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Still awake unfortunately, and while the adrenaline still pumps within my veins, I wanna ask a question as a writer of stories(original ones) and fan of Vader.

When is Vader allowed to be challenged? When is he allowed to struggle against Force Users?

Weird question. But i ask this because Canon has treated Vader with the upmost respect, which is fine and rad. But him casually dominating everyone is great, a sight to be seen, but what sort of advantages, circumstances and such most be involved in order for Force Users to give Vader a run for his money?

What most an author do in order to make his/her character pose a believable challenge to arguably one of the Strongest Force Users in the old and new EUs? I mean, surely no simple no-name can stand up to Vader yes?

I ask because, we're bound to see him duel Jedi, it's simply a matter of when. So penny for your thoughts?

Just be Galen Marek.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Just be Galen Marek. Luke Skywalker.

The character n era to be establish as above the other Jedi and the circumstances of their victory must be circumstantial or open to interpretation.

When he faces Maul and loses the duel but ultimately kills him(as depicted in Ressurection).

hes challenged continually physically in his early years and the Imperial hierarchy subtly challenge his authority constantly up until his death

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
What most an author do in order to make his/her character pose a believable challenge to arguably one of the Strongest Force Users in the old and new EUs?

Not sure what most of them would do, but Filoni would just wank his character to infinity.

Vader better hope he doesn't run into Maul.

Who can't even best Kanan? I'm sure.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader better hope he doesn't run into Maul.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who can't even best Kanan? I'm sure. Neither did Vader.

I said can. Learn to read.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I said can. Learn to read. You said can't not can. You aren't very clever.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You said can't, not can.

Commas save lives.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You said can't not can. You aren't very clever.
As in can+not. Not did. Man, is English really this hard for you?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Commas save lives. Nah.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
As in can+not. Not did. Man, is English really this hard for you? Can + not means the opposite than can does. Are you serious? So according to you can means can plus not. Can not also doesn't mean the same thing as did not.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Galen Marek could beat ROTJ Vader.

Resisting Palpatine's Lightning without Oneness for like 30 seconds makes him > Vader.

No, Vader couldn't do that, because we've seen what happens when Vader, or even ROTJ Luke tries to do that.

They get fried.

Darth Vader is just another boring mary sue in the making. Disney will ruin Star Wars.

Disney isn't ruining shit.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Can + not means the opposite than can does. Are you serious? So according to you can means can plus not. Can not also doesn't mean the same thing as did not.
I like how you're struggling to get out of the corner you've backed yourself into. I have no idea how DP has so many issues with a sub-carthage level troll.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
When is Vader allowed to be challenged? When is he allowed to struggle against Force Users?

Weird question. But i ask this because Canon has treated Vader with the upmost respect, which is fine and rad. But him casually dominating everyone is great, a sight to be seen, but what sort of advantages, circumstances and such most be involved in order for Force Users to give Vader a run for his money?

Those cyborgs were a good opportunity; someone who has the ability to affect his cybernetics ala an Skotia.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how you're struggling to get out of the corner you've backed yourself into. I have no idea how DP has so many issues with a sub-carthage level troll. You said said can not means the same thing as can. I see why you don't normally debate and try to insult instead. You're really, really, really, really bad at it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Vader is just another boring mary sue in the making. Disney will ruin Star Wars.
Lol a Mary Sue? Anakin/Darth Vader is arguably the greatest, most complex character created in the SW universe

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Vader is just another boring mary sue in the making. Disney will ruin Star Wars.
Hm?

Problem is, whenever he struggles, people sometimes write him as being terrible because these Jedi he fights are 'nothing' compared to....the actual characters we know.

It doesn't help that Vader is in an era where he isn't surrounded by a ton of Force Users, compared to every other era(mostly) and said Force Users aren't as well known.

Hey ant...

Bart attack

AYEEE LMFAO.

What restaurant was that?

Not even a restaurant. Just a snack lodge. I should have bought the Bart attack.

Personally, Darth Vader is what these "enforcer" types should have been, Sion(ik ik top kek), Malak, Kun, Malgus, Maul, Grievous, etc.

Like Sas said, the androids could have been interesting what with their ****ing interesting tech. General Karbin...eh...less so but whatever. I think one way he would struggle is through fighting an already established character(Ahsoka) or perhaps having some circumstance **** him up(TFU2 comes to mind)

But other than that, idk if some nobody could challenge him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Vader is just another boring mary sue in the making. Disney will ruin Star Wars. Cringe.

Not to defend Legend or anything, but I don't think he's saying that Vader is a mary sue, but that he's becoming one. He's being treated like the ultimate badass atm.

Well there's not really many characters yet, as far as big villains go in the OT era. There's all of 3/4(4 if you count Sidious) that are actually doing stuff.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not to defend Legend or anything, but I don't think he's saying that Vader is a mary sue, but that he's becoming one. He's being treated like the ultimate badass atm.

??? That's what he was always intended to be. In the movies he was this evil, intimidating, unstoppable enforcer on the surface before Luke peeled back his layers (physically and metaphorically) revealing the sick, sad man we now know was underneath. But these stories feature him before that, when he was really a frightening adversary the Rebels had no idea how to face. The ultimate hero turned villain.

Besides, we all know the real reason LeGenD is pissed is because he wants Disney to create the Ancient Sith as powerful badasses, but can't do that if Vader is remotely close to Sidious, something LeGenD has brought up in several threads since Vader Down.

Hm Fresh? Why wouldn't they be able to create the AS as powerful if Vader is close to Sidious?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not to defend Legend or anything, but I don't think he's saying that Vader is a mary sue, but that he's becoming one. He's being treated like the ultimate badass atm. That's because he is, dear. That doesn't make him a Mary Sue, that makes him the main antagonist.

Regardless this is laughable, you b1tch and moan that they are ruining the villain when he gets beaten, but when he doesn't he's a Mary Sue? Make up your ****ing mind lmao.

Why are you asking me when I said this was LeGenD's reasoning?

Making Vader the Ultimate Bad Ass is one of the things Disney has done right actually.

And I think Legends might need to look up what being a Mary Sue means. Because Vader doesn't fit that even if we ignore his gender.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why are you asking me when I said this was LeGenD's reasoning?

/Shrug

Figured he would have said something or whatever.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
??? That's what he was always intended to be. In the movies he was this evil, intimidating, unstoppable enforcer on the surface before Luke peeled back his layers (physically and metaphorically) revealing the sick, sad man we now know was underneath. But these stories feature him before that, when he was really a frightening adversary the Rebels had no idea how to face. The ultimate hero turned villain.

Meh. I never saw him that way. In ANH Kenobi lets him win and then he gets punked by Han. In ESB we see his gross scarred head and learn he's Lukes dad. And then RotJ. He seemed threatening but like you said, underneath he's a pathetic cripple.

Maybe its because I just hate Anakin enough that its ruined the entire character for me, but I really dislike how Vader gets glorified in materials. I guess I just can't find him cool and likeable anymore. He isn't cool, he's a bastard who killed children and then got crippled like a little b*tch and spent the rest of his life grovelling at Sidious' robes like the pathetic spineless worm that he is. I just can't root for the guy and enjoy him doing cool stuff. I want to see him get wrecked, not wreck shit up.

I like Vader as a character, I even have one of those lame/cool pose-able figures on my desk on him. But I can't find him awesome anymore.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's because he is, dear. That doesn't make him a Mary Sue, that makes him the main antagonist.

Regardless this is laughable, you b1tch and moan that they are ruining the villain when he gets beaten, but when he doesn't he's a Mary Sue? Make up your ****ing mind lmao.

Sidious is the main antagonist, Vader is the tragic fallen hero who turns good at the end.

I didn't ***** and moan, I thought Maul getting punked was amazing and hilarious and completely what the wretched scum deserves.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious is the main antagonist, Vader is the tragic fallen hero who turns good at the end.

I didn't ***** and moan, I thought Maul getting punked was amazing and hilarious and completely what the wretched scum deserves. Sidious is the Big Bad, that doesn't make him the main antagonist, not with his screen time. No, Vader is the Heavy and therefore absolutely the main villain of the OT.

Well that's nice, but you probably moaned about Grievous or something, you seem like a whiney person in general.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't ***** and moan, I thought Maul getting punked was amazing and hilarious and completely what the wretched scum deserves. Eh, I don't see anyone else doing so hot were they also raised from infancy by the most evil Sith in history, forced to live a life of pure misery and discipline. Defining what someone "deserves" is just subjective bitching, IMO. The cards are dealt before anyone has a chance to do much about them.

Neph's personal disdain for fictional characters is cute tbh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sidious is the Big Bad, that doesn't make him the main antagonist, not with his screen time. No, Vader is the Heavy and therefore absolutely the main villain of the OT.

Well that's nice, but you probably moaned about Grievous or something, you seem like a whiney person in general.

Yuck, tvtropes. Nothing you said necessitates him being an ultimate badass. He isn't, which is why he gets totally punked at the end of ANH.

Meh, thats pretty different. GG was introduced as a badass who wrecked Jedi and then downgraded to clown. Going from the shit to just shit legit weakens him as a villain. And we don't really see him do anything that evil that makes me hate him enough to want to see him lose. With Vader he was introduced pretty conservatively and then they keep trying to make him cooler and badassier which I think misses the point of the character. Obviously I'm not saying have him constantly lose or become weak, I just find the constant glorifications to be distasteful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yuck, tvtropes. Nothing you said necessitates him being an ultimate badass. He isn't, which is why he gets totally punked at the end of ANH.Yup, its called common sense, and no, he did not.

Really the idea that the main antagonist of the OT could be the guy who wasn't even in the first film, barely made an appearance in ESB and is practically non-existent in Rebels is ludicrous.

Evidently you are clueless when it comes to storytelling.
Vader was introduced conservatively? Lol, every scene he was in involved ruining someone's day. And his black armour, his bass tone, his heavy breathing, his ****ing theme tune, are clearly intended to evoke terror, awe and badassery. It being only until RotJ that we get to see his vulnerable side. You are the one who has misunderstood the character dear.

Rebels on the other hand plays him perfectly, as terrifying and powerful.

And what do you mean distasteful? Because he's done bad things? He's a villain lmao.

P.S. You just said you want him to get wrecked, rather than do his job, evidently you're just pissed off at the character.

>Vader pwns noobs in Rebels
>Neph mad because he ain't getting wrecked
>Vader gets wrecked in TFU
>Neph mad because the guy wrecking him is too good

>Neph gets mad

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yup, its called common sense, and no, he did not.

Really the idea that the main antagonist of the OT could be the guy who wasn't even in the first film, barely made an appearance in ESB and is practically non-existent in Rebels is ludicrous.

Evidently you are clueless when it comes to storytelling.

Hardly, the villain can be effective without getting masturbatory. However, thats largely irrelevant. My issue isn't really with Vader as a villain, its with Vader when he's treated like the protagonist and gets fellated to high heaven.

Not really. I consider Ozai to be the clear main villain of AtLA despite him having far less screentime than Zuko, Azula or whatshisname from season 1.

Not to mention that accounting for the PT, Sidious' role as the main antagonist of the movies is undeniable. Besides, Vader is arguably not even really the main villain in ANH and he's barely an antagonist in RotJ, where the conflict becomes saving him instead of defeating him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader was introduced conservatively? Lol, every scene he was in involved ruining someone's day. And his black armour, his bass tone, his heavy breathing, his ****ing theme tune, are clearly intended to evoke terror, awe and badassery. It being only until RotJ that we get to see his vulnerable side. You are the one who has misunderstood the character dear.

Rebels on the other hand plays him perfectly, as terrifying and powerful.

And what do you mean distasteful? Because he's done bad things? He's a villain lmao.

P.S. You just said you want him to get wrecked, rather than do his job, evidently you're just pissed off at the character.

Conservatively compared to him stomping everything around him, tossing out one-liners and having comics and books based around the premise that "Darth Vader is really cool". Like I said, I have no issue with him being threatening, cool and villainous. My problem comes when he's treated as too cool, like we're supposed to be rooting for him. And we see his vulnerable side in ESB.

I agree, Rebels did him perfectly. He was powerful, threatening and villainous. He served his role in the story exactly how he should.

Yes, and that's my point. He's the villain, not a character to build stories about how badass he is around and to follow around and see him murder innocent people. I don't find that fun.

P.S. Yeah, because he's a villain. You're supposed to want him to lose instead of the more heroic characters.

Regardless I don't know why we're debating this, its my opinion it's not right or wrong, lol. This is just something I don't like. I also don't like slasher movies where you root for the killer, go figure.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
>Vader pwns noobs in Rebels
>Neph mad because he ain't getting wrecked
>Vader gets wrecked in TFU
>Neph mad because the guy wrecking him is too good

I liked both of these things actually. Good try tho.

Villains can't have stories now?

no they are banned

Originally posted by Beniboybling
you b1tch and moan

Originally posted by Nephthys
no they are banned Let's see if anyone else can figure out the irony of this statement.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Making Vader the Ultimate Bad Ass is one of the things Disney has done right actually.

And I think Legends might need to look up what being a Mary Sue means. Because Vader doesn't fit that even if we ignore his gender. He isn't nor has he ever been the ultimate badass. He is your personal hero but he's had his fair share of pathetic moments in Star Wars canon. Hell in that rebel episode you misquote about him taking out an entire fleet he was beaten at the end by the rebels crew again. What makes this even worse is the resources at his disposal. He also was Darth Vader in the suit in a weak era with all the advantages at his disposal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hardly, the villain can be effective without getting masturbatory. However, thats largely irrelevant. My issue isn't really with Vader as a villain, its with Vader when he's treated like the protagonist and gets fellated to high heaven.I assume you are referring to the Vader comics, and other mediums where Vader is the main character. However for an apparent fan of the Bane trilogy, I find this laughable in the extreme.Substantiating your opinion with another opinion proves nothing, other than the fact you are probably doubly wrong. But then I don't know what "AtLA" is so...

Anyway is Sidious the main villain in an overarching sense? Sure. But that doesn't alter the storytelling of the OT in which yeah, Vader is the main villain, as in he is the main obstacle to the protagonist. Just like Kylo Ren is the main villain of TFA, not Snoke.

And no, Luke was trying to save Anakin from Vader, Vader still needed to be defeated, and was Luke's main obstacle in that regard, it was merely a question of how it was done.Huh? Vader pretty much stomped everything stompable to the OT, from Luke to Ozzel. And his best one-liners are from the OT as well, they are just continuing the tradition. So you're just whining about the comics then, or...?Have you read Darth Bane? You probably wouldn't like it.Some people do, I always want the villain to win.

But of course the more badass the villain the more rewarding the victory, so wrong again.No, no you're definitely wrong. There is also a difference between not liking something and thinking something has been done incorrectly.

Vader isn't even the villain, so he doesn't have to lose anything. He may be the villain for Rebels, but the only story that matters is the story of Star Wars itself, of which he is undoubtedly the tragic hero. He has to make it to the end, and that ending has to matter. Losing over and over again, like your name is Mauls, is not desired.

Vader lost many times and has been confined to a suit for decades. He lost his wife and his mother. He cried and sobbed over everything like a natural born pansy. Maul is twice the man Anakin crybaby Skywalker will ever be. He also flip flopped a lot. Weak. Vader's life is full of tragedy. Poor burned cripple that he was.

And everyone is literally twice the man Maul is

And four times the character.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And everyone is literally twice the man Maul is Nahhhhhhh. Maul survived worse than a little force lightning. Poor Vader.

https://youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg?t=4m33s

https://youtu.be/YZ_j3s5xj8I?t=3m15s

Whether or not Vader was meant to be "badass" isn't really open to interpretation.

Sure, in ANH, you have him being bossed around by Tarkin and sassed by Motti... but it's he, not Tarkin, who is consistently challenging and threatening the heroes {he predicts that Leia won't give up the location of the rebel base, he convinces Tarkin to put a homing beacon on the Falcon, and he nearly thwarts the raid on the Death Star while Tarkin postures}. And he shuts Motti up real quick.

ESB, which is considered the best and most definitive of all the Star Wars films, has Vader radiating badassery from start to finish.

From then on, he's been the definitive sci-fi icon of badass villainy. It's there from the beginning.

You'll have to excuse my English homeboy: Neph hates anything that doesn't glorify Bane or SWTOR. You'll notice the schadenfreude with Maul, Vader, Dooku, etc. but he salivates whenever Bane or a SWTOR baddie does something badass.

'Strap was spot-on about the source of LeGenD's anger towards Vader. Neph's right there too. It's a deep-rooted bitterness over the fact that Vader will go down as a cultural icon whereas, in 10 years, no one will remember Vitiate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
'Strap was spot-on about the source of LeGenD's anger towards Vader. Neph's right there too. It's a deep-rooted bitterness over the fact that Vader will go down as a cultural icon whereas, in 10 years, no one will remember Vitiate.

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/93477/4183413-9287224341-tsuna.gif

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And four times the character. Quit being crazy. Vader sucks unless you like momma's boys who cry all the time and pout.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But then I don't know what "AtLA" is so...

this conversation is over you disgust me

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Whether or not Vader was meant to be "badass" isn't really open to interpretation.

Sure, in ANH, you have him being bossed around by Tarkin and sassed by Motti... but it's he, not Tarkin, who is consistently challenging and threatening the heroes {he predicts that Leia won't give up the location of the rebel base, he convinces Tarkin to put a homing beacon on the Falcon, and he nearly thwarts the raid on the Death Star while Tarkin postures}. And he shuts Motti up real quick.

ESB, which is considered the best and most definitive of all the Star Wars films, has Vader radiating badassery from start to finish.

From then on, he's been the definitive sci-fi icon of badass villainy. It's there from the beginning.

You'll have to excuse my English homeboy: Neph hates anything that doesn't glorify Bane or SWTOR. You'll notice the schadenfreude with Maul, Vader, Dooku, etc. but he salivates whenever Bane or a SWTOR baddie does something badass.

'Strap was spot-on about the source of LeGenD's anger towards Vader. Neph's right there too. It's a deep-rooted bitterness over the fact that Vader will go down as a cultural icon whereas, in 10 years, no one will remember Vitiate.

It's not as if Vitiate has any character to like, anyway.

Valkorion's a different story, but indeed, he'll never be anywhere near the cultural icon that Vader is.

The entire concept of a Star Wars god emperor other than Sheev is lame af but IF they were going to do it, Valky was the way to go from day 1. But there are too many other, richer alternative paths.

But yeah, no SWTOR character amounts to anything in comparison, honestly.

Valkorion would've been better if he wasn't just another of Vitiate's masks. Some sort of distant, third-party observer would've been great.