Legends Dooku vs Canon Vader

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Kurk
Who wins in what and why?

Sabers
Force
All Out

cs_zoltan
Vader in all, because he's better.

Trocity
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader in all, because he's better.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader in all, because he's better.

Kurk
Great arguments, guys.

carthage
Vader's force feats are well above Dooku, adding in his strength advantage and he should take this in a stellar fight

Nai
Question: What stops Dooku from simply electrocuting Vader with Force Lightning in the Force / All Out parts of that versus fight?

Canon Vader is not exactly the lightning tanking guy we see in TFU II, is he?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Nai
Question: What stops Dooku from simply electrocuting Vader with Force Lightning in the Force / All Out parts of that versus fight?

Canon Vader is not exactly the lightning tanking guy we see in TFU II, is he?



Not sure about Force only, but safe to say Vader could block it with his Saber considering even Anakin could.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not sure about Force only, but safe to say Vader could block it with his Saber considering even Anakin could.

And, in the situations where Anakin could not ?

click me

Then one must remember how good Dooku is at performing Force attacks one assailant, while fending off another with his lightsaber.Click

You might have to remind me on how good Vader's reactions are, because I seem to remember two instances in canon, where relative noobs (Ashoka & ESB Luke) have tagged him with their lightsabers.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And, in the situations where Anakin could not ?

click me



So you're saying it's Possible Dooku might still get in a blast of Lightning which hits Vader at some point during the fight... Sure.. It's possible.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Then one must remember how good Dooku is at performing Force attacks one assailant, while fending off another with his lightsaber.Click


Of course those are combatants who are not close to Vader's league that he's able to do that to.

Dooku wasn't however able to pull that off against ROTS Anakin or Yoda, who were just allover Dooku in Sabers.

Still I admit, Dooku is skilled like that and that it's possible for him to get in a Lightning shot. But honestly it's just as possible that Vader force chokes Dooku. Vader might soak up a Lightning blast, but if Vader force chokes Dooku, then that's it for him.



Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You might have to remind me on how good Vader's reactions are, because I seem to remember two instances in canon, where relative noobs (Ashoka & ESB Luke) have tagged him with their lightsabers.



We all know Vader was taking it easy on ESB Luke, and could have killed him several times before he got hit.

As for Ahsoka.. Noob? She was stalemating Darth Maul erm

Emperordmb
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader in all, because he's better.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nai
Question: What stops Dooku from simply electrocuting Vader with Force Lightning in the Force / All Out parts of that versus fight?

Canon Vader is not exactly the lightning tanking guy we see in TFU II, is he? That glow stick he likes to carry around would be a start, that the Force barrier that protected him from the destruction of a Sith super weapon. thumb up

Emperordmb
He was able to power through Sidious's lightning well enough to pick him up with one arm and throw him down a shaft even in canon. I doubt Dooku could get a protracted enough blast on Vader to end him.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Nai
Question: What stops Dooku from simply electrocuting Vader with Force Lightning in the Force / All Out parts of that versus fight?

Canon Vader is not exactly the lightning tanking guy we see in TFU II, is he? Horrendous point since he just had his hand cut off and he about to hurl Palpatine to his death. Is he one handed for the fight ? Didn't Kenobi just casually deflect his fl in AOTC ? Dis I be ours de acting from Nai as I've pointed out. Facts always destroy your theoretical and conjecture based rants.

Nephthys
Originally posted by quanchi112
Dis I be ours de acting from Nai as I've pointed out.

What?

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So you're saying it's Possible Dooku might still get in a blast of Lightning which hits Vader at some point during the fight... Sure.. It's possible.

It certainly is possible, probable or perhaps even very likely. One has to remember that with every thematic saber-lock, also comes an electrocution opportunity.



Not close to Vader's league? You'll have to define who sets the parameters for said 'league', and why these two aren't close. You can also explain to me how Vader fights the Ventress/Savage duo together, and survives.



A premise resting solely on one's blind faith for material that was written about the movies, that is not the movies. What you must understand Thor, is that any source detailing the films is merely an interpretation of events that happen on screen. They can often be true, but If they conflict with the movie in question or Lucas' statements, then they are - as deemed by LFL - undesirable.

What are the facts?

1) Just as Kit Fisto did not grow two heads, one severed on Palaptine's desk in the Novel, and the other still attached to his lifeless body in the films, Anakin never did get the upper-hand on Dooku. That is until the latter attempted Dun Moch, anyhow. Dooku had no problem with his strength combined with Kenobi's, and he had no problem flinging back Skywalker while Force-choking his master.

2) Yoda is quite a different story altogether and not really comparable to Vader




The difference is Thor, is that the Count can be very good at exploiting these opportunities as they arise, and unlike Vader, he's shown a consistent track-record of dominating people with the Force, while lightsabering in succession. Vader can boast what exactly? Choking Admiral Ozzel? Hurling debris at a Neophyte Luke? And despite facing relatively weak opponents, he's not doing much mid-battle Force choking. So what makes you think he can do so to the Count?



Not having the intent to kill Luke, is quite different from maintaining a competent defense. I wonder how you think this is a valid excuse for Vader, and his inability to parry strikes from inexperienced foes.



Well, exactly.

Deronn_solo
Vader, obviously.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
It certainly is possible, probable or perhaps even very likely. One has to remember that with every thematic saber-lock, also comes an electrocution opportunity.


Sure.



Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Not close to Vader's league? You'll have to define who sets the parameters for said 'league', and why these two aren't close. You can also explain to me how Vader fights the Ventress/Savage duo together, and survives.


Well you know, given Maul stomped Savage pretty easily and admits his inferiority to Vader.




Originally posted by Ziggystardust
A premise resting solely on one's blind faith for material that was written about the movies, that is not the movies. What you must understand Thor, is that any source detailing the films is merely an interpretation of events that happen on screen. They can often be true, but If they conflict with the movie in question or Lucas' statements, then they are - as deemed by LFL - undesirable.

What are the facts?

1) Just as Kit Fisto did not grow two heads, one severed on Palaptine's desk in the Novel, and the other still attached to his lifeless body in the films, Anakin never did get the upper-hand on Dooku. That is until the latter attempted Dun Moch, anyhow. Dooku had no problem with his strength combined with Kenobi's, and he had no problem flinging back Skywalker while Force-choking his master.

2) Yoda is quite a different story altogether and not really comparable to Vader


No I'm just talking about the movies. The fights where Dooku was overwhelmed. Did he force push or shoot lightning at Yoda mid-Saber fight? Or at ROTS Anakin?





Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The difference is Thor, is that the Count can be very good at exploiting these opportunities as they arise, and unlike Vader, he's shown a consistent track-record of dominating people with the Force, while lightsabering in succession. Vader can boast what exactly? Choking Admiral Ozzel? Hurling debris at a Neophyte Luke? And despite facing relatively weak opponents, he's not doing much mid-battle Force choking. So what makes you think he can do so to the Count?


Right, but when Vader is using TK to crush AT-AT's, you really going to tell me he's not a superior telekinetic to Dooku, or that he wouldn't crush those same Jedi/Sith with TK that Dooku did?

Add that to a force enraged Savage Force choking Dooku and Ventress, and a force enraged Ventress force choking Anakin and Obi-Wan.. Then think that Sidious was able to Force choke Dooku from another system, then yeah I can't help but thinking that Vader Force Choking Dooku is a real possibility.



Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Not having the intent to kill Luke, is quite different from maintaining a competent defense. I wonder how you think this is a valid excuse for Vader, and his inability to parry strikes from inexperienced foes.


It's a valid excuse because Luke could have been dead multiple time. In fact he could have had his limbs chopped off just earlier when Vader had him on the floor saying "you're beaten."

So he keeps letting Luke off, then eventually gets hit once (by the guy whose basically the next Chosen One), and you're really going to use that as proof that Vader's not good erm



Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well, exactly.


Yeah she stalemated Maul who stomped Opress with ease decades earlier, and seemingly only grows in power over time.

Also look how Vader handled Kanan with one arm. Can't really say Kanan's a nobody anymore. Now that we know the GI he defeated was a Jedi Knight and a Temple Guard, and what he accomplished against Maul.

NTJack0
Vader handily.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sure.

So it is a concession.



And that might be a muddy comparison, because I doubt that Vader can handle a Savage in such a manner. Which is particularly the case if the Nightbrother wants to harm him. Consider for a moment, that Obi Wan is a rather long way from his prime when challenging Vader in A New Hope, yet in the past, he's been disarmed by Savage on one occasion, soundly bested by Maul on another and has only come of better against the two with favorable circumstances. Savage has also given Ventress problems on his own, and Ventress herself has presented a large threat to almost everyone on the order, including Kenobi. If it's true that Obi-wan is no longer in his glory-years, why does he evade such an imminent stomp from Vader? Of whom by order of scaling, should be able to steamroll Kenobi?

And their rests the inherent problem with inscrutable a>b>c logic. You're cherry picking the fights favorable to your conclusion, while overlooking ones that aren't. More importantly, you're ignoring the circumstances. When Savage decides to 'attack' Maul, do you really think he's doing so with the intention to hurt his brother? Or... is he approaching the fight half-hardheartedly, not drawing upon his inner hatred as to bulldoze Maul, like he does with most of his opponents? Anyhow, you now have a reasonable answer to why Maul can so easily suppress his brother in that situation. I do think however, that a death-match between the two would look very different.



Well if you didn't realize, Yoda is a little different to Vader in both style and stature. Yoda comes with powers that can efficiently repel Dooku's, and likely has the most impressive use of augmentation in his time. Yoda's swordplay alone was enough to leave Palpatine disarmed - according to the ROTS script. And we do see on-screen, that the Emperor has conveniently lost his lightsaber at some point during the fight. Hopefully you can see why an assault from Vader, may not be quite the same as one from Yoda. Catching my drift?



It is still the case. The soon-to-be Vader is far more aggressive there than at any point during his career. The final nail in the coffin, hits when Anakin enters the 'zone'. But we also know that Luke Skywalker can present own version of the 'zone', which was catalyzed in almost the exact same manner, and used to stomp Vader just as well. One can only speculate the disparities, but Anakin still has a stronger Force potential than his son, and is almost certainly a more refined duelist. At the end of the fight, Dooku has to use every bit of Force power possible just to maintain a steady augmentation, he could have attempted some sort of distraction with the Force, but his opponent (zonakin) is so much better, that it's a useless suggestion. Unless you are trying to imply that the post-suit shell of his former self, is on level with Anakin's destruction incarnate?

Ziggystardust

Ziggystardust

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by carthage
Vader's force feats are well above Dooku, adding in his strength advantage and he should take this in a stellar fight
Originally posted by Emperordmb
He was able to power through Sidious's lightning well enough to pick him up with one arm and throw him down a shaft even in canon. I doubt Dooku could get a protracted enough blast on Vader to end him. Originally posted by NTJack0
Vader handily. Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader, obviously.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader in all, because he's better.

On a side note, stop being fapboys.

relentless1
Dooku can certainly use FL in the heat of battle as seen in TCW and it would most likely fry Vaders suit. Vader didn't "power through" the Emperors FL he grabbed him and quickly (3 seconds tops) tossed him into the reactor shaft, immediately afterwards his life support is failing and he's slowly dying, certainly not in any condition to fight anybody so yeah, FL could definitely work in Dookus favour.

Funnily enough about Dooku is that the novel of ROTS paints him in a much worse light than the movie does. In the film he handles Obi and Ani with utter ease up until Anakin zones out and bested him while the novel makes it seem like as if Dooku is up shits creek from the outset of the fight...

Ironic, the legends Dooku was picked for better feats but he fares way worse than his canon counterpart in his measuring stick battle.

Nai
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not sure about Force only, but safe to say Vader could block it with his Saber considering even Anakin could.

Except in the situation where he couldn't? wink

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That glow stick he likes to carry around would be a start, that the Force barrier that protected him from the destruction of a Sith super weapon. thumb up

Force barrier that protected him from the destruction of a Sith super weapon? When did that happen?

Darth Thor
^ Rebels Season 2 finale I'm guessing.

That said I'm sure the first Marvel Star Wars and Vader comics had him using force barrier . But would need to go back and check.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nai
Force barrier that protected him from the destruction of a Sith super weapon? When did that happen? In Rebels, he's caught in the center of a explosion of dark side energy, and emerges alive:

https://i.imgflip.com/18347i.gif https://i.imgflip.com/18349m.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXiwr25OU_w

And yeah, he has various barrier feats in the Marvel comics as well.

Nai
Originally posted by Beniboybling
In Rebels, he's caught in the center of a explosion of dark side energy, and emerges alive:

https://i.imgflip.com/18347i.gif https://i.imgflip.com/18349m.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXiwr25OU_w

And yeah, he has various barrier feats in the Marvel comics as well.

Seems legit.

Guess I need to watch "Rebels"...

Darth Thor
Ziggystardust I don't have time right now, but will get back to you.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So it is a concession.


I concede that's it's a possibility, given it's happened. But I don't concede it's a probability considering how often he's been able to get a direct lightning shot.




Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And that might be a muddy comparison, because I doubt that Vader can handle a Savage in such a manner. Which is particularly the case if the Nightbrother wants to harm him. Consider for a moment, that Obi Wan is a rather long way from his prime when challenging Vader in A New Hope, yet in the past, he's been disarmed by Savage on one occasion, soundly bested by Maul on another and has only come of better against the two with favorable circumstances. Savage has also given Ventress problems on his own, and Ventress herself has presented a large threat to almost everyone on the order, including Kenobi. If it's true that Obi-wan is no longer in his glory-years, why does he evade such an imminent stomp from Vader? Of whom by order of scaling, should be able to steamroll Kenobi?


Not sure why you would doubt Vader easily handling Opress when both Maul and Obi-Wan have done so. And given Savage has literally no advantage over Vader in a fight. Savage's strengths are physical strength and powerful TK.

Vader not only has far far superior TK, but is also likely physically stronger. Just way way more skilled. Like skill isn't even a comparison between Vader and Opress.

I'm not convinced Old Ben is past his prime, given the conflicting sources on the matter. Almost certain Disney canon won't have it that way the way they've been protecting their prize boy Vader.


Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And their rests the inherent problem with inscrutable a>b>c logic. You're cherry picking the fights favorable to your conclusion, while overlooking ones that aren't. More importantly, you're ignoring the circumstances. When Savage decides to 'attack' Maul, do you really think he's doing so with the intention to hurt his brother? Or... is he approaching the fight half-hardheartedly, not drawing upon his inner hatred as to bulldoze Maul, like he does with most of his opponents? Anyhow, you now have a reasonable answer to why Maul can so easily suppress his brother in that situation. I do think however, that a death-match between the two would look very different.


What fights am I ignoring exactly? I've been addressing your "Vader sucks because Luke hit him" arguments, which may I add is you cherry picking the fight you want to highlight.


According to the novel Shadow Conspiracy, Savage was enraged and striking at Maul with lethal intent. In fact Maul purposefully pissed him off with the finger pushing his shoulder putting him down. He basically told him "You wanna hang around with me you're the Apprentice. Otherwise you're dead. You're choice."

This idea that Opress wasn't really trying is baseless and usually used to lowball Maul's feat over him.



Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well if you didn't realize, Yoda is a little different to Vader in both style and stature. Yoda comes with powers that can efficiently repel Dooku's, and likely has the most impressive use of augmentation in his time. Yoda's swordplay alone was enough to leave Palpatine disarmed - according to the ROTS script. And we do see on-screen, that the Emperor has conveniently lost his lightsaber at some point during the fight. Hopefully you can see why an assault from Vader, may not be quite the same as one from Yoda. Catching my drift?



It is still the case. The soon-to-be Vader is far more aggressive there than at any point during his career. The final nail in the coffin, hits when Anakin enters the 'zone'. But we also know that Luke Skywalker can present own version of the 'zone', which was catalyzed in almost the exact same manner, and used to stomp Vader just as well. One can only speculate the disparities, but Anakin still has a stronger Force potential than his son, and is almost certainly a more refined duelist. At the end of the fight, Dooku has to use every bit of Force power possible just to maintain a steady augmentation, he could have attempted some sort of distraction with the Force, but his opponent (zonakin) is so much better, that it's a useless suggestion. Unless you are trying to imply that the post-suit shell of his former self, is on level with Anakin's destruction incarnate?


Point being Dooku couldn't get off a single Lightning shot against 2 noteworthy opponents he faced. Yoda and ROTS Anakin. And he didn't Force push or Lightning either of them mid-fight. So again, it's a possibility, but less and less likely the more he's being pushed.

Also, even if Vader did get hit, doubt a Lightning shot or Force push from Dooku would be the end of Vader given what he can tank.

However a Force choke, and Physically overpowering Dooku would be the end of Dooku.

And yes I do believe "post-suit shell of his former self" Vader is on a level of Anakin's incarnate destruct, given that's exactly what we've been told in the new Canon.

The suit might slightly limit his mobility, but he's actually grown More Powerful in the Dark Side. The whole "shell of his former self" no longer applies, or only applies in regards to potential.

Darth Thor

Darth Thor

Emperordmb
Yeah, Vader still wins.

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