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How's this one go?

depends on the battlefield. In a small enclosed area Kurse would eventually win due to the Flash eventually running out of steam. In an open area, the Flash could build up enough speed to bfr him in a number of ways. Scenario 2 would be Flash's fight to lose.

Flash via bfr.

Flash via stealing speed and IMP. Easy win.

Originally posted by h1a8
Flash via stealing speed and IMP. Easy win.

Not all Flashes can speed steal, though Wally would surely stomp.

Forum flash is almost unbeatable let's face it

Flash wins pretty easily, tbh.

Remove BFR as an option and it becomes a little more balanced, but Flash still wins.

Forum Flash is the worst

Even worse than forum Sentry

Nah. Not even forum Flash has been wanked to 'beyond omniversal' levels.

Rofl...

The difference is that Sentry's power is downplayed via various ways in the comics:
Amnesia which didn't allow him to remember his powers.
Weakened / depowered by his agoraphobia.
His powers screwed by the Negative Zone because he is roleplaying a good guy not using the negative energy.

Forum Flash is a fantasy of fanboy which never happened in the comics.

Sentry when stable is clearly omniversal.
You don't change the whole Marvel Universe to fit in it without screwing the timelines if you don't have access to that kind of power.

Case in point.

geezs stfu...

anyway, in a ring, where bfr is off, and no iron is available....if this is the version of kurse who was smacking around thor w/belt and power pack and bill i don't see any flash being able to do much. steal speed? he could but kurse (in that form) is just living armor so flash could pound away at him and i'm not sure it would be enough and speed stealing isn't an indefinitely long thing. i mean it took the draining of BOTH mjolnir stormbreaker to just KO him..... that's....friggin ridiculous.

i actually think flash would tire himself out before he could ko kurse. if he didn't use speed steal he could likely avoid kurse until he was exhausted, but i wonder what repeated thunderclaps from someone maybe 5x or more stronger than thor would do to a small battlefield....?

i sort of see this battle the same i see juggs vs flash in ring setting. kurse or juggs would simply wait flash out. flash's only chance as i see it might be vibrating into the armor and trying to destroy it that way, but given how durable kurse was and the magic involved, even that feels iffy to me. without bfr i don't give flash great odds here. /shrug

Flash quickly gets an iron crowbar and beats Kurse to bloody pulp.

Flash's only real options are BFR via IMP, or speed-stealing. I suppose the vibration tactic might also work, like you mentioned -- it worked on COIE Anti-Monitor, after all.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nah. Not even forum Flash has been wanked to 'beyond omniversal' levels.
Lol when has Sentry been...
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Sentry when stable is clearly omniversal.
... oh.

Wow

Originally posted by Galan007
Flash's only real options are BFR via IMP, or speed-stealing. I suppose the vibration tactic might also work, like you mentioned -- it worked on COIE Anti-Monitor, after all.

i just assumed bfr was off the table in a standard ring match....but yeah bfr is his best chance if it were available. i think speed steal would be a delaying tactic in this thing. i mean kurse isn't exactly fast anyway.... lol the vibration tactic would be interesting to see. impossible i guess to say exactly what would happen if he tried it. i think it resisted disintegration by that power pack kid though (don't have the e-book at hand to check) iirc so maybe it wouldn't go over so well? i dunno.

Iron items can be found pretty much everywhere. Flash only needs to find one, then throw it through Kurse's skull.

Standard battleground is featureless

Well, standard battle also allows BFR so Flash wins either way.

The thing about Kurse's 'weakness' to iron is that it has only been exploited one time on panel -- and that was when Power Pack dropped an entire damned skyscraper on him, lol. But even then, he still dug himself out later in the issue, and appeared none the worse for wear.

So even in a field where iron might be in play, I don't see it as a weakness Flash could easily exploit(if at all.) People tend to liken iron to Kryptonite where Kurse is concerned -- that's just not the case.

When the object in question hits him in the head nearly at lightspeed even the slightest hint of vulnerability is enough, though.

not worth the debate since iron's not available to him anyway....

What if some of Flashes blood got in his eye?

Originally posted by leonidas
geezs stfu...

anyway, in a ring, where bfr is off, and no iron is available....if this is the version of kurse who was smacking around thor w/belt and power pack and bill i don't see any flash being able to do much. steal speed? he could but kurse (in that form) is just living armor so flash could pound away at him and i'm not sure it would be enough and speed stealing isn't an indefinitely long thing. i mean it took the draining of BOTH mjolnir stormbreaker to just KO him..... that's....friggin ridiculous.

i actually think flash would tire himself out before he could ko kurse. if he didn't use speed steal he could likely avoid kurse until he was exhausted, but i wonder what repeated thunderclaps from someone maybe 5x or more stronger than thor would do to a small battlefield....?

i sort of see this battle the same i see juggs vs flash in ring setting. kurse or juggs would simply wait flash out. flash's only chance as i see it might be vibrating into the armor and trying to destroy it that way, but given how durable kurse was and the magic involved, even that feels iffy to me. without bfr i don't give flash great odds here. /shrug

So you dont think the IMP can ko Kurse or bfr him?

Originally posted by hutchy1345
Forum flash is almost unbeatable let's face it

People call him forum Flash, but I call him "Flash not acting like a f*cking moron".

not even sure Kurse can even touch the flash.. unless this is grant gustin version hahaha

Originally posted by Surtur
People call him forum Flash, but I call him "Flash not acting like a f*cking moron".

Well since he's literally always a moron unless he's fighting Zoom, the moniker fits

Kurse is eventually just going to hit the Flash, somehow or some way. No need to tie oneself in knots figuring out some logical way for Kurse to win. There isn't one. And yet he will.
Super speed is just screwed up in comics because the alternative is even uglier--a comic hierarchy dominated by speedsters. Fights that are one-sided and hard to draw in an interesting way. Or worse, everyone and their dog having super speed.
Look at the latest Superman vs. Doomsday fight. First, they took super speed away from Doomsday. (Doomsday was just once said to have it and never really used it, but him and Superman both having speed in theory sorta helped us feel better about them fighting at regular speeds.)
But this time, they basically take it away from him, AND have Superman pull a speed blitz move that he said he borrowed from the Flash. Of course he only uses it for a bit (unrealistic--why not always?) and even more funnily, it does jack squat. He hits Doomsday LITERALLY 4,000 times in a row, unopposed and it does nothing. Then Doomsday punches Superman in the face with a regular-speed punch!
Ah Comics, gotta love them!

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Kurse is eventually just going to hit the Flash, somehow or some way. No need to tie oneself in knots figuring out some logical way for Kurse to win. There isn't one. And yet he will.
LOL no

It's silly to say "logic doesn't matter" and then say Flash loses when this guy literally beats logic to death with his high end feats. No that isn't correct. He doesn't beat logic to death, he flat out erases it from existence.

I'm not saying logic doesn't matter in general--we'd have trouble communicating at all if that were true.
I'm just saying that you shouldn't try to be more realistic than the comics typically are.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I'm not saying logic doesn't matter in general--we'd have trouble communicating at all if that were true.
I'm just saying that you shouldn't try to be more realistic than the comics typically are.

Comics have shown that Flash sees things frozen in time. That means Kurse wouldn't be moving to him. Comics have also shown that Flash can IMP and steal speed. This is the reality that's in comics.

Any argument for flash is due to it BEING SHOWN IN COMICS. Full capacity rule helps flash do those things all the time (or more frequently).

Flash also took a little known guy called SBP into the Speed Force, amongst others, trapping him there for a BFRwin.

He also is so fast Superman couldn't even perceive him. Flash beat logic to death and raped it's children a long time ago.

Kurse can't beat Wally, ever, unless Wally deems to allow the lil guy to defeat him.

Hmm...I just re-read the forum rules for the first time in a while.

The PIS rule wasn't one I liked, but it really isn't worded that badly. It's not like what CBR's was. And it doesn't seem to mean what most people here say it means. I remembered that rule, and could live with it.

But what I had missed was the full-capacity rule. It's sorta like the old CBR rule, but not as strong and fill of more contradictions. For all it's insanity, the CBR PIS rule was clean and clear. This one is a bit harder to parse.

See under the CBR PIS rules, not only will the Flash blitz everyone, but the speed will also work realistically. Here, characters will use any powers they have ever used and use them consistently, but it still doesn't require that we evaluate the effectiveness of those tactics in realistic terms. So the the Flash might indeed blitz and STILL have it not be that effective.

This board is so messed up.

IOW, like the comics they draw on for support.

Flash CAN and DOES blitz, but as you note, sometimes it is not effective.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Hmm...I just re-read the forum rules for the first time in a while.

The PIS rule wasn't one I liked, but it really isn't worded that badly. It's not like what CBR's was. And it doesn't seem to mean what most people here say it means. I remembered that rule, and could live with it.

But what I had missed was the full-capacity rule. It's sorta like the old CBR rule, but not as strong and fill of more contradictions. For all it's insanity, the CBR PIS rule was clean and clear. This one is a bit harder to parse.

See under the CBR PIS rules, not only will the Flash blitz everyone, but the speed will also work realistically. Here, characters will use any powers they have ever used and use them consistently, but it still doesn't require that we evaluate the effectiveness of those tactics in realistic terms. So the the Flash might indeed blitz and STILL have it not be that effective.

This board is so messed up. So you either didnt read the rules or didnt understand them pick one.

Originally posted by h1a8
Comics have shown that Flash sees things frozen in time. That means Kurse wouldn't be moving to him. Comics have also shown that Flash can IMP and steal speed. This is the reality that's in comics.

Any argument for flash is due to it BEING SHOWN IN COMICS. Full capacity rule helps flash do those things all the time (or more frequently). Yeah, even n00b members of the Flash-Family can perceive/react on an attosecond-by-attosecond basis, and also go 'intangible' via molecular vibration. In a forum battle Kurse isn't touching him. That said, the only way(s) for Flash to realistically *win* are via IMPs, and/or speed-stealing.

...Though I do wonder what type of effect(if any) a vibrational attack would have on Kurse -- something like this:
http://i.imgur.com/EcLFtN4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ObXnroS.jpg

mmm

No this Pillow Biter just wants to use PIS in fights lol. So yay! Deathstroke beat Flash and GL! Spider-Man beat Firelord! Hulk got choked out by a snake! F*ck yeah. Can't wait until the next Hulk debate. Snakes on a plane is this guys worst nightmare! It's probably like watching a horror film from Hulks POV.

Originally posted by Surtur
No this Pillow Biter just wants to use PIS in fights lol. So yay! Deathstroke beat Flash and GL! Spider-Man beat Firelord! Hulk got choked out by a snake! F*ck yeah. Can't wait until the next Hulk debate. Snakes on a plane is this guys worst nightmare! It's probably like watching a horror film from Hulks POV.

While I don't subscribe to a strict averaging, the concept in general is useful. See, Hulk doesn't really get choked out by snakes too often. As a result, we don't need a PIS rule to believe that the Hulk can beat a snake.

Or that the Flash is favored over Deathstroke. Why? Because if you look at the entirety of Deathstroke's history, you'd see that even going by the comics, Slade isn't typically going to beat someone on Flash's level despite one bad day at the office for him.

I understand the rules, it's just that the rules don't actually make as much sense as people think they do.

Originally posted by Surtur
No this Pillow Biter just wants to use PIS in fights lol. So yay! Deathstroke beat Flash and GL! Spider-Man beat Firelord! Hulk got choked out by a snake! F*ck yeah. Can't wait until the next Hulk debate. Snakes on a plane is this guys worst nightmare! It's probably like watching a horror film from Hulks POV. Why would we use PIS in the vs forum though? We arent making a comic that needs a plot

Exactly we are NOT writing a friggin comic book here. Some people can't grasp this. Is the difference between plot induced stupidity and character induced stupidity really so hard to get?

I mean if we're writing comic books here then where is my cut of the profits for these comic books? Gimme money.

Originally posted by Surtur
Exactly we are NOT writing a friggin comic book here. Some people can't grasp this. Is the difference between plot induced stupidity and character induced stupidity really so hard to get?

I mean if we're writing comic books here then where is my cut of the profits for these comic books? Gimme money. Whatever just let them ignore the simplest of rules and watch as they get laughed off the forum

I can just sum it up right quick: if I make a super hero with an IQ of 10, you can totally say he won't know to use super powers correctly.

Blatant PIS is actually much rarer than people think. And neither CIS nor PIS is what stops Flash from being an elite top tier and never getting hit. It's just comic book conventions, which are are different.
And the idea that by trying to identify, isolate, and remove this magical PIS you will now be able to evaluate fights with clarity, allowing for logic to shine through, is so 1999. Most battle boarders go through that stage, and then get past it, because the road doesn't go where you think it goes.

So yeah, we should in a way be writing our own comics. We should imagine how a fight would go if it were to be written next week. Of course in this case there is no specific plot that might influence results. And so heroes don't necessarily win as often as they do in comics. But we follow the broad conventions of the genre, such as the clear bias towards physical powers over esoteric ones. The prioritization of strength and durability over speed. Etc.

Is it within Flash's ability to stomp Kurse? Absolutely. He could go on an all-out speed blitz, he could Speed Force dump like SBP, he could IMP, he could vibrational rage like AM, he could phase through a counter attack the attosecond before Kurse made contact.

But, in 99.999% of appearances he doesn't do any of those things.

So can he win? Without any effort. Would he win in a comic? Absolutely not. We can all agree on that much I think

The rest of the "argument" is just arguing what the forum rules are and whether they're stupid. /thread.

see i don't see a stomp as possible at all even using forum flash. a speed force dump is the only viable sure win imo. imp? the dude took the entire energy of 2 hammers to just get ko'd. an imp barely took out one white martian.... speed steal isn't indefinite. the vibrational attack MIGHT work. uncertain. speed blitz ain't doing jack imo. flash DOES tire. kurse is essentially invulnerable and never tires.

yeah i really don't see a stomp here at all....

Originally posted by Cogito
But, in 99.999% of appearances he doesn't do any of those things. This is the case with almost every character we debate here, though. I know we like to *try* and find character-averages, but 99% of the time it's just the higher-end/one-off showings that get mentioned...And re-mentioned. Debated...And re-debated.

I think it just gets noticed more with Flash because some of the haxx shit within his powerset is just ludicrous.... It's not every day you see characters casually operating by the attosecond, for example. Those kind of feats definitely stand out(especially when people on the forum decide to take them to the extreme) -- which is why we get the "forum Flash sucks" faction. Understandably.

Originally posted by leonidas
speed steal isn't indefinite. Absorbing Kurse's speed/kinetic energy *should* render him inert long enough to constitute a forum win, imo. That is the only reason I see it as a viable tactic. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
This is the case with almost every character we debate here, though. I know we like to *try* and find character-averages, but 99% of the time it's just the higher-end/one-off showings that get mentioned...And re-mentioned. Debated...And re-debated.

I think it just gets noticed more with Flash because some of the haxx shit within his powerset is just ludicrous.... It's not every day you see characters casually operating by the attosecond, for example. Those kind of feats definitely stand out(especially when people on the forum decide to take them to the extreme) -- which is why we get the "forum Flash sucks" faction. Understandably.



i sorta count myself a member of that club, though i love flash. but when i say forum flash sux!!1! i mean he sucks in the way that he is almost impossible to match up and get good discussion out of. nothing (in my case) against the character itself..



ah. cool. i never really looked at it that way. what;s the longest anyone has remained completely inert? do you happen to know? he doesn't usually steal ALL kinetic energy afaik, though i'm sure he must have at some point.... that's an interesting point you raised.

Originally posted by leonidas


i sorta count myself a member of that club, though i love flash. but when i say forum flash sux!!1! i mean he sucks in the way that he is almost impossible to match up and get good discussion out of. nothing (in my case) against the character itself..
It's the same sort of thing we typically see in Sentry threads(especially recent Sentry threads.) The potential for a great discussion is there, but a few 'tards come in posting their BS, and it taints the entire thread for everyone. Of course this can(and has) happened with pretty much any character, but Flash and Sentry threads really stand out in that respect, lol.

Originally posted by leonidas
ah. cool. i never really looked at it that way. what;s the longest anyone has remained completely inert? do you happen to know? he doesn't usually steal ALL kinetic energy afaik, though i'm sure he must have at some point.... that's an interesting point you raised. After digging deep in the SF, Flash was able to freeze Inertia permanently:
http://i.imgur.com/Mj8iAvr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/K1A5yUO.jpg

Shown/mentioned again here:
http://i.imgur.com/0CyKPuv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VGyPZJs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oGLUUtM.jpg

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Blatant PIS is actually much rarer than people think. And neither CIS nor PIS is what stops Flash from being an elite top tier and never getting hit. It's just comic book conventions, which are are different.
And the idea that by trying to identify, isolate, and remove this magical PIS you will now be able to evaluate fights with clarity, allowing for logic to shine through, is so 1999. Most battle boarders go through that stage, and then get past it, because the road doesn't go where you think it goes.

So yeah, we should in a way be writing our own comics. We should imagine how a fight would go if it were to be written next week. Of course in this case there is no specific plot that might influence results. And so heroes don't necessarily win as often as they do in comics. But we follow the broad conventions of the genre, such as the clear bias towards physical powers over esoteric ones. The prioritization of strength and durability over speed. Etc.

No we shouldn't be writing our own comics because anything can happen in a comic. What you say should happen would then by no more valid then what I say would happen.

PIS is also rampant in comics. Every single Flash comic has it. Pretty much every Superman comic has it and the JLA comics are chalk full of it. Nobody said it gives clarity, it just removes some bullshit. Like any "so so and won't use their super speed" type of BS.

I disagree with your characterization of comics, and what PIS is and how it manifests itself. I think a very interesting discussion could be had on this topic, and a productive one. Even if it weren't aimed at changing the forum rules per se, it might help to clarify and illuminate them. However, this is probably the wrong place to do so.

And at the end of the day, I respect the right of the board owners to put down any rules they want. I've been on message boards for a long time, and lurked/posted here for many years as well. I guess at some point the rules were not quite so defined, and my understanding got stuck in that era. Now I see they are fairly defined. And it's annoying and disrespectful to go around ignoring them or cluttering up versus threads with stuff that for most posters is irrelevant, and even contrary, to the accepted norms and consensus here.
I'm sorry for that, and I'll stop, since it's not allowed. And I'm probably pretty close to getting banned. Again, I didn't understand how things work around here these days, but now I do. At some point I have to debate your way, or leave.
I remain undecided on that question, but wanted to apologize for any annoyance my ignorance may have caused.

P.S. Would there be an appropriate forum for pursuing a discussion about what CIS, PIS, and Full Capacity mean? I see no general comics discussion forum.

Originally posted by Surtur
Exactly we are NOT writing a friggin comic book here. Some people can't grasp this. Is the difference between plot induced stupidity and character induced stupidity really so hard to get?

I mean if we're writing comic books here then where is my cut of the profits for these comic books? Gimme money.

So if we are not accepting what is shown in comics, then why post scans? What's the point of providing scans in a debate where we are debating strictly off of powerset?

Originally posted by iceman24567
What if some of Flashes blood got in his eye?


A+ for creativity.

Originally posted by Galan007

It's the same sort of thing we typically see in Sentry threads(especially recent Sentry threads.) The potential for a great discussion is there, but a few 'tards come in posting their BS, and it taints the entire thread for everyone. Of course this can(and has) happened with pretty much any character, but Flash and Sentry threads really stand out in that respect, lol.

After digging deep in the SF, Flash was able to freeze Inertia permanently:
http://i.imgur.com/Mj8iAvr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/K1A5yUO.jpg

Shown/mentioned again here:
http://i.imgur.com/0CyKPuv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VGyPZJs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oGLUUtM.jpg

lol i remember that now. that was bad a$$.... i rescind my earlier comment then--speed steal would/could def count as a win.

Originally posted by carver9
So if we are not accepting what is shown in comics, then why post scans? What's the point of providing scans in a debate where we are debating strictly off of powerset? No. The only things that are argued are the things that are actually shown in comics. We just can't make up stuff that comics don't reasonably support.

There are contradictions in comics all the time. Jobbing happens, characters forgetting their powers (or not written with them) for the sake of the plot.

Flashes perceptions are always on (not sometimes). He will always view slow moving objects in slow motion (or at a standstill). If Flash gets hit by a slow moving enemy then that contradicts that his slow motion viewing perceptions.