the be-all and end-all of how valuable they are, or how well we can measure someone's Force knowledge. You even arbitrarily added in that we're not allowed to mention techniques that aren't "useful in combat" one minute and then in your next post retracting that by saying "We're not discussing who can beat whose ass, we're discussing force knowledge."

You're all over the place, and yeah, I do think you're kind of perturbed at the notion of someone comparing Maul to Wrath, given that you shit on Maul every two seconds. I'm here to dispute your sillier comments due to knowing quite a lot about the character, you're here to fanwank.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nice strawman. My stance is merely that Maul isn't "more advanced" as you said, and that the Wrath is on par with him in that regard if not better. He also possesses drain, beast control and force fear. While the only power Maul seems to have over the Wrath is surviving bisection and machine reading. Yeah, not convinced. Originally posted by Nephthys
Rant all you like, its still a fact that the Wrath does show more, better powers than Maul.Not really what you said here hon. #exposed

Anyway, Maul fed off Kenobi's rage, draining his power, and sent a guy into a coma with a look. He has that shit. On the other hand I don't recall moment where the Wrath dulled the Force connection of a Jedi of Jinn or Kenobi's calibre, or negated Force lightning. But yeah, I reckon if you cut the Wrath in half he'd die, and never built a weapon as cool as Maul's, he'd probably need the GTN for that.

Originally posted by ILS
My main grievance with your post, Neph, is that you're literally counting the number of different techniques as if that's the be-all and end-all of how valuable they are, or how well we can measure someone's Force knowledge. You even arbitrarily added in that we're not allowed to mention techniques that aren't "useful in combat" one minute and then in your next post retracting that by saying "We're not discussing who can beat whose ass, we're discussing force knowledge."

You're all over the place, and yeah, I do think you're kind of perturbed at the notion of someone comparing Maul to Wrath, given that you shit on Maul every two seconds. I'm here to dispute your sillier comments due to knowing quite a lot about the character, you're here to fanwank.

I was speaking in the context of Beni's statement of "I'd say he's particular impressive as Sith Warrior tbh, beyond his exceptional ability in TK, TP etc. he's evidently mastered a lot of techniques designed to make him more exceptional and effective in combat." Hence thats the angle I came into this at. And I didn't just mention how many techniques they know, though I do feel that the Wrath knowing several advanced abilities that Maul doesn't is relevant to a comparison, I also mentioned that the Wraths command of the Darkside was legendary.

I wasn't here to fanwank, I asked for why Beni thought as he did and gave him some info I wasn't sure he knew about. Then you butted in and made it an argument.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not really what you said here hon. #exposed

Anyway, Maul fed off Kenobi's rage, draining his power, and sent a guy into a coma with a look. He has that shit. On the other hand I don't recall moment where the Wrath dulled the Force connection of a Jedi of Jinn or Kenobi's calibre, or negated Force lightning. But yeah, I reckon if you cut the Wrath in half he'd die, and never built a weapon as cool as Maul's, he'd probably need the GTN for that.

I don't see how that contradicts each other.

All Sith can feed on rage to some degree and sending some random noob into a coma isn't as good as overwhelming the mind of a Jedi. And lol, PoD reveals that its a basic part of combat to obscure an opponents precog like Maul did to Kenobi. Trainee Bane was doing that shit to Fohargh. And the Wrath can contain lightning in his blade and toss it back at opponents, he does it to Baras. Thats a step above getting your ass grilled by a random Nightsister.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how that contradicts each other.

All Sith can feed on rage to some degree and sending some random noob into a coma isn't as good as overwhelming the mind of a Jedi. And lol, PoD reveals that its a basic part of combat to obscure an opponents precog like Maul did to Kenobi. Trainee Bane was doing that shit to Fohargh. And the Wrath can contain lightning in his blade and toss it back at opponents, he does it to Baras. Thats a step above getting your ass grilled by a random Nightsister. I don't know friend, you seem suddenly less convinced of the Wrath's superiority. Figures I guess.

Right, he fed off Kenobi's rage, empowering homself in the process, I fail to see how that is different from the Wrath's ability to "drain the energy of their enemies to further strengthen their resolve" other than whatever false contexts you might try to construct.

And what Jedi? Exactly?

So Fohargh > Jinn now, I see. mmm

But nah, I'm more impressed by negating lightning through innate abilities than with a the aid of a conductor.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't know friend, you seem suddenly less convinced of the Wrath's superiority. Figures I guess.

Right, he fed off Kenobi's rage, empowering homself in the process, I fail to see how that is different from the Wrath's ability to "drain the energy of their enemies to further strengthen their resolve" other than whatever false contexts you might try to construct.

And what Jedi? Exactly?

So Fohargh > Jinn now, I see. mmm

But nah, I'm more impressed by negating lightning through innate abilities than with a the aid of a conductor.

I'm still unsure how exactly you think you're tripping me up here. I'm allowed to hold a position and still possess enough flexibility to argue above it at times if the facts support it. Its not as if I didn't include "if not better" in my statement.

Because..... thats entirely different? Draining the energy of enemies is totally different from feeding on their anger. Thats obviously a different ability, not even nearly similar.

No one in particular, they just mind**** a Jedi in combat. Go check it out in Ants RT.

yes that is exactly what I said good jorb. Honestly though, that Kenobi was so freaked by such a basic ability doesn't say much good about him. Maybe PT Jedi just suck at fighting compared with the lofty heights of the BoD era Sith.

Pfft, Maul tanking some nobody Nightsisters lightning isn't nearly as good as containing and tossing back Darth Baras' lightning. Does Maul even use the Force there, lol. Come on man, at least start trying.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I believe there's a quote where Sidious is speaking to Vader saying Dooku was a stepping stone for Anakin while Maul was a "true loss."

Canon. Not Legends.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In general yeah, but I can't think of many if any examples of it being applied effectively in combat, certainly not the weaken your opponent, apart from Lord Scourge, for whom it was regarded as exceptional.

He didn't weaken anyone. He remained fresh and strong as the Jedi tired, which Dooku also did in the AotC junior novel, Vader did in the ESB junior novel (presumably), and so on. Consume Essence is a basic Sith power.



Only the RotS novel actually contradicts it.



Yes, and that Sidious never actually cheated death doesn't mean he lacks the ability to do so.



I'm discussing Legends here. I've already said that Canon places Maul in higher esteem.



Maybe. We don't know how much of the dark side the Wrath has explored in specific detail, either. Based on telekinesis showings, that's not all that likely, though.



Why would he try to save face in the equivalent of private memoirs?



It goes both ways in Legends, as I've said.

On a side note, Maul's potential means the absolute square root of jack shit, lol. People need to stop bringing it up. You can debate that his potential seemed to be greater than Talzin's or Sidious' - he was still an afterthought in their fight on Dathomir. It's knowledge and mastery that defines your actual, effective power, not raw power, or Anakin would slaughterhouse the mythos. Heck, Asajj Ventress, Obi-Wan etc. could be argued to have more potential than Tyranus, but he ragdolls them all the same.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maybe. We don't know how much of the dark side the Wrath has explored in specific detail, either. Based on telekinesis showings, that's not all that likely, though.

read my comments

ILS, your thread doesn't have Maul Draining anything. Or using Stasis.

Pardon me. ILS said "except for Drain", which I misread. I could've sworn Maul's shown Beast Control at some point, though.

Anyway, here's the thing. Maul's definitely underrated and deserves some credit. But the arguments here seem a bit strange - some things that happen quite a bit in the mythos are being brought up as huge for Maul, yet it's not considered that way in the cases of other characters?

"Being trained in Sith lore" or perusing the archives? That's incredibly vague and we don't know how much he had access to or how much time he spent in there. And learning powers from there and then practicing them etc. is another thing entirely. I also like how Maul looking at the archives to an unspecified extent or Dooku having a shelf of ambiguous holocrons is treated as such a big deal, yet Atris, who on top of whatever she had access to as the Head Archivist of the Order, studied dozens of Sith holocrons which specifically contained teachings of combat and the Force, is dismissed as having knowledge of no particular note.

That said, somebody needs to post the quote pertaining to Maul's ability to peruse the archives for more detail - because "studying Sith lore" or whatever Beni posted means the square root of jack shit. I'm sure Maul has better.

Maul's survival and Sidious being surprised is kind of dumb and comes from Sam Witwer, who isn't an official source (worth taking into account, but it's much like the author quotes). In the context of Canon, it is a big deal, but as we're discussing Legends here, it's not that big of a deal - nor does Witwer's quote hold in Legends because the Plagueis novel specifically has Plagueis revealing to Sidious about Gean surviving her duel with Gravid, where she survived worse injuries than Maul. Sion also gets mentioned in Darth Plagueis.

To elaborate on why it's just a showing of immense hatred, not a showing of knowledge, and not that overwhelming in the grand scheme of things - ****ing Maw was able to survive after being cut in half. Sion held his body together despite the flesh itself being ravaged, mutilated and decomposing, and his skeletal fracture having several thousand fractures and breaks. His whole body shouldn't have even been kept together, yet it was - through nothing more than sheer will and hatred. The same goes for Maw. Maul surviving the bisection was through sheer hate, not Force knowledge, based on how others in the past have survived that sort of stuff. That Jedi who claimed "I believe Maul's knowledge of the dark side kept him from dying" is full of shit and I'm not sure why they're being taken as an accurate databank of knowledge on the dark side of the Force. They obviously don't know much about it and it's purely their own speculation. You're reaching if you think it's anything else.

Maul clearly survived on hate, based on both past displays of the same showing as well as the scan of Maul after he tumbled into the abyss. Every other source relating to Maul's survival also claims it was rage and hatred that sustained him, and no other source to my knowledge (certainly no official ones) claim that it's due to knowledge.

Bottom line - it's not a feat of Force knowledge, and it's been replicated by Force users who are widely claimed to be among the weakest named Force users in history. It's not nearly as big as it's made out to be, unless we're also putting Maw and Sion high up.

Also, IIRC, Lucas does say at one point that Maul/Dooku were expendable but Anakin wasn't - I'll have to find it.

Canon is a different continuity altogether from Legends, however, the holistic point of Maul surviving his bisection - that he's very powerful and knowledgeable for doing so - remains. That point doesn't disappear when discussing Legends just because X or Y did something similar. If X or Y were hailed as being extremely powerful for performing those feats, fair enough, otherwise it's just an arbitrary comparison of a Canon feat to ones from Legends which doesn't consider any context.

Also, I'll get you the relevant quotes noting that it was a showing of knowledge as well as power.

Yes, and that Sidious never actually cheated death doesn't mean he lacks the ability to do so.

That's awfully magnanimous of him, staying dead when he could have chosen to survive...

He clearly did give a shit. Did you want him openly sobbing about it ?

Originally posted by Unbowed
That's awfully magnanimous of him, staying dead when he could have chosen to survive...

Exploding and being bisected are different things. And Palpatine's ability to cheat death may not have been applicable to how he died in RotJ. All we know is that he can cheat death. It's ambiguous how, of course, but it is implied to be similar to Maul's case.

Originally posted by ILS
Canon is a different continuity altogether from Legends, however, the holistic point of Maul surviving his bisection - that he's very powerful and knowledgeable for doing so - remains. That point doesn't disappear when discussing Legends just because X or Y did something similar. If X or Y were hailed as being extremely powerful for performing those feats, fair enough, otherwise it's just an arbitrary comparison of a Canon feat to ones from Legends which doesn't consider any context.

Also, I'll get you the relevant quotes noting that it was a showing of knowledge as well as power.

Yes, as I said, in Canon, it's very good, but in Legends, it's not that overwhelming. And sure, you have to be very powerful do it - just "Sion very powerful".

I've been arguing this solely in a Legends context.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Exploding and being bisected are different things. And Palpatine's ability to cheat death may not have been applicable to how he died in RotJ. All we know is that he can cheat death. It's ambiguous how, of course, but it is implied to be similar to Maul's case.



Yes, as I said, in Canon, it's very good, but in Legends, it's not that overwhelming. And sure, you have to be very powerful do it - just "Sion very powerful".

I've been arguing this solely in a Legends context. The point being, even Legends has to recognise a character as being extremely powerful if the overarching point of the feat is Maul being extremely powerful. I'm not measuring the feat as a feat like we would measure how many tonnes of TK someone can lift, I'm measuring it in terms of how significant it's making Maul out to be. Outside of debating terms, Legends is defunct, and in debating terms, Sion hasn't done anything to warrant Sidious' attention.

Originally posted by ILS
The point being, even Legends has to recognise a character as being extremely powerful if the overarching point of the feat is Maul being extremely powerful. I'm not measuring the feat as a feat like we would measure how many tonnes of TK someone can lift, I'm measuring it in terms of how significant it's making Maul out to be. Outside of debating terms, Legends is defunct, and in debating terms, Sion hasn't done anything to warrant Sidious' attention.

Sion warranted Plagueis' attention in the Plagueis novel - and Sidious' as well.

That aside, as I said, Maul's very powerful. I'm just saying that the survival itself doesn't represent a level of power beyond Maw or Sion.

And when do I get to see the quote for how much lore Sidious showed Maul? And even then, does viewing a source equate to learning all the knowledge there?

Originally posted by ILS
The point being, even Legends has to recognise a character as being extremely powerful if the overarching point of the feat is Maul being extremely powerful. I'm not measuring the feat as a feat like we would measure how many tonnes of TK someone can lift, I'm measuring it in terms of how significant it's making Maul out to be

Well that's a rather horrendous case for Maul, swords.

I respect that the bolts and screws might be a little rusty... and becoming rustier with every sabbatical, but I can't help feeling - that even you - are beginning to lose faith in the feats do not matter manifesto. So rather then comparing feats, we have a poor case from authorial intent while breaking the fourth wall by muddling the suspense of disbelief. If we are arguing from authorial intent, the their are essentially two reasons why the writers want Maul to survive bisection:

1) To present him as an extremely powerful character
2) Because they want to re-introduce him in story after his 'death', and they need to find some plot armour for him to do that

If we're going with the First point, then the same applies to Sion - and on a much grander scale since the Old Sith makes light work of evading death, Maul does not. If we're going with the second, then Maul's feat can be hand-waved as Plot Induced Stupidity rather than some awesome feat of power for him.

Dear lord.

@Nova

When I was referring to "histories" I was just mentioning that Maul had enough access to be able to talk competently about Bane, Kun, Ulic, Revan and Malak, and he had enough access to build his saberstaff based on Kun's design. But, if you want to keep clinging onto the point, which isn't critical to my argument, on you go.

You're still missing my point regarding the intent behind Maul's feat. I'll give you another example; producing or deflecting Force lightning, or lifting an X-wing, or throwing senate pods, in movie/canon terms, is hailed as being something worthy of only the highest tier Force users. Maul's survival is along the same lines. That's how Canon works.

You then muddy the waters by adding in Legends, where yes, plenty of characters not necessarily revered for being uber powerful have managed those aforementioned feats and then some. That's why I'm saying sure, the feat in and of itself might not be as impressive as in Legends due to the fact someone let a Bioware writer loose with a script, which provoked him to creating a Sith who pretty illogically holds his body together constantly, passively, with his mind, meanwhile it's established in the primary canon that just surviving a simple bisection is hailed as extremely impressive.

But, the intent, or accolade, however you want to put it - that Maul has great power and knowledge of the Dark Side - remains. Meanwhile, Sion didn't receive the same praise, to my knowledge. I can't explain it any better than that.

Nova has easily overtaken ILS tbh.

https://www.talkspace.com/ - I genuinely think this will be of use to you

There is conflicting sources concerning how Sion does what he does. Avellone suggests he holds his body together telekinetically, but other sources state it's purely dictated by his will - in which his anger is described as more prominent than "perhaps" any other Sith in Star Wars, Palpatine included.

KOTOR 2 power level constistency was really done poorly, wasn't it? mmm

KOTOR 2 just strikes me as a shitty, poorly considered attempt at introducing uber new concepts like Sion, Force drain and Force Wound.

Which is why it's inconsistent. Within the context of the game he's by all means a powerhouse, but that doesn't translate to the Revan Novel and onwards.

Maw came before Sion. That's not a valid argument.

And Sion has plenty of hype outside of KotOR II.

Originally posted by ILS
@Nova

When I was referring to "histories" I was just mentioning that Maul had enough access to be able to talk competently about Bane, Kun, Ulic, Revan and Malak, and he had enough access to build his saberstaff based on Kun's design. But, if you want to keep clinging onto the point, which isn't critical to my argument, on you go.

I still haven't seen the quote. Knowing about Revan/Malak/Kun etc. means nothing because it's common galactic history. The saberstaff is a fair point, though, but I'll need to see more before I subscribe to the notion that he learnt anything significant.



I'm not missing any point. I've already admitted that it's a great feat in Canon. In Legends, which is the only area I'm debating in, it's not that great.



Well, Sion's supposed to be pretty powerful, but I'm referring more to this forum's perception of who is or isn't powerful.



Sounds like an ad hominem here. First of all, Sion wasn't written by BioWare. Secondly, there's nothing "illogical" about it - given that a host of sources outside of KotOR II (with different authors) have maintained the exact same thing about Sion. They obviously didn't find it illogical enough for a retcon.

That aside, Sion was hardly the first one to do something like this. Maw replicated Maul's feat prior to 2000 - prior to Sion's existence. Maul's resurrection feat was made well after both of these instances, so in actuality, Maul's feat is the one ignorantly defying canonical history (canonical up to then, at least). But up to that point, these feats of sheer survival (and I don't mean just Maw & Sion - Vader/Revan willing themselves back from the dead, etc.) were all feats of sheer willpower. Not knowledge. As I said, it's great in Canon, but with respect to Legends, Maul's survival is the one written in a context entirely removed from continuity. I mean, TCW tends to depict Jedi/Sith Force powers in a very rudimentary and restrained way relative to virtually every EU work, not to mention how ignorant TCW is of EU continuity anyway. Of course Maul's feat would be amazing/a feat of knowledge there. But once you apply it to the context of Legends continuity, then it isn't, and by virtue of more than just BioWare's antics. There's nothing that can change that.



"Great power and knowledge of the dark side"? Sure, Sion's had that - and better.

Any complaint of 'bad-writing' is fruitless when arguing for Maul's reconnected survival.