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http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/6206/418555-The%20Word.jpg


vs



http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/6/60/Lucifer16.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150316155839

If "The Word" = Logos, then LM is toast.

The Logos = The Voice(of God).

The Word = one(of seven) deadly aspects of The Voice/Logos... The Word serves The Voice:
http://i.imgur.com/6MB8wEd.jpg


ie. The Word =/= The Logos.

the word>the will? the logos>the will? not sure bout that. i don't think i've seen a direct comparison, but not sure how one aspect of god would be greater than any other....i suppose god could unmake lucifer, but would he do so with the word? not sure how this could be resolved unless there has been some direct comparison i'm unaware of.... /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas

the word>the will? the logos>the will? not sure bout that. i don't think i've seen a direct comparison, but not sure how one aspect of god would be greater than any other....

i suppose god could unmake lucifer, but would he do so with the word?

not sure how this could be resolved unless there has been some direct comparison i'm unaware of.... /shrug
Hey there Leo, ... isn't the "Voice" though, ... the "Voice of "God?"

If so, I suppose then, the "Word" would be the action taken by the "Voice?"

In other words, The "Voice" is the sound, while the "Word" is the product of said sound.

Galan, am I warm?

For what it's worth, it was kind of implied that The Word waited for Swamp Thing to weaken(in a battle against the Stone Elemental) before he attempted to attack him, because that's when ST was 'vulnerable':
http://i.imgur.com/b53jMov.jpg
I thought that was peculiar, because ST hadn't absorbed any of the Elemental Parliaments at the time -- he was just at standard levels... Though tbf, that was back in the day when standard ST could inextricably stomp beings who were confirmed to be on par with Spectre(per Monitor-tech), so meh...



Anywho, unless Lucifer is able to figure out how to unmake The Word via counter-vibrations(which also requires a form capable of approximating The Voice of God):
http://i.imgur.com/pcudPik.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dyNO8Pt.jpg
...Then I don't see how he can win.


Same coin, assuming we are talking peak-Lucifer here, I certainly don't see how The Word could win either. /shrug

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hey there Leo, ... isn't the "Voice" though, ... the "Voice of "God?"

If so, I suppose then, the "Word" would be the action taken by the "Voice?"

In other words, The "Voice" is the sound, while the "Word" is the product of said sound.

Galan, am I warm? http://i.imgur.com/WK8OXXW.png

it took me a bit to remember then find this, but i'll tell ya, the whole thing is a bit confusing. in the lucifer series the logos is used to refer to the voice of god, and is also the PLACE where the voice resides. it was where michael slept and used his power to continually rewrite god's name on every part of his creation after god left it. but lucifer was able to destroy the logos, soooo..... i dunno.

http://imgur.com/a/A1SJ4

http://imgur.com/a/oU6cz

http://imgur.com/a/ybjpN

http://imgur.com/a/zDOIU

http://imgur.com/a/OpbsG

http://imgur.com/a/fs2ZR

the word in the chamber affected elaine, but lucifer took no notice of it. were it embodied as it was in that ST arc, maybe things would be different, but michael beat the hell out of spectre too, so...not sure things would be different with the word vs lucifer. hard to say, but in that scene lucy didn't seem too bothered by the word--michael neither as he literally slept in the logos.... /shrug

^ God had stepped away from creation by that point, so his Voice was no longer present in the Logos -- that's why Michael was using his power to restore creation... But then, his power IS God's power(literally), so... #Paradox

Anyway, I think Lucifer just destroyed the physical chamber within the Silver City which once housed The Voice. Not sure that he actually affected The Voice itself. /shrug


Where Lucifer is concerned, I always go back to how other conceptual beings stack up in comparison to him. He is beyond all of the Endless, for example, and they each embody concepts on a multiversal level.

I mean, Morpheus believed Lucifer's power to be second only to God himself:
http://i.imgur.com/6lvKAX8.png

Heck, Death stated that Lucifer and Michael were God's "first big ideas", and that they predate creation:
http://i.imgur.com/j4xhu9k.jpg
Does that mean they predate The Word as well..?

We also know that even Death has no hold on Lucifer... Moreover, Death seemed to agree that Lucifer could kill her if her were so inclined:
http://i.imgur.com/BVDV0Wu.jpg

On top of that, a nearly powerless Lucifer actually did kill Fenris, who, like the Endless, was a conceptual being that literally embodied ruin and destruction.

-etc.


Would The Word be > The Endless as well? I would have to think so, but again, he's one(of seven) deadly aspects of The Voice... I can only imagine that Spectre is another..? Maybe The Word and Spectre have comparable powers..? Who the phuck knows at this point, lol.


over

You'd think that at the very least The Word can't be superior to Destiny, who per narration and such existed before The Word as it was traced into his book before it was spoken etc. Idk just makes it seem like at the very least Destiny would have some...advantage maybe? over him.

But then again Destiny is weird amongst even the Endless as he's the most powerful and basically omniscient (as the only one other than The Presence who can perceive The Plan) but can't really act...

But maybe more powerful than some of the Endless?

I'd probably lean towards Lucifer- I mean it's hard to argue feat wise but I mean, as 1/7 of The Voice which itself is only a fraction of Yahweh there's an implication The Word is not as potent as The Voice.


As for the Logos, I'm pretty sure once Yahweh left creation The Voice/The Presence etc all stopped being individual aspects as Yahweh fully retreated from the multiverse and thus why everything started collapsing. So while Michael was renewing the words it wasn't The Voice itself and as such Lucifer just blew up the empty tower. The fact that Yahweh is completely unaffected by the Logos being destroyed kinda supports that.

The Vertigoverse really does get complicated for something that only has about 8 or 9 books (that are mostly finished) set in it.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ God had stepped away from creation by that point, so his Voice was no longer present in the Logos -- that's why Michael was using his power to restore creation... But then, his power IS God's power(literally), so... #Paradox

Anyway, I think Lucifer just destroyed the physical chamber within the Silver City which once housed The Voice. Not sure that he actually affected The Voice itself. /shrug


Where Lucifer is concerned, I always go back to how other conceptual beings stack up in comparison to him. He is beyond all of the Endless, for example, and they each embody concepts on a multiversal level.

I mean, Morpheus believed Lucifer's power to be second only to God himself:
http://i.imgur.com/6lvKAX8.png

Heck, Death stated that Lucifer and Michael were God's "first big ideas", and that they predate creation:
http://i.imgur.com/j4xhu9k.jpg
Does that mean they predate The Word as well..?

We also know that even Death has no hold on Lucifer... Moreover, Death seemed to agree that Lucifer could kill her if her were so inclined:
http://i.imgur.com/BVDV0Wu.jpg

On top of that, a nearly powerless Lucifer actually did kill Fenris, who, like the Endless, was a conceptual being that literally embodied ruin and destruction.

-etc.


Would The Word be > The Endless as well? I would have to think so, but again, he's one(of seven) deadly aspects of The Voice... I can only imagine that Spectre is another..? Maybe The Word and Spectre have comparable powers..? Who the phuck knows at this point, lol.


over



it really is a bit of a clusterf#ck, no doubt. as for who predates what? lol would he have uttered a word to create the angels? da fuq if i know.... and as to whether he affected the voice: again, hard to say. my best guess is that LOGOS seems to refer to multiple things. it is the HOUSE of the voice AND apparently can represent the voice as well. i sought of thought the same thing as you, that he destroyed the housing only of the voice, but the housing was specifically stated to BE the logos. could be there is a distinction though. i wonder what destroying the housing meant for the voice though. i know god was...gone by then, but elaine was still affected by his voice so not sure. maybe it was lessened? maybe it's what remained? i dunno. must have been a reason michael stayed there though when he was working on keeping creation alive.

at kfish: you could be right--like i said above though, the voice was referenced by the angels around it, and it still affected elaine, so i don't think it was gone, or not entirely at least, though i guess it could have no longer been an 'aspect' in the strictest sense. not sure. i just remembered the scene after it was mentioned so brought it up for what it's worth.

Originally posted by leonidas
must have been a reason michael stayed there though when he was working on keeping creation alive. Good point.

Here's a bit more info on The Voice/Logos from the Lucifer series:
http://i.imgur.com/w5RmoVC.jpg

Maybe that structure is, like, the focal/nexus point through which the Demiurgic power(ie. The Voice) flows directly from God and into Heaven/creation..? Because you're right, it's definitely special. Not only did Michael specifically go there when he renewed the whole of existence, but one second he is lying unconscious within it(after preforming said feat), then Lucifer destroys the structure, and *poof*, he wakes up again... Obviously Lucifer knew what destroying the structure would do -- that's why he destroyed it in the first place.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop blowing my mind, leo. sly

Good points, I guess I just always held it as what was left in the Logos was the echoes of The Voice so to speak, and that's what Michael was pouring his power into to renew creation.

The whole what came first thing gets even more confusing when you factor in that there was a primordial creation where The Silk Man lived before the actual Multiverse which may or may not have been made by Yahweh AND the fact that First of The Fallen was technically created before anyone.

Plus by definition Destiny is older than Time (as the Void before creation has no time, with everything happening at once)... who as per Sandman Overture is the father of the Endless and a being in his own right. Although there is the theory that Time/Night are aspects of Yahweh/GEB as the 'parents' of the Endless.

Originally posted by Galan007
Good point.

Here's a bit more info on The Voice/Logos from the Lucifer series:
http://i.imgur.com/w5RmoVC.jpg

Maybe that structure is, like, the focal/nexus point through which the Demiurgic power(ie. The Voice) flows directly from God and into Heaven/creation..? Because you're right, it's definitely special. Not only did Michael specifically go there when he renewed the whole of existence, but one second he is lying unconscious within it(after preforming said feat), then Lucifer destroys the structure, and *poof*, he wakes up again... Obviously Lucifer knew what destroying the structure would do -- that's why he destroyed it in the first place.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop blowing my mind, leo. sly

lol wouldn't be so damn hard if the writers actually spent some time and got together to try and come up with some sort of uniform idea they wanted to convey. the interesting thing to me about that scan is that is says pretty specifically that the voice does not decay, and that michael was proof against it. can't say for sure that that ends this thread, but....it could be interpreted that way if that scene is the ONLY thing we look at. maybe? there's too much that doesn't seem to match up from other sources (ST, spectre in particular) to say that definitively, but it does seem to be the only explicit comparison we have concerning michael/lucifer and the logos.... muddled further of course by the fact that god was gone. hrmph.

as for the room itself, not sure. seems when god is speaking, it is from that room that his voice emanates. it also seems to retain his voice in some sort of never-decaying, repeating echo. "the word"--the character--would seem to be a physical manifestation of that place maybe? clearly it possessed only limited freedom to act though and held the power of the word, but was unable to use it fully, cuz, well, if he could have it couldn't have been canceled out.....lucifer did a good job of showing just how powerful the presence really was, and did a nice job of trying to explain his omniscience imo.

@kfish: not sure first of the fallen can really be force fitted into the lucifer mythos. he simply contradicts, outright, what was shown in lucifer. i guess it depends purely on which source you choose to believe. /shrug

silk man always interested me. he seemed so....ominous and cool. i always had the impression he was a liar though so as regarded his history i'm not sure what to think. the great nothing before creation isn't really clarified from what i remember in the lucifer series. i think it is alluded to, but not really touched so, who knows.

overture was cool--it worked for me, made sense i guess, that the endless would be born out of time. i thought destiny came into being with the word--he was there to scribe the first action. time could have existed prior to that maybe. maybe it was formless, directionless until the word was spoken? lol

speculation, but....we don't have too much else to go on and what we do have seems to be contradicted in places so, yeah. lol

Originally posted by leonidas
lol wouldn't be so damn hard if the writers actually spent some time and got together to try and come up with some sort of uniform idea they wanted to convey. the interesting thing to me about that scan is that is says pretty specifically that the voice does not decay, and that michael was proof against it. can't say for sure that that ends this thread, but....it could be interpreted that way if that scene is the ONLY thing we look at. maybe? there's too much that doesn't seem to match up from other sources (ST, spectre in particular) to say that definitively, but it does seem to be the only explicit comparison we have concerning michael/lucifer and the logos.... muddled further of course by the fact that god was gone. hrmph.

Regarding the Voice/Logoz being weakened by God's departure (potentially) - the same can be said of Lucifer. Would they be proportionally weakened? Maybe, maybe not. I'd say yes in the absence of any other evidence as both are aspects of God, I don't see why one would be affected by God's departure more than the other.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Plus by definition Destiny is older than Time (as the Void before creation has no time, with everything happening at once)... who as per Sandman Overture is the father of the Endless and a being in his own right. Although there is the theory that Time/Night are aspects of Yahweh/GEB as the 'parents' of the Endless. Destiny is older than any concepts. The Word that sparked creation was traced in his Book before it was ever spoken aloud:
http://i.imgur.com/SzIQO5B.jpg
IOW, Destiny(like Lucifer and Michael) predates creation.

Time would have been created the instant Yahweh birthed the whole of creation -- he is likely the second oldest amongst the conceptual beings.


When all creation ends, however, Destiny and Time are likely taken by Death simultaneously, as there is no longer a need for the concepts they embody. Destiny's Book ends, and Time no longer exists in the void of nothingness that remains.

Those are my thoughts on them, at least.

^ Given that Lucifer and Michael are part of "the plan" from the instant they were birthed, it's logical that they too followed Destiny in the order of things (although that's somewhat contradicted by the text. Also, birthing order =/= power)

Yeah I just find it funny that Destiny predates Time who is also his father.

I think the only beings who truly predate Destiny are Yahweh and GEB. Silk Man is a weird one because we don't know enough about the previous creation, and FotF probably came into being at the same time, as we know he existed before creation and he was the first non-Yahweh thing, so is the first thing to follow The Plan/Destiny's book.


This has reminded me that I was gonna try to make a timeline of sorts for the Vertigoverse at some point when I had the time.

Originally posted by Cogito
^ Given that Lucifer and Michael are part of "the plan" from the instant they were birthed, it's logical that they too followed Destiny in the order of things (although that's somewhat contradicted by the text. Also, birthing order =/= power) Lucifer and Michael's destinies were preordained, which means they could have come after Destiny... But then Death said that Lucifer and Michael were God's "FIRST big ideas", so I dunno..? I can't imagine Destiny not being considered a "big idea", lol.

As for the birthing order/power correlation: Death did seem to allude to it being a 'thing' where Lucifer and Michael are concerned. She stated that because they were God's first big ideas, they came out "undiluted". I can't imagine that being a reference to anything but power/role. /shrug

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Yeah I just find it funny that Destiny predates Time who is also his father.

I think the only beings who truly predate Destiny are Yahweh and GEB. Silk Man is a weird one because we don't know enough about the previous creation, and FotF probably came into being at the same time, as we know he existed before creation and he was the first non-Yahweh thing, so is the first thing to follow The Plan/Destiny's book.


This has reminded me that I was gonna try to make a timeline of sorts for the Vertigoverse at some point when I had the time. I just went back and reread Overture. I had forgotten about a few factoids that change the birthing order a bit.

Per Gaiman's most recent info, it would seem that Time and Night were the first concepts in existence. Their eventual 'union' birthed the Endless, along with the rest of creation:
http://i.imgur.com/hU2feOZ.jpg

Hence why Time refers to all of the Endless(even Destiny) and "his children". He is their Father:
http://i.imgur.com/esna7HW.jpg
*Furthermore, Time states that HE gave Destiny "everything he had" as his birthright. He gave Destiny his Book. In essence, Time fashioned the very concept of Destiny -- that's why Time and Destiny are so closely intertwined as concepts.

And as mentioned above: Night is the Mother of the Endless:
http://i.imgur.com/DO8VGKb.jpg

Just so everyone is aware: Night is the embodiment of void/nothingness -- the darkness that existed before creation was spawned:
http://i.imgur.com/wmDIySP.jpg
*Her and Time's roles were better-defined in the first scan.


That being said, this is the revised birthing order of the first few conceptual beings:
1.) Night: she existed before the beginning.
2.) Time: he existed at the beginning, and created Destiny.
3.) Destiny: as mentioned above, he was created by Time directly.
-The rest: they were created by the union of Time and Night, and their stories are all housed within Destiny's Book.

*I believe Lucifer and Michael could fit into the "#1.5" slot, as they existed before the beginning as well... That's kind of open to interpretation, though. /shrug




On a similar, but somewhat unrelated note: Overture was a total mindf*ck.

It also introduced other conceptual beings, like "Dusk"(servant of Night):
http://i.imgur.com/TzHQGCu.jpg

And "Glory":
http://i.imgur.com/ZTtlFp8.jpg
*I am not at all sure what this abstract version of Colonel Sanders' role/purpose is.

Originally posted by Galan007
As for the birthing order/power correlation: Death did seem to allude to it being a 'thing' where Lucifer and Michael are concerned. She stated that because they were God's first big ideas, they came out "undiluted". I can't imagine that being a reference to anything but power/role. /shrug

I was merely suggesting that if Destiny predated Lucifer/Michael, then that does not mean Destiny is more powerful than the two.

lol good luck with the whole timeline thing... i'd forgotten that bio about the book existing before the word was uttered, but the concept of before would imply time existed as well, wouldn't it...?

anyway, does it explicitly say in overture that time birthed the others? destiny is an odd character for real though. lucifer described him as nothing more than a side effect, based on god's deterministic approach to creation. that seems as good a description as any. lucifer tried ripping the book to blind destiny, but of course that was in the book too and so that didn't work and michael threatened to take the book from him but apparently it does not exist unless destiny has it (though i think that has maybe been contradicted at some point....).

the book isn't perfect though--wasn't it confounded in overture? and god intentionally built in some randomness to his creation near the end of lucifer. i wonder what the book would have said about that (god mentions this randomness i think in the same scene where he grabs creation and holds it in his hand).

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer and Michael's destinies were preordained, which means they could have come after Destiny... But then Death said that Lucifer and Michael were God's "FIRST big ideas", so I dunno..? I can't imagine Destiny not being considered a "big idea", lol.

As for the birthing order/power correlation: Death did seem to allude to it being a 'thing' where Lucifer and Michael are concerned. She stated that because they were God's first big ideas, they came out "undiluted". I can't imagine that being a reference to anything but power/role. /shrug

I just went back and reread Overture. I had forgotten about a few factoids that change the birthing order a bit.

Per Gaiman's most recent info, it would seem that Time and Night were the first concepts in existence. Their eventual 'union' birthed the Endless, along with the rest of creation:
http://i.imgur.com/hU2feOZ.jpg

Hence why Time refers to all of the Endless(even Destiny) and "his children". He is their Father:
http://i.imgur.com/esna7HW.jpg
*Furthermore, Time states that HE gave Destiny "everything he had" as his birthright. He gave Destiny his Book. In essence, Time fashioned the very concept of Destiny -- that's why Time and Destiny are so closely intertwined as concepts.

And as mentioned above: Night is the Mother of the Endless:
http://i.imgur.com/DO8VGKb.jpg

Just so everyone is aware: Night is the embodiment of void/nothingness -- the darkness that existed before creation was spawned:
http://i.imgur.com/wmDIySP.jpg
*Her and Time's roles were better-defined in the first scan.


That being said, this is the revised birthing order of the first few conceptual beings:
1.) Night: she existed before the beginning.
2.) Time: he existed at the beginning, and created Destiny.
3.) Destiny: as mentioned above, he was created by Time directly.
-The rest: they were created by the union of Time and Night, and their stories are all housed within Destiny's Book.

*I believe Lucifer and Michael could fit into the "#1.5" slot, as they existed before the beginning as well... That's kind of open to interpretation, though. /shrug




On a similar, but somewhat unrelated note: Overture was a total mindf*ck.

It also introduced other conceptual beings, like "Dusk"(servant of Night):
http://i.imgur.com/TzHQGCu.jpg

And "Glory":
http://i.imgur.com/ZTtlFp8.jpg
*I am not at all sure what this abstract version of Colonel Sanders' role/purpose is.



the idea that time is older than destiny sort of fits. in that bio scan you showed it just says the word was traced by hand in the book--nothing to say it was destiny himself who wrote the word. likely it was god THEN destiny came into play to safeguard the book. god did say multiple times that he basically let things come into their own in their own way and time, but that there was always a plan. seems contradictory, but hey, who's to argue with an omnipotent....

I'd vote Lucifer, here.

Originally posted by leonidas


the idea that time is older than destiny sort of fits. in that bio scan you showed it just says the word was traced by hand in the book--nothing to say it was destiny himself who wrote the word. likely it was god THEN destiny came into play to safeguard the book. god did say multiple times that he basically let things come into their own in their own way and time, but that there was always a plan. seems contradictory, but hey, who's to argue with an omnipotent.... Time said that he gave Destiny "all he had" as his birthright. Like you said: that fits pretty well with Destiny's conceptual purpose.

After all, Destiny's Book contains absolutely every event that will ever occur from the start of creation until its end. It is, in essence, a novelization of time itself. So in that respect, Time literally did give Destiny all he had to give: himself.


F*ck me. Gaiman's mind-phuckery went overboard in Overture...

Glory is the first of the Faerie I believe, you see him explaining what the realm of Faerie will be in the Dream chapter of Endless Nights.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Glory is the first of the Faerie I believe, you see him explaining what the realm of Faerie will be in the Dream chapter of Endless Nights. Yeah, I remembered that guy from this panel:
http://i.imgur.com/JV57PdB.jpg
But he just appeared in that one panel and went unnamed in the chapter, so I wasn't sure if it was him... I'd probably have to dig back into The Books of Faerie to figure out what Glory's all about... But that's WAY too tedious at this point, lol. If he is the first of the Faerie or w/e, that was one hell of a random appearance from him in Overture.


Anywho, I'm glad you mentioned Endless Nights, because it reminded me of this scene, wherein Death(as well as the rest of the Endless) are conceptually described:
http://i.imgur.com/XWwV25g.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5M2bH7T.jpg

Hard to know what would actually happen. I think the best guess to see what would happen is when Destiny and Lucifer interacted with each other. Some believe The Word and Destiny to be the same being, or at the very least two sides of the same coin, like how Morpheus is known as Lord L'Zoril to J'onn J'onzz, or like how Michael is referred to as a Hindu deity in the Spectre's comic.

I found someone did ask DC if they was the same being, and they did answer it to a point. Here's the scan if anyone wishes to see. Its also known that when God creates something he speaks them into existence.
http://i.imgur.com/ZAxEMUn.jpg

Lucifer stomps . The word is around spectres level .

The Swamp Thing killed the Word in Swamp Thing volume 2, issue 170.

http://i.imgur.com/nGHpRBHm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/Ni0CbF9m.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/D1Ma39gm.jpg

No, Tefe killed The Word. She did so by approximating a sound which was the exact opposite of The Voice of God(along with a form that could sustain it.) This essentially cancelled-out The Word.

It's been a long time since I read the comic. All I remember is that the Word died.

Either way. Shouldn't Lucifer know that and be able to produce the exact same sound?

It's possible, I guess, though I'd still be inclined to go the stalemate route. /shrug

Lucifer and michael are far above anyone in the DC creation besides The overvoid and The Presence . If archangels are above Night and Time they would easily beat down any beings short of god . I can even see Dream of Endless beating word .

In dream of thousand cats storyline , In the beginning of the universe cats were always bigger then the humans , But a collective dreams of thousand people altered the reality from the beginning of time in such a way that humans were always larger then the cats in all possibilities .

All the embodiments such as stars , galaxies , universes and spatial dimensions are below the power of endless who are below the power of angels .

Lucifer

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/03/52/c2/0352c2b707ade48e5761ec21c8802915.jpg