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1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-Out

Who takes this?

1. Fisto.
2. Anakin.
3. Prolly Fisto, tbh.

Fisto in all but Anakin makes him work

Oh I doubt Fisto can take Anakin.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Oh I doubt Fisto can take Anakin. ...AOTC Anakin?...

Originally posted by Jmanghan
...AOTC Anakin?...

Anakin's aptitude is still the key. It should be enough, even at this point, to circumvent the amount of experience Fisto holds over him, especially given Fisto's choice of form. Then consider their separate performances against Ventress, and Anakin comes off a little better.

Fisto.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Anakin's aptitude is still the key. It should be enough, even at this point, to circumvent the amount of experience Fisto holds over him, especially given Fisto's choice of form. Then consider their separate performances against Ventress, and Anakin comes off a little better.

The novel does specifically note Ventress's form advantage.

Originally posted by Syndicate
The novel does specifically note Ventress's form advantage.

That is true. But have you ever asked, why does that form advantage exist in the first place? It's not because the Makashi's kata's were specifically designed to counter form 1, but more because the forms are so different in their nature. Form I was based on simplistic fencing principles, and defining the types of attacks, parries, body zones and practice drills that could be utilized with the lightsaber. It's generally bad for 1 on 1 duels altogether, which is an area where Makashi excels. However, Djem so was developed as a varient of Shein, and also focused on 1 vs 1 lightsaber dueling, as noted by Essential Guide to the Force, and of course, your favorite novel ever, The Force unleashed.

The reality is that Fisto is at a disadvantage in most duels, so I imagine most of his wins come from his natural, Force assisted, talent. He's not close to Anakin in this regard however.

My favorite novel is actually Revenge of the Sith. :>

I believe the reason Makashi is inherently advantaged against Shii Cho is because it's noted somewhere that Makashi was made to make up for Form I's weaknesses and generally be a superior version of it. This is likely at the cost of its ability to generate kinetic force or deal with multiple opponents as effectively though that's speculation. What I know is that the text specifically states Makashi has an advantage over Shii Cho. I do not know if this applies to other forms. I'll leave that to others such as yourself.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
It's not because the Makashi's kata's were specifically designed to counter form 1.

Actually they were iirc. Not sure tho.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Fisto.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Actually they were iirc. Not sure tho.

It is stated in Fightsaber that Makashi was created as a counter to the first form, Shii-Cho, because it relies on precision swordplay to counter Form I's broader movements, which is pretty logical. The snag here is that the Fightsaber article is neither canon in it's current form, as in one of Disney's machinations, nor was it canon in the old continuity either. It's also not correct.

Form II was created because both the Sith and fallen Jedi began to arise, and lightsaber duels became the norm. Shii-Cho was simply not a good enough option, seen as it didn't address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat in any measure. This is exactly what necessitated the development of Makashi, a precise and efficient fighting form geared towards lightsaber dueling. Shi Cho on the other hand, was just an experimental form birthed between the transition period from swords to lightsabers. As I said before, it's basic, and far less refined then the other forms. Makashi, as the the most dueling-centric marial art, is clearly going to be it's worst nightmare. But it's not likely to fair well against the other form specifically noted for it's 1-on-1 dueling prowess, and that's exactly what Anakin will be using against him.

Anakin

Anakin in all TBH.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
It is stated in Fightsaber that Makashi was created as a counter to the first form, Shii-Cho, because it relies on precision swordplay to counter Form I's broader movements, which is pretty logical. The snag here is that the Fightsaber article is neither canon in it's current form, as in one of Disney's machinations, nor was it canon in the old continuity either. It's also not correct.

Form II was created because both the Sith and fallen Jedi began to arise, and lightsaber duels became the norm. Shii-Cho was simply not a good enough option, seen as it didn't address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat in any measure. This is exactly what necessitated the development of Makashi, a precise and efficient fighting form geared towards lightsaber dueling. Shi Cho on the other hand, was just an experimental form birthed between the transition period from swords to lightsabers. As I said before, it's basic, and far less refined then the other forms. Makashi, as the the most dueling-centric marial art, is clearly going to be it's worst nightmare. But it's not likely to fair well against the other form specifically noted for it's 1-on-1 dueling prowess, and that's exactly what Anakin will be using against him.

What makes it non canon in Legends continuity?

Probably the fact it's massively contradicted in most sources.

Jedi vs Sith has a passage by our good friend Cin Drallig. It explains the development of Makashi and the other forms, and grants a bit of insight into what Fightsaber was trying to convey. Makashi was developed as a counter to form I in that Makashi was actually a dueling form. Shii-Cho was criminally underperforming in the wars against The Sith.

It's why Makashi usage dropped exponentially after the Battle of Ruusan, and Shii-Cho became more popular. Shii-Cho is the best Lightsaber form for a lot of the challenges that a Jedi of the PT era faced, but not dueling. So yeh, I personally doubt Makashi is a counter in and of itself, (mainly because there's no logical reason for that, a much more natural counter would be Form III) but merely because a form designed for dueling will always outperform a form not designed for dueling if the practitioners are even close in skill.

And as Ziggy rightfully points out (I know, strange), Cin makes it very clear in Jedi vs Sith that Djem-So is as purely designed for dueling as they get.

That caveat aside though, would the advantage be enough for Anakin? In sabers only, perhaps mmm

Originally posted by ares834
Anakin in all TBH.
You have Ventress above Fisto?

Originally posted by Selenial
Probably the fact it's massively contradicted in most sources.

Jedi vs Sith has a passage by our good friend Cin Drallig. It explains the development of Makashi and the other forms, and grants a bit of insight into what Fightsaber was trying to convey. Makashi was developed as a counter to form I in that Makashi was actually a dueling form. Shii-Cho was criminally underperforming in the wars against The Sith.

It's why Makashi usage dropped exponentially after the Battle of Ruusan, and Shii-Cho became more popular. Shii-Cho is the best Lightsaber form for a lot of the challenges that a Jedi of the PT era faced, but not dueling. So yeh, I personally doubt Makashi is a counter in and of itself, (mainly because there's no logical reason for that, a much more natural counter would be Form III) but merely because a form designed for dueling will always outperform a form not designed for dueling if the practitioners are even close in skill.

And as Ziggy rightfully points out (I know, strange), Cin makes it very clear in Jedi vs Sith that Djem-So is as purely designed for dueling as they get.

That caveat aside though, would the advantage be enough for Anakin? In sabers only, perhaps mmm

Does it say that Makashi was a counter to Form I only in that it was designed for a different purpose or is that never addressed?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Does it say that Makashi was a counter to Form I only in that it was designed for a different purpose or is that never addressed?

It says Form I was never designed for dueling, and Form II was developed solely for Lightsaber dueling and was adopted during periods of war between blade wielding factions.

It makes no mention of the comparison between them, but like I said, the Fightsaber article contradicts other sources in the same vein. For example, the whole precise movements to counter the broad strokes and gaps in defences is attributed in other sources to Soresu, not Makashi.

It simply appears that any form designed for dueling can pick apart Form I. Sucks for Fisto.

Edit: Sel got it.

Originally posted by Selenial


It simply appears that any form designed for dueling can pick apart Form I. Sucks for Fisto.

Not entirely surprising tbh.

Originally posted by Selenial
It says Form I was never designed for dueling, and Form II was developed solely for Lightsaber dueling and was adopted during periods of war between blade wielding factions.

It makes no mention of the comparison between them, but like I said, the Fightsaber article contradicts other sources in the same vein. For example, the whole precise movements to counter the broad strokes and gaps in defences is attributed in other sources to Soresu, not Makashi.

It simply appears that any form designed for dueling can pick apart Form I. Sucks for Fisto.

Can I get the quote you're referring to for context? If nothing contradicts the fightsaber quote I see no reason to disregard it.

Originally posted by Syndicate
What makes it non canon in Legends continuity?

Well surely the burden of proof is on you to prove its canonical roots. If I was to present you with a home-made, albeit nicely illustrated comic of Darth Vader, create a Wookiepedia article regarding the publication and tell everyone that it was in fact, a canon-source... does that make it so? And that's the problem I'm seeing here. Star Wars Insider is not a canon source because it never was a canon source. It is a fan-made creation that sometimes draw from the perosnal views of various authors. Their opinions, however, are not part of any official work.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The reality is that Fisto is at a disadvantage in most duels, so I imagine most of his wins come from his natural, Force assisted, talent. He's not close to Anakin in this regard however. I doubt that, even when deliberately holding back his Force augmentative strength along with a host of other self-imposed disadvantages, AotC Kenobi was unable to break through his defence, and pronounced him "the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive", and while the Djem So variant of Form V was designed specifically for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, Anakin has yet to master it, all he has is Shien.

Logically, Fisto should probably win.

And he will tbh, Anakin is good but he's not Council level yet.

How big is Anakin's form advantage?

He doesn't have one.

Mm, just checking... People love to hate Shii-Cho

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Mm, just checking... People love to hate Shii-Cho

Just checking? You'll have to do more than ask Beni, for his personal opinion on the matter. If you haven't noticed by now, he's not particularly the type to think for himself, or the type to connecting various dots with evidence and come up with conclusions. It is true, there is not a big neon signal that literally states Djem so is the superior form. There is however, this :

"Because the ancient Jedi did not have lightsaber-wielding enemies, Form I does not address the lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat."
―Cin Drallig

"Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling."
―Cin Drallig

I'm sure one can make conclusions from what this might implicate. It's not that hard.

AotC Anakin does not wield Djem So dear, that appears to be the dot you are missing.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You have Ventress above Fisto?

Yes.

She has defeated him in a duel after all.

AOTC Fisto was better than AOTC Kenobi, so assuming Fisto improved throughout the wars, he should be beyond AOTC Anakin.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
AotC Anakin does not wield Djem So dear, that appears to be the dot you are missing.

I'm afraid that Star Wars continuity according to Beniboybling, is not the correct answer.... he does.

Originally posted by AncientPower
AOTC Fisto was better than AOTC Kenobi, so assuming Fisto improved throughout the wars, he should be beyond AOTC Anakin.

Always knew you weren't a true member of the movement. Just so you know, I'm going off the rather radical pretense that Obi Wan and Anakin are not the same person.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well surely the burden of proof is on you to prove its canonical roots. If I was to present you with a home-made, albeit nicely illustrated comic of Darth Vader, create a Wookiepedia article regarding the publication and tell everyone that it was in fact, a canon-source... does that make it so? And that's the problem I'm seeing here. Star Wars Insider is not a canon source because it never was a canon source. It is a fan-made creation that sometimes draw from the perosnal views of various authors. Their opinions, however, are not part of any official work.

So you're saying Fightsaber was never a canon source or officialized by anybody with authority in this area?

Originally posted by Syndicate
So you're saying Fightsaber was never a canon source or officialized by anybody with authority in this area?

I think I made that pretty clear.

I was unaware.

Can anyone confirm this for me?

News to me about the Insiders being non-canon even in Legends, where's the source for this?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I'm afraid that Star Wars continuity according to Beniboybling, is not the correct answer.... he does.It's stated that he hadn't in the RotS novelisation, but please, enlighten me with your sources.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust



Always knew you weren't a true member of the movement. Just so you know, I'm going off the rather radical pretense that Obi Wan and Anakin are not the same person.


Exactly.

And according to the AOTC novel, Anakin pressed Dooku where Obi-Wan did no such thing.

Originally posted by Syndicate
I was unaware.

Can anyone confirm this for me? Fightsaber invented the seven styles of lightsaber combat so it was evidently considered official. It also doesn't appear to contradict later sources, or say much of anything that people have claimed it's said.

Ah, that's good enough for me.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Exactly.

And according to the AOTC novel, Anakin pressed Dooku where Obi-Wan did no such thing. Actually according to the AotC novel he did just that:

"Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust, and he soon had Dooku backing, the red blade working furiously to keep Obi-Wan at bay."

Fisto wins tbh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually according to the AotC novel he did just that:

"Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust, and he soon had Dooku backing, the red blade working furiously to keep Obi-Wan at bay." Plus in the movie there's a point where Dooku almost gets cut in half by Wan.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's stated that he hadn't in the RotS novelisation, but please, enlighten me with your sources.
How is he teaching Ahsoka Form V without knowing Form V? Magic? Is he making a wish?

EDIT: Let me put this another way, Anakin had already mastered one half of Form V by AotC, Shien, but only later into the Clone Wars to be develop his skills in Djem So.

Eh...all Jedi are trained through the various forms and master 2 of them...well at least Legends anyway.

Right, Ahsoka is actually already demonstrating proficiency in Shien before he training under Anakin.

Shien and Djem So aren't different forms. Literally no one competent would teach half of a form.

You know both Vaapad and Juyo are form VII correct?

Shien is made for blaster deflection while Djem So for lightsaber combat. It makes sense that they'd be taught separately.

Dooku obviously believed it to be possible as he didn't suspect Anakin of having any capabilities in the Djem So variant despite apparently employing Shien against him in their ruse at the beginning.

They are described as distinct variations of a single style, which employ different moves but based on the same philosophy.

Galen Marek being another individual who'd only mastered Shien, Kenobi I believe also picked up Shien but not Djem So and the Jedi Exile is only taught Shien by the KOTOR Jedi Masters. Ahsoka too, only demonstrated proficiency in Shien before her apprenticeship.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
News to me about the Insiders being non-canon even in Legends, where's the source for this?

Just to clarify, Star Wars Insider is still a non canon publication, originally created by the LucasFilm FanClub, and not the LFL. However, I've just done some research that might clarify why some articles of Insider are canon within the Legends continuity:

"Leland vets the stuff I write for Insider that's fiction or includes new continuity. He's a busy man; I doubt he'd do that for kicks on his break."

- Jason Fry

So anything that includes new continuity or a fictional work within Insider, is C-level canon. Under this rule, the Fightsaber article is probably is C-canon, because rather than just making an interpretation of the source material, it does include what's likely counted as 'new continuity' - the first mention ever of Lightsaber forms and their marks of contact. However, it is undoubtedly contradicted by Jedi vs Sith regarding it's description of Makashi, and how it became popular. In this instance, the newer continuity takes precedence over the older one.

@Beni and @Syndicate,

I understand the obvious reminiscing for the ROTS novel, but do realize that any notion of Dooku being 'unfamiliar' with their forms is an old concept, and probably not worth clinging to. The massive amount of content in TCW does somewhat shit on said concept... given the numerous occasions where Dooku fought Skywalker and knowing the latter taught Djem So to Ashoka.

It's about as reliable as that one statement regarding Palpatine's lightsaber, claiming it had not seen the light of day for over a decade. Obviously we know that's not true because he fought Savage & Maul with said lightsaber. Much like that nugget of text, Dooku's internal commentary can also be hand-waved as something that's no longer relevant.

The only thing that can be hand-waved is Dooku being unfamiliar with Anakin's developments prior to RotS, nothing in Canon however contradicts the notion that he didn't master Djem So until after AotC.

Certainly nothing you've presented.

Rag on about Ahsoka all you like but all we have been told is that she was being taught to "fight more like him", which is entirely relative to how Anakin fights, nor does it preclude Anakin developing skill in Djem So in those months between AotC and TCW. More importantly you continue to fail to provide evidence that he fought as a Djem So stylist as of his first duel with Dooku. Contrary to what Legends tells us. Try again.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The only thing that can be hand-waved is Dooku being unfamiliar with Anakin's developments prior to RotS, nothing in Canon however contradicts the notion that he didn't master Djem So until after AotC.

I see.

So rather than accepting obvious truths, we're still going with continuity according to Beniboybling's agenda - whatever that may be - which comes with his incessant need to reply to lost debates? Sorry but it absolutely does contradict the notion Beni, and it does so by making it no longer relevant to story. That's how retcons - which is short for retroactive continuity - work. Instead of creating an exception to the rule regarding the story, we have an old and outdated concept that is replaced by a newer one. But that's not the only flaw within Dooku's internal commentary. If you've read Revenge of the Sith, especially the paragraph regarding Anakin & Obi Wan's preferred forms, you'll notice that Dooku makes this statement:

blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well. Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

- Revenge of the Sith

So by your line of thought... and by the Count's evident surprise regarding Kenobi's preferred form, we can conclude that he never used Soresu up until that point? Well you'd be wrong on all fronts there. It has been established in c-canon that Kenobi originally specialized in Ataru, and was trained in the form by Qui-Gon Jinn. We also know for instance, that upon witnessing his master's death - which is pinned down to Ataru's lack of defensive capabilities - Kenobi decided to switch his focus to Soresu. A switch that was chosen to eliminate this weakness in his own technique. All this happened directly after TPM, 10 years before his first encounter with Dooku. I'm not sure how long it takes to 'master' Soresu, but we know that Niman could have been mastered in that time :

How long can you expect to study Form VI before you master it? If you dedicated yourself only to Form VI, you will study for at least ten years.

- Jedi VS Sith




You mean your own personal theory of Anakin developing Djem So in those months during the clone wars, while teaching it raw to Ashoka? The realm of speculation and guess work is fine, dear, but that's only when said speculation is logical. There are certain tools that both philosophers and scientists use to determine ideas that are uncertain in nature. What you're omitting here is called the fallacy of the least plausible hypothesis. Shall I explain further.

"I left a saucer of milk outside overnight. In the morning, the milk was gone. Clearly, my yard was visited by fairies."

- Beniboybling

There is an old rule for deciding which explanation is the most plausible. The current phrase among scientists is that an explanation should be "the most parsimonious", meaning that it should not introduce concepts (like fairies) when concepts (like neighborhood cats) will do. On ward rounds, medical students love to come up with the most obscure explanations for common problems. A traditional response is to tell them "If you hear hoof beats, don't automatically think of zebras". Likewise, it's not too likely that Anakin had studied Djem so to the point where he could teach it to a neophyte. It's certainly possible, but still a less likley conclusion.



You've been provided with plenty of evidence, Beni. All the evidence points to it being the most logical conclusion, while your stuck with fairies kidnapping saucers of milk.

Gosh your egotistical sub-narrative is mind-numbing, in future could you start with the point and save the fluff till later? Will make it much easier to skim. Moving on you continue to raise zero evidence to support your claim, no surprises there. So let's get on with the rest:

1. Dooku notes that Kenobi had become a master of Soresu which there is certainly no evidence to suggest he was by AotC, or that he wielded it as his dominant form. Instead in the script, novel and film itself, Kenobi comes at Dooku with a notable aggression uncharacteristic of Form III, so evidently he was still using Ataru primarily. Something that should be obvious considering the source that established post-TPM Kenobi as picking up Soresu (Fightsaber) predates RotS, it's not a retcon, just a misinterpretation on your part.

On the other hand in regards to Anakin, he simply notes that "the boy was a Djem So stylist", precluding the notion that he was in AotC entirely. So no, as far as a comparison between their fighting styles at the beginning and end of the Clone Wars, the novel remains accurate.

2. You've made the claim that my interpretation is unlikely, yet in all your pseudo-intellectual blather not once explained why. Again no surprise.

Regardless you've evaded the central point; the fact that Ahsoka was taught to fight more like him does not prove she was taught Djem So, that only follows on from the assumption that he had at that point mastered the form. In a word it proves nothing. Given that I'm not sure I can be assed to explain to you why for Anakin mastering the later half of Form V in a relatively short space is perfectly feasible.

Altogether I'm afraid you're going to have to try again, if this even qualifies as an attempt.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually according to the AotC novel he did just that:

"Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust, and he soon had Dooku backing, the red blade working furiously to keep Obi-Wan at bay."


And that was the total extent of Obi-Wan pressing Dooku as right after it says:

"Obi-Wan pressed forward more forcefully,but Dooku continued to fend off his strikes, and then his momentum played out."


As for Anakin, he was clearly giving Dooku far more trouble, and for a longer period:

""I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light. For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying. He tried to step out to the side, but stopped as if he had hit a wall, and his eyes widened a bit when he had realised that this young Padawan, in the midst of that assault, had used the Force to block his exit."


I belive Nick Gillard also stated that Anakin was more skilled than Obi-Wan as a swordsman during AOTC which was quite surprising (for the people who cling to every word he says).

So yeah I'm with Anakin for this fight.


On a side note a major advantage of Makashi not producing much kinetic energy:

"Off to the side, Obi-Wan understood that it couldn't hold. Anakin was expending many times the energy of the efficient Dooku, and as soon as he tired..."


Problem is though with Anakin, especially ROTS Anakin, with his seemingly unlimited Force reserves, he won't tire for a long long time. Hence Anakin's major advantage over Dooku that wouldn't apply with 2 equally powerful Djem So vs Makashi practitioners.

bump

Fisto sweeps, but Anakin gives him hell.

Fisto's proved nothing against Darksiders. AOTC Anakin has made Dooku work his hardest to defeat him, and beaten Ventress, something Fisto couldn't do (form advantage BS aside).

Anakin wins (unless Padme's just been hurt so he rushes in like a moron trying to blitz Fisto).

Anakin making Dooku work his hardest is factually incorrect, and has been retconned. Anakin by AotC performs similarly to Obi-Wan in current sources, and Fisto was easily defeating him.

I also don't think it's fair comparing Anakin's and Kit's performance to Asajj. Anakin was fighting an untrained Ventress and until he got angry, he was losing. Fisto was facing a more well-trained Ventress, who had prep and was at a form disadvantage and, from the limited detail we have of the fight, we know she only pierced his guard once after a lengthy duel.

Fisto.

Originally posted by MythLord
Anakin making Dooku work his hardest is factually incorrect, and has been retconned. Anakin by AotC performs similarly to Obi-Wan in current sources, and Fisto was easily defeating him.


Sounds to me like you're mixing up Canon and Legend sources here.

In Canon there is no Cestus Deception, so Fisto never proved himself superior to AOTC Kenobi.

And there's 2 sources which put AOTC Anakin above AOTC Kenobi- The AOTC Novel, and Nick Gillard. Both those sources are arguably applicable to both Canon and Legends.


Originally posted by MythLord
I also don't think it's fair comparing Anakin's and Kit's performance to Asajj. Anakin was fighting an untrained Ventress and until he got angry, he was losing. Fisto was facing a more well-trained Ventress, who had prep and was at a form disadvantage and, from the limited detail we have of the fight, we know she only pierced his guard once after a lengthy duel.


Well Anakin getting angry is when he lets loose and his true power comes out. And lets face it, once he got angry he owned Ventress.

Originally posted by MythLord
Anakin making Dooku work his hardest is factually incorrect, and has been retconned.Lmao.

Where does Gillard say AotC Anakin > AotC Obi-Wan? Gillard claims that they're on the same level, but he also claims that Anakin has gone past Obi-Wan since AotC, which would mean Anakin hadn't surpassed him by AotC.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sounds to me like you're mixing up Canon and Legend sources here.

In Canon there is no Cestus Deception, so Fisto never proved himself superior to AOTC Kenobi.

And there's 2 sources which put AOTC Anakin above AOTC Kenobi- The AOTC Novel, and Nick Gillard. Both those sources are arguably applicable to both Canon and Legends.

I'm using Composite versions, actually. Newer sources note Anakin was easily outfenced by Dooku, even sources going so far back as The New Essential Guide to Characters and old Fact Files note the same.


Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well Anakin getting angry is when he lets loose and his true power comes out. And lets face it, once he got angry he owned Ventress.

Not really. An enraged Anakin is just that: a rage amped Anakin. Standard Anakin, who's going to be the one facing Fisto, isn't going to perform on that level.

And he only owned her once she had one blade left. Prior to that, she actually succeeded in disarming him:

https://youtu.be/HbBKHB1Sffg?t=419

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao.

As of AotC, yeah that is the case.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Where does Gillard say AotC Anakin > AotC Obi-Wan? Gillard claims that they're on the same level, but he also claims that Anakin has gone past Obi-Wan since AotC, which would mean Anakin hadn't surpassed him by AotC.


I'll have to find it, but it was some commentary on AOTC saying Anakin is more skilled than Obi-Wan, (but not that he was on another level).

Was a written article, posted on these boards a few times, not a video commentary.

Originally posted by MythLord
As of AotC, yeah that is the case. Or maybe you just misread the novel, mmm.

Originally posted by MythLord
I'm using Composite versions, actually. Newer sources note Anakin was easily outfenced by Dooku, even sources going so far back as The New Essential Guide to Characters and old Fact Files note the same.


Do those same sources contradict Anakin performing better than Obi-Wan as well?




Originally posted by MythLord
Not really. An enraged Anakin is just that: a rage amped Anakin. Standard Anakin, who's going to be the one facing Fisto, isn't going to perform on that level.

And he only owned her once she had one blade left. Prior to that, she actually succeeded in disarming him:

https://youtu.be/HbBKHB1Sffg?t=419


You're acting like Anakin getting angry is some unusual thing which is unlikely to happen.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Do those same sources contradict Anakin performing better than Obi-Wan as well?

Nope, but they do close any gap between AotC Annie and Obi to the point that the two are decently close, whereas Fisto is notably above that paygrade.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're acting like Anakin getting angry is some unusual thing which is unlikely to happen.

Well it happened against Asajj, and against Dooku... Yeah, pretty rare. And usually, if anything, it hinders him(hindered him against Tyranus until Sheev stepped in, hindered him against Obi, hindered him against Ventress on Coruscant, etc.)

It didn't hinder him against Ventree. She was getting the better of him till she mentioned Padme.

It didn't hinder him against Dooku either. What hindered him against Dooku was him struggling to contain his anger.

Originally posted by MythLord
I'm using Composite versions, actually.

Ew...

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It didn't hinder him against Ventree. She was getting the better of him till she mentioned Padme.

It didn't hinder him against Dooku either. What hindered him against Dooku was him struggling to contain his anger.

Then why did Asajj nearly decapitate him and kept scoring hits on him, while Anakin visibly struggled? And yeah, Dooku's Dun Moch did hinder Anakin:

"Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could."

Anakin was afraid of his anger, and Dooku pointed it out with Dun Moch, thus hindering him when he tried using it. Prior to that, Skywalker was growing stronger since he held his anger back behind walls of iron will.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ew...

Canon and EU don't conflict anywhere here, so... yeah.

Originally posted by MythLord
Canon and EU don't conflict anywhere here, so... yeah.

Still bleh.

Originally posted by MythLord
Then why did Asajj nearly decapitate him and kept scoring hits on him, while Anakin visibly struggled? And yeah, Dooku's Dun Moch did hinder Anakin:

"Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could."

Anakin was afraid of his anger, and Dooku pointed it out with Dun Moch, thus hindering him when he tried using it. Prior to that, Skywalker was growing stronger since he held his anger back behind walls of iron will.

Because Ventress was more skilled then him by that point.

Of course Dooku's Dun Moch did. But his anger wasn't the cause. It was how he chose to handle his anger.

I'm not disagreeing there. I'm simply saying that his anger doesn't hinder him in the instances you suggested.

When has Ventress ever been more skilled then Anakin?...

Even in their first duel, Anakin was performing just as well in saber combat before getting enraged.

Throughout most of the Clone Wars after she recieved Sith training from Dooku.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Even in their first duel, Anakin was performing just as well in saber combat before getting enraged.

Before Ventress had been trained by Dooku or learned how to properly employ Jar Kai considering she had used a single blade for the entirety of her training under Ky Narec.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Throughout most of the Clone Wars after she recieved Sith training from Dooku. Anakin beat her every time.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Anakin beat her every time. Also, Anakin is beating Dooku consistently through-out the series, even in TCW Movie.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Anakin beat her every time.

Their first encounter ended with Anakina and Ahsoka escaping with Rotta.

Their second encounter wa stem fighting over a cylinder where Anakin landed a kick and Ventress landed a force push with Ventress trying to escape with it and then Ventress knocking Anakin to the ground before being surrounded by clones.

Their other fights were Ventress dueling both Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously.

Only near the end during the Ahsoka trial business did Anakin demonstrate clear superiority which he should given he's moving past her level up to Dooku's by that point.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Also, Anakin is beating Dooku consistently through-out the series, even in TCW Movie.

An outright falsitude. Dooku and Anakin met several times throughout the series with Dooku demonstrating clear superiority in each of their encounters until the very end of the series where Anakin becomes a legitimate challenge.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
An outright falsitude. Dooku and Anakin met several times throughout the series with Dooku demonstrating clear superiority in each of their encounters until the very end of the series where Anakin becomes a legitimate challenge.

watch?v=Q6zGXR32dNE

Anakin won the above duel.

watch?v=eQATBFIZ13o

Dooku barely escapes with his life, only managing to do so because of his mastery of Force Lightning.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Because Ventress was more skilled then him by that point.

Of course Dooku's Dun Moch did. But his anger wasn't the cause. It was how he chose to handle his anger.

I'm not disagreeing there. I'm simply saying that his anger doesn't hinder him in the instances you suggested.

That takes place only a few months before RotS, though... She isn't more skill than him by that point, because by that point Skywalker is a close contender with Dooku.

Actually, the text does note that the angrier he got, the more afraid he got because of it. Until he became Lord Vader, and even then actually, whenever he got angry he had to focus more on keeping that anger in check than anything else.

So in that sense, his anger did hinder him since he had to keep it in check.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
watch?v=Q6zGXR32dNE

Anakin won the above duel.

watch?v=eQATBFIZ13o

Dooku barely escapes with his life, only managing to do so because of his mastery of Force Lightning.

Both your links were errors. Much like you yourself.

Originally posted by MythLord
That takes place only a few months before RotS, though... She isn't more skill than him by that point, because by that point Skywalker is a close contender with Dooku.

Actually, the text does note that the angrier he got, the more afraid he got because of it. Until he became Lord Vader, and even then actually, whenever he got angry he had to focus more on keeping that anger in check than anything else.

So in that sense, his anger did hinder him since he had to keep it in check.

May I ask how she was his superior in lightsaber combat when he is more physically powerful, has more raw force power and a form advantage then?

Only in a few instances was this the case. You're correct that when he actively restrained his anger he was hindered but when he unconsciously drew on it or drew on it without care he was empowered by it.

As I said I don't disagree that it hindered him at times. Just not in the ones you mentioned.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
May I ask how she was his superior in lightsaber combat when he is more physically powerful, has more raw force power and a form advantage then?

Emotional hinderence. His anger was the cause of it, obviously, because someone with skill rivalling Count Dooku isn't going to be inferior to Ventress by any means in a normal battle.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Only in a few instances was this the case. You're correct that when he actively restrained his anger he was hindered but when he unconsciously drew on it or drew on it without care he was empowered by it.

As I said I don't disagree that it hindered him at times. Just not in the ones you mentioned.

Yet it did hinder him both those times since Jedi Anakin was always afraid of his anger, and how it might empower him. He knew it was not the Jedi way, and thus he held it back consistently. When he was forced to draw upon it, he had to keep it in check as well.

THat's why it hindered him against Tyranus until Palpatine stepped in, and that's why his inferior, Asajj, was beating him.

Originally posted by MythLord
Emotional hinderence. His anger was the cause of it, obviously, because someone with skill rivalling Count Dooku isn't going to be inferior to Ventress by any means in a normal battle.



Yet it did hinder him both those times since Jedi Anakin was always afraid of his anger, and how it might empower him. He knew it was not the Jedi way, and thus he held it back consistently. When he was forced to draw upon it, he had to keep it in check as well.

THat's why it hindered him against Tyranus until Palpatine stepped in, and that's why his inferior, Asajj, was beating him.

Or it's the simple fact his skill didn't rival Dooku's by that point. And he wasn't angry until Ventress mentioned Padme. And when he got angry it allowed him to wrap her in wires.

How did it hinder him with Ventress or when he was unconsciously drawing on it against Dooku?

He wasn't angry until Ventress mentioned Padme. And he wasn't consiously blocking his anger off with Dooku until Dooku mentioned it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Or it's the simple fact his skill didn't rival Dooku's by that point. And he wasn't angry until Ventress mentioned Padme. And when he got angry it allowed him to wrap her in wires.

Just a few months prior to RotS? I'd argue he did, given how he was beating Dooku in RotS.

Also, Ventress threatened Padme's life right before the fight started:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5485697-endangers+padme.jpg

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5485698-then+he+strikes.jpg

Once she told him he knows little of the Dark Side, then he proceeded to beat the sh!t into her because he remembered: "Oh yeah, I can use this rage if I stop controlling it."

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
How did it hinder him with Ventress or when he was unconsciously drawing on it against Dooku?

He wasn't angry until Ventress mentioned Padme. And he wasn't consiously blocking his anger off with Dooku until Dooku mentioned it.

It hindered him maybe because Anakin realized as he was drawing on his rage, he was breaking the Jedi Code and trying to keep his emotions in check. In the RotS novel, Anakin was consciously holding back his anger behind "walls of iron will", was what made him grow stronger and stronger.

The moment Dooku taunted him and he started using that rage, he had lost control of his emotions which did weaken him.

Also, Asajj mentioned Padme before the fight, as I noted above.

It's 2:00 A.M. where I'm at. Valid point on Ventress threatening Padme beforehand. Not so valid on Anakin's ability suddenly shifting because of Ventress' commentary on how little Anakin knew of the Darkside. I'll address that tomorrow.

As for Dooku and Anakin's comparative skill you have fallen to the trap of many of the Anakin wankers not taking into account the various factors at play that advantaged Anakin in his fight against Dooku. Will address that tomorrow as well.

So "hur dur, FORM ADVANTAGE!" is going to be a part of your argument? Great; I've run enough circles to deal with that.

Also sleep tight.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Q6zGXR32dNE

Anakin won the above duel.

eQATBFIZ13o

Dooku barely escapes with his life, only managing to do so because of his mastery of Force Lightning.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
1. Fisto.
2. Anakin.
3. Prolly Fisto, tbh.

Anakin didn't win either of those duels and dooku stalemated a superior anakin in dark desciple and outfought anakin in season 6

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Fisto.

It's a good fight because they're both stated to be level 7's. With respect to the EU, Anakin's matched Kit's speed feats and has a better-suited form to actually engaging in one-on-one fights, so it's plausible for him to win.

That said, Kit's actual combat feats at this point are better and he's achieved more renown as a swordsman. I'm going with him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Anakin's matched Kit's speed feats

The Goddamn memories, these four words bring back.

You mean back in the day when we cared a lot about strength and speed feats? lol

Yep.

We used to argue stupid shit like "This dude created 8 afterimages, while the other nigga only made 6!" or some stupid shit like that.

It's hilarious how our perceptions and criteria for judging these battles have changed so drastically.

Imagine SW debating in like five years, I wonder what that'll be like

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yep.

We used to argue stupid shit like "This dude created 8 afterimages, while the other nigga only made 6!" or some stupid shit like that.

It's hilarious how our perceptions and criteria for judging these battles have changed so drastically.

lol We're not quite as pedantic as that anymore, but we do still care about speed feats. In this case, it's because Kit's speed is a major factor in his fighting style, so it's important if Anakin can match them.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Imagine SW debating in like five years, I wonder what that'll be like

Don't think any of us are going to be around to see it.

Traya is Vader tier because she kills fodder Sith

Originally posted by SunRazer
Don't think any of us are going to be around to see it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Don't think any of us are going to be around to see it.
drugs are killing people

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Imagine SW debating in like five years, I wonder what that'll be like

Hopefully, less cancerous and more discussion. I'm confident in the foundation we've paid for the future.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Anakin didn't win either of those duels and dooku stalemated a superior anakin in dark desciple and outfought anakin in season 6 Are you blind or stupid?

Fisto fists.

Kit, yeah.

Bump.

Kit. Anakin at this stage is perhaps slightly ahead of Obi, whereas Kit is considerably above him.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Imagine SW debating in like five years, I wonder what that'll be like

Future looking grim.

Fisto.

Kit Fisto all.