Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Force. All-out.

Bonus Round: Darth Maul as of Rebels

SOD Maul wins, Bane puts a blind fold on and smashes Rebels Maul into pulp

Dessel sweeps.

Yeah, Bane takes both rounds handily.

Originally posted by MythLord
Dessel sweeps.

Cancur.

What kind of question is this? Bane, obviously

facepalm

Originally posted by MythLord
Dessel sweeps.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, Bane takes both rounds handily.
Originally posted by Balta Skywalker
What kind of question is this? Bane, obviously

Maul wins. Superior skills with sabers. Bane's lightning would do nothing to Maul; he would just shrug it off.

Maul handily

Originally posted by Kurk
Maul wins. Superior skills with sabers. Bane's lightning would do nothing to Maul; he would just shrug it off.

Based on?

Bane's lightning vaporises people, I'm pretty sure Maul isn't shrugging it off. Acting as if the lightning of some random Nightsister is comparable to Bane is ludicrous.

Maul being the best in over 2500 years impresses me more if I'm honest.

Going with him

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Maul being the best in over 2500 years impresses me more if I'm honest.

Going with him

One of the best. Lets not pretend that Bane isn't in that camp as well.

Bane's lightning got dodged by Hetton, lets not pretend his lightning really mean anything here

Originally posted by Nephthys
One of the best. Lets not pretend that Bane isn't in that camp as well.

Indeed. But this just puts Maul in the same camp as both Bane and Zannah don't it?

Agreed Bane beating featless Sirak, Kas'im, and fighting mook Jedi while protected by virtually impenetrable armor while amped by a nexus totes makes him comparable to Maul in lightsaber skill

Also breaking tents/throwing couches >> Maul bringing down an ETA shuttle

In the same camp =/= on par.

Otherwise Malak and Sheev are in the same camp because they're both called one of the most powerful Sith in Galactic history.

Let's not act like Bane/Zannah/Maul all being "one of the best in 25000 years" is somehow proof that Maul is on their level or above it.

The backtracking is pretty beautiful though.

Your buddy there brought up camps, hun.

I'm only offering a little comment

Probably Bane

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Your buddy there brought up camps, hun.

I'm only offering a little comment
No. You were suggesting Maul is superior because of being in that camp, even if you didn't use the word camp, which is a shitty argument.

Then Neph brought up that Bane and Zannah are in that camp as well and you backtracked from saying it makes Maul superior and acted like it made Maul on par with them, which is an even more shitty argument.

Kind of a complete fail all the way down.

Like your arguments normally are?

Originally posted by Nephthys
One of the best. Lets not pretend that Bane isn't in that camp as well. On what basis?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis?

Being called one of the most powerful Sith who ever lived?

Perhaps, but that says nothing of his skill as a combatant.

What about that quote that says hes the most knowledgeable and skilled Sith up to his time?

You mean the most knowledgable and masterful over Sith techniques? Not only false if assumed to be referring to all Sith in mythos, but still unrelated to skills as a combatant.

Anyway would anyone like to present reasoning for Bane's victory?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
No. You were suggesting Maul is superior because of being in that camp, even if you didn't use the word camp, which is a shitty argument.

So i was suggesting somthing....even though I didn't use the word that would suggest something?

That doesn't make sense.



Nope, he said Bane was in the same camp as those that have been referred to as "one of the best." he didn't mention Zannah, I mentioned her.



Wrong again, but that's nothing new.

See hun, i mentioned these "camps" because he brought the matter up. He stated that Bane was in that same camp, and I stated that Zannah was as well. Now, given the context of the quote Maul is better trained than a vast majority of the Banite Sith, so no matter who is in that "camp" Maul - by virtue of Banite Power scaling and the Quote - is superior to Bane and Zannah.

Never did I say Maul was an equal to these character in my second post, the comment was merely meant to be sarcastic and to prove a point. It would be unwise to "backtrack" from my original statement, and idiotic given how Neph said nothing that warrants a concession.

So why don't you go back to your "elite" little club house on Hangouts and enjoy the drama you claim to despise, instead of shouting inaccuracies, hmm?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anyway would anyone like to present reasoning for Bane's victory?

Two words.

Temple. Feat.

Concede Beni

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You mean the most knowledgable and masterful over Sith techniques? Not only false if assumed to be referring to all Sith in mythos, but still unrelated to skills as a combatant.

It says "skill".

Bane defeated Kas'im, who is certainly one of the most skilled Sith in history. Apart from a deliberate gap in Bane's training, Kas'im could do nothing that Bane wasn't able to counter. Bane has also shown top levels of combat related Force techniques; disintegration, force drain, incinerating lightning, force bubbles, ion storms. I don't see how mastery of Sith techniques is unrelated to combat skills when many such techniques are combat related and he has access to techniques from some of the best Sith ever. His abilities in terms of strength, speed and skill are also certainly in the upper calibers of the mythos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It Bane has also shown top levels of combat related Force techniques; disintegration,
On fodder.



On a nexus and on people literally regarded as Fodder.



On fodder



The Drexl thing? Reallg?



https://youtu.be/bQMRzUegZWE

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
See hun, i mentioned these "camps" because he brought the matter up. He stated that Bane was in that same camp, and I stated that Zannah was as well. Now, given the context of the quote Maul is better trained than a vast majority of the Banite Sith, so no matter who is in that "camp" Maul - by virtue of Banite Power scaling and the Quote - is superior to Bane and Zannah.

Never did I say Maul was an equal to these character in my second post, the comment was merely meant to be sarcastic and to prove a point. It would be unwise to "backtrack" from my original statement, and idiotic given how Neph said nothing that warrants a concession.

There's no such context, you're just trying to save face.

I'm pretty sure we know that your statement said nothing, it was just a stupid comment to make that proved no point and was, yeah, kind of idiotic.

Bane, lmfao.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
So i was suggesting somthing....even though I didn't use the word that would suggest something?

That doesn't make sense.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Maul being the best in over 2500 years impresses me more if I'm honest.

Going with him
I'm pretty sure that's what you explicitly said actually.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Nope, he said Bane was in the same camp as those that have been referred to as "one of the best." he didn't mention Zannah, I mentioned her.
So you're saying "one of the best" is different from "the best in over 2500 years"

If you're actually saying Maul is the best in over 2500 years, then you're even more retarded then I thought.

Also you mentioning Zannah doesn't even remotely change the point I'm making, so don't act like nitpicking those semantics means jack shit.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Wrong again, but that's nothing new.
If I gathered every time you were wrong about some thing and backtracked by claiming you were saying something other than what you were saying I could write a book longer than the bible.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
See hun,
I am not your hun. I know you're extremely sexually frustrated in Aurbere's absence, but that's no reason to make this weirdly personal

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
i mentioned these "camps" because he brought the matter up. He stated that Bane was in that same camp, and I stated that Zannah was as well. Now, given the context of the quote Maul is better trained than a vast majority of the Banite Sith, so no matter who is in that "camp" Maul - by virtue of Banite Power scaling and the Quote - is superior to Bane and Zannah.
Banite scaling (ie. each generation being stronger) only applies to people who have actually... you know... surpassed their masters. Otherwise Maul>Sheev

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Never did I say Maul was an equal to these character in my second post, the comment was merely meant to be sarcastic and to prove a point. It would be unwise to "backtrack" from my original statement, and idiotic given how Neph said nothing that warrants a concession.
If you can actually prove the claim that Maul is the best in 2500 years you might have a point.

But I haven't seen the quote for that, and it's kinda contradicted by the fact that Sidious and Plagueis predate him and blatantly shit all over him, so unless you can prove that it's kinda just you being retarded tbh.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
So why don't you go back to your "elite" little club house on Hangouts and enjoy the drama you claim to despise, instead of shouting inaccuracies, hmm?
Funny how the guy accusing me of liking drama is the one bringing personal shit into this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It says "skill".Yeah in relation to mastery over Force techniques, which is great and all but in reality all Bane appears to be combatively capable of in that regard is shooting lighting and TK, nothing special.Well actually he was defeated in sabers, destroyed even. The only reason he was doing well before was because 1. intimate knowledge of Kas'im's style 2. sheer power, he has none of those advantages here.But again, how much of that does he actually use in combat, Force lightning and TK are basic bread and butter abilities. Force drain and ion storms he's only ever used against fodder, Force bubbles is another basic ability, at least in the Bane books.Perhaps, though frankly Maul rivals his physical feats in Lockdown, when he wasn't even using the Force. Nor does his level of lightsaber training on level with Maul's. Indeed Bane's abilities have only ever been tested against his contemporaries. Certainly against Kas'im, who has the best cross-era credentials, he ended up rather outclassed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no such context, you're just trying to save face.

I'm pretty sure we know that your statement said nothing, it was just a stupid comment to make that proved no point and was, yeah, kind of idiotic.

LMAO Now that's ironic. Neph you've seen my comments, rarely, if ever do I give a damn about what majority think about me.

It's funny how you specifically highlighted bullshit, petty insults and drama as being sucky and a negative thing in Temps thread and here you are doing nothing but shitpost and insult dmb.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
On fodder.


On a nexus and on people literally regarded as Fodder.


On fodder


The Drexl thing? Reallg?


https://youtu.be/bQMRzUegZWE

Pretty sure no-ones disintegrated anything but fodder., cuz.

Irrelevant.

Irrelevant again. Incinerating fodder is still in the highest levels of Force Lightning. Besides, Maul can't even fry a noodle, lol.

No. In DoE he blocks concussion grenades and later he uses that thing to block Zannah's lightsaber.

When he's escaping the prison. He unleashes a ion storm that absorbs blaster bolts and melts the blasters of the guards.

Yeah, its not like Bane's lightning was dodged by a fodder character like Hetton . Or that Bane's unamped TK feats are garbage compared to Maul.

Maul still has a galactic unbalancing of the Force to boost most of his feats, so the nexus argument cancels itself out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah in relation to Force techniques, which is great and all but in reality all Bane appears to be combatively capable of in that regard is shooting lighting and TK, nothing special.

What, opposed to Maul who can't even do half of those things?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well actually he was defeated in sabers, destroyed even. The only reason he was doing well before was because 1. intimate knowledge of Kas'im's style 2. sheer power, he has none of those advantages here.

No, Bane destroyed Kas'im in a fair fight. Kas'im then exploited a gap he'd created in Bane's capabilities. And Kas'im's style was every lightsaber form perfected to it's highest degree, so intimate knowledge of that, when Bane was mainly focusing on his own techniques instead of studying Kas'im's, is a pretty freaking high degree of skill.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But again, how much of that does he actually use in combat, Force lighting and TK are basic bread and butter abilities. Force drain and ion storms he's only ever used against fodder, Force bubbles is another basic ability, at least in the Bane books.

Pretty sure he uses them more than Maul does. That doesn't matter though, you asked me to prove Bane's combat skill. The fact that he's capable in a wide variety of advanced combat techniques is proof.

Force bubble isn't a basic ability in any era.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Perhaps, though frankly Maul rivals his physical feats in Lockdown, when he wasn't even using the Force. Nor does his level of lightsaber training on level with Maul's. Indeed Bane's abilities have only ever been tested against his contemporaries. Certainly against Kas'im, who has the best cross-era credentials, he ended up rather outclassed.

Bane has displayed a far higher learning rate than Maul, so his lightsaber training doesn't mean much other than that Bane's mastered just as much as he did in a shorter amount of time. Maul also did more training than Obi-Wan, we saw how that turned out. And Kas'im did way more training than Bane and was still driven into a panicked retreat by him.

Also I'm pretty sure everyones abilities have only ever been tested against their contemporaries. Since you know, it would kind of be impossible to do anything else, lol.

Pls friends, keep the catfights out of it. This is a nice clean thread in which to discuss Bane's inferiority to Maul.

And that's nice Ziggy, but there is no actual proof the unbalancing in the Force "boosted" is powers, or that if such a boost occurred, it was not permanent. In fact, Maul doesn't even notice the imbalance until his return during the Clone Wars.

There is not a statement claiming Bane's Force abilties were boosted on Lehnon either, so I guess we can just use those feats, and say he'll liquidate Maul with a Force push.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What, opposed to Maul who can't even do half of those things? You mean he can't do Force lightning. Not that big a deal.
Yeah by abusing his Force advantage, which he does not have here. The gap being Bane's knowledge of his opponents fighting style, hint, he knows nothing of Maul's fighting style, and worse yet, its rather similar to the style Kas'im used to trash him.Yeah, in relation to a non-fodder engagement. And pretty much everyone in Drew's novels is throwing up shields to prevent their bones being crushed, organs pulped yadda yadda yadda. Maul has been Force pushed without that shit happening to him either, so I guess he has this power.On what basis?Yeah, Obi-Wan lost...Until he wasn't. mmmYes, but unlike Maul Bane's combat skills haven't been said to be the among the best in mythos. And was shat on by someone's who'd had.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
There is not a statement claiming Bane's Force abilties were boosted on Lehnon either, so I guess we can just use those feats, and say he'll liquidate Maul with a Force push.

We can and should, yes.

Also we can say that Maul was doubly-amped because of the affect the Force unbalancing had on the Jedi ala mace windu -

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
There is not a statement claiming Bane's Force abilties were boosted on Lehnon either, so I guess we can just use those feats, and say he'll liquidate Maul with a Force push. Like he liquidated Kas'im?Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Also we can say that Maul was doubly-amped because of the affect the Force unbalancing had on the Jedi ala mace windu - In regards to their farsight abilities, not exactly combat relevant though.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm pretty sure that's what you explicitly said actually.

Prior to that camp thing yeah.



Yeah? Being one of the best is vague in context, the Maul quotes gives a range of years and Sith Lords to scale off of. Like the Dooku quote, he's one of the best in the orders 25.000 year old history versus Malaks "one of the best" quote. There's a huge difference wouldn't you say?


It's like Tachi's quote of being the Best lightsaber fighter in the entire temple, we're given that quote with no context or mention of the master's so...suddenly she's master tier? As a padawan? No because obviously someone like Jinn, by virtue of feats" the most celebrated master quote, is obviously superior to her.



No he's not the best, counts as one of the best right? The argument here is that given that each generation of Master and Apprentice grows in power, that Maul would be above several Banite Sith, likely above Bane and Zannah through scaling. His quote about being better trained than most Sith in the last 2500 or so years just adds to that.



If you're gonna make a point, make sure it's correct.



Noted.



Thats rich coming from you.


Please, I'm not Marco lol
It also states each generation grew more powerful so...



This would assume he's better than Tenebrous tho :mmm:



You didn't quote anything with a quote so which one are you referring to?





Dude, Elite bullet or whatever ain't a big secret. And you lost rights to secret club when Syn spilled the beans on here buddy

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Pls friends, keep the catfights out of it. This is a nice clean thread in which to discuss Bane's inferiority to Maul.

And that's nice Ziggy, but there is no actual proof the unbalancing in the Force "boosted" is powers, or that if such a boost occurred, it was not permanent. In fact, Maul doesn't even notice the imbalance until his return during the Clone Wars.

I think that's because the Force doesn't really come out of balance in any meaningful way until around the time the Clone Wars occur in canon.

I've always preferred the idea that it's a result of Sheev's machinations, not literally because he knocked it off balance because of ritual. That's one thing I won't miss about Legends.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You mean he can't do Force lightning. Not that big a deal.

You're the one who made it a big deal that Bane knowing loads of advanced force abilities doesn't matter because he only uses TK and lightning (kind of like Sidious and Valkorion tbh), you don't see how that also reflects of Maul who doesn't know any of those abilities AND can't use lightning?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah by abusing his Force advantage, which he does not have here. The gap being Bane's knowledge of his opponents fighting style, hint, he knows nothing of Maul's fighting style, and worse yet, its rather similar to the style Kas'im used to trash him.

Uh, wut? SoD Maul uses the Darksaber only. He goes single-blade style. Just like Bane. Who would be even more familiar with that style than he would double-bladed style. So good try? And knowing Kas'im's moves was only half of it, Bane was also able to counter them all and gain the upper hand, while Kas'im was not able to do the same to Bane.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, in relation to a non-fodder engagement. And pretty much everyone in Drew's novels is throwing up shields to prevent their bones being crushed, organs pulped yadda yadda yadda. Maul has been Force pushed without that shit happening to him either, so I guess he has this power.

That's not relevant to this. You asked me to prove Bane's combat skill. That Bane knows several advanced combat abilities is entirely relevant, however. Especially when compared to Maul, who only uses TK. So is more skilled in this regard than Maul, then he certainly merits being one of the most skilled in history.

You're thinking of basic force shields, which yeah everyone can do. I'm talking about a full on Force Bubble.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis?

PoD. It's a decent book, you should read it. Bane's learning rate in it is pretty nuts.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, Obi-Wan lost...

Maul lost a lot more than Obi-Wan did in that duel. But he also didn't lose in TCW when he whooped him and his bro at the same time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Until he wasn't. mmm

Irrelevant to this discussion. In a fair fight Bane was kicking his ass. In terms of actual combat ability, Bane is Kas'ims superior. And DoE Bane is vastly superior to the Bane who was beating Kas'im.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes, but unlike Maul Bane's combat skills haven't been said to be the among the best in mythos. And was shat on by someone's who'd had.

You're being obnoxious. You know the circumstances with Kas'im turning the tables. Please drop this attitude if you want to continue the discussion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're the one who made it a big deal that Bane knowing loads of advanced force abilities doesn't matter because he only uses TK and lightning (kind of like Sidious and Valkorion tbh), you don't see how that also reflects of Maul who doesn't know any of those abilities AND can't use lightning?Not when combatively lightning is Maul's only shortcoming. Which he can probably just block with his lightsaber.He resorted to dual-wielding against Sidious, no reason to rule out him doing the same here.

And yes because again, Bane was too powerful. He moved beyond forms
My point is its not a advanced Force ability, but when does Bane generate a complete Force bubble in combat?I have, but naturally to make a comparison you have to, compare. Give it a try.Ha ha ha, but jokes aside Maul defeated him in lightsaber combat, as every source on the fight attests to. Neither did Kenobi ever actually overcome Maul in TCW, and was fighting in an amped state due to Gallia's death, on top of catching Maul off-guard with an uncharacteristically aggressive offense.
Quite. Because none of the advantages he had against Kas'im there he has against Maul here. Skill never being among them.All I'm pointing out dear is that its not very good proof Bane is on par with Maul as a duelist when Kas'im was clearly the better swordsman, no need to get your knickers in a twist.

>Kas'im
>better swordsman than DoE Bane
> Jesus H. Christ

Bane in both rounds, lol.

I just looked at some panels for SoD and Maul doesn't have a lightsaber on his belt he only has the Darksaber. Guess he lost it when Sidious made him his *****.

That might well be the case, if so fair enough, he'll have to make do spanking him with one.Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
>Kas'im
>better swordsman than DoE Bane
> Jesus H. Christ

Bane in both rounds, lol. Your appreciation of Bane disgusts me.

Beni, can you name three members on KMC that like you?

Me

I'm cool with him. He can tolerate and is patient with Nephs horrible debating skills so he's good in my book

Pretty sure Ant deep down, has a special place for me in his heart too. So that makes three.

"Ant"......... "heart".........


https://media.giphy.com/media/IFaV9X6Y9H2WQ/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Yeah? Being one of the best is vague in context, the Maul quotes gives a range of years and Sith Lords to scale off of. Like the Dooku quote, he's one of the best in the orders 25.000 year old history versus Malaks "one of the best" quote. There's a huge difference wouldn't you say?

It's like Tachi's quote of being the Best lightsaber fighter in the entire temple, we're given that quote with no context or mention of the master's so...suddenly she's master tier? As a padawan? No because obviously someone like Jinn, by virtue of feats" the most celebrated master quote, is obviously superior to her.
Yeah there is a difference between a range of years and Bane/Malak/Sheev/others being stated to be some of the most powerful Sith Lords in history.

I'm pretty sure anyone with a first grade education can tell you history>a range of years

And also Tachi's quote said "one of" the best lightsaber fighters, not the best. It seems you can't even properly recall the accolades of your own characters and you're accusing me of making incorrect points and spreading false information?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
No he's not the best, counts as one of the best right? The argument here is that given that each generation of Master and Apprentice grows in power, that Maul would be above several Banite Sith, likely above Bane and Zannah through scaling. His quote about being better trained than most Sith in the last 2500 or so years just adds to that.
Unless you can prove jack shit about how the size of the Banite gap compares to the size of the gap between Maul and Sidious you have no point here, and that can only be done by a comparison of Maul and Bane, making Banite scaling completely pointless.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
If you're gonna make a point, make sure it's correct.
That wasn't the point though, it was you bitching about semantics to try and save face.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Please, I'm not Marco lol
It also states each generation grew more powerful so...

This would assume he's better than Tenebrous tho :mmm:
You do realize by the logic you're pushing Maul>Plagueis and Sidious... right? And that's completely ****ing retarded, so clearly each generation being more powerful than the last doesn't apply to the generation after Sidious's.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You didn't quote anything with a quote so which one are you referring to?
The one that started this whole fiasco about Maul being the best in 2500 years or some shit.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Dude, Elite bullet or whatever ain't a big secret. And you lost rights to secret club when Syn spilled the beans on here buddy
Nah I'm talking about you accusing me of being the dramatic one when you're bringing up random shit (ie. Bullet Club) that has nothing to do with our debate to insult me.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Dude, Elite bullet or whatever ain't a big secret. And you lost rights to secret club when Syn spilled the beans on here buddy

Wait, DMB's copying CoD just because he wasn't invited the first time? mmm

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Me

Liar. We all must hate Beni for refusing to sacrifice in the name of ruining Ant's respect thread mmm

"My reward for the game: Whoever makes Beniboybling an hero - and broadcast the event live for all us to see - gets to add, remove, or change 10,000 characters worth of my Revan Respect Thread."

Beni, you're an ****

Originally posted by Selenial
Wait, DMB's copying CoD just because he wasn't invited the first time? mmm
Nah other SW debaters on CV invited me to a google hangout. Huge difference.

And I was invited to CoD, I just didn't accept.

@DMB, in all fairness by Banite scaling the combative training afforded by Maul should blow Bane's out of the water.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@DMB, in all fairness by Banite scaling the combative training afforded by Maul should blow Bane's out of the water.

http://puu.sh/qrBDE/1c27eba695.jpg

Dry those tears, Maul's just better.

Force: Bane, 10/10, grueling fights.
All-out: Maul, 6-7/10, grueling fights.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@DMB, in all fairness by Banite scaling the combative training afforded by Maul should blow Bane's out of the water.
Yet Maul doesn't demonstrate anywhere near the mastery of the Force that Bane does. Not in how quickly he began to master saber combat, not in Force techniques, and not in his ability to comprehend arcane Force abilities. Via what Palpatine put Maul through his speed with a saber is clearly up there, but he doesn't show feats that would convince me that he could stand against Bane all out.

If you like you can provide quotes, but from the excerpts of the trilogy that I recall Sidious saw several weakness in Maul and that is part of the reason that he didn't warn him of what he sensed when he sent him against Qui-gon and Kenobi.

And speaking of that duel, I'd certainly give Bane that victory if he'd been on planet facing Kenobi and Qui-gon, and in shorter order. Anyway, peak Bane vs any iteration of Maul goes to Bane via his combat showings as well as his demonstration of Force mastery. I think it's foolish to pretend that someone with almost no skills beyond his blade and precognition isn't going to have difficulty against someone able to disintegrate bodies via the Force.

Bane in all but dueling, they should be so close there that Bane's mastery of the Force changes the game.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
snip

I am not trying to save face, old friend. That's it.

However, Neph is right, this devolved into sarcastic quibs from me and insults from you. You're response is justified.

My deepest apologies. I remain adamant in my belief that Maul is better, if you would like we can continue debating in a civil manner,like the old days, if not then we won't. I leave it up to you.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Yet Maul doesn't demonstrate anywhere near the mastery of the Force that Bane does. Not in how quickly he began to master saber combat, not in Force techniques, and not in his ability to comprehend arcane Force abilities. Via what Palpatine put Maul through his speed with a saber is clearly up there, but he doesn't show feats that would convince me that he could stand against Bane all out.Bane's mastery of the Force, as I've prior explained, combatively only gives him the ability to wield Force lightning, and I ask once again what evidence there is Bane took to saber combat far more quickly than Maul, when he fully mastered Niman in the fraction of the minimum 10 years required to do so, alongside Jar'Kai, Ataru and the most difficult and demanding of the forms of all, Juyo. All which he had perfected by the age of 20.Sidious considered Maul's skills "flawless", his death on Naboo a true loss and had intended for him to serve a greater role in the Grand Plan as his Sith apprentice, so I can't imagine what excerpts your referring to.Maul only lost that fight do to overconfidence, as far combat was concerned he had them beaten. The duel was lengthy but only because Maul chose to separate Jinn and Kenobi before defeating them. In reality Maul was fending off their combined assault with contemptible ease, described as possessing skills that near eclipsed them both combined and on Tatooine Jinn was described as barely escaping with his life, despite Maul being injured and keep his saberstaff in reserve.

Regardless considering in his prime he was ragdolling Kenobi and blitzing Savage, I imagine he'd defeat Jinn and Kenobi in much shorter order indeed.
Almost no skills beyond his blade and precognition? He possesses physical prowess that surpass Bane's own, is a master of numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, is his equal as a telekinetic, and a tactical genius.

On the other hand Bane has lightning, and can disintegrate bodies with the Force. So I suppose Maul is losing to Bandon and Kajin Savaros now?

EDIT: My mistake, Maul's training was complete age 17, not 20.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not when combatively lightning is Maul's only shortcoming. Which he can probably just block with his lightsaber.

You mean on top of the other techniques Maul lacks. But no, obviously Maul is more skilled despite having far less skills than Bane does. Obviously. Maul blocking lightning is irrelevant (although, can you actually block lightning with the Darksaber?) to the discussion of whether Bane is one of the most skilled Sith in history.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He resorted to dual-wielding against Sidious, no reason to rule out him doing the same here.

And yes because again, Bane was too powerful. He moved beyond forms

Already dealt with. Maul has no advantage here, and Bane is even more familiar with single saber style than he is double-bladed.

You act as if Bane is some noob who only won by being strong. Bane still had to use his own skills to win, he didn't just club him into submission. It's a testament to his skill that he could anticipate, react, counter and nullify every "every possible sequence, series, move, and trick" Kas'im could attempt, which is every move of every form. Without Kas'im able to do the same to Bane, when Kas'im is far more familiar with Bane's techniques than Bane is with Kas'im's. Bane beat him with his own techniques. Bane can do the same to Maul's single saber style. Bane still created an impenetrable defense using his own skills. He defeated Kas'im with his own skills. He wouldn't have been able to gain the upper hand without his own skills being hugely advanced.

Also did the rest of your reply get cut off here?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
My point is its not a advanced Force ability, but when does Bane generate a complete Force bubble in combat?

I see you've conceded the first paragraph. Good.

It is, Force Bubbles are a more advanced defense than your standard force shields and barriers. I already posted, he does it in DoE.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I have, but naturally to make a comparison you have to, compare. Give it a try.

I don't have to post evidence for Maul, that's your job. Bane's learning rate in PoD is insane, he masters Force Lightning in an hour. He outmatches the greatest living swordsman in a yearish of training. Post something comparable for Maul.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ha ha ha, but jokes aside Maul defeated him in lightsaber combat, as every source on the fight attests to. Neither did Kenobi ever actually overcome Maul in TCW, and was fighting in an amped state due to Gallia's death, on top of catching Maul off-guard with an uncharacteristically aggressive offense.

Uncharacteristically aggressive? When has Kenobi fought Maul without going on the aggressive? And he wasn't amped, he was just fighting at his best.

The fact is that many are every bit as skilled or competent as Maul is with a fraction of the training. Bane included. Bane also had far more time to grow his skills than Maul did, with a much greater learning rate.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Quite. Because none of the advantages he had against Kas'im there he has against Maul here. Skill never being among them.

Bane is more powerful than Maul and he knows his own style better than he does Kas'im's, as is made clear in the book.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
All I'm pointing out dear is that its not very good proof Bane is on par with Maul as a duelist when Kas'im was clearly the better swordsman, no need to get your knickers in a twist.

And I've told you time and again that Kas'im was not the better swordsman. Bane thoroughly bested him in a fair fight. Kindly accept this fact or offer a counter-argument for why Kas'im is better despite getting his ass kicked until he cheated. Maul doesn't have the option to go dual-sabers here. He can't pull the same trick Kas'im did.

Just because Maul doesn't have 2 Sabers that doesn't negate his level of Duelling skill.

His mastery of the Saber Staff and wielding dual Sabers just demonstrates his level of skill. Doesn't mean he specifically needs them to win a fight. After all he challenged both Windu and Secura combined with that single badass Dark Saber.


Also who says Maul had trained longer than Obi-Wan by TPM?

Beni suggested that Maul could use dual sabers to beat Bane just like Kas'im did. He can't. Beni also said that Bane partly had an advantage over Kas'im because of his familiarity with double-blades lightsaber style. Bane is more familiar with single bladed style.

So Maul using 1 saber is relevant in these regards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean on top of the other techniques Maul lacks. But no, obviously Maul is more skilled despite having far less skills than Bane does. Obviously. Maul blocking lightning is irrelevant (although, can you actually block lightning with the Darksaber?) to the discussion of whether Bane is one of the most skilled Sith in history.No I don't, combatively speaking Bane has nothing else, which is what's relevant to this discussion. Nor does quantity translate into quality, otherwise Maul wins by default since he's mastered at least twice as many forms as Bane.

And seeing as the Darksaber is a kind of lightsaber, I would assume so.
Nope it's all there.

Anyway you're attempt at strawmanning aside, though his skills evidently played a role in allowing him to channel his power effectively, it was power and power alone to which Bane's victory is attributed to. The fact that instead of trying to think through Kas'im's moves he surrendered his autonomy to the dark side and let it fight for him, speaking volumes as to how first and foremost, yes, Bane was beating Kas'im into submission with a proverbial Force clubo assuming he can come close to replicating this against Maul entirely without a massive Force advantage is to employ terribly flawed reasoning.

As for Bane being "hugely advanced in skill", not so when in his own opinion his saber talent was "no match" for Kas'im, who he concedes to be the better duelist:Wrong again I'm afraid, as I said a Force bubble is not a particularly special or rare application of the Force. But if you want to assume Bane is one of the most skilled Sith in history because he can wield Force lightning and use flashy techniques against fodder opponents then that's your business. But considering how limited he is in applicable Force techniques here I couldn't care less. Whereas on the other hand none of that proves Bane is a match for Maul in martial skill, and he can match Bane's TK and block his lightning just fine.No friend, you actually need to complete your line of reasoning to prove your point.

But very well, I'll help you out by getting ball rolling; as I explained to Ascendancy he mastered Niman, Ataru, Jar'Kai, Juyo and likely more besides (considering the impenetrable defence he offered against Jinn and Kenobi, I'd say Soresu), to level of perfection that placed him among the most skilled Sith in history, in the space of seven years, five of which he spent at the Osiris Academy in which he had only intermittent contact with his master, where it would have taken a Jedi at least a decade to master Niman alone, and logically several decades more to master the other forms. And not only that ended up utterly outclassing those, like Jinn, who had.

In comparison in one year of dedicated training, PoD Bane got really good, but remained "no match" in skill to one of the aforementioned (or at least supposedly) greatest duelists in mythos. Now here's the part where you explain to me how despite that Bane's growth rate is significantly better than Maul's, or better at all.It may surprise you friend but Kenobi's primary form is actually Soresu. Whereas yes, he became uncharacteristically aggressive according to the novelisation:And my point was he had a mental advantage, yet despite that failed to defeat Maul.No there aren't, Kenobi was outclassed by Maul at the same age, and only after gaining a decade of training over him and two years of battlefield experience was he able to compete. Jinn had 40 years on Maul and was prodigy among the Jedi, and yet was thrashed by the twentysomething regardless. Likewise Maul is able to swing with the likes of Dooku and Windu, despite both having many many decades of training and experience on him; no, rather it's a testament to Maul's tutelage and innate talent that he is able to compare despite having a fraction of their training.

On the other hand if we wish to change the goal posts and argue that Bane too has the advantage of years over Maul then fair enough, but much like them he's playing catchup. At Maul's age Bane is far from as capable a duelist, and I'm seeing no feats that suggest he became one as of DoE.On what basis? His Lehon feat? Destroying some tents? Bane may be more masterful in the dark side but I'm seeing no evidence he is more powerful, and if anything Maul has an edge over him in regards to physical prowess.

And I assume you mean Kas'im knows Bane's own style better than Bane knows Kas'im's. Which while true doesn't alter the fact that Bane knows nothing of how Maul fights, so he still doesn't have that advantage.Cheated?

Using a style your opponent is unfamiliar with hardly excuses getting trashed when he eclipsed Kas'im's Force abilities by a mile. No, ultimately he lost because Kas'im was the better swordsman. Something again Bane plainly admits:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bane's mastery of the Force, as I've prior explained, combatively only gives him the ability to wield Force lightning, and I ask once again what evidence there is Bane took to saber combat far more quickly than Maul, when he fully mastered Niman in the fraction of the minimum 10 years required to do so, alongside Jar'Kai, Ataru and the most difficult and demanding of the forms of all, Juyo. All which he had perfected by the age of 20.

I'm just going to answer this as I've already answered all your other points above and Neph reiterated the problems with your argument below. If Bane showing disintegration and Force Bubbles against real foes somehow means he can't use it against Maul you're going to have to come up with something very convincing for that.

Yes, Maul mastered them more quickly than most, but Bane was a completely learned swordsman within a year or so of tutelage under Kas'im and dueling with the other Sith. You can reread his battles and the excerpts if you like, but his mastery of the forms was all but complete, and he wasn't raised in the presence of a single master intent on training only him from the start the way that Maul was.

Bane's rate of retention was higher than Maul's, his mastery was greater, and his feats with the blade show him to be a better duelist in a shorter period of time. Lastly, his feats as of DoE show him to possess speed beyond what Maul has demonstrated, even at his best.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I'm just going to answer this as I've already answered all your other points above and Neph reiterated the problems with your argument below.You've haven't but OK. Something very convincing? Bane has never successfully disintegrated an individual of Maul's power, nor has he managed to employ a Force bubble in a heated engagement, the burden of proof is in you to demonstrate he can.You mean far more quickly than any of his contemporaries. And learned swordsman =/= among the most skilled in history, considering he remained outmatched as a swordsman to his master evidently there was much room for improvement. If only any of that were true.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No I don't, combatively speaking Bane has nothing else, which is what's relevant to this discussion. Nor does quantity translate into quality, otherwise Maul wins by default since he's mastered at least twice as many forms as Bane.

And seeing as the Darksaber is a kind of lightsaber, I would assume so.

Jesus, this really isn't the hill you want to be dying on here Beni. Just concede and eat some crow. So combatively Bane has nothing more except for far more than Maul does? Gosh yeah, you sure kicked my ass there. And no, whats relevant this this discussion is how skilled Bane is. The fact that he is highly skilled in many advanced combat techniques is proof of how skilled he is. You seem to keep missing this point, so I'm just going to repeat it until you figure it out. I have confidence you'll get there some day. And just because Bane's main techniques are TK and lightning doesn't make him less skilled or anything. That's what most Sith's main offensive abilities are (y'know, except for Maul lol), like Sidious, Plagueis, Malgus etc. But if you want quality then we can look at how Bane is capable of disintegrating opponents, an advanced level of TK ability beyond Maul's grasp. but no maul can push poeple and choke them obviuusly hes the beeeest

Also I'm pretty sure Bane's mastered at least as many forms as Maul has.

It's not a standard blade and its thin as shit. IDK, you'd be hard pressed to block lightning with that.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope it's all there.

Anyway you're attempt at strawmanning aside, though his skills evidently played a role in allowing him to channel his power effectively, it was power and power alone to which Bane's victory is attributed to. The fact that instead of trying to think through Kas'im's moves he surrendered his autonomy to the dark side and let it fight for him, speaking volumes as to how first and foremost, yes, Bane was beating Kas'im into submission with a proverbial Force club:

So assuming he can come close to replicating this against Maul entirely without a massive Force advantage is to employ terribly flawed reasoning.

As for Bane being "hugely advanced in skill", not so when in his own opinion his saber talent was "no match" for Kas'im, who he concedes to be the better duelist:

Oh I assumed you had a more complete argument than that or something.

Lol, you can't accuse me of strawmanning and then make the very same argument. Bane had the edge due to his power, yeah. But when it came down to a contest between Bane and a master of all lightsaber forms to their highest degree, the fact that the only significant factor was power is itself a testament to Bane's skill. There was no flaw in Bane's abilities that Kas'im could exploit to gain the upper hand and Bane's absolute knowledge of dueling allowed him to nullify every move Kas'im could possibly attempt.

And wtf, every Jedi and Sith tries to become an extension of the Force. That's like the highest level of combat as Kas'im makes clear in the very book.

"The goal was to become an extension of the dark side itself."

"Your saber has become an extension of the dark side."

Also it's clear in the book that duelists don't actually turn their brains off, the whole point is in knowing the techniques well enough that every possibility is instinctively known and you perform the moves without effort. Otherwise Kas'im trick wouldn't work, Bane wouldn't need to think of the dual blades possibilities.

Oh my jesus christ. facepalm2 I gave you the benefit of the doubt because of Temp's thread but I think at this point it's really looking like you are just trying troll me. Bane said that after Kas'im pulled out the second saber. He was no match for Kas'im in that state. It isn't relevant here.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wrong again I'm afraid, as I said a Force bubble is not a particularly special or rare application of the Force. But if you want to assume Bane is one of the most skilled Sith in history because he can wield Force lightning and use flashy techniques against fodder opponents then that's your business. But considering how limited he is in applicable Force techniques here I couldn't care less. Whereas on the other hand none of that proves Bane is a match for Maul in martial skill, and he can match Bane's TK and block his lightning just fine.

Lol, dude I'm just having some fun here. Lets not pretend I'm taking the idea that Bane isn't one of the most skilled Sith in history with the the slightest bit of seriousness. Anyway.

I mean, you saying it isn't rare sure is compelling. But I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Like I said, barrier and shield are the basic abilities and bubble is the more advanced version. Sorry not sorry to tell you. He's still less limited than Maul is tho.

Maul has never blocked lightning ever. I guess that's something else Bane has on him.....

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ic97mPViHEG5O/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No friend, you actually need to complete your line of reasoning to prove your point.

But very well, I'll help you out by getting ball rolling; as I explained to Ascendancy he mastered Niman, Ataru, Jar'Kai, Juyo and likely more besides (considering the impenetrable defense he offered against Jinn and Kenobi, I'd say Soresu), to level of perfection that placed him among the most skilled Sith in history, in the space of seven years, five of which he spent at the Osiris Academy in which he had only intermittent contact with his master, where it would have taken a Jedi at least a decade to master Niman alone, and logically several decades more to master the other forms. And not only that ended up utterly outclassing those, like Jinn, who had.

In comparison in one year of dedicated training, PoD Bane got really good, but remained "no match" in skill to one of the aforementioned (or at least supposedly) greatest duelists in mythos. Now here's the part where you explain to me how despite that Bane's growth rate is significantly better than Maul's, or better at all.

No, I don't. I've posted evidence for Bane's learning rate, now you need to post proof that Maul's is in any way comparable. That's how debates work, I post something, you post something and we squabble over which is better. Can't believe I actually have to tell you this tbh. Kind of awkward.

Niman and Jar'Kai are kind of the same thing but whatevs. And no, being able to defend doesn't mean you're using Soresu. Being among the most skilled is an entirely worthless accolade so it doesn't mean anything in comparison to Bane. Bane was wrecking a guy who'd mastered every aspect of the saber, acting as if he isn't among the most skilled is absolutely laughable.

You're forgetting that Bane had decades after PoD to grow in. He was gathering all the necessary information for his Order. I doubt he didn't gather knowledge of all lightsaber forms, even assuming he lacked mastery in all of them already. In a few years his skills would utterly eclipse Maul's to a laughable degree.

But anyway, Ascendancy seems to have this so no need to continue with this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It may surprise you friend but Kenobi's primary form is actually Soresu. Whereas yes, he became uncharacteristically aggressive according to the novelisation:

And my point was he had a mental advantage, yet despite that failed to defeat Maul.

According to the RotS novel, Kenobi used Ataru up to the Dooku duel. Please don't tell me that book could be inaccurate, my heart may not take it. Regardless, Maul fought Kenobi when he used Ataru in TPM and then in Revival or Revenge or whatever Kenobi went aggressive on him. They were likely surprised he was taking the offensive when it was 2 vs 1. Not that's them being surprised is nearly as significant a factor as Kenobi fighting two people at once.

Lmao, he didn't fail to defeat him. He cut his brothers arm off and had Maul running like a choirboy in the Vatican. Dude got wrecked.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No there aren't, Kenobi was outclassed by Maul at the same age, and only after gaining a decade of training over him and two years of battlefield experience was he able to compete. Jinn had 40 years on Maul and was prodigy among the Jedi, and yet was thrashed by the twentysomething regardless. Likewise Maul is able to swing with the likes of Dooku and Windu, despite both having many many decades of training and experience on him; no, rather it's a testament to Maul's tutelage and innate talent that he is able to compare despite having a fraction of their training.

On the other hand if we wish to change the goal posts and argue that Bane too has the advantage of years over Maul then fair enough, but much like them he's playing catchup. At Maul's age Bane is far from as capable a duelist, and I'm seeing no feats that suggest he became one as of DoE.

There are dozens.

Maul's training was many times more vigorous than Kenobi's was and far more focused on combat. Kenobi's time after TPM was also taken up with training Anakin and various other things. So Maul still had substantially more training than Kenobi and still got wrecked by him. The fact is that for all that Maul was obsessively trained he utterly fell short when compared to others. Ventress is near his level with literally a fraction of his training. Hilarious.

Oh obviously Bane does have that. It's not changing the goal posts, its a fact. But Bane also has a significantly superior learning and became as skilled a Maul in a mere fraction of the time. But that's to be expected. The darkside flowed through Bane to a far greater extent than it ever did Maul.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis? His Lehon feat? Destroying some tents? Bane may be more masterful in the dark side but I'm seeing no evidence he is more powerful, and if anything Maul has an edge over him in regards to physical prowess.

And I assume you mean Kas'im knows Bane's own style better than Bane knows Kas'im's. Which while true doesn't alter the fact that Bane knows nothing of how Maul fights, so he still doesn't have that advantage.

I'm sure you're well aware of Bane's feats and accolades. But I mean, ultimately Bane is called one of the most powerful Sith ever and Maul isn't. I see no basis for Maul to be in that camp.

I'm pretty sure Bane knows what Niman, Ataru and Juyo look like, lol. And no, I mean that Bane was taught to focus on his own abilities and master his own technique over studying Kas'im's. He's be more knowledgeable of single saber style than he would double-bladed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cheated?

Using a style your opponent is unfamiliar with hardly excuses getting trashed when he eclipsed Kas'im's Force abilities by a mile. No, ultimately he lost because Kas'im was the better swordsman. Something again Bane plainly admits:

Yes, cheated. Kas'im trained a weakness into Bane and then exploited it. It wasn't a factor of Kas'im being better than Bane, it was that Bane didn't know how to fight against dual saber style. In a fair contest Bane was wrecking him.

Maul can't pull out a second saber here, so it's irrelevant.

Kas'im did have the advantage because he was better than Bane. The fact that Bane's lack of knowledge was Kas'im's fault doesn't make it void. He was the convincingly better duelist as of PoD, Bane said so himself.

Only because of the dual saber trick. Without that Bane was his indisputable superior. How could Kas'im be the better duelist when Bane is clearly a step above him in terms of combat ability and was beating him blade for blade?

If you want to say that Kas'im is better just because of dual sabers, fine. But when that isn't a factor Bane is clearly better.

That was painful to read Neph, ngl.

Theres only so many ways I can point out that Kas'ims dual sabers trick isn't relevant and keep it fresh I'm sorry.

Ngl BB, i admire your tenacity lol

Thanks Fated, but I'm not sure I can handle Neph going full retard.

Don't feel like you need to reply if its such a burden. We both know this is going nowhere.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only because of the dual saber trick. Without that Bane was his indisputable superior. How could Kas'im be the better duelist when Bane is clearly a step above him in terms of combat ability and was beating him blade for blade?

If you want to say that Kas'im is better just because of dual sabers, fine. But when that isn't a factor Bane is clearly better.
I interpret that as Jar'kai Kas'im>POD Bane>>Saberstaff Kas'im as duelists personally, with text from POD confirming that Jar'kai is Kas'im's preferred form and that he viewed the saberstaff as limiting.

That being said, Bane should still get some very impressive scaling from driving saberstaff Kas'im into a desperate retreat, especially since saberstaff Kas'im would've near blitzed trainee Bane who utterly stomped Sirak, who by Bane and Githany's admission would destroy Githany, who quickly tore through the defenses of Kiel Charny, who was stated to be one of the Jedi Order's greatest champions and warriors.

Like POD Bane>>Saberstaff Kas'im>>>Trainee Bane>>Sirak>>Githany>One of the Jedi's greatest champions is some very insane dueling scaling.

That moment when DMB almost has a point and then immediately ruins it with shameless public wanking.

Arguing Kas'im won the fight unfairly, rather than him clearly demonstrating greater mastery and knowledge of fighting styles, is dangerously ignorant.

Kas'im was the superior swordsmasterm, and the text made that clear.

In regards to the fight, Bane obviously wins Force and all-out, but I think a strict lightsaber competition might push Bane to the brink - if not worse.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Githany, who quickly tore through the defenses of Kiel Charny, who was stated to be one of the Jedi Order's greatest champions and warriors.
Kiel didn't even fight back when he fought Githany in the comic because he loved her.

Githany even states:

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/17/73/92/12/githan10.png

So I finally give up on Kas'im being a great swordsman and all of a sudden people are accepting him? Fml

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kiel didn't even fight back when he fought Githany in the comic because he loved her.

Githany even states:

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/17/73/92/12/githan10.png
That's why I said she quickly overcame his defenses.

Which isn't indication of superiority, so I don't see why he's on your chain. And there's little indication Keil even defended himself in the first place.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which isn't indication of superior, so I don't see why he's on your chain. And there's little indication Keil even defended himself in the first place.
No he just let himself get cut down.

At the very least it's an indication of parity.

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/17/73/92/12/hm10.jpg

I'm not really seeing the parity here. The fight seems to be a brutal ambush of a woman wanting to inflict pain against a Jedi who doesn't want to even raise his weapon.

Githany's comments that Keil wouldn't even attack her was following his injury that forced him onto the ground, suggesting she's referring to his lack of response to her assault.

There's no saying that Keil, if he wanted to kill Githany, couldn't have launched an offense that would shatter her defenses. The fight portrayed doesn't give any hints either way.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/17/73/92/12/hm10.jpg

I'm not really seeing the parity here. The fight seems to be a brutal ambush of a woman wanting to inflict pain against a Jedi who doesn't want to even raise his weapon.

Githany's comments that Keil wouldn't even attack her was following his injury that forced him onto the ground, suggesting she's referring to his lack of response to her assault.

There's no saying that Keil, if he wanted to kill Githany, couldn't have launched an offense that would shatter her defenses. The fight portrayed doesn't give any hints either way.
I disagree with you, but even aside from that Githany has shat on other Jedi/Sith Master level opponents and is one of the more powerful Sith Masters, so Sirak shitting on her still gives quite a bit of validity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't feel like you need to reply if its such a burden. We both know this is going nowhere. Nah I have time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jesus, this really isn't the hill you want to be dying on here Beni. Just concede and eat some crow.I don't know Neph, these walls of cancer text might kill me yet...

Now to break it down.Combatively speaking, again no, he has one power on Maul that he can provably employ, let's count them together now 1. Force lightning. And that's a wrap, well done - which, in case you missed, is not "far more" by any stretch of the imagination, as I've said a number of times now.What's relevant to this discussion is what skills Bane can bring to this fight, and in so far all you've managed to chalk up is sparkle hands.In the Force, yeah? I agreed on that several pages ago, but as I keep pointing out his inability to apply almost any of that to this situation makes it next to a non-factor. It's like bringing up Vitiate's knowledge of Sith sorcery in a sabers only contest, nobody gives a flying ****. On the other hand Bane lacks feats that compare to Maul being among the best in mythos as far as it pertains to relevant abilities like martial skill, which is why he will lose.I never said it did, but it does make Bane's wider mastery of the Force pretty irrelevant to this debate.You mean rusty technobeasts some centuries old, on a dark side nexus of all places, incredible. Maul blew away an army. But yeah, ragdolling Kenobi > crushing Qordis.He's mastered Djem So and Juyo to my knowledge, Maul's mastered Jar'Kai, Ataru, Juyo and Niman.It's a lightsaber and therefore a plasma weapon; and that's not how deflecting Force lightning works, they don't just raise their saber and hope it sticks. It's not but I don't expect you to realise that.No it means Bane's power was so great that Kas'im's skill just didn't matter, he was "simply too strong in the Force." Again nowhere is his advantage attributed to this "absolute knowledge" of duelling you keep referring to, just all of Kas'im's moves with the saberstaff, nor is it anywhere stated that Bane's technique was flawless, those are inventions on your part. He won because he was much faster, stronger, and thanks to superior precog always several steps ahead.Erm, I never said it wasn't commonplace, in fact it just so happens to be the reason why those with tremendous Force strength but rudimentary combat skills can contend with much better swordsman (see Savage Opress.)

However you'd be wrong in assuming it's the ultimate fighting form, in fact Dooku is critical of Anakin and Kenobi in RotS for fighting in this manner as it made them easy to outmanoeuvre, while he fought consciously and methodically, Plagueis employing a similar strategy to defeat Venamis, and Bane himself later being more conscious and methodical in attempting to dismantle Zannah's Soresu in DoE.

But that's besides the point, the point is Bane was relying overwhelming on power rather than skill to defeat Kas'im, his skills just being a vehicle for his power. However that only goes so far, with Bane expressly stating that when Kas'im pulls his double blades, his command of the Force simply isn't sufficient to carry him in this manner anymore:I can't imagine what you are referring to dear but your inability to read is what's baffling here.

In Bane's internal monologue he is praising Kas'im's holistic talent as a duelist, the fact he has "mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon", and it is to that holistic talent to which Bane comes to realise that, now that Kas'im has unleashed is true strength, he is "no match", which would not only be a disingenuine statement but completely unwarranted if the only reason Bane was losing was because Kas'im cheated. Everyone else has managed to work this out, I'm sure you can too.

But if that wasn't bad enough he outright states he is the inferior swordsmaster by admitting Kas'im is the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. And unless you plan to argue that Bane is in fact a reanimated corpse, you may as well concede now.

No, while I will happily admit that Bane's unfamiliarity with Kas'im's fighting style (and as DMB pointed out, very likely his primary one, meaning with a saberstaff he was actually at less than his best) played a part in his defeat, that only makes up for Kas'im's massive disadvantage in Force strength, whereas we have no reason to believe that without that he wouldn't have beaten Bane regardless, just not quite as badly.
1. Again, you're entitled to your opinions.

2. Oh, "I'm right, you're wrong", how compelling. Look it up on Wookieepedia if you want evidence of its commonplace. But he can't even employ it in combat, so again I couldn't care less.

3. Ha ha, how facetious. On the other hand that grimacing gif is a pretty accurate depiction of how I felt while reading this.

Terribly, but not for the reasons you think, and exacerbated by your complete lack of an attempt to disprove my point. I assume that's to be taken as a concession that Maul's growth rate is in fact just as considerable.

As for the rest, Niman is provides foundation for study of Jar'Kai but it is not the same; considering both Juyo and Ataru as both weak defensively and against multiple opponents, I'd say considerable knowledge of Soresu would be necessary to prevent him getting eviscerated on Naboo; "It's worthless cause reasons" is what's worthless here; being outclassed as a swordsman by an actual member of Maul's club is a mark against Bane, not for him; I'm forgetting nothing, as I'm sure you've since surmised, I address that directly later on, and well, that's my response - but of course, you do realise that Maul would have access to all the knowledge Bane gathered of the lightsaber forms and more besides?; lol at leaving this to Ascendancy, tantamount to a concession tbh.
Your jokes aren't funny Neph, pls stop.

Anyway the text says they were caught off-guard, so no purpose in debating that, and considering that Kenobi states this element of surprise to be his "only chance" of escaping with his life, I'd say it was a pretty significant factor.

The reason Maul ran being because his brother got his arm cut off, he feared for his life and no point did Kenobi wreck him, lol, instead it's Kenobi that gets dismissed. But I suspect that again you are being facetious, or perhaps you really are that stupid. mmm And yet you haven't named one.

Maul's training was more vigorous and martially focused yes (read better i.e. the point) but it was not substantially greater in length, not when, as I've already explained to you, he spent five of his seven years of lightsaber training at the Orsis Academy in which he had only intermittent contact with his master, and when Maul is on top of this studying Sith and Jedi lore, learning numerous exotic martial arts, honing his Force abilities and developing skills in manipulation, stealth, espionage, mechanics, strategy, politics etc. to become a practical renaissance man, whereas Kenobi again, has a dozen years on him.

As for Ventress being near his level, hilarious, quite.It's all you have left, I'm just anticipating you abandoning your other arguments. But what do you mean "significantly superior learning"? Regardless this argument hinges on Bane being even equal to Kas'im as a swordsmaster by PoD, when he was in-fact, "no match". As for the dark side flowing through Bane greater than it did Maul, laughable when Sidious passed Mother Talzin up for him as an infant.Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm sure you're well aware of Bane's feats and accolades. But I mean, ultimately Bane is called one of the most powerful Sith ever and Maul isn't. I see no basis for Maul to be in that camp.Yes I am and I'm coming up empty, and considering Maul was able to telekinetically dominate one of the most powerful Jedi ever in Kenobi, I think he qualifies.The basic principles? Yes. But turns out different duelists have employ different techniques, and by the same logic Bane's single saber style would not be remotely the same as Maul's, obviously.Covered, I'm sure by now you've already written your concession.