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Yoda realises that as the most powerful Jedi ever turned Sith, Kenobi cannot possibly stand against him, and instead goes to fight him himself. Who wins? Battle takes place on Mustafar.

Bonus Round: Kenobi vs Darth Sidious

Yoda wins.

Sidious stomps, but its not a hopeless stomp, hell, Kenobi could take some wins if it stays Sabers only.

Anakin cannot be stopped by the likes of Yoda. It'll take a being far younger and more powerful.

The Anakin brigade failing pretty hard, kek.

I like how you had to use RotS Vader instead of RotS Anakin. You people are getting sadder by the day.

Nah.

Some of you guys claim Knigtfall Vader is his peak, lal.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Sidious stomps, but its not a hopeless stomp, hell, Kenobi could take some wins if it stays Sabers only.
mmm

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Yoda wins.

Sidious stomps, but its not a hopeless stomp, hell, Kenobi could take some wins if it stays Sabers only.

How exactly would it "stay a sabers only", iyo?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yoda realises that as the most powerful Jedi ever turned Sith, Kenobi cannot possibly stand against him, and instead goes to fight him himself. Who wins? Battle takes place on Mustafar.




Jeez Beni, at least make it "Sabers only"

Yoda stomps.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Sidious stomps, but its not a hopeless stomp, hell, Kenobi could take some wins if it stays Sabers only.

No, it would be a hopeless stomp.

What if Anakin's had his porridge in the morning?

Depends if it had raisins or not.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nah.

Some of you guys claim Knigtfall Vader is his peak, lal.
Except we're told it isn't.

It is according to the Databank.

It's like you're allergic to context.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda stomps.



No, it would be a hopeless stomp. Kenobi is comparable to Mace in sabers.

Its not bad ABC Logic, its... logical ABC Logic.

Kenobi isn't below Mace by a wide margin in terms of sabers.

He's probably the best duelist on the High Council barring Mace, Anakin, and Yoda.

Yoda easily beats an emotionally screwed up Vader.

Sidious vs Obi-Wan is just lol.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Kenobi is comparable to Mace in sabers.

Kenobi isn't below Mace by a wide margin in terms of sabers.




Where do you get that idea from? Last time I checked he was outmatched by Count Dooku just in Sabers, and on par with Maul.


Originally posted by Jmanghan


He's probably the best duelist on the High Council barring Mace, Anakin, and Yoda.

Just because he's the 4th best, doesn't mean there's not a large gap between him and the 3rd best.

Probably? What other competition does he have?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Where do you get that idea from? Last time I checked he was outmatched by Count Dooku.




Just because he's the 4th best, doesn't mean there's not a large gap between him and the 3rd best.

And Dooku is > Mace without Vaapad.

Well Mace is > Dooku without Makashi too.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Probably? What other competition does he have?


You forgotten how Plo Koon and Shaak Ti are equal to Obi-Wan and Anakin

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well Mace is > Dooku without Makashi too. ...Vaapad is exclusive and isn't exactly a saber form, its a state of mind that allows Mace to channel his opponents anger and use it against them.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
...Vaapad is exclusive and isn't exactly a saber form,

Actually, it is.

Take away the superconducting loop and Windu's still>Dooku

Nah.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Actually, it is. In what way?

A saber form is based around the moveset and stances it carries along with it, and each one has distinctions, but there are no "moves" involved with Vaapad, it branches from Juyo, and creates a superconducting loop that allows the user to channel the anger of their opponent and use it to their advantage. Thats it. Which is why its more of a focused state of mind.

So no, it isn't a saber form.

For example, Ataru is filled with acrobatics, and takes a lot of physicality to pull off, whereas Soresu can be a safe and effective choice for Jedi and Sith who want long-lasting skills a duelist, as it relies on defensive maneuvers and tactics, as opposed to taking the offensive.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Take away the superconducting loop and Windu's still>Dooku

Originally posted by Jmanghan
In what way?

A saber form is based around the moveset and stances it carries along with it, and each one has distinctions, but there are no "moves" involved with Vaapad, it branches from Juyo, and creates a superconducting loop that allows the user to channel the anger of their opponent and use it to their advantage. Thats it. Which is why its more of a focused state of mind.

So no, it isn't a saber form.

For example, Ataru is filled with acrobatics, and takes a lot of physicality to pull off, whereas Soresu can be a safe and effective choice for Jedi and Sith who want long-lasting skills a duelist, as it relies on defensive maneuvers and tactics, as opposed to taking the offensive.

Vaapad is called the perfection of Juyo, which was, before the invention of Vaapad an "incomplete form". And there is some comic where Quinlan Vos utilizes Vaapad against Mace and Mace recognizes this (of course) because of the movement patterns. So, apparently, Vaapad is a lightsaber form.

You're right in a sense, though. It is not only a lightsaber form, but features stuff that goes beyond mere fencing movements. But the same, as I see it, is true for all other lightsaber forms as well.

What's your thoughts on this matchup Nai, if Anakin decides to win will he?

You know the Anakin Deniers are ****ed when Beni, DC, Neph, and Syndicate are its main supporters.

Please dear, if you're going to give us a name let it be common sense, of which there are many advocates.

Beni reaches for the trophy but falls into the pit of cringe yet again.

You know the Anakin supporters are ****ed when Ant, Ancient Power and Chingwalla are its only supporters and Ant's desperate enough to try Ad Hominem attacks.

Not to mention the fact that the majority of forum thinks your Anakin = Yoda stance is legit retarded.

NewGuy01, myself, FreshestSlice, and AncientPower vs Nephthys, Beniboybling, you, and Deronn_solo.

The Anakin Brigade will take our chances when I could solo.

Dick measuring contest aside, who takes this Ant?

Is this Knightfall Anakin or Mustafar Anakin?

Mustafar, after a full English breakfast.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
NewGuy01, myself, FreshestSlice, and AncientPower vs Nephthys, Beniboybling, you, and Deronn_solo.

The Anakin Brigade will take our chances when I could solo.

You couldn't solo Chingwalla.

Regardless NewGuy and Freshest have already expressed their disdain at threads like these.

Originally posted by Syndicate
You couldn't solo Chingwalla.
Right.


Yeah, so have I. Pitting Mustafar Anakin against Yoda is retarded.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Right.


Yeah, so have I. Pitting Mustafar Anakin against Yoda is retarded.

Honestly with the kind of reasoning you've been using to support your causes lately it's not too far from the truth.

No I mean even "Peak" Anakin vs Sidious/Yoda/multiple high tiers/etc. is something that they don't support. If you count them as supporters of your cause you must not hold them to the same standard as yourself or Ancient Power.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Honestly with the kind of reasoning you've been using to support your causes lately it's not too far from the truth.
Someone seems upset, lmfao.


I don't think Skywalker can take Yoda, Palpatine, or Valkorion either.

Get with the program.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What's your thoughts on this matchup Nai, if Anakin decides to win will he?

Probably not.

The problem with Anakin (or "Zonakin" or "Nightfall Vader" or whatever) and this particular description is, that it's a narrator presenting us the inner mechanisms or thoughts of Anakin. Anakin in RotS wasn't that far away from Dooku in terms of lightsaber skill and the combination of calmness and use of the dark side did just give him the edge he needed to defeat the Sith Lord. Anakin himself just perceives this with more grandeur and his nuclear furnace heart bla bla.

Had Dooku not taunted Anakin and if he hadn't been specifically ordered to lose that fight, he would still have won it by superior command of the Force, a discipline in which Anakin is certainly far behind him, dark side using or not. All his rage and "deciding to win" wouldn't have helped him against a nice barrage of force lightning or some telekinetic attack.

That being said: Yoda is just too good for Anakin. With the Force he would demolish Anakin with ease. It wouldn't even be a contest. If you make this sabers only, Anakin potentially has a chance of winning this by surviving long enough until Yoda gets tired. But this probably wouldn't work either, at least not in a majority of fights between those two. Yoda is just too good in terms of technical ability and too powerful in terms of force augmentation.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66 Someone seems upset, lmfao.


I don't think Skywalker can take Yoda, Palpatine, or Valkorion either.

Get with the program.

It seems that way given your rhetoric.

Originally posted by Syndicate
You know the Anakin supporters are ****ed when Ant, Ancient Power and Chingwalla are its only supporters and Ant's desperate enough to try Ad Hominem attacks.

Originally posted by Nai
Probably not.

The problem with Anakin (or "Zonakin" or "Nightfall Vader" or whatever) and this particular description is, that it's a narrator presenting us the inner mechanisms or thoughts of Anakin. Anakin in RotS wasn't that far away from Dooku in terms of lightsaber skill and the combination of calmness and use of the dark side did just give him the edge he needed to defeat the Sith Lord. Anakin himself just perceives this with more grandeur and his nuclear furnace heart bla bla.

Had Dooku not taunted Anakin and if he hadn't been specifically ordered to lose that fight, he would still have won it by superior command of the Force, a discipline in which Anakin is certainly far behind him, dark side using or not. All his rage and "deciding to win" wouldn't have helped him against a nice barrage of force lightning or some telekinetic attack.

That being said: Yoda is just too good for Anakin. With the Force he would demolish Anakin with ease. It wouldn't even be a contest. If you make this sabers only, Anakin potentially has a chance of winning this by surviving long enough until Yoda gets tired. But this probably wouldn't work either, at least not in a majority of fights between those two. Yoda is just too good in terms of technical ability and too powerful in terms of force augmentation. Mmm, nice assessment.

Wait, why are you dick-face phuckers, lumping me in some sort of anti-brigade?

I'm only here to troll and shit post. Keep me out of your petty forum squabbles.

Originally posted by Syndicate
You know the Anakin supporters are ****ed when Ant, Ancient Power and Chingwalla are its only supporters and Ant's desperate enough to try Ad Hominem attacks.

To my knowledge, chingchang hasn't voiced support for Ant or Anakin, and Ant resorting to ad hominems isn't exactly something he's historically needed to be desperate to do.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Regardless NewGuy and Freshest have already expressed their disdain at threads like these.

Like these? Well sure, you could say I'm disdainful towards spite threads, but that doesn't really mean anything in any case.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
and Ant resorting to ad hominems isn't exactly something he's historically needed to be desperate to do.

Fair enough. Ant's tends to lash out and employ personal attacks against his opponents regardless of how unsupported his stances are.

>has direct quotes stating Anakin is a Yoda-level swordsmaster and the most powerful Jedi of the era
>"unsupported"

mmm

Yes. Unsupported. As in there's nothing that's supports the accuracy of those quotes.

Well, except for that time he dominated Count Dooku. mmm

Already been debated and pointed out countless times, a form advantage + a rage amp doesn't equate to Anakin in a normal state.

So, the writer and choreographer of all of the fight scenes in the prequels who personally came up with their fighting styles and skill levels isn't to be taken seriously?

Right.

Anakin didn't win just because of a form advantage Lol

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So, the writer and choreographer of all of the fight scenes in the prequels who personally came up with their fighting styles and skill levels isn't to be taken seriously?

Right.

That is right actually.

Like, this was solidly established over a decade ago. You're a bit late on the money here.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So, the writer and choreographer of all of the fight scenes in the prequels who personally came up with their fighting styles and skill levels isn't to be taken seriously?

Right.

If they're not supported by feats then I don't see why you would.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Anakin didn't win just because of a form advantage Lol

Of course not. He won because of a form advantage AND a rage amp.

It's supported by the feats when you open up your blindfold.

Except it's not. Nor the novel's actual text given it states that Makashi is specifically weak against the kinetic force that Djem So can generate and that Sidious is coaxing the rage inside of Anakin.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Of course not. He won because of a form advantage AND a rage amp.


Had absolutely nothing to do with a form advantage.

He had that same "form advantage" every time they fought. And he was usually pissed every time they fought as well.

Have any other excuses for Anakin winning/ Dooku losing?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's supported by the feats when you open up your blindfold.

No it isn't. Yoda or Sidious would destroy Anakin.

Originally posted by Syndicate
it states that Makashi is specifically weak against the kinetic force that Djem So can generate


No it doesn't. When will people stop repeating this BS? It's like you can't interpret a simple line.

Yoda wins.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Had absolutely nothing to do with a form advantage.

He had that same "form advantage" every time they fought. And he was usually pissed every time they fought as well.

Have any other excuses for Anakin winning/ Dooku losing?

Except the RotS novel mentions specifically that Dooku had no idea Anakin was a Form V practitioner until their fight. And Anakin as a Jedi does not draw on his rage in combat regardless of your head canon.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Had absolutely nothing to do with a form advantage.

He had that same "form advantage" every time they fought. And he was usually pissed every time they fought as well.

Have any other excuses for Anakin winning/ Dooku losing?

Please, if you're using the RotS novel as a basis for Anakin destroying Douku then you also need to accept that that same novel indicates Anakin was using Shien on their previous duels. Hence why Anakin surprises him with Djem So. So he didn't have the "form advantage" in their previous duels.

Dooku was fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan together at the start of the fight and needed to expend energy beating Obi-Wan. So theres that too.

And yet he had to expend even more energy blocking just one of Skywalker's strikes.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No it doesn't. When will people stop repeating this BS? It's like you can't interpret a simple line.

Yes it does.

"Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And yet he had to expend even more energy blocking just one of Skywalker's strikes.

Granted but there's also the fact that Dooku needs to focus partly on keeping an eye out for Kenobi when facing Skywalker.

And I think we all know how important having all your focus on your opponent in combat is.

"Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And yet he had to expend even more energy blocking just one of Skywalker's strikes.

And Savage ragdolled Dooku and Ventress, whats you point?

Also can I just ask if you're really serious about this? Do you actually believe Anakin is this level?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Savage ragdolled Dooku and Ventress, whats you point?
Uh, what's your point?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Granted but there's also the fact that Dooku needs to focus partly on keeping an eye out for Kenobi when facing Skywalker.

And I think we all know how important having all your focus on your opponent in combat is.

"Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions."
What? No he doesn't, lmfao. At least nothing of note.

And once Kenobi was KO'ed, he definitely didn't have to.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, what's your point?

People with crazy rage amps are a thing. That Anakin achieved a level he never did again is irrelevant.

And I mean, this is just assuming we take the novel description with way more credit than it deserves.

Yes and fortunately Palpatine teaches him to use his fear mid-combat, by then Dooku had already lost. Dooku's knowledge of the Force and combat experience meant absolutely nothing. He was utterly outmatched as soon as Anakin learnt that vital truth. When they'd killed Windu and Anakin was knighted Darth Vader, his mindset achieved a state where he could casually pick apart his emotions and stomp out his fear. Throughout Knightfall he casually slaughters some of the best swordsman in the Order.

It is only on Mustafar that he loses his edge as he experiences a dreadful forewarning of what will happen and he loses control of his fear from then on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
People with crazy rage amps are a thing. That Anakin achieved a level he never did again is irrelevant.

And I mean, this is just assuming we take the novel description with way more credit than it deserves.
It's a shame, then, that Anakin wasn't amped for most of the fight.

Hell, the text goes out of its way to even note that Anakin's rage is being held at bay.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So, the writer and choreographer of all of the fight scenes in the prequels who personally came up with their fighting styles and skill levels isn't to be taken seriously?

Right.

Right.

Have fun.

Short version: To interprete a text , you need to seperate it from its creator.

And in this particular case: I seriously doubt, that Nick Gillard was involved in the CGI fighting scenes, which means, literally, every single fight that Yoda was involved in. And we can extend that to the complete "Clone Wars" and "Rebels" series as well, which means Gillard was only involved in a small fraction of all lightsaber fights we've seen, that are needed to be taken into consideration for this thread.

Not that this is even an issue, as Yoda would casually destroy any version of RotS Anakin / Vader with the Force.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's a shame, then, that Anakin wasn't amped for most of the fight.

Hell, the text goes out of its way to even note that Anakin's rage is being held at bay.

Yeah, sure thing:

"There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury."

Just because he wasn't going supernova doesn't mean he wasn't using his rage. He blatantly was.

I notice you didn't answer my question, which tells me you have no confidence in your position and frankly who could blame you.

I love how you neglected the next line:

"Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread"

Go watch My Little Pony or something. The big boys are talking.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? No he doesn't, lmfao. At least nothing of note.

And once Kenobi was KO'ed, he definitely didn't have to.

So you're saying that Dooku doesn't have to be aware of whether Obi Wan is about to enter the fight or not? Sorry, going to have disagree there.

That's fine but Anakin was definitely not pressing his advantage as hard once it was a 1v1 even before Dooku employed Dun Moch on him. Here's the passage.

"Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood. He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long. Skywalker was a natural. There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it. This boy had the gift of fury. And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread. Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical. Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward."

Anakin is capable of driving Dooku back in a normal state where Dooku has no distractions and Anakin a form advantage but not the wholesale domination he demonstrated earlier when Dooku had to expend a part of his focus on watching out for Kenobi.

Good thing Knightfall Vader learns to use this constantly and destroys his emotional Achilles heel before he loses it on Mustafar. But you've obviously read the book, haven't you Neph.

@Syn, you're ignoring the part after Palpatine helps him use his emotions instead of being clouded by them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I love how you neglected the next line:

"Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread"

Go watch My Little Pony or something. The big boys are talking.

I said that he wasn't going supernova but he was clearly using his fury. Thats the whole point of the monologue.

"He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long."

Dooku's talking about why Anakin is going so hard and concludes that its because of his fury. Its something Anakin is already doing.

@Syndicate:

Using the Force to keep tabs on Kenobi wouldn't take a billionth of Dooku's overall power, lmfao.

Uh, no, he blatantly was.

There was no distinction.

---

You're literally trying to argue Dooku utilizing Force sense makes the difference between being a close opponent to Skywalker and being utterly outclassed.

Come on, dude. There's better arguments for the fight than that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I said that he wasn't going supernova but he was clearly using his fury. Thats the whole point of the monologue.

"He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long."

Dooku's talking about why Anakin is going so hard and concludes that its because of his fury. Its something Anakin is already doing.
No, the text makes note the fury is being held back. It's leaking through his Jedi barriers but not his uncontrolled dread.

Try again.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I love how you neglected the next line:

"Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread"

Go watch My Little Pony or something. The big boys are talking.

I love, how you people are reading the wrong chapter:

"This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame."
-RotS Novelization, Chapter 4: Jedi Trap.

'nuff said.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Good thing Knightfall Vader learns to use this constantly and destroys his rmotional Achilles heel before he loses it on Mustafar. But you've obviously read the book, haven't you Neph.

Yeah definitely, thats why he's an emotional mess the whole movie, spends the whole thing wrecked with fear over Padme, freaks out after the Palpatine reveal, gets his ass manipulated like a champ constantly, collapses after cutting off Windu's arm near tears, murders children and sobs like a baby on Mustafar.

Solid as a ****in' rock right there.

Originally posted by Nai
I love, how you people are reading the wrong chapter:

"This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame."
-RotS Novelization, Chapter 4: Jedi Trap.

'nuff said.

Uh, we are referring to Anakin in the previous chapter - not Zonakin.

Previous chapter Anakin was still utterly tearing Dooku apart.

Get with the program.

Get with the program, Nai.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, the text makes note the fury is being held back. It's leaking through his Jedi barriers but not his uncontrolled dread.

Try again.

Hence why I said it wasn't everything since some of it was still being held back but it was clearly still a significant factor. facepalm2

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Syndicate:

Using the Force to keep tabs on Kenobi wouldn't take a billionth of Dooku's overall power, lmfao.

Uh, no, he blatantly was.

There was no distinction.

---

You're literally trying to argue Dooku utilizing Force sense makes the difference between being a close opponent to Skywalker and being utterly outclassed.

Come on, dude. There's better arguments for the fight than that.

Given Anakin directing focus torwards inhibiting his rage altered his performance against Dooku to a large degree I'd imagine Dooku having to keep a part of his focus on Kenobi's location during the fight would affect him similarly. The text backs up my assertion by showing Dooku falling back but not in a desperate retreat against Skywalker.

Uh, no, he blatantly wasn't. Dooku even has time to come up with a strategy in an attempt to hinder Anakin. Given he was about to slip into unconsciousness whilst having leverage over Anakin by retreating up the stairs prior to their 1v1 I imagine it affected his performance greatly.

Given Anakin's performances dropped enormously after his focus was diverted I find it to be logical.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah definitely, thats why he's an emotional mess the whole movie, spends the whole thing wrecked with fear over Padme, freaks out after the Palpatine reveal, gets his ass manipulated like a champ constantly, collapses after cutting off Windu's arm near tears, murders children and sobs like a baby on Mustafar.

Solid as a ****in' rock right there.



Reading is fun. :up;

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, we are referring to Anakin in the previous chapter - not Zonakin.

Get with the program.

Anakin from the previous chapter is entirely irrelevant, as it is not post Zonakin-Anakin, who has gone to "zeh Zone" once and would probably be capable to go there once more (as he, probably, does in his "Knightfall"-incarnation). Which is still irrelevant completely, as Yoda would still destroy him.

Originally posted by Nai
Anakin from the previous chapter is entirely irrelevant, as it is not post Zonakin-Anakin, who has gone to "zeh Zone" once and would probably be capable to go there once more (as he, probably, does in his "Knightfall"-incarnation). Which is still irrelevant completely, as Yoda would still destroy him. Let's not act like Yoda is a beacon of success. Both are failures.

I can't help but wonder why ABC logic is unacceptable in most cases but OK for Anakin. mmm

Anakin >> Dooku < Yoda might make sense on paper but when you consider the Count's stylistic disadvantage, the fact he was fatigued and caught off-guard by Anakin's sudden burst of rage and the fact that a duel can be one or lost by a split-second misstep it becomes much less compelling.

Even less so when Dark Disciple shits all over it...
Evidently it doesn't take a great deal to put Dooku down, or are we assuming now that Vos is more powerful than Yoda too?

EDIT: And of course Nai is right, no matter how powerful combatively Anakin may be, Yoda would still destroy him in the Force.

Originally posted by Nai
Anakin from the previous chapter is entirely irrelevant, as it is not post Zonakin-Anakin, who has gone to "zeh Zone" once and would probably be capable to go there once more (as he, probably, does in his "Knightfall"-incarnation). Which is still irrelevant completely, as Yoda would still destroy him.

Lol, he goes there 'once more' landing the Invisible Hand, which should've been literally impossible, something Windu observes. Knowing only Anakin could've done so. Those events have Mace Windu believing that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi. Anakin goes there 'once more' throughout the entire temple raid and throughout slaughtering on Mustafar. He acknowledges his growth in power from the dark side. Then he experiences dread again, a sense of what was to come, that was his downfall. Nick Gillard extrapolates on that crucial mindset 'once more' himself.

Beni resorting to Christie Golden, ew.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Reading is fun. :up;

Literally 1 day later (in fact, its literally the very next Anakin section) he's sobbing like a baby. So your idea of a "permanent change" in him is literally just Knightfall. Where theres no narration or indication of Anakin's actually abilities. Wow, so compelling.

That doesn't even say what you want it to, like usual you're spectacularly terrible at interpreting sources and just assuming they agree with you. Theres no evidence he reached the level he did against Dooku afterwards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where theres no narration or indication of Anakin's actually abilities. Wow, so compelling..
Besides one-shotting Drallig.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Literally 1 day later (in fact, its literally the very next Anakin section) he's sobbing like a baby. So your idea of a "permanent change" in him is literally just Knightfall. Where theres no narration or indication of Anakin's actually abilities. Wow, so compelling.

That doesn't even say what you want it to, like usual you're spectacularly terrible at interpreting sources and just assuming they agree with you. Theres no evidence he reached the level he did against Dooku afterwards.

So your argument is 'no'? The text doesn't state he's casually observing and controlling his emotions and crushes the fear clouding his mind?

What a nice world of denial you love to live in.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Besides one-shotting Drallig.

Which he didn't do.

Besides, since when was Drallig remotely relevant.

He butchered him easily.

He was relevant when he was stated to be a greater swordsmaster than ROTS Shaak Ti and when Dooku states Grievous would be bent over like a school girl in a contest with him.

@DarthAnt: Yes, the strategy being to have battledroids fire on Anakin and Obi Wan to buy him time to take Obi Wan out of the equation so that he wouldn't have to expend a part of his focus on keeping track of when Kenobi was. The difference being that Dooku's retreat up the stairs actually had him on the brink of unconsciousness while Anakin and Dooku's 1v1 where Dooku did not have to keep track of Kenobi simply had Dooku falling back.

If Dooku was on the edge of unconsciousness during that period Anakin and Dooku were in a 1v1 after Kenobi had been taken out of the fight and before Anakin was coaxed into his rage then why wasn't he defeated sooner?

I'm not saying Dooku using force senses depleted his energies. I'm saying not being able to divert his full attention to dealing with Anakin was.

Exactly. Whenever Dooku lost track of either Anakin or Kenobi during the fight he always ended up in a position where he was being driven back which is why he would have been attempting to keep track of them some ways into the fight when he's realized the true extent of their capabilites. He's now fully aware of just how dangerous they are to him by themselves and he knows if he's caught unaware by one of them whilst being driven back by the other he has no chance.

As I said, Anakin diverting his focus to keeping his rage bottled up seemed to affect his performances greatly. Dooku being forced to do the same upon realizing Anakin and Obi Wan's capabilities would have weakened him in a similar manner and this is backed up by Dooku's retreat being far less desperate after Kenobi is taken out of the picture.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So your argument is 'no'? The text doesn't state he's casually observing and controlling his emotions and crushes the fear clouding his mind?

What a nice world of denial you love to live in.

My argument is that theres no proof of his achieving the same thing he did against Dooku again. Savage improved his mindset and abilities after the Dooku fight yet never again achieved anything remotely like what he did in that fight.

Do you have a rebuttal apart from accusing me of denial? You've done that like 6 times in 2 days. Get a new line, geez.


Of course, its a largely irrelevant point since the conversation and epiphany you posted isn't in the movie and is completely non-canon. Hows that for denial.

The two things you're trying to compare there aren't similar at all, Syn.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Beni resorting to Christie Golden, ew. You mean Canon friend, which as we know trumps your every argument.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You mean Canon friend, which as we know trumps your every argument.

Since basically none of the RotS novel is at all.


Pretty sure Zonakin isn't even canon in the slightest, lol.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The two things you're trying to compare there aren't similar at all, Syn.

Anakin focusing on keeping his rage bottled up and Dooku focusing on keeping track of Obi Wan's location in the fight both of which inhibiting their ability to fully focus on defeating their opponent?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Since basically none of the RotS novel is at all.


Pretty sure Zonakin isn't even canon in the slightest, lol. The Anakin brigade prefers Stover's fantasies to reality, yeah.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The two things you're trying to compare there aren't similar at all, Syn.


---

Syn, your argument also rests on the assumption they fought in the two respective instances for the same duration.

Using the movie fight as reference, Skywalker pushing Dooku to the brink of unconsciousness took over ten seconds, while later where he was "merely pushing him back" like you claim was literally just three.

If Skywalker fought Dooku for the same duration again, the same results would likely occur, given the fact that the only distinction isn't a distinction but rather you making shit up.

So, no.

Well, no, because denial is the fitting adjective for someone who is trying to laugh off a dozen quotes pointing in the opposite direction from his position.



Well, considering internal monologues are silent, that could very well be in the movie. The dialogue is slightly different, but that scene was in the movie, and that power boost is mentioned in the databanks' description of the movie version.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


---

Syn, your argument also rests on the assumption they fought in the two respective instances for the same duration.

Using the movie fight as reference, Skywalker pushing Dooku to the brink of unconsciousness took over ten seconds, while later where he was "merely pushing him back" like you claim was literally just three.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw

So, no.

I don't believe that to be the case.

The movie? The movie and novel are completely different occurrences. There's no moment where Anakin doubts himself and Sidious shouts encouragement. There's no way you can reconcile the novel and film to support your viewpoint or for me to support mine so why bother? Use one or the other. There's too many contradictions between the two to mesh it together like you're attempting.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


---

Syn, your argument also rests on the assumption they fought in the two respective instances for the same duration.

Using the movie fight as reference, Skywalker pushing Dooku to the brink of unconsciousness took over ten seconds, while later where he was "merely pushing him back" like you claim was literally just three.

If Skywalker fought Dooku for the same duration again, the same results would likely occur, given the fact that the only distinction isn't a distinction but rather you making shit up.

So, no.

Lmao trying to use the movie to back up the novels wildly different version of the fight

Honestly.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, considering internal monologues are silent, that could very well be in the movie. The dialogue is slightly different, but that scene was in the movie, and that power boost is mentioned in the databanks' description of the movie version.

It doesn't happen at all. Sidious never encourages Anakin on using his anger, they don't have anything resembling that conversation (lol, "slightly different"?) and Anakin never shows any sign of having an internal monologue in that scene to this effect at the point he does in the book.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I don't believe that to be the case.

The movie? The movie and novel are completely different occurrences. There's no moment where Anakin doubts himself and Sidious shouts encouragement. There's no way you can reconcile the novel and film to support your viewpoint or for me to support mine so why bother? Use one or the other. There's too many contradictions between the two to mesh it together like you're attempting.
Using the movie as reference holds more weight than your fanfiction theory that Dooku was using a lot of his power to keep tabs on Kenobi, which isn't stated in the book or even briefly mentioned. Hell, the book doesn't even make note of Dooku sensing Kenobi through the Force. Quite the contrary, actually. And quite frankly, the novel fight is rather consistent with the movie fight in terms of general flow: The duo fights Dooku -> Kenobi is pushed -> Anakin fights Dooku and pushes him back -> Kenobi kills the droids and attacks Dooku -> Dooku incapacitates Kenobi -> Anakin pushes back Dooku -> Dooku taunts Anakin -> Anakin kills Dooku.

Plus, the novel was based on the film anyway, so to say that using it as a reference isn't allowed is pretty laughable, especially considering, once again, you literally have nothing to use as a reference for your argument. Especially considering you like to mash together the novel, comic, and video-game version of the Marek vs Shaak Ti fight, but now don't want to do it here because it don't fit your retarded opinions.

So, find me a quote that states Dooku was keeping tabs on Kenobi through the Force, and then find me a quote that states doing such hindered Dooku considerably, and then a quote stating the two fights occurred for around the same duration, or jump off a cliff.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Using the movie as reference holds more weight than your fanfiction theory that Dooku was using a lot of his power to keep tabs on Kenobi, which isn't stated in the book or even briefly mentioned. Hell, the book doesn't even make note of Dooku sensing Kenobi through the Force. Quite the contrary, actually. And quite frankly, the novel fight is rather consistent with the movie fight in terms of general flow: The duo fights Dooku -> Kenobi is pushed -> Anakin fights Dooku and pushes him back -> Kenobi kills the droids and attacks Dooku -> Dooku incapacitates Kenobi -> Anakin pushes back Dooku -> Dooku taunts Anakin -> Anakin kills Dooku.

Plus, the novel was based on the film anyway, so to say that using it as a reference isn't allowed is pretty laughable, especially considering, once again, you literally have nothing to use as a reference for your argument.

I didn't say it was a lot of his power. I just noted that Anakin not focusing entirely on Dooku caused Dooku to gain the upper hand and Dooku doing the same so as not to be taken by surprise by Kenobi would have had a similar affect. I don't see why that is unreasonable to you.

It doesn't matter. The scene you're referencing is wholesale excluded from the movie fight therefore it can't be referenced to support your point in regards to that scene.

To use it as a reference for a scene that wasn't even included in the movie is laughable. I'm simply using logic to ascertain why Dooku would have performed a certain way which given the nature of debates is valid and reasonable. Sorry if you don't feel the same.

Edit: Just because you don't want to use logical inference doesn't mean I or others will forgo its use.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Using the movie as reference holds more weight than your fanfiction theory that Dooku was using a lot of his power to keep tabs on Kenobi, which isn't stated in the book or even briefly mentioned. Hell, the book doesn't even make note of Dooku sensing Kenobi through the Force. Quite the contrary, actually. And quite frankly, the novel fight is rather consistent with the movie fight in terms of general flow: The duo fights Dooku -> Kenobi is pushed -> Anakin fights Dooku and pushes him back -> Kenobi kills the droids and attacks Dooku -> Dooku incapacitates Kenobi -> Anakin pushes back Dooku -> Dooku taunts Anakin -> Anakin kills Dooku.

Plus, the novel was based on the film anyway, so to say that using it as a reference isn't allowed is pretty laughable, especially considering, once again, you literally have nothing to use as a reference for your argument. Especially considering you like to mash together the novel, comic, and video-game version of the Marek vs Shaak Ti fight, but now don't want to do it here because it don't fit your retarded opinions.

The novel was based on an out of date screenplay that Lucas blatantly contradicted in the final version. The book came out before the film, it wasn't based on it at all. The Dooku fight is wildly different and is completely incompatable between the two version, where the movie is unconditionally the more valid one. The parts you're using in your argument aren't remotely present in it.

@Syndicate: What scene wasn't included in the movie?


Like Sas pointed out, they aren't the same thing. And secondly, nothing states Dooku was not entirely focused on Anakin when they were dueling and Kenobi was pushed away.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Syndicate: What scene wasn't included in the movie?


Like Sas pointed out, they aren't the same thing. And secondly, nothing states Dooku was not entirely focused on Anakin when they were dueling and Kenobi was pushed away.

Dooku gaining the upper hand over Anakin and Sidious encouraging his rage.

Why aren't they the same thing? Both situations keep the entirety of the character's focus off of combating their opponent effectively.

Nothing states it, it's just logic given Dooku would likely not want to be caught off guard by Kenobi upon realizing the duo's capabilities.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Syndicate: What scene wasn't included in the movie?

The part of the fight where Anakin and Kenobi were pretending to fail, and the part where Anakin loses his edge.

@NG: That part isn't included as well but I'm referring to Dooku gaining the edge over Anakin and Anakin regaining the edge after having his rage stroked by Sidious.

Originally posted by Syndicate
@NG: That part isn't included as well but I'm referring to Dooku gaining the edge over Anakin and Anakin regaining the edge after having his rage stroked by Sidious.

...AKA the part where Anakin loses his edge.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The part of the fight where Anakin and Kenobi were pretending to fail, and the part where Anakin loses his edge.
So scenes not relevant to the debate.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
...AKA the part where Anakin loses his edge.

Ah yes, you're correct. Apologies, I thought you were referring solely to the beginning of the fight.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So scenes not relevant to the debate.

Thats the pivotal scene where Anakin goes super sayian and owns Dooku, lol. Its pretty relevant.

Also a ton of the fight is nothing like the movie in terms of actions or whats supposed to be happening.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Why aren't they the same thing? Both situations keep the entirety of the character's focus off of combating their opponent effectively.
One is Dooku using his Force senses to keep tabs on his environment, which all Jedi and Sith do. Skywalker would be doing it too.

The other is Anakin intentionally restraining his own power and not knowing how to fight Dooku out of fear his rage will consume him.

They're like comparing apples with orangesairplanes, like holy ****.


Except the text makes note of Dooku realizing Kenobi is back in the picture by seeing him through the electric haze of Anakin's lightsaber, not through sensing his movement through the Force.

In other words, you're completely talking out of your ass.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So scenes not relevant to the debate.

The part where Anakin loses his edge isn't relevant to the debate when that's the scene your basing the movie to novel timescale off of? :/

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats the pivotal scene where Anakin goes super sayian and owns Dooku, lol. Its pretty relevant.

Also a ton of the fight is nothing like the movie in terms of actions.

Lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats the pivotal scene where Anakin goes super sayian and owns Dooku, lol. Its pretty relevant.
Which isn't what I'm arguing. Kulvax is doing that and doing a fine job at it.

Different arguments - but one prize.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats the pivotal scene where Anakin goes super sayian and owns Dooku, lol. Its pretty relevant.

Also a ton of the fight is nothing like the movie in terms of actions or whats supposed to be happening.

That happens in the movie too, though. Just without Sidious' intervention.

Originally posted by Syndicate
The part where Anakin loses his edge isn't relevant to the debate when that's the scene your basing the movie to novel timescale off of? :/
What? We're judging the scenes from Dooku pushing Kenobi to Kenobi attacking Dooku, and from Anakin pushing Dooku off the ledge to Dooku's taunting, both of which are compatible in both the novel and film versions.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That happens in the movie too, though. Just without Sidious' intervention.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
One is Dooku using his Force senses to keep tabs on his environment, which all Jedi and Sith do. Skywalker would be doing it too.

The other is Anakin intentionally restraining his own power and not knowing how to fight Dooku out of fear his rage will consume him.

They're like comparing apples with orangesairplanes, like holy ****.


Except the text makes note of Dooku realizing Kenobi is back in the picture by seeing him through the electric haze of Anakin's lightsaber, not through sensing his movement through the Force.

In other words, you're completely talking out of your ass.

There's a difference between keeping your awareness focused on a small area around you to keep you from tripping on stuff ( which btw Zannah was unable to do when focusing on defending against Bane AND enacting a Sith spell ) and having to focus on an enemy combatant that can nearly match you in a contest of sabers by themselves when you're already facing an opponent who's capable of driving you back.

Anakin's power isn't diminished from it's normal state when he focused on containing his rage. His rage was already contained prior to that point. He lost his single minded focus upon realizing that rage existed within him.

I never mentioned senses. You did. I said Dooku would be keeping a part of his focus on keeping an eye out for Kenobi which he did.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That happens in the movie too, though. Just without Sidious' intervention.

So without the entire thing, yes. Sidious' interjection is the whole reason Anakin does that. You're trying to cut out only the parts of the book you want even though they're completely non-sensical without the rest of it.

Dooku's taunt is also completely different and happens at a different time, for what its worth.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? We're judging the scenes from Dooku pushing Kenobi to Kenobi attacking Dooku, and from Anakin pushing Dooku off the ledge to Dooku's taunting, both of which are compatible in both the novel and film versions.

Except Dooku didn't climb a flight of stairs in the movie. You're cherrypicking. You can't argue because Dooku was falling back for 3 seconds before saber locking Anakin in the move that's about how long it would have taken Dooku to have been defeated in the novel had he not employed Dun Moch. Dooku notes that he dreads what would happen if Anakin let loose with his rage but that he was not dreading what was going to occur in the new few seconds of the fight.

Originally posted by Syndicate
There's a difference between keeping your awareness focused on a small area around you to keep you from tripping on stuff ( which btw Zannah was unable to do when focusing on defending against Bane AND enacting a Sith spell ) and having to focus on an enemy combatant that can nearly match you in a contest of sabers by themselves when you're already facing an opponent who's capable of driving you back.

Anakin's power isn't diminished from it's normal state when he focused on containing his rage. His rage was already contained prior to that point. He lost his single minded focus upon realizing that rage existed within him.

I never mentioned senses. You did. I said Dooku would be keeping a part of his focus on keeping an eye out for Kenobi which he did.
No, not really. All you have to do is keep your Force senses aware of when he's relevant again. Skywalker was pushing Dooku back up a flight of stairs with Kenobi visibly on the ground at the bottom of it. He doesn't need to reserve some relevant portion of his power to recognize when Kenobi will become a threat again. That's so ridiculously stupid. Once again, you're literally arguing something that isn't even faintly mentioned in the text, and even outside of the text makes absolutely no sense at all. You're then trying to associate it with Skywalker being fearful of his own dragon, which isn't the same as Dooku having his eyes open.

Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So without the entire thing, yes. Sidious' interjection is the whole reason Anakin does that. You're trying to cut out only the parts of the book you want even though they're completely non-sensical without the rest of it.

I'm not trying to cut out anything. On the contrary, I've always been open to considering information from all three versions of the fight.

You're the one who is trying so desperately to define what is and isn't legitimate material, even when doing so dices half of your argument.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Except Dooku didn't climb a flight of stairs in the movie.

Wait, what? Yes, yes he did.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, not really. All you have to do is keep your Force senses aware of when he's relevant again. Skywalker was pushing Dooku back up a flight of stairs with Kenobi visibly on the ground at the bottom of it. He doesn't need to reserve some relevant portion of his power to recognize when Kenobi will become a threat again. That's so ridiculously stupid. Once again, you're literally arguing something that isn't even faintly mentioned in the text, and even outside of the text makes absolutely no sense at all. You're then trying to associate it with Skywalker being fearful of his own dragon, which isn't the same as Dooku having his eyes open.

Jesus Christ.

The stairs aren't some spiral stair case shielded off on either side. As shown in the movie it's a wide staircase that leads up to the entrance of the room. Obi Wan is a force user, he could simply jump to the top and attack Dooku from the sides or behind which Obi Wan attempts to do as Dooku sees him coming up the stairs behind Anakin's flashing blade.

Holy shit your dense. I'm not saying he's using FORCE POWER to do this. I'm saying he's using gold old fashion brain power, focus, mental energy that he otherwise could be using to combat Anakin more effectively to keep track of and figure out ways to counter Obi Wan if and when he is to rejoin the fight.

I'm associating it with a similar distraction that Anakin also faces which effects his ability to combat Dooku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm not trying to cut out anything. On the contrary, I've always been open to considering information from all three versions of the fight.

You're the one who is trying so desperately to define what is and isn't legitimate material, even when doing so dices half of your argument.

It's already defined. The scenes are wildly different and thus incompatible. Nothing else about that scene is valid but you're trying to say that only the thing you want should be accepted. Naw. Anakin has the epiphany because of something that doesn't occur. Theres no indication of it occuring in the movie and the sole evidence for it is totally unusable.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Wait, what? Yes, yes he did.

You're correct, sorry constantly responding to Ant's posts is killing my brain cells.

Originally posted by Syndicate
The stairs aren't some spiral stair case shielded off on either side. As shown in the movie it's a wide staircase that leads up to the entrance of the room. Obi Wan is a force user, he could simply jump to the top and attack Dooku from the sides or behind which Obi Wan attempts to do as Dooku sees him coming up the stairs behind Anakin's flashing blade.

Holy shit your dense. I'm not saying he's using FORCE POWER to do this. I'm saying he's using gold old fashion brain power, focus, mental energy that he otherwise could be using to combat Anakin more effectively to keep track of and figure out ways to counter Obi Wan if and when he is to rejoin the fight.

I'm associating it with a similar distraction that Anakin also faces which effects his ability to combat Dooku.
It's almost like he can see that too.

You don't need to use a lot of brain power to have your eyes open, lmfao.

An association that probably redefines the "grasping to straws" meme.

Ant, you're a horrible human being. Wholesale.

Apparently because I chose to debate him on a point in Star Wars I disagreed with him about he's decided to attempt to ban me from all the sites I frequent as retaliation. You're the definition of petty Ant. I sincerely hope you don't act like this irl otherwise I honestly feel frightened for the people in your neighborhood. You're a literal sociopath.

???

Originally posted by Syndicate
Apparently because I chose to debate him on a point in Star Wars I disagreed with him about he's decided to attempt to ban me from all the sites I frequent as retaliation. You're the definition of petty Ant. I sincerely hope you don't act like this irl otherwise I honestly feel frightened for the people in your neighborhood. You're a literal sociopath.

Not that I would go that far, but he did basically ruin our friendship because I debated him on something. So that is kind of how he rolls.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Ant, you're a horrible human being. Wholesale.

If you could choose which one of me and Ant should die in their sleep and the other in agony, how would you choose?