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Yeah, the Chimp from the recent Planet of the Apes movies.

Fight in an empty mall.

Start facing each other from opposite ends of the food court.

No weapons other than what can be picked up in a regular Shopping mall... if they get the chance to go look for any.

Cap should take this chimp to the zoo...or something. Cap wins is what I'm saying.

Maybe... I dunno. I'd think the strength and speed may be fairly even, Cap has a martial arts advantage but Caeser is an agile, semi-wild animal, he's got the "hand feet" for grappling and Chimps have a hella strong bite with large teeth. Also wild chimps are known for being extremely aggressive in fights, even ripping each others genitals off.

Fairly even? Cap's strength + his Cap Aura has him slinging around Spider-Man, tangling with Loki and Ultron Prime, and knocking Tony around in full armor. In a full sprint Cap easily speeds past speeding cars, and he's agile enough to dance around with Spidey of all people. Cap's full force punch would cave in Caesar's skull.

A super soldier who can punch through subs vs a monkey...

I love all this... he can punch through a sub window... a full force punch should cave his head in. Yet, he's hit many many normal humans and enhanced ones at that... Nobody got their head caved in. Not once. Punching inanimate objects clearly doesn't equal punching living ones. Let's try and remember that people

Cap holds back. In winter soldier one of the guys on the boat called him out ob it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I love all this... he can punch through a sub window... a full force punch should cave his head in. Yet, he's hit many many normal humans and enhanced ones at that... Nobody got their head caved in. Not once. Punching inanimate objects clearly doesn't equal punching living ones. Let's try and remember that people

Let's try and remember that Cap isn't a murderer like Superman or Batman, so he doesn't go around hitting normal people with his full strength.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Maybe... I dunno. I'd think the strength and speed may be fairly even

A wizard casts a magic spell and Caesar suddenly finds himself in the latest Captain America movie. Specifically the scene where Cap is about to physically stop a helicopter from taking off. Caesar tries to stop it the way Cap did, what happens?

Cap won't have a problem

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Cap holds back. In winter soldier one of the guys on the boat called him out ob it.

Only that isn't really true is it. In the elevator scene for example, he was clearly pissed and knocking guys back hard against the glass. Shoot, he even uppercut a guy so hard he flew against the ceiling of the elevator and smashed it. Yet, you're telling me he was holding back there? Okay, don't believe it. An uppercut so strong that it could lift somebody off the floor, but not just lift, send them flying in the air... that could kill somebody. You don't see anybody alive with kind of power to send people flying like that, and people still die. That shot and others could kill people, so that eliminates the theory he's holding back. Now what?

Originally posted by Surtur
A wizard casts a magic spell and Caesar suddenly finds himself in the latest Captain America movie. Specifically the scene where Cap is about to physically stop a helicopter from taking off. Caesar tries to stop it the way Cap did, what happens?

he stop it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only that isn't really true is it. In the elevator scene for example, he was clearly pissed and knocking guys back hard against the glass. Shoot, he even uppercut a guy so hard he flew against the ceiling of the elevator and smashed it. Yet, you're telling me he was holding back there? Okay, don't believe it. An uppercut so strong that it could lift somebody off the floor, but not just lift, send them flying in the air... that could kill somebody. You don't see anybody alive with kind of power to send people flying like that, and people still die. That shot and others could kill people, so that eliminates the theory he's holding back. Now what?
Except that proves my point of if cap wants it, he can easily kill normal people, but chooses not to when he can. No one else in the elevator died.

So you're saying if Cap hit a normal person as hard as he was hitting Tony at the end of Civil War in his armor, or as hard as he was hitting Ultron Prime, or when he ripped an Ultron Drone in half...they'd be okay?

KT is just doing his normal crying/trolling routine.

Cap wins.

Of course he does. What has Caesar done strengthwise Cap hasn't already outshone? It's not like he fights otherworldly beings and super robots.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Except that proves my point of if cap wants it, he can easily kill normal people, but chooses not to when he can. No one else in the elevator died.

Incorrect, you just proved my theory. LESS than what Cap has done kills people. We see people killed all the time by stuff LESS than what Cap did in the elevator scene. Just because nobody happened to die, doesn't mean he was holding back, it simply means they didn't die. He hit them with shots capable of killing people, just because they didn't die, doesn't mean they couldn't have died. Which again, is the point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
he stop it.

Cool, enlighten us as to the feat Caesar performed in his own movies that show he can do it.

By feats, Cap is a good bit stronger.

Easy, we know the range in general that chimps are stronger than humans. We also know Caesar is their superior as well. So he'd be even above the top change for his species. Plus, he'd be able to rely on two pressure points to get the job down instead of using just his arms. Obviously I don't know that he could, but it's seems plausible. Now my question to you is, in the original movie it believe it was said how much stronger Cap is than a normal human. Now you might just have your answer then.

What feats do you have that prove he is stronger than Cap?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Easy, we know the range in general that chimps are stronger than humans. We also know Caesar is their superior as well. So he'd be even above the top change for his species. Plus, he'd be able to rely on two pressure points to get the job down instead of using just his arms. Obviously I don't know that he could, but it's seems plausible. Now my question to you is, in the original movie it believe it was said how much stronger Cap is than a normal human. Now you might just have your answer then.

So you actually don't have any feats that suggest he could do this, nothing he specifically did on panel.

As for how much stronger than a human the movie said Captain America is..I don't recall, but what it says is irrelevant. What is relevant is what Cap has done with his strength, and that is stuff Caesar has never been shown to match.

OZY vs. Caesar

Good one Inhuman, I like you

Originally posted by Surtur
So you actually don't have any feats that suggest he could do this, nothing he specifically did on panel.

As for how much stronger than a human the movie said Captain America is..I don't recall, but what it says is irrelevant. What is relevant is what Cap has done with his strength, and that is stuff Caesar has never been shown to match.

Actually it's totally relevant, as it is a canon fact just the same as any feat you can name. Likely more so, being that I could cite those as PIS moments, considering that verbal narration of the canon movie. So again, it's totally relevant what was said.

Feats trump statements, always have.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually it's totally relevant, as it is a canon fact just the same as any feat you can name. Likely more so, being that I could cite those as PIS moments, considering that verbal narration of the canon movie. So again, it's totally relevant what was said.

The only reason I can surmise that you would try to harp on these numbers so much is because the number given for Cap is close to the number of how many times stronger than a human chimps are supposed to be.

Which you will need more than that if you want to say Caesar is stronger. Feats matter.

Point to where I said he was stronger? Don't listen to the clownshoes known as Silent, claiming I said so. Quote me. I never said whether he's stronger or not. You asked if he could pull off that feat, I said likely so. That doesn't mean he's stronger or isn't.

You don't think he is stronger than Cap but you clearly feel Caesar is stronger than he ever showed in the movie.

If I'm not mistaken, chimps are around 3x stronger than humans. Cap seems a bit stronger than that.

Plus I could of sworn in the first movie they said the serum turned Cap into someone who was at the very peak of human potential. If true that is already one example of where what we are told is contradicted by what we actually see on screen.

Originally posted by FrothByte
If I'm not mistaken, chimps are around 3x stronger than humans. Cap seems a bit stronger than that.

They certainly can be, and Caesar is even stronger than them.

What has Caesar done with strength that you don't think a real chimp his size could do?

Originally posted by Surtur
Plus I could of sworn in the first movie they said the serum turned Cap into someone who was at the very peak of human potential. If true that is already one example of where what we are told is contradicted by what we actually see on screen.

That isn't necessarily a contradiction though. We have no real idea what a "peak" human can do as we've never seen one. For all we know, they could do what Cap has done. For all we know when a genius creates a drug with incredible properties, who are we to say what it could or couldn't do to make someone "peak" human (something we don't even know the limits of). So no, that isn't a contradiction

We do have an idea of the bodies limits though. For instance we have seen incidents where a mother might,momentarily, lift a car up a bit off the ground in order to save her child that is being crushed underneath. Things like that happen and often with consequences to the body after, like for instance I've heard of cases like I just described where the woman ended up breaking her legs as a result.

We have an idea of our limits and we surely have an idea of what would be way outside our limits.

Originally posted by Surtur
What has Caesar done with strength that you don't think a real chimp his size could do?

It was established in the movie that the chemicals the chimps were exposed to made them better than other chimps by proxy. When it comes to anything.. physical prowess... intelligence... etc etc. We further know that Caesar is even better than them... being that he was born (thus infused) with said chemical while still in his mothers womb. That was said to have caused it to be even more potent in him because he was still developing while getting boosted. Other were exposed much later in life.

Further, we know Chimps are ruled by a physical hierarchy. We still this established in the real world and in the Planet of the Apes movie world. When Caesar first went to the facility housing apes (while younger), he had to be subservient to the dominate chimp there. Once he defeated him physically, he became the leader. Further establishing him as being above normal chimps. He further reinforced this, by physical defeating another enhanced apes (Koba), even while physically injured. He defeated him prior as well, while not, and did so pretty easily. Again this was to a already enhanced chimp, clearly showing he's even above them.

You have this notion that people need to show how strong they are all the time. Sometimes people don't need to or have to lift stuff to achieve their goals. Doesn't mean they aren't strong. Were we ever shown how strong Thanos was in GOTG. They could've showed this in many ways, but the plot didn't need him to lift a building. Does that mean he's not strong? We never saw Odin lift anything in his appearance, does that mean he couldn't lift a car if he wanted to? I can go on and on with examples of this.

Um yeah dude if Odin didn't show the physical strength needed to lift a car..he can't lift it. Doesn't mean he needs a specific feat of lifting a car, but just any strength feat that would show him as having the needed strength to do so would be enough.

We certainly wouldn't just apply all of Thor's feats to Odin. Or if Asgardians as a whole had shown that on average they are all at least strong enough to lift up a car..then sure I'd have no problem saying Odin could. But these people are not like Kryptonians, they have wildly varying power levels.

Originally posted by Surtur
We do have an idea of the bodies limits though. For instance we have seen incidents where a mother might,momentarily, lift a car up a bit off the ground in order to save her child that is being crushed underneath. Things like that happen and often with consequences to the body after, like for instance I've heard of cases like I just described where the woman ended up breaking her legs as a result.

We have an idea of our limits and we surely have an idea of what would be way outside our limits.

No we don't. We've never seen a peak human. Even the incidents you reference clearly aren't that. You're forgetting about the SS and its properties. Part of which is a healing factor and overall making the body tougher and more durable. Thus he's able to do these things and lift these things without "breaking his legs also" Where as a human gets a sudden burst of adrenaline, doesn't make their legs more durable. So you're forgetting about the other properties Cap has that a normal human could never achieve from just working out a lot. Further, again you're dealing with a genius making a product to purposely increase many things. That has a level of ambiguity you can't account for. Who knows what it could do. It could take the body to a potential we've never seen, yet it's still possible.

Again, there is no for sure contradiction there. Which is the point.

If he's able to do things without breaking his legs and stuff like that it means he's gone beyond the peak of human potential, because humans can't really perform these types of feats without injury.

So yes, there is a contradiction. He's not peak human, he is above it. I'm also not sure how you could even say scientists today don't have any idea about the bodies limits, especially the physical limits.

When we operate at our peaks our bodies tend to not be able to handle it and we tend to be able to only do it in very short bursts. This isn't true for Cap, he's beyond any human.

Or if you want you can surely argue that Marvel itself has a different definition of what a human is truly capable of. Which is certainly true in the comics. Just like in comics Batman is "only human".

Originally posted by Surtur
Um yeah dude if Odin didn't show the physical strength needed to lift a car..he can't lift it. Doesn't mean he needs a specific feat of lifting a car, but just any strength feat that would show him as having the needed strength to do so would be enough.

We certainly wouldn't just apply all of Thor's feats to Odin. Or if Asgardians as a whole had shown that on average they are all at least strong enough to lift up a car..then sure I'd have no problem saying Odin could. But these people are not like Kryptonians, they have wildly varying power levels.

That's just it, you'd have to say Odin could. We know he could. He's Thor's superior in ever way imaginable. Which again is the point, he doesn't need to be shown lifting a car for us to know he can lift a damn car. Same thing with Thanos, was he shown lifting a building... or a car... or a huge object? Not so much. Does that mean he couldn't?

Lol what? If Thanos hasn't shown he is strong enough to lift a building why the f*ck could he lift a building? All he's done is sit in a chair.

What feat do you have to suggest he could lift a building? Being in charge is NOT a feat.

That is why you don't really see people using the movie version of Thanos in a fight..because we don't know how powerful he is yet, we've seen him do nothing but give orders and sit in a floating chair. We can speculate how powerful he will be, but we have to wait until we actual see him performing feats before we begin to say he can lift buildings.

Cap can't get drunk. I'm pretty sure every human can get drunk, so there's that

There is also the whole "survives in ice for decades" thing.

Originally posted by Surtur
If he's able to do things without breaking his legs and stuff like that it means he's gone beyond the peak of human potential, because humans can't really perform these types of feats without injury.

So yes, there is a contradiction. He's not peak human, he is above it. I'm also not sure how you could even say scientists today don't have any idea about the bodies limits, especially the physical limits.

When we operate at our peaks our bodies tend to not be able to handle it and we tend to be able to only do it in very short bursts. This isn't true for Cap, he's beyond any human.

Or if you want you can surely argue that Marvel itself has a different definition of what a human is truly capable of. Which is certainly true in the comics. Just like in comics Batman is "only human".

We're talking strength here. The other factors you're mentioning AREN'T strength related. You're referring to things such a durability and stamina, things the SS also increased. You keep seemingly forgetting this part. You forgot that strong men today have been shown squatting huge amounts of weight. They squatted 1,200 pounds... benched over a 1000 etc etc. That is without a healing factor or generally making your bones and muscles stronger. We've seen marathon runners go for miles and miles and barely be out of breathe. We've seen Cap out of breathe which is to say, he doesn't get a little winded. Now imagine a formula that made him the peak of ever single category imaginable for a human. You have NO idea what that would look like, nor does any doctor today. Further, you're forgetting in ambiguity of the SS and what it could do. Who knows how far it could take the human body. Scientists known what the body is more of less capable of. They have ZERO clue what a body could do that has a healing factor and bones and muscles stronger than anybody alive now or then. So no, they have no clue what a SS human could or couldn't do.

Originally posted by Surtur
Lol what? If Thanos hasn't shown he is strong enough to lift a building why the f*ck could he lift a building? All he's done is sit in a chair.

What feat do you have to suggest he could lift a building? Being in charge is NOT a feat.

That is why you don't really see people using the movie version of Thanos in a fight..because we don't know how powerful he is yet, we've seen him do nothing but give orders and sit in a floating chair. We can speculate how powerful he will be, but we have to wait until we actual see him performing feats before we begin to say he can lift buildings.

Which is my point. Do you actually believe Thanos isn't strong enough to lift a car? Is that what you're claiming. I know we haven't SEEN him lift a car, but when you know a firmly established character from comics, and what they are capable of... you should be able to say he can lift a damn car. Which is the point. He doesn't need to be shown doing so to know he could do so.

You left of the Odin example. We know he's Thor's superior in every way. Yet, he wasn't shown lifting a car, does that mean he can't?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It was established in the movie that the chemicals the chimps were exposed to made them better than other chimps by proxy. When it comes to anything.. physical prowess... intelligence... etc etc. We further know that Caesar is even better than them... being that he was born (thus infused) with said chemical while still in his mothers womb. That was said to have caused it to be even more potent in him because he was still developing while getting boosted. Other were exposed much later in life.

Further, we know Chimps are ruled by a physical hierarchy. We still this established in the real world and in the Planet of the Apes movie world. When Caesar first went to the facility housing apes (while younger), he had to be subservient to the dominate chimp there. Once he defeated him physically, he became the leader. Further establishing him as being above normal chimps. He further reinforced this, by physical defeating another enhanced apes (Koba), even while physically injured. He defeated him prior as well, while not, and did so pretty easily. Again this was to a already enhanced chimp, clearly showing he's even above them.

You have this notion that people need to show how strong they are all the time. Sometimes people don't need to or have to lift stuff to achieve their goals. Doesn't mean they aren't strong. Were we ever shown how strong Thanos was in GOTG. They could've showed this in many ways, but the plot didn't need him to lift a building. Does that mean he's not strong? We never saw Odin lift anything in his appearance, does that mean he couldn't lift a car if he wanted to? I can go on and on with examples of this.

I don't recall anything in the movie that specifically states that the chimps were enhanced physically. Specially not Ceasar. They were enhanced mentally, just not physically. If there was a part in there that was mentioned, I'd appreciate a quote or a video.

I'll have to watch it again for the specific reference. However, I thought it was clear it also helped him physically. The dad, who was suffering both mentally and physically, was improved after taking the drug. He was able to move around better, and do things like play the piano again, which he wasn't mentally and physically able to do in years. That was the entire point of the drug, it made him a new man again in many ways.

We further see this reinforced by Caesar physically beating the former patriarch of the Chimps in the facility. He was clearly the physically dominate one, and Caesar easily dispatches him. To say nothing of the fact, that it was SPECIFICALLY mentioned that Caesar had an even greater exposure to the chemical properties being exposed to them while in the womb. I believe they say they don't know all the benefits that more powerful exposure could have, but there are clearly more than the others exposed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'll have to watch it again for the specific reference. However, I thought it was clear it also helped him physically. The dad, who was suffering both mentally and physically, was improved after taking the drug. He was able to move around better, and do things like play the piano again, which he wasn't mentally and physically able to do in years. That was the entire point of the drug, it made him a new man again in many ways.

We further see this reinforced by Caesar physically beating the former patriarch of the Chimps in the facility. He was clearly the physically dominate one, and Caesar easily dispatches him. To say nothing of the fact, that it was SPECIFICALLY mentioned that Caesar had an even greater exposure to the chemical properties being exposed to them while in the womb. I believe they say they don't know all the benefits that more powerful exposure could have, but there are clearly more than the others exposed.

The dad was suffering from dementia IIRC, not from any physical ailments. He had difficulty coordinating himself and accomplishing physical tasks because his mind was wasting away - and it is the mind after all that tells the body how to accomplish specific actions. Once the formula fixed his mind, he was able to use his body properly.

When Ceasar first went into the facility, he got his ass completely beat by the resident dominant ape. Which shows that he wasn't stronger than a regular ape. He beat that chimp by using his brains and unleashing a gorilla.

All in all, I don't recall any reference in the movie that specifically says or shows that the chimps were enhanced physically.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The dad was suffering from dementia IIRC, not from any physical ailments. He had difficulty coordinating himself and accomplishing physical tasks because his mind was wasting away - and it is the mind after all that tells the body how to accomplish specific actions. Once the formula fixed his mind, he was able to use his body properly.

When Ceasar first went into the facility, he got his ass completely beat by the resident dominant ape. Which shows that he wasn't stronger than a regular ape. He beat that chimp by using his brains and unleashing a gorilla.

All in all, I don't recall any reference in the movie that specifically says or shows that the chimps were enhanced physically.

You're incorrect on when Caesar lost the first fight. You can tell, in the scene, he's much younger then. You can clearly see this. Then as time goes on, and he fully matures, he's clearly larger and stronger. He then clearly dominates the scene. He later, while badly injured, physically dominates Koba (the new prime male) easily and while injured.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're incorrect on when Caesar lost the first fight. You can tell, in the scene, he's much younger then. You can clearly see this. Then as time goes on, and he fully matures, he's clearly larger and stronger. He then clearly dominates the scene. He later, while badly injured, physically dominates Koba (the new prime male) easily and while injured.

How am I incorrect? He lost that first fight when he was in the facility. He lost to a regular ape, proving that he was not stronger than a regular ape. Yes he was young, but he was already exposed to the formula. If your theory is correct then he should already have been stronger than a regular ape.

Him winning against Koba doesn't prove anything. It just proves that he's stronger than Koba. Besides, which fight are you referring to, their fight in the first film or the 2nd?

Simply drop some feats that equal to or surpass Cap's.

Like holding up a car with one arm.

Or kicking a jeep out of his way.

Or breaking a jeep with a motorcycle.

Or keeping a helicopter from taking off.

Or booking it at 45+mph down the highway.

Or punching through subway glass.

Or fighting a super robot.

Or fighting a Frost Giant with super strength.

I could go on.

Is cap Stronger than Thanos King? I can't come up with feats for movie Thanos or Movie Odin greater than those... so what... Cap is stronger than them? You can think outside the box a little right?

Judging that pretty much every Marvel character is at least very similar to their comic counterpart power wise, if not strength wise. Then it's safe to assume Thanos is vastly stronger than Cap. Just like Thor is stronger than Cap or Hulk.

Don't try to pull that stuff.

Put up feats that we can compare since a fight is a direct comparison of who's stronger, faster, etc...

KT will never posts feats, he'll just continue to troll.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Is cap Stronger than Thanos King? I can't come up with feats for movie Thanos or Movie Odin greater than those... so what... Cap is stronger than them? You can think outside the box a little right?

I'm not pulling anything. I'm illustrating that people don't need lifting feats to prove how strong they are all the time. Sometimes the plot doesn't call for them to lift anything. So what. Which is the point I'm making. Some would say that you can only use movie feats, their comic feats don't apply. Like you though, I know these characters are based on comic book characters and thus they should be roughly the same as portrayed there. Thus, we can infer he should be vastly stronger than Cap.

Same thing here... we know Chimps or stronger than humans. It can range between 2 to 4 times stronger. We know Caesar is the best of the best, and likely stronger than normal chimps. We don't need to see him lift something then by proxy. We have a baseline for him. Understand what I'm saying now?

Is Silent posting again about the animals he never fended off? Or is he finally conceding that never happened, like we all already knew?

I told you that he'd refuse to back up his arguments with feats.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Is cap Stronger than Thanos King? I can't come up with feats for movie Thanos or Movie Odin greater than those... so what... Cap is stronger than them? You can think outside the box a little right?

Of course Thanos is most likely vastly more powerful than Captain America in every way. But he has no feats. I'm not sure why this bothers you? We can surely make assumptions, but those aren't feats. Which is why it's not a good idea to put him up against anybody until he gets feats.

These are not the comic versions. They have their own power levels that they need to establish. Thanos has so far established he can sit in a chair and give orders.

Caesar has feats though, Thanos doesn't. Stop bringing him up it's not the same at all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


Same thing here... we know Chimps or stronger than humans. It can range between 2 to 4 times stronger. We know Caesar is the best of the best, and likely stronger than normal chimps. We don't need to see him lift something then by proxy. We have a baseline for him. Understand what I'm saying now?

We actually don't have proof that Ceasar is stronger than a regular chimp. He's a leader of apes due to his superior intellect, not because he's the strongest. If that was the case then a gorilla should have been head.

Originally posted by FrothByte
We actually don't have proof that Ceasar is stronger than a regular chimp. He's a leader of apes due to his superior intellect, not because he's the strongest. If that was the case then a gorilla should have been head.

Only it wasn't just his physical intellect that made him stronger. He beat the dominant ape by beating him over the head with a tray. Then later, he beat the then dominate (also enhanced Chimp, Koba) two separate times in physical encounters. Thus further establishing his PHYSICAL superiority

Originally posted by Surtur
Of course Thanos is most likely vastly more powerful than Captain America in every way. But he has no feats. I'm not sure why this bothers you? We can surely make assumptions, but those aren't feats. Which is why it's not a good idea to put him up against anybody until he gets feats.

These are not the comic versions. They have their own power levels that they need to establish. Thanos has so far established he can sit in a chair and give orders.

Caesar has feats though, Thanos doesn't. Stop bringing him up it's not the same at all.

That is the point though, sometimes characters don't have physical feats and assumptions need to be made. We see this all the time in movies. It's a common theme. Sometimes they plot doesn't call on them to TEST their upper lifting limits. What is difficult to understand about that? The plot doesn't always call for it. Just like the plot didn't call for Odin or Thanos or state puff marshmellow guy to lift anything. Does that mean we assume Cap is stronger because he has? The point is exactly relevant

The plot indeed sometimes doesn't call for them to use their powers. However, that doesn't mean we make exceptions for these characters when it comes to feats. What it means is characters like that just shouldn't be used in the first place. But if you insist on trying to use one then yes they do need feats.

Movies/comics/cartoons/whatever are not made with these kind of debates in mind and thus it's inevitable you run into characters just not suitable for any kind of legit debate. The feat system isn't perfect, but in order to be fair it has to be applied all across the board.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only it wasn't just his physical intellect that made him stronger. He beat the dominant ape by beating him over the head with a tray. Then later, he beat the then dominate (also enhanced Chimp, Koba) two separate times in physical encounters. Thus further establishing his PHYSICAL superiority

Yeah, it established him as physically superior to Koba. It doesn't establish him as physically superior to every single regular chimp. After all, he got his ass beat up by a regular chimp when he first arrives in the facility.

So yeah, you still don't have proof that Ceasar is stronger than regular chimps.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah, it established him as physically superior to Koba. It doesn't establish him as physically superior to every single regular chimp. After all, he got his ass beat up by a regular chimp when he first arrives in the facility.

So yeah, you still don't have proof that Ceasar is stronger than regular chimps.

Why do you keep saying he lost the first fight and being disingenuous about it continually? Did you not see the movie? Did you happen to notice he was much younger and smaller when that happened? He clearly hadn't matured fully yet, but somehow you insist on using that as a low showing lol

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why do you keep saying he lost the first fight and being disingenuous about it continually? Did you not see the movie? Did you happen to notice he was much younger and smaller when that happened? He clearly hadn't matured fully yet, but somehow you insist on using that as a low showing lol

What, are you saying he didn't lose that fight? Him being young does not invalidate him losing the fight. He was nearly as big as the other chimp and he seemed like he already reached his full height at that point. And it was only a short time later that he fought Koba and broke out the other chimps from the lab.
So why are you willing to use his first fight against Koba as a valid feat but not his first loss against the chimp bully even though these 2 event happened closely to each other. Probably happened only months apart.

You also still haven't provided any proof that he is stronger than other chimps. It's certainly proven that he's stronger than Koba, that doesn't prove that he's stronger than other chimps.

Originally posted by FrothByte
What, are you saying he didn't lose that fight? Him being young does not invalidate him losing the fight. He was nearly as big as the other chimp and he seemed like he already reached his full height at that point. And it was only a short time later that he fought Koba and broke out the other chimps from the lab.
So why are you willing to use his first fight against Koba as a valid feat but not his first loss against the chimp bully even though these 2 event happened closely to each other. Probably happened only months apart.

You also still haven't provided any proof that he is stronger than other chimps. It's certainly proven that he's stronger than Koba, that doesn't prove that he's stronger than other chimps.

ItRe-watch the film, he seems to be a little smaller when he was bullied by the bully. He clearly hadn't reach his physical maturity yet. For Christ sake he was still domesticated at that point. He was still wearing a sweater. It was his first interaction with Chimps, let alone trying to fight one. I thought it was clear he hadn't reached his maturity yet.

Further, I don't know what you mean by he fought Koba in Dawn of the planet of the apes when he set him and the other apes free. I don't remember them fighting then. They fought in Dawn of the Planet of the apes once when Koba questioned his orders and then again at the end of the film. I don't remember him fighting him at all in Rise.

Just name what you think the most powerful thing Caesar has done is.

Dude. Just post some feats. We don't need a "base". We need feats to base off of and compare to Cap.

ALso since Chimps are about 3x-4x a human of comparable size, then Khan who is 5x a human should be stronger than most Chimps. And Cap is clearly his superior.

Originally posted by Surtur
Just name what you think the most powerful thing Caesar has done is.

Captured his heart.

jeez will this turn into 50 pages of stupidity?

Originally posted by Silent Master
KT is just doing his normal crying/trolling routine.

I know you arent calling someone out for trolling...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
ItRe-watch the film, he seems to be a little smaller when he was bullied by the bully. He clearly hadn't reach his physical maturity yet. For Christ sake he was still domesticated at that point. He was still wearing a sweater. It was his first interaction with Chimps, let alone trying to fight one. I thought it was clear he hadn't reached his maturity yet.

Further, I don't know what you mean by he fought Koba in Dawn of the planet of the apes when he set him and the other apes free. I don't remember them fighting then. They fought in Dawn of the Planet of the apes once when Koba questioned his orders and then again at the end of the film. I don't remember him fighting him at all in Rise.

Pretty sure Ceasar and Koba had some kind of altercation in the first movie even if only brief. But even if they didn't, then that just weakens your stance. Because at the end of the day you have no proof that Ceasar is any stronger than the average chimp of comparable size. The only proof you have is that he's stronger than Koba. Because the one time he actually fought a regular chimp he got his ass beat.

You're remembering wrong.

You keep trying to make a point about rocket winning but keep failing miserably. Caesar had never fought before and was still domesticated at that point. He clearly hadn't reached his physical maturity yet, and certainly not his functional maturity. You keep acting like Rocket is better and stronger than Koba, and that couldn't be further from the truth. If he was actually his physical superior, he would've taken things over when Caesar was apparently dead. He could've challenged Koba for control again, guess what, he didn't for a reason. Just like he could've challenged Caesar again after losing, but he didn't. Stop being disingenuous about the scene.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're remembering wrong.

You keep trying to make a point about rocket winning but keep failing miserably. Caesar had never fought before and was still domesticated at that point. He clearly hadn't reached his physical maturity yet, and certainly not his functional maturity. You keep acting like Rocket is better and stronger than Koba, and that couldn't be further from the truth. If he was actually his physical superior, he would've taken things over when Caesar was apparently dead. He could've challenged Koba for control again, guess what, he didn't for a reason. Just like he could've challenged Caesar again after losing, but he didn't. Stop being disingenuous about the scene.

I did not say that he beat Ceasar while Ceasar was at his peak. I said the only time Ceasar fought a regular ape, he lost. Yes he was young, I don't deny this. That still does nothing to support your claim though. What proof do you have that Ceasar is stronger than a regular chimp? Stop dodging the question and post proof.

So is there anyone else besides 1 person that feels Caesar even has a chance?

Kt is a troll.

Originally posted by Surtur
So is there anyone else besides 1 person that feels Caesar even has a chance?

Let me ask you, how much stronger is Cap than Caesar? Also what advantages does Cap hold over Caesar. Please answer:

1. Strength
2. Intelligence
3. Agility/Movement
4. Durability
5. Fighting Skill

So would you say Cap owns in all these?

KT, sometimes we agree; sometimes we don't. This is one of those times we don't and extremely so.

The only real advantages I give Caesar over Cap are agility and natural weapons(teeth). He also may be smarter, but not where it's going to matter in a face-off match. Caesar's agility advantage also relies heavily on environmental factors.

Imo, Cap would beat the crap out of Caesar, but would know he was in a fight as Caesar's formidable in his own right.

How do you disagree with me bud, I didn't even say Caesar would win this fight. In fact, I never even said who'd win. I was disputing this theory that Cap is considerably stronger than Caesar. Pretty much not much else. So I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with me about. However, as the list I put up shows, Caesar has advantages in some areas of the fight, which doesn't make this a stomp. So in essence, we actually agree mostly on this fight. It won't a walk in the park for Cap at all.

Caesar is mostly certainly smarter. Of that there can be no dispute. He's more agile with his movement. Strength, would be negligible for Cap imo. He has better fighting skill, but this is combated by Caesar animal instincts, weapons and rage. Cap has obviously better durability. My who point is, this isn't a walk in the park for Cap.

No worries then, thought you were saying Caesar had this, my error

I really wouldn't say that Caesar is smarter. He's smarter in some areas definitely, but Cap is quite a renowned tactician and commander. More so than Caesar. Cap has more battle experience and knowledge. We can get into how Cap probably knows more languages and mathematical equations than Ceasar but that probably won't be as important in this fight as his fight knowledge.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let me ask you, how much stronger is Cap than Caesar? Also what advantages does Cap hold over Caesar. Please answer:

1. Strength
2. Intelligence
3. Agility/Movement
4. Durability
5. Fighting Skill

So would you say Cap owns in all these?

I never said Cap was smarter or more agile.

He is stronger, how much stronger? Hard to say, but it's certainly more than "just a bit".

Durability? Superior, he's taken hits from people as strong as he is, and he is stronger than Caesar.

Fighting skill? I don't know, I find it irrelevant though, certainly Caesar's fighting skills aren't so awesome they will overcome the strength gap. Also don't make the mistake of thinking someone just being quick and agile necessarily shows off fighting skill, it doesn't.

I literally can't understand why you guys have continued to type in this thread. The OP picked a weird ass battle; since then it's been a one man show where Thanosi clearly has his mind made up, won't listen to logic, and has none of his own to back up his stance. Just stop.

I love it... Oh yes, my stance on Caesar winning the fight.... Got it LOL

I already pointed out that if Chimps are around 2x-3x stronger than humans, than we can use Khan as a base because he's supposed to be 5x humans. And Cap is clearly his superior.

Here we go again, based on what is he's Khan superior? I don't recall Khan having to lift bikes... or cars.. or any of the things Cap was called on to do. Much like comics, feats such as those are usually reserved for heroes, not bad guys, this is a common theme. Khan never had to do such things. Yet, you KNOW for a FACT Cap is his physical superior... odd. It's the same logic you could use to say Cap is stronger than Thanos. Thanos doesn't have a lifting feat to his name. Yet we know, by proxy, he should be VASTLY stronger than Cap. Having using your criteria, we'd have to say Cap is stronger. Does that make sense?

Second, there have been studies that say they are 8 times stronger... some 5.. Some 3.. Some even 2. So it can vary it seems on which study you believe. So no, if Chimps are really 5 times stronger than humans, and Caesar is the strongest of the strongest... What makes you believe Cap is easily stronger? Do tell

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Here we go again, based on what is he's Khan superior? I don't recall Khan having to lift bikes... or cars.. or any of the things Cap was called on to do. Much like comics, feats such as those are usually reserved for heroes, not bad guys, this is a common theme. Khan never had to do such things. Yet, you KNOW for a FACT Cap is his physical superior... odd. It's the same logic you could use to say Cap is stronger than Thanos. Thanos doesn't have a lifting feat to his name. Yet we know, by proxy, he should be VASTLY stronger than Cap. Having using your criteria, we'd have to say Cap is stronger. Does that make sense?

Second, there have been studies that say they are 8 times stronger... some 5.. Some 3.. Some even 2. So it can vary it seems on which study you believe. So no, if Chimps are really 5 times stronger than humans, and Caesar is the strongest of the strongest... What makes you believe Cap is easily stronger? Do tell

Are you ever going to support your claim that Caesar is "strongest of chimps" with actual proof or are you going to continue pulling things out from thin air?

Based on feats. Like Khan not launching people through the air with punches while Cap does. Or Khan getting a decent fight from someone 3x his inferior in Spock, while Cap does decently against guys who outmuscle him by a lot. Like Loki, Ultron Prime, Spidey, etc...

Why I think Cap is stronger: Steve used his legs to overpower and pin Bucky's bionic arm in that great film CA:TWS. That same arm which punched into concrete and later tore up Tony's armor. I don't think Caesar is physically powerful enough to overpower the bionic arm with any/all parts of his chimp body.

As for the fight, the only chance Caesar has in winning is taking a dump in his hand, flinging it into Cap's eyes and while Cap is busy wiping the shit out of his eyes, Caesar moves in and castrates Cap with a vicious bite. All things Chimps do. I personally don't see that happening before Cap beats his ape ass in.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
The OP picked a weird ass battle

That's my jam.

Originally posted by KingD19
Based on feats. Like Khan not launching people through the air with punches while Cap does. Or Khan getting a decent fight from someone 3x his inferior in Spock, while Cap does decently against guys who outmuscle him by a lot. Like Loki, Ultron Prime, Spidey, etc...

Ozy has launched people with punches, kicks and throws. Yet he has no lifting feats what so ever. How exactly do you know he's stronger?

Thanos hasn't launched anybody, neither has Odin, neither has a great number of people who we clearly know should be able to. That is my issue here. Going, oh, Cap has lifting feats... these guys don't, thus he's stronger doesn't always work

Originally posted by Robtard
Why I think Cap is stronger: Steve used his legs to overpower and pin Bucky's bionic arm in that great film CA:TWS. That same arm which punched into concrete and later tore up Tony's armor. I don't think Caesar is physically powerful enough to overpower the bionic arm with any/all parts of his chimp body.

As for the fight, the only chance Caesar has in winning is taking a dump in his hand, flinging it into Cap's eyes and while Cap is busy wiping the shit out of his eyes, Caesar moves in and castrates Cap with a vicious bite. All things Chimps do. I personally don't see that happening before Cap beats his ape ass in.

How much stronger is Cap than Caesar bud, to me, the difference would be negligible. What are you thoughts?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Thanos hasn't launched anybody, neither has Odin, neither has a great number of people who we clearly know should be able to. That is my issue here. Going, oh, Cap has lifting feats... these guys don't, thus he's stronger doesn't always work

Thanos's physical strength is questionable. We do not know anything about him yet other than Ronan and Loki are both lower than him. But we do have an idea of how strong Odin is, considering that even a lowly Asgardian farmer is strong enough to crumple a knife in his hand and push around SUVs. We also know that Odin fought against and decimated Frost Giants, which means he should have comparable strength.

Which is my point, it should be assumed that Thanos is EXPONENTIALLY stronger than Cap. He is so in comics. These characters are based on their comic counterparts. Sure there can be differences (a point I've argued before), but many times those have to do with plot more than powers. It should be unquestioned that he's vastly above Cap in strength, yet he has no lifting feats i.e. the point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How much stronger is Cap than Caesar bud, to me, the difference would be negligible. What are you thoughts?

I'd say several times stronger, Cap has bent steel (TFA), fought and matched a guy who dented his steel kite shield with a punch (TFA), single-arm tossed a man straight up which looked to be around 12-15 feet (TFA). Held up the motorcycle with a few women on it (TFA). That's just TFA.

Then we have Cap overpowering Bucky's bionic arm with a leglock(TWS), ripping apart a log like it was paper (AoU), if I watched all the films over, I'm certain I could go on listing feats that surpass Caesar's chimp-strength.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which is my point, it should be assumed that Thanos is EXPONENTIALLY stronger than Cap. He is so in comics. These characters are based on their comic counterparts. Sure there can be differences (a point I've argued before), but many times those have to do with plot more than powers. It should be unquestioned that he's vastly above Cap in strength, yet he has no lifting feats i.e. the point.

He should be, but until he is shown then we do not know. This is the movie versus forum, not the comicbook forum. We can powerscale and assume that he's stronger based on the fact that both Ronan and Loki defer to Thanos.

In any case, I don't really see how this helps your case. Cap has loads of strength feats that aren't strictly lifting feats.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'd say several times stronger, Cap has bent steel (TFA), fought and matched a guy who dented his steel kite shield with a punch (TFA), single-arm tossed a man straight up which looked to be around 12-15 feet (TFA). Held up the motorcycle with a few women on it (TFA). That's just TFA.

Then we have Cap overpowering Bucky's bionic arm with a leglock(TWS), ripping apart a log like it was paper (AoU), if I watched all the films over, I'm certain I could go on listing feats that surpass Caesar's chimp-strength.

Knocking around Spidey, who was strong enough to flat out stop Bucky's arm, a speeding car, and actually hurt Giant-Man.

Stopping a helicopter from taking off.

Crushing a military jeep with a motorcycle.

Throwing people 30 feet.

Fighting Ultron Prime somewhat evenly.

Fighting Loki.

Punching through a sub, damaging ironman's suit....

I have a hard time seeing Caesar duplicating what Cap does at the 8 second mark, based on the feats we actually have available for him.

4ngmj5FGcyg

On a random note, gotta love plot armour. That woman should have been killed from Thor tossing her upwards like that, after falling for like 12 seconds.

My problem with only referencing Cap punching through a sub window or overpowering Bucky's arm, which by proxy, has dented cement. Well, normal trained humans have blocked Bucky's arm. What happened there? Why didn't it overpower their block? Why were people able to block Cap's arm, I mean he punched through a sub window... I could go on and on with such examples. You can't just take the high ones, you have to factor in ALL the showings and then find a medium. People don't seem to do that with Cap or Bucky for that matter.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
My problem with only referencing Cap punching through a sub window or overpowering Bucky's arm, which by proxy, has dented cement. Well, normal trained humans have blocked Bucky's arm. What happened there? Why didn't it overpower their block? Why were people able to block Cap's arm, I mean he punched through a sub window... I could go on and on with such examples. You can't just take the high ones, you have to factor in ALL the showings and then find a medium. People don't seem to do that with Cap or Bucky for that matter.

Could you mention specifically who was able to block Cap's and Bucky's hits and how they were able to block them? Did they stop the fist or did they preemptively block the attack further up the arm?

Sure, IM out of his suit was able to parry one of Bucky's blow from his arm. BW was also able to do the same a parry a blow or two from his arm. I reference the Elevator scene in the WS, Rumalow was able to block and catch two punches from Cap. Even in Civil War, a couple of mook fodder soldiers working for Rumalow were able to block a blow from Cap. How is this possible? I mean he punched through a Sub window? See what I'm saying? Clearly when facing tangible living targets and combined with skill, and can clearly do better than inanimate objects.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sure, IM out of his suit was able to parry one of Bucky's blow from his arm. BW was also able to do the same a parry a blow or two from his arm. I reference the Elevator scene in the WS, Rumalow was able to block and catch two punches from Cap. Even in Civil War, a couple of mook fodder soldiers working for Rumalow were able to block a blow from Cap. How is this possible? I mean he punched through a Sub window? See what I'm saying? Clearly when facing tangible living targets and combined with skill, and can clearly do better than inanimate objects.

If you did martial arts like you say you did, you'd know that a parry is different from a block. Parry implies that you redirect the energy of the blowwhereas block means stopping the blow. Furthermore, the focus of energy in a punch is at the fist, on the knuckles. All the fights you mentioned (I'll double check later) where they actually block hits from Cap and WS, they never block and stop the fist itself, they block the arm, further up the arm. This allows someone to utilize leverage instead of just pure strength.

For example, I can block a heavyweight's roundhouse kick with one arm if I block him near the hip/thigh area. That doesn't mean that my one arm is stronger than his kick, I simply utilized leverage.

Thor catching IM's punch and stopping it in mid air, now there's a block where you can say, "Yes, Thor is stronger than IM's punch". If you can show any human doing the same to Cap and WS then you'll have a point.

Even if we ignore punching feats, I still don't think Caesar is strong enough to replicate some of Caps other strength feats such as:

Holding up a motorcycle with people
Making that super-jump to escape RS's base
Tossing the motorcycle
Cutting through high tensile strength steel cables with use of shield
Cutting into a Quinjet with use of shield
Holding the car from falling
Holding down a helicopter

What is Caesar's greatest strength feat? I recall in the first film, the orangutan (maybe gorilla?) picked up a manhole cover and threw it like a Frisbee. That's very impressive, but the orangutan is considerably larger than Caesar.

Originally posted by FrothByte
If you did martial arts like you say you did, you'd know that a parry is different from a block. Parry implies that you redirect the energy of the blowwhereas block means stopping the blow. Furthermore, the focus of energy in a punch is at the fist, on the knuckles. All the fights you mentioned (I'll double check later) where they actually block hits from Cap and WS, they never block and stop the fist itself, they block the arm, further up the arm. This allows someone to utilize leverage instead of just pure strength.

For example, I can block a heavyweight's roundhouse kick with one arm if I block him near the hip/thigh area. That doesn't mean that my one arm is stronger than his kick, I simply utilized leverage.

Thor catching IM's punch and stopping it in mid air, now there's a block where you can say, "Yes, Thor is stronger than IM's punch". If you can show any human doing the same to Cap and WS then you'll have a point.

Rumalow literally caught his arm 2 different times, he didn't just divert the energy. Furthermore, you are exactly proving my point. Punching a submarine means F-all when it comes to fighting a real life person who CAN divert the energy of a blow. That is my EXACT point, and why feats of WS pummeling concrete or Cap punching a sub window are useless when we see regular humans, skilled ones, are able to block and withstand blows from them.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Rumalow literally caught his arm 2 different times, he didn't just divert the energy. Furthermore, you are exactly proving my point. Punching a submarine means F-all when it comes to fighting a real life person who CAN divert the energy of a blow. That is my EXACT point, and why feats of WS pummeling concrete or Cap punching a sub window are useless when we see regular humans, skilled ones, are able to block and withstand blows from them.

Hitting an object that is rigid and unyielding is different from striking a human who can move away from your blow.

Also, there are martial artists that can punch strong enough to break thick slabs of brick, that doesn't mean that all their hits are just as strong especially if they're fighting off multiple attackers like WS and Cap usually do. Doesn't change the fact that Cap punched through a submarine windows and that needed far stronger power than any Caesar showed.

It actually means just that, those feats are useless to count when dealing with real life fights. Clearly, they can be caught or countered, and that is my exact point. I don't think you realize that you're actually agreeing with me man. I know you feel Cap wins, but my point on this sub topic, you agree with.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It actually means just that, those feats are useless to count when dealing with real life fights. Clearly, they can be caught or countered, and that is my exact point. I don't think you realize that you're actually agreeing with me man. I know you feel Cap wins, but my point on this sub topic, you agree with.


Your point is that Cap is not that much stronger than Ceasar, correct? And yet all you do is debate Cap's strength feats without providing any strength feats for Ceasar. If you really want to prove your point, go post some strength feats of Ceasar. Otherwise all you're doing is strawmanning.

No, I've talked about that subject already. Some people aren't required to have strength feats like Cap. For example Caesar, wasn't required to Lift a motorcycle or bend steel or any of his feats really, but that doesn't mean you can blanket say he's not as strong. Just like the characters I mentioned previously, Thanos, Odin etc etc they have zero lifting feats... So we could use your same argument and claim Cap is stronger than them... when we actually know that is a laughable stance. I have no issue if you feel Cap is stronger than Caesar. He could be, maybe he is. What I'm contesting is this notion that he's vastly stronger than Caesar, I don't buy that, not even close to buying that. That is how this whole conversation started.

What feats does Caesar have that prove Cap isn't vastly stronger?

Originally posted by Silent Master
What feats does Caesar have that prove Cap isn't vastly stronger?


None

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No, I've talked about that subject already. Some people aren't required to have strength feats like Cap. For example Caesar, wasn't required to Lift a motorcycle or bend steel or any of his feats really, but that doesn't mean you can blanket say he's not as strong. Just like the characters I mentioned previously, Thanos, Odin etc etc they have zero lifting feats... So we could use your same argument and claim Cap is stronger than them... when we actually know that is a laughable stance. I have no issue if you feel Cap is stronger than Caesar. He could be, maybe he is. What I'm contesting is this notion that he's vastly stronger than Caesar, I don't buy that, not even close to buying that. That is how this whole conversation started.

Dude, I already replied to this. We can infer how strong Thanos is by the deference that Loki and Ronan show him. We can infer how strong Odin is by how strong regular Asgardians are.

The ONLY gauge we have of how strong Caesar is is by comparing his strength level to the average chimp, and Cap has feats that make him quite a lot stronger than the average chimp.

Because realistically what you're asking us here is to believe that he's near Cap's strength based solely on your word.

What's odd about your whole post is that you seem to say implied power or strength can count; like in the case of Odin and thanos, but then turned around and act like it was clear with Caesar. What?? I don't think it could be any more clear. You keep on thinking it's only about intelligence and not strength, yet that is the very point you're missing. Because he's so much smarter than even the enhanced chimps, what would that mean? I would mean he would know how to fight faster, change tactics mid fight, how to train. There isn't a thing intelligence doesn't help to get you better. Npw, if he was some skinny short chimp who just smart, sure that won't mean much. That isn't the case here, he seems bigger than most not smaller. So clearly physicality isn't an issue. He ran the damn shit, no other chimp, no other larger species of ape even hinted and trying to take control except a crazy one his size. How much more clear can it be?

Now, the reason why I'm unconvinced Cap is THAT much stronge9r is simple, evidence varies on how much stronger they are. Some say 2x, other 4x, I've even seen as high as 7/8. That is a huge gap between the extreme ends when it comes to how it would translate in real life. If it's on the higher end, there is no way Cap is stronger, in fact, he could be weaker. If it's on the lower end, than sure Cap is likely a stronger, but again, it wouldn't be by much. Especially if we use the actually movie and what it says. He's the peak of what a human can be. It doesn't say 2x or 3x or 5x which could be construed as stronger than merely peak human. That is the issue. Cap's feats if taken literally obviously should put him above peak human (though I'd argue, we have no clue what a peak human could do strength wise, we haven't seen it.) So he seems to be clearly above "peak" human as some see it, but how much?

Originally posted by Silent Master
What feats does Caesar have that prove Cap isn't vastly stronger?

Originally posted by Robtard
Even if we ignore punching feats, I still don't think Caesar is strong enough to replicate some of Caps other strength feats such as:

Holding up a motorcycle with people
Making that super-jump to escape RS's base
Tossing the motorcycle
Cutting through high tensile strength steel cables with use of shield
Cutting into a Quinjet with use of shield
Holding the car from falling
Holding down a helicopter

What is Caesar's greatest strength feat? I recall in the first film, the orangutan (maybe gorilla?) picked up a manhole cover and threw it like a Frisbee. That's very impressive, but the orangutan is considerably larger than Caesar.

That's just it, as you know, Caesar doesn't have lifting feats nor was he required to do any. Seems pretty clear we agree on that. So we're left with, like my post to Froth illustrates, how much stronger do you believe chimps are to humans? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Then I'd like to see how much stronger is Cap to a human.

Now all the feats you referenced? Yes I believe he could do most of those if Caesar's strength level is on the higher end of the studies. Then clearly yes. he could and that seems pretty easy to see. IF he's on the lower side, then maybe not. Even then, he'd be able to do some of them even being only 2 or 3 times stronger.

Originally posted by Silent Master
What feats does Caesar have that prove Cap isn't vastly stronger?

What is the strongest strength feat for any chimp. If we can imply ceasar is the bestest chimp, then what can a chimp do?

Originally posted by FrothByte
If you did martial arts like you say you did, you'd know that a parry is different from a block. Parry implies that you redirect the energy of the blowwhereas block means stopping the blow. Furthermore, the focus of energy in a punch is at the fist, on the knuckles. All the fights you mentioned (I'll double check later) where they actually block hits from Cap and WS, they never block and stop the fist itself, they block the arm, further up the arm. This allows someone to utilize leverage instead of just pure strength. Actually, looking at it again, the "grab" when Cap's one arm is in the cuff also looks like a block from Cap, as Rumlow comes in with a wide baton swing.

For example, I can block a heavyweight's roundhouse kick with one arm if I block him near the hip/thigh area. That doesn't mean that my one arm is stronger than his kick, I simply utilized leverage.

Thor catching IM's punch and stopping it in mid air, now there's a block where you can say, "Yes, Thor is stronger than IM's punch". If you can show any human doing the same to Cap and WS then you'll have a point.

Also, Rumlow did not catch any of his punches. It's actually the opposite. Cap blocks two of Rumlow's baton strikes (you can clearly see Cap's arm on the inside, holding Brock's left arm out). All that Rumlow does is dodge one of Cap's hits. Unless we want to include Rumlow briefly grabbing Cap's one arm, while he was at an extremely awkward position, with his other arm pinned against the elevator wall, which would severely hamper how much strength he could exert. Actually, looking at that grab again, it also looks like Steve is blocking, considering Rumlow is the one coming in with a wide baton swing.

If Caesar has the same stats as a regular chimp, Cap wins in all categories.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Also, Rumlow did not catch any of his punches. It's actually the opposite. Cap blocks two of Rumlow's baton strikes (you can clearly see Cap's arm on the inside, holding Brock's left arm out). All that Rumlow does is dodge one of Cap's hits. Unless we want to include Rumlow briefly grabbing Cap's one arm, while he was at an extremely awkward position, with his other arm pinned against the elevator wall, which would severely hamper how much strength he could exert. Actually, looking at that grab again, it also looks like Steve is blocking, considering Rumlow is the one coming in with a wide baton swing.

I understand what you're seeing, but I don't think it helps the case at all. In the first encounter, Rumlow is the one who kicks Cap arm into said position with the cuff. Cap was unable to stop it, block it, or react and dodge. Then yes, he was hampered in said position, however he was able to fight off multiple people in said position, and even one shot KO some. However when they exchange again, again, Cap goes out on the losing end of a exchange. Further illustrating what trained humans can do against Cap and bucky types at times mind you. Then Cap knocks him off, engages a few more people, kicks their ass and breaks his arm free. Then they exchange again, and again, Cap is on the losing end of multiple exchanges. The first exchange I see what you're saying. But you can also clearly see Rumlow has his fingers wrapped around his arm, thus the grab. I admit it's kind ambiguous who is throwing what there, It looks like Cap to me, but I can see it the other. The second block for whoever, again is hard to tell. But regardless, Cap was UNABLE to react to the second shot on 3 separate occasions and was hit. This is a normal, just well trained human. All is illustrates the same thing, and how this discussion started. People keep citing stuff like Submarine punch, and concrete punch from Bucky, as if to illustrate this is how hard they punch and how much damage they can do to a foe. When in actuality what we see is, when they are fighting trained people, their shots can be dodged, countered, strikes landed, grabs landed etc etc.


As for this fight, I don't think people realize how strong Chimps can be, and nor how vicious. They have sharp claws and teeth, ones they use with viscous effect. I never really said who would win, but I can tell you this, if Caesar is at the top end of studies that show them as over 4x the strength of a human. Good luck Cap. That's just how I see it.

IOW, Cap wins. he is also stronger.

I believe that is what we like to refere as "lowballing". We see cap able to handle ironman, spiderman, bucky, and loki. We also see bucky practically walk through black widow and 13. But because they show cap get hit a few times in a fight he won, we assume a monkey could beat him?

Let's also remember that Cap tanked Thor's hammer with his shield. Even with the shield being able to withstand the hit, it clearly didn't disperse all of the forced as evidenced by the shock wave that went out. His body had to absorb the impact, and he did so without issue. There's no way Ceasar delivers anything on par with that.

There is nothing to remotely suggest that the chimp has a chance, end of story.

Did you just cite, Cap SHIELD getting hit from Hit, and trying to use that as something even the least bit impressive? That's comical. The shield even being used at all, negates it really being meaningful at all. While we're at it, shall I reference Cap getting KO'd by a rocket grenade in WS, mind you, he had his shield up for it and it still KO'd him. Nice example though bud lol

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
I believe that is what we like to refere as "lowballing". We see cap able to handle ironman, spiderman, bucky, and loki. We also see bucky practically walk through black widow and 13. But because they show cap get hit a few times in a fight he won, we assume a monkey could beat him?

Only he didn't walk through them did he. 13 was able to counter and land strikes of her own. BW was able to lock him up and elbow him like 3 times. In their first encounter, she fooled WS and got the jump on him, again, and was able to temp neutralize his arm and also disarm him. Stop acting like these things didn't happen. As evidenced, people with skill can and have countered them, as well as land blows on them. It's that simple, saying otherwise is being blatantly disingenuous

In the end KT, all you're really doing is trying to poke holes in Cap's numerous strength feats while providing none for Caesar. Without feats, the most you can attribute to Caesar is that he's as strong as an average fit male chimp.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Did you just cite, Cap SHIELD getting hit from Hit, and trying to use that as something even the least bit impressive? That's comical. The shield even being used at all, negates it really being meaningful at all. While we're at it, shall I reference Cap getting KO'd by a rocket grenade in WS, mind you, he had his shield up for it and it still KO'd him. Nice example though bud lol

So you think the chimp could have taken that simply by having the shield? You think the chimp could have taken that RPG blast better than Cap, who survived decades frozen in ice?

Anyway, I'm done. You clearly have your own view on things that refuses to take reason into account.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I understand what you're seeing, but I don't think it helps the case at all. In the first encounter, Rumlow is the one who kicks Cap arm into said position with the cuff. Cap was unable to stop it, block it, or react and dodge. Then yes, he was hampered in said position, however he was able to fight off multiple people in said position, and even one shot KO some. However when they exchange again, again, Cap goes out on the losing end of a exchange. Further illustrating what trained humans can do against Cap and bucky types at times mind you. Then Cap knocks him off, engages a few more people, kicks their ass and breaks his arm free. Then they exchange again, and again, Cap is on the losing end of multiple exchanges. The first exchange I see what you're saying. But you can also clearly see Rumlow has his fingers wrapped around his arm, thus the grab. I admit it's kind ambiguous who is throwing what there, It looks like Cap to me, but I can see it the other. The second block for whoever, again is hard to tell. But regardless, Cap was UNABLE to react to the second shot on 3 separate occasions and was hit. This is a normal, just well trained human. All is illustrates the same thing, and how this discussion started. People keep citing stuff like Submarine punch, and concrete punch from Bucky, as if to illustrate this is how hard they punch and how much damage they can do to a foe. When in actuality what we see is, when they are fighting trained people, their shots can be dodged, countered, strikes landed, grabs landed etc etc.


To me, personally, it looked fairly clear. Cap's right arm bent at the elbow, blocking from wide strikes coming in. His arm was on the inside, and bent, which is not a striking position, as opposed to a classic block position (it's textbook in a lot of styles, like multiple forms of Karate). Plus, if Cap was striking in such a way that Rumlow was having to block from an outside angle, where was Cap aiming those strikes? Because neither would have hit anything.

Rumlow grabbing Cap's wrist just means he tried to grab Cap's wrist. He does it when Cap's other arm is pinned as well, but looking more clearly we can see that Rumlow threw the strike in that instance as well. And you said it yourself. Cap wrecked all the other guys there quite easily. So if Cap can stomp 9 guys but has problem with 1, it just means that guy in particular has to be exceptional. Because Rumlow isn't just any highly trained guy. People like Rumlow, Hawkeye, Widow etc. are among the absolutely very best non-enhanced human combatants on the MCU Earth. And this is by comicbook movieverse standards, which is above real life. So people like them occasionally landing some relatively ineffectual hits on the Super Soldiers isn't that far-fetched to me.

So Rumlow being skilled enough to tag Steve multiple times just means that Caesar could probably tag him, having chimp speed and agility. But that doesn't say much for strength. Because, remember, comicbook and real life does not really stack up well. Also, when people throw out the times 3x, 4x, 6x numbers etc. for chimps, they are generally talking about the average adult real life male. Not elite fictional humans. And we also don't know how far comic movie human "full" potential (like Cap supposedly has) deviates from the average real adult male (based on things like the car feat I linked, he is also several times stronger than the average adult RL male, but the difference is he has several feats showing this). So trying to draw comparisons there is likely to just get stuck.

Edit: Also, as to striking and not shattering bones etc. Marvel takes serious liberties with how the laws of physics work, in order to keep the films PG (another example, the woman Thor tosses in that clip). Fact is the force required to send people sailing through the air for several feat, like Super Soldiers have done on multiple occasions, is also more than enough force to break human bone, or worse. Like we see WS's arm literally shatter concrete. A human body is not that tough. If WS hit them in real life, they'd turn to goo. Similar to Cap. If he shield tosses someone at full force, he should actually slice them up. And we see it showcased like when he tosses his shield into Utron Prime's chest, and it lodges in several inches. If it did that to Ultron, it should destroy a human ribcage. We've also seen Cap swing a person into a concrete pillar hard enough to crack it. But people miraculously stay intact, and never shatter bones etc. That's due to PIS for the sake of age restrictions. Compare that to a show like Daredevil. It's R-rated, so there are numerous times where we see/hear Matt breaking people's bones in multiple fights. Does that mean he hits harder than Cap? Not by a long shot. But they have more freedom to show violent effects.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To me, personally, it looked fairly clear. Cap's right arm bent at the elbow, blocking from wide strikes coming in. His arm was on the inside, and bent, which is not a striking position, as opposed to a classic block position (it's textbook in a lot of styles, like multiple forms of Karate). Plus, if Cap was striking in such a way that Rumlow was having to block from an outside angle, where was Cap aiming those strikes? Because neither would have hit anything.

Rumlow grabbing Cap's wrist just means he tried to grab Cap's wrist. He does it when Cap's other arm is pinned as well, but looking more clearly we can see that Rumlow threw the strike in that instance as well. And you said it yourself. Cap wrecked all the other guys there quite easily. So if Cap can stomp 9 guys but has problem with 1, it just means that guy in particular has to be exceptional. Because Rumlow isn't just any highly trained guy. People like Rumlow, Hawkeye, Widow etc. are among the absolutely very best non-enhanced human combatants on the MCU Earth. And this is by comicbook movieverse standards, which is above real life. So people like them occasionally landing some relatively ineffectual hits on the Super Soldiers isn't that far-fetched to me.

So Rumlow being skilled enough to tag Steve multiple times just means that Caesar could probably tag him, having chimp speed and agility. But that doesn't say much for strength. Because, remember, comicbook and real life does not really stack up well. Also, when people throw out the times 3x, 4x, 6x numbers etc. for chimps, they are generally talking about the average adult real life male. Not elite fictional humans. And we also don't know how far comic movie human "full" potential (like Cap supposedly has) deviates from the average real adult male (based on things like the car feat I linked, he is also several times stronger than the average adult RL male, but the difference is he has several feats showing this). So trying to draw comparisons there is likely to just get stuck.

Edit: Also, as to striking and not shattering bones etc. Marvel takes serious liberties with how the laws of physics work, in order to keep the films PG (another example, the woman Thor tosses in that clip). Fact is the force required to send people sailing through the air for several feat, like Super Soldiers have done on multiple occasions, is also more than enough force to break human bone, or worse. Like we see WS's arm literally shatter concrete. A human body is not that tough. If WS hit them in real life, they'd turn to goo. Similar to Cap. If he shield tosses someone at full force, he should actually slice them up. And we see it showcased like when he tosses his shield into Utron Prime's chest, and it lodges in several inches. If it did that to Ultron, it should destroy a human ribcage. We've also seen Cap swing a person into a concrete pillar hard enough to crack it. But people miraculously stay intact, and never shatter bones etc. That's due to PIS for the sake of age restrictions. Compare that to a show like Daredevil. It's R-rated, so there are numerous times where we see/hear Matt breaking people's bones in multiple fights. Does that mean he hits harder than Cap? Not by a long shot. But they have more freedom to show violent effects.

I understand what you're saying bout the sequences and get it, but it still doesn't change the overall point, which you get. Cap can be countered and hit, and he can lose exchanges. I agree Cap is formidable, and he could win as well, not saying otherwise. However, I think people are selling Caesar a little short here considering his stats, claws and teeth.

Cap wins.