Anakin vs Vader (sabers only)

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Rebel95
Who wins and WHY

DarthAnt66
Skywalker demolishes. Faster. Stronger. More powerful.

Rebel95
Faster? Maybe.. More agile? yeah

Vader's definitely stronger though

Syndicate
Vader.

chingchangwalla
Hmm I'm under the impression that Vader is. Skywalker should be but I'm pretty sure Vader was to be better in numerous sources ?

DarthAnt66
The strength Anakin displayed against Dooku is beyond Vader.

Syndicate
Nope.

chingchangwalla
Yeah I think the strength is better for Anakin but Vader is way smarter and more versatile, more experienced. He learnt from all his dumb asf mistakes

Syndicate
Why do you think Anakin has superior strength ching?

chingchangwalla
Well more overall physical prowess. Vader is stronger unarmed but his relative lack of movement means he can't jump up and strike down as hard as Anakin can

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Timmy Timmy Timmy turner

He be wishin for a burner

To kill everybody walkin

Syndicate
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Well more overall physical prowess. Vader is stronger unarmed but his relative lack of movement means he can't jump up and strike down as hard as Anakin can

Vader has demonstrated plenty of mobility given his restrictions. Dooku himself noted in his fight with Anakin that Djem So's weakness was its lack of mobility and Vader compensated for this by blending multiple forms in his fighting style as is described in TFU and DL. Anakin on the other hand only employed Djem So as his main offensive fighting style. It's not as if we ever see Anakin in the shows or movies leaping into the air and coming down on his foes to generate a greater amount of kinetic force. So yes while I agree that Anakin has greater mobility/agility I don't see how this will help his physical blows have more kinetic force behind them.

AncientPower
Yeh, yeh, Vader gets far more powerful and all that jazz, but he was never, ever the Anakin we saw in Revenge of the Sith.

DarthAnt66
thumb up Vader's a shadow of what Anakin once was.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Pokemon...

Gooooooooo

chingchangwalla
Hmm interesting. I'm surprised to see this many Anakin supporters

The Merchant
Vader cause in ANH he implies hes stronger than when he was In the Prequels.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by AncientPower
Yeh, yeh, Vader gets far more powerful and all that jazz, but he was never, ever the Anakin we saw in Revenge of the Sith.

Nice avatar. Welcome to the team. smile

DarthAnt66
thumb up All aboard the Skywalker train.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You still care, ant? Jeez. smile

SunRazer
Somebody has to take the place of Bane.

Darth Thor
Vader would win the all out. Not sure about Sabers only though.

But Vader being ranked above Sidious is a hell of an accolade smile

SunRazer
Mandalorian Wars Revan >> Nihilus in Force, Dooku = Yoda in Force, Bastila = Obi-Wan/Dooku and Malak's cybernetics >>>>> Nadd and Kun in power are each a hell of an accolade too.

McP
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker demolishes. Faster. Stronger. More powerful.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Vader would win the all out. Not sure about Sabers only though.

But Vader being ranked above Sidious is a hell of an accolade smile Ridiculous. Sidious is more impressive than Vader will ever be based on facts not statements.

Rebel95
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
thumb up Vader's a shadow of what Anakin once was.
Nope, only when he was first in the suit.

There are several quotes that say Vader is more powerful than he had ever been before as Anakin. In fact, I recall seeing one that says his light saber skills improved too. I'll find them when I get home from work and have my laptop.

ares834
Vader smokes him. Vader is canonically a greater duelist than Sidious, Anakin has no chance.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rebel95
There are several quotes that say Vader is more powerful than he had ever been before as Anakin.
'Several quotes" being from the perspective of Vader or those Scholastic children books. erm
Originally posted by Rebel95
Nope, only when he was first in the suit.

The shadow refers to ANH, which was 19 years after he got his suit. laughing out loud

ares834
He is a shadow of his old potential, yes.

Still better as Vader though. smile

DarthAnt66
Shadow of his former self, I believe. wink

Skywalker, who's on level with GM Luke and ROTS Yoda as a combatant, honestly steamrolls Vader out of existence. thumb up

ares834
Yes. Like I said, he doesn't have the potential he once had.

Shame he's nowhere near that level.

Rebel95
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Shadow of his former self, I believe. wink

Skywalker, who's on level with GM Luke and ROTS Yoda as a combatant, honestly steamrolls Vader out of existence. thumb up
Uhh since when has he been on their level as a combatant? Since you got ur new avi and sig and started wanking him?

And the sources are reliable, I'll be home from work soon so I can find them.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rebel95
Uhh since when has he been on their level as a combatant? Since you got ur new avi and sig and started wanking him?

And the sources are reliable, I'll be home from work soon so I can find them.
Since 2005.

laughing out loud Good luck.

Beniboybling
You were born then? Lmao.

Deronn_solo
Anakin, he isn't stomping tho - not even close, kek.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You were born then? Lmao.
Retarded post by a retarded member.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by DarthAnt66


The shadow refers to ANH, which was 19 years after he got his suit. laughing out loud


ANH Vader? You mean the Vader who said to Obi-Wan:

"The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master.."


Sounds more like he felt his ROTS self was a shadow of his current self erm

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Retarded post by a retarded member. Cute. smileOriginally posted by Darth Thor
ANH Vader? You mean the Vader who said to Obi-Wan:

"The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master.."


Sounds more like he felt his ROTS self was a shadow of his current self erm thumb up

NewGuy01
And nobody thinks ANH Kenobi would have a chance in hell in a duel against his younger self, oddly enough.

Beniboybling
That's not what he meant when he said he'd grown lol.

NTJack0
Vader wins.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And nobody thinks ANH Kenobi would have a chance in hell in a duel against his younger self, oddly enough.
thumb up laughing out loud

Beniboybling
Must it be spelt out for you? He's referring to his ability to manifest as a Force ghost, not his combative strength. erm

Syndicate
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And nobody thinks ANH Kenobi would have a chance in hell in a duel against his younger self, oddly enough.

Except Wolf.

Rebel95
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cute. smilethumb up
smile Ant's proven nothing but his immaturity

Syndicate
Give him a break, he's only in Middle School. smile

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Syndicate
Except Wolf.

Which one?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Syndicate
Give him a break, he's only in Middle School. smile
Right. roll eyes (sarcastic)

And the member making emotional rant threads about how his friends are mean to him is totally more mature.

laughing

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Must it be spelt out for you? He's referring to his ability to manifest as a Force ghost, not his combative strength. erm
And Kenobi is clearly referring to Darth Vader's command of the Force, and not the fact Skywalker was an emotional wreck previously but now in control of his power. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Actually, the novel back in 1977, wasn't it? Using it against an argument for a character that really only becomes developed 28 years later is pretty laughable - even for you.

Syndicate
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Which one?

Old Ben vs Obi Wan ( RotS ).

Syndicate
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Right. roll eyes (sarcastic)

And the member making emotional rant threads about how his friends are mean to him is totally more mature.

laughing

If somebody's mean to me why would I consider them a friend? :3

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Syndicate
Old Ben vs Obi Wan ( RotS ).

...I meant which Wolf. There's two.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And Kenobi is clearly referring to Darth Vader's command of the Force, and not the fact Skywalker was an emotional wreck previously but now in control of his power. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Actually, the novel back in 1977, wasn't it? Using it against an argument for a character that really only becomes developed 28 years later is pretty laughable - even for you. Because it was Kenobi who taught him to be Darth Vader? No lol, he's referring to Anakin as a Jedi.

And I didn't realise these sources had an expiry date, I guess the Original Trilogy is no longer relevant either then? Noted.

DarthAnt66
I was being sarcastic.

A quote from 1977 isn't relevant in regards to a character fleshed out in 2005.

Syndicate
Originally posted by NewGuy01
...I meant which Wolf. There's two.

The stupid one. smile

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I was being sarcastic.laughing out loudRepeating yourself doesn't make what you're saying any less retarded. SW continuity doesn't work by writing over what's come before, but by aligning with and expanding on it. And the novelisations have been described by Lucasfilm as pretty centric in that regardmessedo no, you're basically bullshitting. The OT is actually relevant to Vader's story arc lmao.

quanchi112
Originally posted by ares834
Vader smokes him. Vader is canonically a greater duelist than Sidious, Anakin has no chance. So based on this line of thinking Luke beats Sidious even harder in a duel than he beat Vader. laughing out loud

quanchi112
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And nobody thinks ANH Kenobi would have a chance in hell in a duel against his younger self, oddly enough. thumb up

Darth Thor
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And nobody thinks ANH Kenobi would have a chance in hell in a duel against his younger self, oddly enough.


That actually is odd given ANH Kenobi is barely a couple of years older than ROTS Mace, and decades younger than AOTC/TCW/ROTS Dooku.


The Only logical reason for that to be the case the would be that Old Ben was just out of practice.

cs_zoltan
He was also rotting his ass on one of the harshest planets in the galaxy in contrast to Mace and Dooku masturbating in the comfy Jedi Temple.

Rebel95

Rebel95
Here's the rest of the quote from A New Hope (it accidentally cut off):

"This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words."

DarthAnt66
1. Scholastic children's book.

2. Already referenced and laughed at.

3. Vader's perspective.

4. Vader's perspective.

Yeah. Find one that actually matters. thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
'Several quotes" being from the perspective of Vader or those Scholastic children books. erm
Old Ant strikes again. thumb up

quanchi112
Kenobi was far removed from his prime. What's so hard to grasp.

Darth Thor
Let's not forget Pablo Hidalgo stating Rebels Vader is Prime Vader.

chingchangwalla
^ That's why if Maul vs Vader happens, Maul's gonna get destroyed.

Rebel95
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
1. Scholastic children's book.

2. Already referenced and laughed at.

3. Vader's perspective.

4. Vader's perspective.

Yeah. Find one that actually matters. thumb up
Lol the fact that it's coming from Vader himself should be proof. Who would know his power better than himself? Nice try though. laughing out loud

Now, instead of finding lame excuses for the quotes I've provided, try and find some that state Anakin is superior. I'll wait...

quanchi112
You Vader fanboys better hope so with an in prime Vader up against an out of prime Maul. When it doesn't go down like that I'll be there.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rebel95
Lol the fact that it's coming from Vader himself should be proof. Who would know his power better than himself? Nice try though. laughing out loud

Now, instead of finding lame excuses for the quotes I've provided, try and find some that state Anakin is superior. I'll wait... So if steph curry thinks to himself it becomes a fact ? Seriously. Vader's opinion is just an opinion. Do you know what subjective even means ?

chingchangwalla
He should know better than anyone, he used to be Anakin...

Rebel95
If he were comparing himself to someone else, yeah, you're right. But when he's comparing his past self to his current self, that's totally different. @quanchi112

Rebel95
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
He should know better than anyone, he used to be Anakin...
thumb up
People acting like they're two completely different people lol

DarthAnt66
Vader viewed his old self as weak in the first place - just like all Sith do. Skywalker was controlled by his emotions while Vader has them in check.

It's similar to how Dooku reflected his old self as weak because" the light side was inferior to the dark side" according to Palpatine's corruptive teachings.

The ROTS novel's ending and the numerous quotes saying Vader is a shadow of his former self is sufficient evidence, in my eyes.

Or, simply applying logic you find Skywalker wielding the raw power of the Father, yet Vader's raw power is probably inferior to Revan's. Do the math.

Rebel95
Originally posted by quanchi112
You Vader fanboys better hope so with an in prime Vader up against an out of prime Maul. When it doesn't go down like that I'll be there.
Lol making up an excuse already for when Maul loses laughing out loud
And where's the proof that Maul is out of his prime?

relentless1
Anakin would destroy Vader

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Rebel95
thumb up
People acting like they're two completely different people lol

Haha well he says he's killed Anakin several times and refers to Anakin as weak, must love speaking in third person big grin

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rebel95
Lol making up an excuse already for when Maul loses laughing out loud



laughing out loud


Originally posted by Rebel95

And where's the proof that Maul is out of his prime?


There is no proof. He's grasping at straws.

Rebels Maul is around ROTS Mace's age and still decades younger than Dooku was. So no reason at all he should be past his prime.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rebel95
Lol making up an excuse already for when Maul loses laughing out loud
And where's the proof that Maul is out of his prime? Maul can't kill Vader you moron because he doesn't die until Rotj. Context clearly matters. Just because Windu dies after he beats Sidious doesn't mean he didn't beat Sidious without Anakin's interference. Was Kenobi in his prime in ANH ? Why would Maul be in his prime out of practice and decades older ? Is Michael Jordan in his prime now ? Do you seriously have a clue ?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
laughing out loud





There is no proof. He's grasping at straws.

Rebels Maul is around ROTS Mace's age and still decades younger than Dooku was. So no reason at all he should be past his prime. Was Kenobi in his prime in ANH ? What evidence do you have Maul in his prime in Rebels ? You are grasping at straws. Vader may be in his prime but that doesn't mean everyone else is, troll.

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Or, simply applying logic you find Skywalker wielding the raw power of the Father, yet Vader's raw power is probably inferior to Revan's. Do the math.

TPM Anakin > Revan?

quanchi112
Concessions accepted.

Rebel95
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vader viewed his old self as weak in the first place - just like all Sith do. Skywalker was controlled by his emotions while Vader has them in check.

It's similar to how Dooku reflected his old self as weak because" the light side was inferior to the dark side" according to Palpatine's corruptive teachings.

The ROTS novel's ending and the numerous quotes saying Vader is a shadow of his former self is sufficient evidence, in my eyes.

Or, simply applying logic you find Skywalker wielding the raw power of the Father, yet Vader's raw power is probably inferior to Revan's. Do the math.
Weak emotionally yeah.

Ok.

Oh, from when Vader was first put in his suit? lol

Raw power doesn't equate to actual power.

The quotes I provided should be sufficient proof that Vader>Anakin, which is a widely accepted truth among most star wars fans. Keep making up excuses though thumb up

Rebel95
Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul can't kill Vader you moron because he doesn't die until Rotj. Context clearly matters. Just because Windu dies after he beats Sidious doesn't mean he didn't beat Sidious without Anakin's interference. Was Kenobi in his prime in ANH ? Why would Maul be in his prime out of practice and decades older ? Is Michael Jordan in his prime now ? Do you seriously have a clue ?
Uhh yeah, I know that... Maul will still lose in a fair fight. Michael Jordan isn't a force user. Force users can be in their primes at a much older age, in case you haven't noticed lol

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rebel95
Uhh yeah, I know that... Maul will still lose in a fair fight. Michael Jordan isn't a force user. Force users can be in their primes at a much older age, in case you haven't noticed lol I disagree. We will see but Vader isn't in his prime that doesn't mean Maul is. Was Yoda in his prime in ESB ? laughing out loud

If you have proof Maul is in his prime by a Star Wars creator feel free to share.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rebel95
Raw power doesn't equate to actual power.

For Skywalker, in many ways, it does. Much of his skills and power is rooted in his Chosen One potential. The novelization made this clear.

The only thing holding back said power is his own emotions, and even then it can leak through, as seen mid-way through the Dooku fight.


I honestly doubt that.

Also, I find that funny when you've attacked Revan many times, despite the fact he's widely accepted among Star Wars fans as being more powerful than your wildest dreams.

rolling on floor laughing

Rebel95
Originally posted by quanchi112
I disagree. We will see but Vader isn't in his prime that doesn't mean Maul is. Was Yoda in his prime in ESB ? laughing out loud

If you have proof Maul is in his prime by a Star Wars creator feel free to share.
Yeah, we'll see. I'm looking forward to it. You are right though, Maul could be out of his prime. At this point we have no way of knowing.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rebel95
Yeah, we'll see. I'm looking forward to it. You are right though, Maul could be out of his prime. At this point we have no way of knowing. Maul isn't in his prime so with Vader being confirmed as in his prime he'd better win and easily in a fair fight.

Rebel95
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, I find that funny when you've attacked Revan many times, despite the fact he's widely accepted among Star Wars fans as being more powerful than your wildest dreams.

rolling on floor laughing
When have I attacked Revan?

Rebel95
Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul isn't in his prime so with Vader being confirmed as in his prime he'd better win and easily in a fair fight.
Well, like I said, we don't know that.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rebel95
Well, like I said, we don't know that. What does common sense tell you ?

DarthAnt66
I was under the impression that was where the origin of our beef began.

I think I'm also blurring you together with NTJack. mmm

Rebel95
Revan's probably among my top 10 favorite characters happy I doubt I've attacked him unless it was in a thread where I was arguing for the other character.

Rebel95
Originally posted by quanchi112
What does common sense tell you ?
Well, aside from using the cane (which I believe was a bluff), he doesn't seem to have lost any of his power. And his being out of practice doesn't mean anything considering the fact that Sheev was too, after ROTS. Maul could have been studying and growing his power in other ways just like Sidious was.

DarthAnt66
I like the parallel between ROTS Kenobi and SoD Maul - and then ANH Kenobi and Rebels Maul.

Rebel95
Me too, actually.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rebel95
Well, aside from using the cane (which I believe was a bluff), he doesn't seem to have lost any of his power. And his being out of practice doesn't mean anything considering the fact that Sheev was too, after ROTS. Maul could have been studying and growing his power in other ways just like Sidious was. yBeing out of practice means you aren't at your best. Wtf reality do you live in ? So you ignore what you see and pretend he's at his best because you want to believe that. Bias. Sidious wasn't at his best in Rotj we clearly see his reaction time is awful to let a one handed cyborg toss him to his death with precog.

Rebel95
Rotj Sidious>Rots Sidious. I think that's pretty widely accepted, at least on this forum. Calm down, my god, I'm not pretending anything I'm just saying that's what could be.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rebel95
Rotj Sidious>Rots Sidious. I think that's pretty widely accepted, at least on this forum. Calm down, my god, I'm not pretending anything I'm just saying that's what could be. Based off what ? Being tossed to his doom and not doing any significant harm to Luke. Yeah, that makes sense. Being out of practice equals prime.

DarthAnt66
Rebel, don't forget Quan is a strictly Canon debater.

While from a Legends perspective ROTJ > ROTS clearly makes sense, in Canon it's certainly more vague.

EmperorSidious2
Vader IMO

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Rebel, don't forget Quan is a strictly Canon debater.

While from a Legends perspective ROTJ > ROTS clearly makes sense, in Canon it's certainly more vague.

Except, it's not. In fact, if anything, it's the other way around. There is a far greater case in Legends for Anakin > Vader then their is in canon. Disney has a hard on for Vader and the shit he has pulled of in both the comics and Lords of the Sith are way beyond anything Anakin has done. It's not even close.

Rebel95
He's talking about Sidious

cs_zoltan
He was talking about Sidious.

Edit: **** you Rebel.

DarthAnt66
I was referring to ROTJ and ROTS Palpatine.

Anakin is better in both Canon and Legends by miles.

Rebel95
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He was talking about Sidious.

Edit: **** you Rebel.
smile

Kurk
Skywalker wins sabers. More agile and faster yadayada

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin is better in both Canon and Legends by miles.

Unfortunately not, as anyone with the canon material would know.

As mentioned before, it's been stated that Vader's prime is when he is in his mech suit. And his feats are simply on a different level. A case could be made that Anakin is the better duelist (as per this thread) but as a combatant as a whole, certainly not.

Rebel95
Originally posted by ares834
A case could be made that Anakin is the better duelist (as per this thread) but as a combatant as a whole, certainly not.
thumb up

Kurk
Originally posted by Rebel95
thumb up

quanchi112
Originally posted by ares834
Unfortunately not, as anyone with the canon material would know.

As mentioned before, it's been stated that Vader's prime is when he is in his mech suit. And his feats are simply on a different level. A case could be made that Anakin is the better duelist (as per this thread) but as a combatant as a whole, certainly not. We get it Vader's experience and force knowledge/power make up for the lack of maneuverability he lost when doomed to the suit as a total combatant. He still has a huge maneuverability issue Pre suit Vader didn't have.

AncientPower
Vader was more technically masterful, physically he was stronger and more durable, his mastery and knowledge of the Force was also much greater. None of which makes up for the fact that Anakin was an absolutely unstoppable Force of nature by Revenge of the Sith. The way he channelled his raw power and the mindset he entered to 'will' his opponents into defeat placed him up there with Yoda and Sidious. Operation Knightfall Vader was even deadlier, he slaughtered Cin Drallig and cut a swathe through Jedi with utter ease.

It was as of Mustafar that Vader lost it, his mindset was continuously one of doubt about everything he had done, his hatred for Obi-Wan and guilt over Padme clouded his concentration. Physically he'd been starving for days, hadn't taken any liquids or sleep over that same amount of time.

Obi-Wan Kenobi took advantage of his intimate knowledge of Vader's fighting style and state of mind, goading him into ever greater heights of rage but also vulnerability. The end of the fight was inevitable, Obi-Wan wasn't better, he was just smarter.

DarthAnt66
Good post. thumb up I'm not convinced Vader is physically stronger though. What Skywalker did to Dooku was rather unprecedented.

AncientPower
Your signature is the best thing I've ever seen in 12 years of Star Wars debating. thumb up

ares834
WTF? So Anakin's "knowledge of the force" was also superior?

At this point, I'm almost convinced you're trolling.

Rebel95
Originally posted by AncientPower
Anakin was an absolutely unstoppable Force of nature by Revenge of the Sith. The way he channelled his raw power and the mindset he entered to 'will' his opponents into defeat placed him up there with Yoda and Sidious. Operation Knightfall Vader was even deadlier, he slaughtered Cin Drallig and cut a swathe through Jedi with utter ease.
Yeah, and Vader's even better.

Anakin's raw power is greater but Vader's mastery over the force makes up for it. When has Anakin matched Vader's force feats?

DarthAnt66
Most of Vader's feats aren't better than the OCW Anakin comics, tbh.

ares834
v3CWRPLrBnM

Edit: Nice edit there....

AncientPower
Originally posted by ares834
WTF? So Anakin's "knowledge of the force" was also superior?

At this point, I'm almost convinced you're trolling.

No Vader's knowledge was much greater, obviously. Anakin's mindset as the Chosen One is a far greater trait than any Force mastery. Dooku's knowledge and mastery was superior as well, but it meant nothing.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ares834
: Nice edit there....
Thanks, although Vesh burning down city-blocks is better than most of what he has too. thumb up

quanchi112
Originally posted by ares834
WTF? So Anakin's "knowledge of the force" was also superior?

At this point, I'm almost convinced you're trolling. What the hell are you talking about ? Did you incorrectly break her post down. Is this like that time you thought I was referring to Vader when it was Sidious.

ares834
I try to make it a habit to ignore all of your posts.

Originally posted by AncientPower
No Vader's knowledge was much greater, obviously. Anakin's mindset as the Chosen One is a far greater trait than any Force mastery. Dooku's knowledge and mastery was superior as well, but it meant nothing.

My bad, I misread your post. And, yes, Zonakin would defeat Vader. However, that does not seem to be his normal state of mind. We've never seen him operate at those levels before (bar perhaps Mortis) and don't see him afterwards. Sure, it may be possible that he was operating at that level during the sack of the temple, but (to my knowledge) we have no proof of this.

DarthAnt66
Skywalker seemed to be able to enter the state of mind again when he was landing the Invisible Hand.

Also, so Ares, do you think Vader could replicate Skywalker's fight against Dooku, or do you think the fight isn't a reflection of Anakin's skills?

Rebel95

quanchi112
So Ares once again looks like an idiot after insulting another poster but he just didn't grasp the point. How embarrassing for you.

DarthAnt66
Rebel, those were from Vader's perspective. Out of everyone, I consider Vader in particular to be the least reliable source on the subject.

We know for a fact that the injuries he suffered did not strengthen his connection to the Force, but rather weakened it, as Lucas infamously pointed out.

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker seemed to be able to enter the state of mind again when he was landing the Invisible Hand.

Also, so Ares, do you think Vader could replicate Skywalker's fight against Dooku, or do you think the fight isn't a reflection of Anakin's skills?

I never got that impression from the film, it seems just to be his natural aptitude for flying there. Is there a reason to believe otherwise?

I certainly think Vader would defeat Dooku though nowhere near as easily as the novelization presents Anakin doing it at the end. And, no, I don't think it's representative of how Anakin typically fights.

quanchi112
So you believe Anakin showed greater light saber skill than Vader ever has in three films but balk at the idea of anyone comparing these two versions of Vader with a straight face.

DarthAnt66
Here:



And then later:

"Mace shook his head. Skywalker again. The chosen one. Who else could have brought in this hulk? Who else could have even come close?

---

So, you don't think Anakin Skywalker could do the following on neutral grounds?:



I think he definitely can - and such a force is simply beyond Vader (or Revan, for that matter). I assume that's why our views of this fight is so radically different.

Rebel95
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Rebel, those were from Vader's perspective. Out of everyone, I consider Vader in particular to be the least reliable source on the subject.

We know for a fact that the injuries he suffered did not strengthen his connection to the Force, but rather weakened it, as Lucas infamously pointed out.
On the subject of his own power? I would consider him to be the most reliable source...

Not according to that statement, which is canon. It's the pain that ultimately strengthens his connection:
"Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength."

quanchi112
This gave me an idea for a thread.

DarthAnt66
Why? We know he regards the Jedi, and his former self in particular, as weak. It's clear his teachings under Palpatine has him convinced that the light side is vastly inferior to that of the dark. In comparison, Palpatine remarks to Starkiller that Darth Vader is but a shadow of his former self, and this was around the same time as ANH, in which I recall another quote that states the same concerning Kenobi and Vader there as well.

It's not canon. It's from Vader's perspective. It doesn't carry the same weight as an unbiased narrator would. The injuries made Vader lose a lot of his midichlorians. Rage can't make up for that.

Deronn_solo
Why are you guys mixing Legends and Canon? KEK.

DarthAnt66
Because Canon is the best chance they have at making a case for Vader. wink

ares834
I think he can certainly fight in that state of mind and fight in a similar manner against Vader. However, I can't see an Anakin fighting at that level easily overcoming Vader if at all. It is, to borrow Dooku's terminology here, Anakin going "supercritical" that I question.

Rebel95
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why? We know he regards the Jedi, and his former self in particular, as weak. It's clear his teachings under Palpatine has him convinced that the light side is vastly inferior to that of the dark. In comparison, Palpatine remarks to Starkiller that Darth Vader is but a shadow of his former self, and this was around the same time as ANH, in which I recall another quote that states the same concerning Kenobi and Vader there as well.

It's not canon. It's from Vader's perspective. It doesn't carry the same weight as an unbiased narrator would. The injuries made Vader lose a lot of his midichlorians. Rage can't make up for that.
They don't view jedi as weak regarding their power, lol. They view them as weak regarding their philosophy, not using their emotions, not pursuing power, etc. Totally different.

The loss of midichlorians only affected his potential, which Anakin hadn't reached yet.

quanchi112
Ironically losing all those Midichlorians reaching his potential an impossibility.

Rebel95
Despite your excuses, the evidence for Vader>Anakin is there. There is nothing that specifically states Anakin as the superior.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rebel95
They don't view jedi as weak regarding their power, lol. They view them as weak regarding their philosophy, not using their emotions, not pursuing power, etc. Totally different.
Not entirely true. Dooku's views on a dark side Yoda, and his increase of power once becoming a Sith, makes clear Palpatine and his disciples view themselves as superior to the Jedi counterparts.

"Even a fraction of the dark side is more power than your Jedi arrogance can conceive; living in the light, you have never seen the depth of the darkness."

To quote Palpatine, in reference to his power in comparison to Yoda. ^


Except, as I pointed out before, all of Anakin's skills and powers are still rooted in that potential. Vader's isn't. As the Dooku novel pointed out, Skywalker only gets stronger and stronger - eventually reaching a point where he's literally on the same caliber as the anchorites. Vader has a set level. Even if we assume Vader's set level is greater than Anakin's, which it isn't based on the Dooku fight, it's not like Anakin can't simply draw deeper into his power, like he did against Dooku, and quickly begin dominating the fight.

Basically, I think you're vastly underestimating the importance of raw power.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ares834
I think he can certainly fight in that state of mind and fight in a similar manner against Vader. However, I can't see an Anakin fighting at that level easily overcoming Vader if at all. It is, to borrow Dooku's terminology here, Anakin going "supercritical" that I question.
Skywalker's performance against Dooku was better than Yoda's, in all honesty.

I see no reason to believe Vader can really even best Dooku in a duel, let alone do so with the same ease Anakin had.

What feat really stands out for Vader's superiority? Besting ANH Kenobi? Starkiller? erm

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker's performance against Dooku was better than Yoda's, in all honesty.

I see no reason to believe Vader can really even best Dooku in a duel, let alone do so with the same ease Anakin had.

What feat really stands out for Vader's superiority? Besting ANH Kenobi? Starkiller? erm

Not in those passages you posted. When the duel becomes 1 on 1 Dooku easily unbalances Anakin and is all but ensured to win until Palpatine goads Anakin.

And like I said, Vader certainly wouldn't defeat Dooku as easily as Anakin had. But Anakin only did so by going into "teh z0ne" which is something, I've already stated, I think unlikely to happen here.

Deronn_solo
Vader would certainly best Dooku in a duel, KEK. Hard fought matchup, sure - but I see his own skill, in conjunction with a form advantage doing the Count in.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ares834
Not in those passages you posted. When the duel becomes 1 on 1 Dooku easily unbalances Anakin and is all but ensured to win until Palpatine goads Anakin.

And like I said, Vader certainly wouldn't defeat Dooku as easily as Anakin had. But Anakin only did so by going into "teh z0ne" which is something, I've already stated, I think unlikely to happen here.
Except Skywalker was explicitly dominating and tearing Dooku apart, even before going in "teh z0ne" mode.

The only thing that spared Dooku was Dun Moch, which isn't indication of skill and power, but rather Skywalker's emotional instability.

AncientPower
Of course Vader is defeating Count Dooku, but in a way even close to the dominant performance Anakin put in? Hell no, far lesser characters have given him decent or even hard fights before.

Darth Vader as of Operation Knightfall is so far beyond what Vader can unleash, his treatment of Drallig, whom Dooku surmises could handily defeat early Grievous, was absolute humiliation.

chingchangwalla
Dooku's lightning not gonna be a Problem? He's no mug with TK either...

AncientPower

DarthAnt66
Damn. Case closed. thumb up

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Dooku's lightning not gonna be a Problem? He's no mug with TK either...

Dunno what that has to do with a duel.....


Originally posted by AncientPower
Of course Vader is defeating Count Dooku, but in a way even close to the dominant performance Anakin put in? Hell no, far lesser characters have given him decent or even hard fights before.

Darth Vader as of Operation Knightfall is so far beyond what Vader can unleash, his treatment of Drallig, whom Dooku surmises could handily defeat early Grievous, was absolute humiliation.
Well, yeah, I unquestionably. I was only commenting on the, "doubting Vader could be Dooku in a duel" at all part.

AncientPower
"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire." - Darth Sidious, Revenge Of The Sith

Knightfall Vader > All Sith before him in skill.

Darth Thor
Lucas always did seem to suggest Anakin > Vader. But that's all changed under Disney.

They wasted no time to have him say he's grown more powerful in the Force just a few years after ROTS, and for Pablo to confirm Rebels Vader is Prime Vader, and for OT Vader to have the most beastly telekinetic feats, and to Solo entire Rebel fleets (something Skywalker never displayed), and for Rebels Maul to confirm he can't take Vader e.t.c e.t.c



Originally posted by AncientPower
"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire." - Darth Sidious, Revenge Of The Sith

Knightfall Vader > All Sith before him in skill.



But not necessarily > OT Vader.

In fact New Disney-Canon has already clearly put Vader above Maul.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>