GM Luke and Darth Krayt (as of his team-up with Luke) vs Yoda and DE Sidious

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Jmanghan
Who takes this?

SunRazer
Yoda and Sidious, lol.

The one that Anakin beat was RotS Sidious, but nevertheless, they win.

Nephthys
Krayts easily the weakest here. He probably brings Luke down, despite Luke being the strongest on the field.

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Nephthys
Krayts easily the weakest here. He probably brings Luke down, despite Luke being the strongest on the field.
Maybe so but it's not like he can't contend. Luke would obviously engage Sidious first, leaving Yoda against Krayt which Yoda is not stomping.

Still Sidious and Yoda for a majority

Deronn_solo
Krayt drains Yoda, and Luke finishes Palpatine.

Team 1.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Maybe so but it's not like he can't contend. Luke would obviously engage Sidious first, leaving Yoda against Krayt which Yoda is not stomping.

Still Sidious and Yoda for a majority I think Luke can beat Sidous before Yoda can beat Krayt tbh.

Syndicate
Yoda and Sidious.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Nephthys
Krayts easily the weakest here. He probably brings Luke down, despite Luke being the strongest on the field.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Brings Luke down?...

They're on the same team...

Trocity
They mean because Luke is the strongest combatant on the field and Krayt the weakest, he kind of drags the team down.

Jmanghan
Krayt isn't getting stomped by anyone on Team 2, and I think he can last long enough against Yoda for Skywalker to get involved.

NTJack0
Krayt screws Luke over, Team 2 wins.

Unbowed
Originally posted by Nephthys
Krayts easily the weakest here. He probably brings Luke down, despite Luke being the strongest on the field.
That makes no sense seeing as how Krayt did better against Abeloth than Luke did and also recovered from the ordeal faster than Luke.

Q99
Hm, I honestly think it could go either way.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Unbowed
That makes no sense seeing as how Krayt did better against Abeloth than Luke did and also recovered from the ordeal faster than Luke.

No, he didn't. His injuries were less severe since Luke was fighting Abeloth most of the time. Krayt was using Drain and still ended up hurting himself.

Unbowed
He had almost the exact injuries as Luke, and he also lost a hand.

And while Luke grappled with Abeloth more(because his offensive arsenal was limited), Krayt's attacks/drain were the ones that did significant damage. The only time Luke does any real damage is right at the very end of the fight, when Abeloth is a hair's breath away from death.

At best you could say their contributions were equal, with Luke being the blocker to Krayt's running back, which is appropriate given their Light/Dark natures. But considering Krayt recovered faster and that at one point Luke mistakenly turned on Krayt and attacked him(and was about to do it a second time) I'd still give the slight edge to Krayt.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Q99
Hm, I honestly think it could go either way.

Deronn_solo
Yeah, I'm think I'm raising Krayt a bit, tbh. Like, maybe just a hair under Darth Plagueis - and close to TPM Sidious.

Nephthys
This isn't peak Krayt though. The Krayt in this thread is way weaker than his Reborn self.

Deronn_solo
This version of Krayt, arguably has superior feats to any other version of Krayt, tho.

Ziggystardust
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
This version of Krayt, arguably has superior feats to any other version of Krayt, tho.

That simply means his Reborn-self is just that powerful, and yes, we're almost certainly looking at someone who can hang with Sidious.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
This version of Krayt, arguably has superior feats to any other version of Krayt, tho. Yeah, but he wasn't amped or anything, so its safe to assume, at the very least, that he stayed just as powerful, we aren't talking about Ben Kenobi, who lets his skill go to waste over the years.

Nephthys
Well without his armor and his crippling illness he'd probably have been stronger than he would be in the flesh.

cs_zoltan
Krayt is in team 1 erm

Ziggystardust
This board would certainly be better off without his regular intrusions.

SunRazer
@Unbowed - Neither Krayt nor Luke did any serious damage until Abeloth's bodies in the wider galaxy were being vanquished, IIRC.

Unbowed
Since it was a battle of "Force essence" taking place in a metaphysical realm, the only way Abeloth, Luke or Krayt can be damaged was to lose said essence.

As such, injuries(on both sides) are highlighted when someone leaks essence or his essence is diminished. For instance:


The only significant thing Luke does before the very end is to grappling with her and running interference with Krayt, with one exception where it's mentioned he kicks her in the knee and her knee buckles.

Now here are Krayt's highlights:


Krayt's draining affects Luke(and Krayt himself) but it has an obvious impact on Abeloth. She weakens and begins to shudder.



BTW, here is Luke realizing that the best he can do is hold her down for Krayt to drain her, as per my statement:


Let's continue:

Here Krayt has his hand inside Abeloth's chest!. Also note that Abeloth is "writhing mass of Force energy that had gone limp". But it's obviously not because of Luke holding her down. It's Krayt's draining and him shoving his had in her chest.


Abeloth starts shrinking, obviously the fight is taxing her.

Now here is the best part:

Here Krayt does massive damage to Abeloth. Her Force essence is gushing out of her like a "geyser" or a "fountain" because Krayt's hand/stump is still in her chest and he's using to Force to rip it out. It's unclear if he's still draining her but it's described plainly: Abeloth is dying and is making a desperate last stand. Because of what Krayt did to her.

Now here is the finale, and the only place Luke shines:

It's Luke that delivers the final blow. What's fair is fair, while Krayt and Luke were both being attacked, Luke handled it better and able to counter attack and deliver the final blow. I'm not taking that away from him.

But also note that it was Krayt that Abeloth attacked first, in desperation, further supporting my assertion that it was him that drove Abeloth to the brink of death. Furthermore, while Luke delivered the final blow, not that Krayt it also described as clutching a handful of Abeloth's essence. While he was the main target of Abeloth's attack, he didn't pass out and was still able to put up with some resistance.

If I were an unreasonable/greedy man I would go further and state that the reason Luke was able to fight back is that Krayt bore the brunt of Abeloth's final attack, but it's hard to make an argument either way.
***

So there you have it. As I said, at best you could say that Luke and Krayt's contributions were equal, with Luke being the 'tank' and Krayt the 'DPS'. I personally think Krayt did better but I'm not willing to argue the point any more than I have.

Regardless, I think my point was made. When it comes to strength in the Force(and remember, this was a battle of pure Force essences) Krayt at the time of FOTJ is at least Luke's equal, and by powerscaling they should both be stronger than DE Sidious, who himself should be stronger than Yoda.

Even if you consider Krayt to be the least skilled in terms of lightsaber dueling(now that is an interesting debate) the assertion that he is a hindrance in this fight our not in the league of the others is laughable.

The_Tempest
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qBvs9wUZQZk/UPFCmGiHm5I/AAAAAAAAF4s/XYwWaHTgdag/s1600/willy-wonka-condescending.gif

Are you still trying to peddle this shit?

Luke is the one restraining Abeloth; Krayt's contributions are obviously important, but Luke is the one having to manage her. He's the one who goes to CQC first, trading wounds with Abeloth, before Krayt does the same. Then Krayt drains Luke and Abeloth, becoming "stronger" as she and Luke become "weaker." While restraining Abeloth, Luke floors Krayt and threatens to release her. Krayt is cowed and begins to drain less from Luke. {The text also notes that Krayt begins to continuously wail in agony from his wounds, whereas Luke takes it like a champ.} When Abeloth teleports away, Krayt continues to drain Luke and only redirects his attention back to Abeloth when Luke prepares to attack him in kind. When Abeloth returns, not only does Luke deliver the final blow, he's the last one standing: Krayt drops first.

Tl;dr: Luke is both the first to engage and the last man standing, despite being quite literally up in Abeloth's grill from start to finish and being constantly drained by of energy by Krayt. And you have the temerity to say that Krayt's an equal, let alone a superior?

Hilarious.

Beniboybling
smile

darthbane77
Probably team 2, only Reborn Krayt is up to par with Yoda in the slightest. Yoda or Sidious would slaughter Krayts, and even GM Luke isn't powerful enough to take on both DE Sidious AND Yoda, especially considering DE Sidious is pretty much GM Luke's equal.

Unbowed
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qBvs9wUZQZk/UPFCmGiHm5I/AAAAAAAAF4s/XYwWaHTgdag/s1600/willy-wonka-condescending.gif

Are you still trying to peddle this shit?

Luke is the one restraining Abeloth; Krayt's contributions are obviously important, but Luke is the one having to manage her. He's the one who goes to CQC first, trading wounds with Abeloth, before Krayt does the same. Then Krayt drains Luke and Abeloth, becoming "stronger" as she and Luke become "weaker." While restraining Abeloth, Luke floors Krayt and threatens to release her. Krayt is cowed and begins to drain less from Luke. {The text also notes that Krayt begins to continuously wail in agony from his wounds, whereas Luke takes it like a champ.} When Abeloth teleports away, Krayt continues to drain Luke and only redirects his attention back to Abeloth when Luke prepares to attack him in kind. When Abeloth returns, not only does Luke deliver the final blow, he's the last one standing: Krayt drops first.

Tl;dr: Luke is both the first to engage and the last man standing, despite being quite literally up in Abeloth's grill from start to finish and being constantly drained by of energy by Krayt. And you have the temerity to say that Krayt's an equal, let alone a superior?

Hilarious.
This is twisting and wiggling worthy of a reptile.

Oh, and Krayt wails in agony from his draining, not from anything Abeloth does to him. If anything it's Krayt who gets up faster than Luke at the end.

If you can't even get that much right you have the reading comprehension of a SJW.

DarthAnt66
Damn, Gideon, you gonna take that?

AncientPower
Yeh, it is Luke that can't take it, Mara encourages him saying he can, because Krayt is standing and taking it like a champ.

ares834
Originally posted by Unbowed
This is twisting and wiggling worthy of a reptile.

Oh, and Krayt wails in agony from his draining, not from anything Abeloth does to him. If anything it's Krayt who gets up faster than Luke at the end.

If you can't even get that much right you have the reading comprehension of a SJW.

What a response!

DarthAnt66
He's redefining the game itself.

Nai

Unbowed
Heh, fair enough.

Unbowed
Even so, his entire post relied on the narrative that Luke grappling with Abeloth is more significant, and that Krayt couldn't do it. That's a big misinterpretation, intentional or not.

Krayt can hang with Abeloth if he wants to:



The reason Luke tried to restrain/grapple her for Krayt to do his draining, as I mentioned in my original post, is because without a lightsaber his offensive arsenal is very limited.

Other than hand to hand combat, the only attack Luke uses against both Abeloth and Krayt is the "force blast". As you can see it's useless.

Luke himself realized this and that's why he committed to restrain her and urged Krayt it "pull harder" with his draining.

***

And as I stated before, Krayt's draining was the cause for him screaming in pain, not Abeloth's attacks.

As far as I can make it out, Krayt is in agony because he's draining Abeloth and her Force essence is very harmful/"toxic". The "shiny black" essence is probably hers, and it's oozing out of Krayt as he's draining her.

The_Tempest
Now that we've established that you have no business lecturing anyone on reading comprehension... Krayt can "hang" with Abeloth simply because Luke is there to restrain her. You have presented absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Luke was the one having to manhandle Abeloth from start to finish and was constantly leeched of energy by Krayt. He delivered the final blow. He was also the first to engage and last to fall. When Krayt attacked him, Luke put him on his ass while still restraining Abeloth. When Krayt continued to drain him after Abeloth escaped, he stopped when Luke prepared to defend himself.

Luke continued to lay in the lake after the battle, by his own admission, because he wanted to be reunited with Mara. He used his wounds as an excuse to justify it; Mara's response was that if Krayt can get up, so can Luke. (Which is in itself telling.)

So again, they're not equals, Luke was more impressive, and you're as full of shit now as you were when you first tried to peddle these bullshit ideas to innocent users from the ramshackle pedo-van that is your argument.

Let it go and accept Krayt's inferiority.

Deronn_solo
laughing out loud

Nephthys
Honestly the fact that Krayt is even comparable to Luke (I believe, by Luke himself at one point) is incredibly impressive for him imo.

The_Tempest
I don't think anyone here thinks Krayt is unimpressive.

Unbowed
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Now that we've established that you have no business lecturing anyone on reading comprehension... Krayt can "hang" with Abeloth simply because Luke is there to restrain her. You have presented absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise.
So the fact that Krayt engaged Abeloth hand to hand while she was struggling to throw him off is not evidence that he can engage Abeloth in hand to hand?

I could just as easily claim the reverse: that Luke was only able to hold on to Abeloth because Krayt's draining and later Krayt's hand inside her torso was more of a pressing concern. Even with Luke doing his best, he barely affected Abeloth at all before the very end. It was Krayt's draining her throughout the whole fight that weakened her to the point where she began shrinking and it was Krayt trying to pull his stump out of her torso that caused a "geyser" of Force essence to leak from her and brought her to the point of desperation and death?

When Abeloth is making her last stand, who does she attack? Krayt, not Luke. Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

And you haven't established shit. Nai noticed my mistake.

Originally posted by The_Tempest Luke was the one having to manhandle Abeloth from start to finish
Nice try there, but it was less "manhandling" and more "hanging on for dear life".

In your effort to diminish Krayt's performance you can't even make sense of the obvious: Krayt and Luke supported each other throughout the fight.

You're making it sound like Luke did all the hard work and Krayt just laid back and "leeched" but does your narrative stand up to scrutiny?

Surprise surprise, it doesn't. .
Just as Luke is blinded by pain and helpless, Krayt gets in close and picks up the slack(and actually does real damage). That quote above makes a mockery of your entire argument. Luke isn't "manhandling" and Krayt isn't sitting back and "leeching".

Yes, he was. That was the nature of Krayt's technique, and it did as much harm to him as it did Luke:
Next.

Eh, no. Abeloth was the first to engage. The fight opens with her lightning passing through Krayt and bringing Luke to his knees(hmm, a better durability feat for Krayt?). When we next see the fight Luke and Krayt are already wounded and they had been hurling Force attacks at her. We don't know what happened in the interlude.
By literally moments. So what? Krayt was the first to get up, and he did it without any gentle babytalk from his lover.
Again, Krayt didn't betray Luke. Luke himself realizes it later. If anything this shows how shortsighted Luke is. if Krayt really wanted to betray him he'd have stuck his hand in Luke's chest the same way he did it to Abeloth.

And Luke's kick does exactly jack shit to Krayt anyway, the same way it did jack shit against Abeloth.

No, Luke stopped when Krayt pointed to Abeloth to show that she's still alive. That's the second time the pot called the kettle black, by the way. Luke thought Krayt turned on him without even making sure Abeloth was dead, so he attacks Krayt... without even making sure Abeloth was dead.laughing out loud

Originally posted by The_Tempest Luke continued to lay in the lake after the battle, by his own admission, because he wanted to be reunited with Mara. He used his wounds as an excuse to justify it;Right, so what you're saying it was Luke's mental weakness that made him almost surrender to death. Your point is noted.
I guess it's true. Some people have the grit to keep going no matter what and some need a stern talking to from wifey.
.
It is indeed telling. Telling that Mara knows Luke is strong and cares for him. That's just the kind of thing people say. "Your brother can study and still work a part time job, why can't you?".

Only someone as desperate as you would take Mara's statement as a direct comparison between Luke and Krayt.

Originally posted by The_Tempest So again, they're not equals, Luke was more impressive, and you're as full of shit now as you were when you first tried to peddle these bullshit ideas to innocent users from the ramshackle pedo-van that is your argument.

This is second time you act like you have some familiarity or history with me, but I don't know who the **** you are.

Deronn_solo
laughing out loud

Beniboybling
I read the passage and Temp's assessment strikes me as more accurate. But to be quite honest, there is no real means of comparing Luke and Krayt unless you have evidence that suggests Krayt would be capable of manhandling Abeloth as Luke did.

Arguing Krayt is better because he did more damage is also pretty ****ing stupid considering the only reason he was in a position to was because Luke was holding him down, who could hardly attack himself when he's holding on to Abeloth for dear life. erm

Unbowed
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I read the passage and Temp's assessment strikes me as more accurate. But to be quite honest, there is no real means of comparing Luke and Krayt unless you have evidence that suggests Krayt would be capable of manhandling Abeloth as Luke did.

Arguing Krayt is better because he did more damage is also pretty ****ing stupid considering the only reason he was in a position to was because Luke was holding him down, who could hardly attack himself when he's holding on to Abeloth for dear life. erm
Again, what qualifies as manhandling?

Here's a summary of the fight without wall of text quotes:


-Abeloth hits them both with lightning

*cut to another scene*

-After Krayt and Luke had been hurling Force attacks for an eternity, Abeloth finally stumbles

-Luke closes in and starts fighting hand to hand. He slips in behind her and is hit by a tentacle in the right eye

-Krayt steps in and shoves his fingers "deep into the pit of Abeloth's stomach". A black spray errupts and Abeloth writhes in pain.

-Abeloth Force blasts Krayt but Krayt holds on to her. So does Luke. All three go tumbling across the lake.

-Luke starts to feel Krayt's draing but doesn't know what it is. Krayt brings them all the a halt and Luke realizes Krayt is draining them.

-Luke kicks Krayt in the knee and Krayt stumbles back.(notice it's because of Luke that Krayt disengages, not because he sat back in fear of Abeloth like Tempest suggests).

-Abeloth slips a tentacle around Luke's throat. Krayt continues his drain untill he screams in pain.

-Abeloth struggles to break free, Luke holds on, urges Krayt to resume his draining.

*cut to another scene*

-Luke still holds on to Abeloth and Krayt also has her hand in her chest. All three of them are tumbling down across the lake again

-Luke grinds them to a halt and Abeloth disappears, Krayt's hand still in her(severed from his wrist).

-Krayt is hanging in the air(nice, levitation feat for Krayt) draining Luke and Luke readies a Force blast. Before he attacks, Krayt points to Abeloth across the lake.

-Krayt uses the Force to draw his severed hand back and a fountain of Force energy erupts from Abeloth. Luke notices Abeloth is dying and desperate and readies for her final attack

-Abeloth desperately lashes at Krayt with her tentacles. Luke jumps in and gets the same treatment. He perseveres and finishes her off with an elbow to the head.

That's it.

Other than dealing the final blow, I just don't see what Luke does that is so impressive. And I honestly don't see how anyone can say he manhandled her and Krayt sat back.

Whenever Luke is grappling with Abeloth Krayt is also there with his hand in her chest. On two separate occasions Luke and Krayt are both holding on to Abeloth as they're tumbling down the lake. The only exception is when Luke himself kicks Krayt in the knee.

At the beginning when Abeloth blinds Luke with her tentacle, Krayt jumps in to help. At the end when Abeloth stabs Krayt with her tentacles, Luke jumps in to help.

Where exactly does the notion that Luke "did all the hard work" come from? I just don't see it. It was Krayt's draining that weakened her and Krayt's hand in her chest/stomach on two separate occasions had her Force essence spraying like a fire hydrant had brought her to the point of death.

Maybe in a fight in the physical Galaxy with lightsabers Luke can beat Krayt, I don't know. But I stand by my original point: in this fight against Abeloth that happened in a metaphysical place and where only strength in the Force matters, Krayt performed at least as well as Luke, if not better.

Unbowed
And here's another point to consider: when Luke gets close to Abeloth without Krayt, he gets hurt. When Abeloth gets close to Krayt and Luke isn't there, Krayt gets hurt.

Neither of them can handle Abeloth at close range without the other's support, despite what The_Tempest claims.

The only possible instance that can be interpreted as supporting his argument is this one:

I suspect this is the entire basis for his entire flawed argument, but keep two things in mind:

1)Abeloth tries to sink her fangs into Luke's arm... or the stranger's! That means Krayt is also as close to Abeloth as Luke is, and not sitting back at a distance
2)In the next scene Krayt's hand is again inside Abeloth's chest as all three of them are tumbling down, further dismissing the notion that Krayt sat back and Luke did all the heavy lifting.

The_Tempest
https://i.imgur.com/Q2BmE.gif

It's amazing: even though you took the time to parse through my posts, you never really addressed the things I said.

I suggest you take some time to cool off, perhaps even remove your face from Krayt's armored crotch, and instead of reading into my words, just read them.

I never claimed Luke dealt Abeloth more damage than did Krayt, I never claimed Krayt's contributions weren't important, and I never claimed that the two didn't support each other.

Beni seems to grasp the truth well enough, not sure why you don't.

And I can't even begin to describe how big of a misfire it is for you to insult Luke in an attempt to upset me. haermm

I'm a Sheevite, my child.

Edit: This isn't the first time we've been through this shit. You bowed, you bent, you broke.

Nai
Originally posted by Unbowed
Even so, his entire post relied on the narrative that Luke grappling with Abeloth is more significant, and that Krayt couldn't do it. That's a big misinterpretation, intentional or not.


Actually, his entire post relies on the fact, that Krayt is not only draining Abeloth but is draining Luke, too. Which leads to a situation in which Krayt constantly gets stronger while Luke gets weaker. This while Luke, to utilize RPG terms, does "tank" Abeloth the entire time, while Krayt plays "damage dealer".

In short: Tempest is correct, and you are wrong. And when I say Tempest is correct, you can be assured that he is.

And as far as this match is concerned: Luke can take Sidious, Yoda can take Krayt. Both won't be fast fights. So it just depends on which Sith screws up first.

Unbowed
Originally posted by The_Tempest
https://i.imgur.com/Q2BmE.gif

It's amazing: even though you took the time to parse through my posts, you never really addressed the things I said.

I suggest you take some time to cool off, perhaps even remove your face from Krayt's armored crotch, and instead of reading into my words, just read them.

I never claimed Luke dealt Abeloth more damage than did Krayt, I never claimed Krayt's contributions weren't important, and I never claimed that the two didn't support each other.

Beni seems to grasp the truth well enough, not sure why you don't.

And I can't even begin to describe how big of a misfire it is for you to insult Luke in an attempt to upset me. haermm

I'm a Sheevite, my child.

Edit: This isn't the first time we've been through this shit. You bowed, you bent, you broke.
Right. Resorting to schoolyard insults and condescension. What a master debater your turned out to be. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Originally posted by Nai
Actually, his entire post relies on the fact, that Krayt is not only draining Abeloth but is draining Luke, too. Which leads to a situation in which Krayt constantly gets stronger while Luke gets weaker. This while Luke, to utilize RPG terms, does "tank" Abeloth the entire time, while Krayt plays "damage dealer".

That is simply overstating the case, just like Luke manhandling Abeloth was overstating the case. Let's look at things closely.

So Luke feels "an icy twinge" and realizes Krayt is using a draining technique, but no mention of him growing weaker anything else. It is mentioned that Abeloth was growing weaker however.

Luke realizes he's wrong, and more importantly, Krayt is sustaining as much damage from the draining as is Luke. Is Krayt also draining himself? That doesn't make any sense. It's simply the nature of Krayt's technique.

This further supports my point. When Luke realizes Krayt isn't betraying him he urges Krayt to resume his draining.

This is the part of Krayt does drain Luke, yes. It's undeniable. But Abeloth isn't there and Luke isn't fighting her.

So yes, while Krayt did turn his draining towards Luke at one point, the notion that he constantly grew stronger while Luke was simultaneously fighting Abeloth is incorrect.

If that is The_Tempest's argument then it's unsurprising to me he's wrong. He took Luke desperately trying to hold on to Abeloth(and doing a poor job of it when Krayt wasn't there to back him up) as "manhandling" and he misinterpreted Krayt draining Luke once, when they were alone, as Krayt draining Luke throughout the whole fight and Luke "manhandling" Abeloth while having to put up with Krayt's draining too.

In short, both are incorrect. And I suspect he knew it but still twisted what actually happened to make his narrative.

So how was Luke superior again?


Thanks, but whenever possible I prefer to rely on my own judgements over the pronouncements of others.

Cue in smart aleck reply about my judgement being wrong. smile

DarthAnt66
Your judgement is wrong. thumb up

Q99
Unbowed's arguments in that post look pretty solid to me.

The Ellimist
This debate was massively entertaining.

SunRazer
Stupidity rides the thin line between cancer and entertainment.

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