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*Peak Katarn*
*Deceived Malgus*

-In character; morals are on
-Standard gear
-Combatants start 20 feet away
-Fight takes place on Alderaan

1. Force
2. 'Sabers
3. All-out

Ngl, probably Kyle in sabers and all-out, but Malgus should take Force.

Malgus should be capable of taking Katarn apart if this is Malgus at the end of the book.

Malgus in all

Not seeing how Kyle is more skilled at all

Besting Desann (why amped significantly no less), before fighting through an entire army of highly skilled Dark Troopers/Reborn? The best of Reborn, being very proficient in the Strong, fast, and medium style of combat? With Dark Troopers being even greater than, the Reborn, while also sporting cortosis armor and cloaking capabilities?

How about fighting through a host of Sith abomination, on a planet who's DS nexus was powerful enough to turn him to the darkside, before he gained a substantial amount of power? What about besting Jerec 6 Dark Jedi with minimal training, which, each being more powerful than the other?

From a technical standpoint, Kyle is a master of, like, 7 different forms/styles of lightsaber - and incorporated every them all to create his own unique form.

Lol mastering seven forms matters little these days. Look at Kas'im and Bulq, masters of seven forms and they're shit

Drallig's shit too

Malgus 45 years from his prime defeated the Jedi Battlemaster and was one of the greatest warriors in the Empire. The Jedi and Sith of the TOR era are laughably beyond the puny Reborn and Dark Troopers Katarn fought, with access to more true knowledge and techniques than they could ever dream of.

As of Decieved Malgus was likely the greatest warrior in the galaxy apart from Scourge and had taken down the premier Jedi duelists of his day. Before he recieved the immense boost in power he got at the end of the book.

Who cares? No one said technical skill was everything, but to say it doesn't matter because of a few bums is ludicrous.

This thread's making me want to go on a Malgus watching/reading binge.

I'm finding a hard time accepting defeating Darach is superior to Katarn defeating Sarris while simultaneously engaging in a telepathic battle, also, before he gained a substantial amount of power, and technical skill obviously.



Arbitrarily statement based on what exactly? I seriously doubt if there is any jarring difference between the average Jedi/Sith of TOR time, and a average Reborn. Reborn, after all, were stated to be a match for Jedi of the NJO, while Shadow Troopers where the Reborn's better, skilled in Force Lightning, equipped with lightsaber deflecting/shortening cortisis armor.



>Implying a peak Katarn wouldn't be in the same exact position had he been in Malgus' spot?



True enough.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Lol mastering seven forms matters little these days. Look at Kas'im and Bulq, masters of seven forms and they're shit

Neither are shit, actually. Neither is Katarn.

Well not shit, but can be beaten by someone proficient in only a few forms.

I'm trying to say that it doesn't exactly matter a great deal

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Well not shit, but can be beaten by someone proficient in only a few forms.

Yes, Dooku is better than Sora Bulq despite only having mastered one style instead of seven. That doesn't mean that mastering all seven styles is a meaningless accomplishment, or that it doesn't speak for one's level of skill.

Yes it shows great skill but how many forms are they actually gonna use? Bulq just used Juyo, Mace Vappad, Yoda Ataru etc.

However many they need to. Also, Bulq used Vaapad as well. Don't be a Jensaarai-***.

How dare you, when has Jensaarai said this?

Yeah, go to his channel, click the video tab, CTRL+F "Sora Bulq", then click on literally any of the highlighted videos.

Kyle is Chuck Norris of SW, he solos all.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, go to his channel, click the video tab, CTRL+F "Sora Bulq", then click on literally any of the highlighted videos.
I'll kill myself now

Originally posted by Deronn_solo


Desann has next to nothing other than a few lightsaber clashes with Luke and running away from him. That's hardly out of the realm of Malgus's abilities, and killing troopers isn't much better than Malgus stomping Republic soldiers. Malgus won't have issues with unorthodoxy considering he beat the Jedi temple Battlemaster 50 years before his prime, with Kao being capable of utilizing his own unorthodox lightsaber style.



Not sure how killing fodder really means anything in the grand scheme of things, especially considering how commonplace that feat is among other NJO duelists. Those 6 Dark Jedi also got stomped by Qu Rahn who was past his prime, and one of them iirc even shot and killed himself with a blaster. They're nowhere near close to Malgus constantly beating the best Jedi of the TOR era, being considered one of the greatest Swordsmen of the Sith empire by Hope (While Kyle was struggling with Dark Jedi), and being considered one of Sidious's greatest predecessors. Malgus would stomp all of them at once given he's more skilled than Qu, and Qu was beating them off before Jerec oneshot him



The only issue he might have is that he's never seen the NJO style, which itself is just a mismash of the 7 lightsaber forms. Malgus is considerably stronger, more durable, and more skilled than Kyle in the realm of lightsaber combat, so any sort of technical edge you think he has is minimal at best.

Katarn wins all but Force only, if this was FE Malgus then Malgus would win though.

Vindican was a noted Sith Inquisitor of his time, and Darach was fighting him off and Malgus off even slaying the former. I don't recall Sariss doing anything major in combat prior to dueling Katarn, and even then I'm not seeing how she'd last any longer against Malgus did then Satele did in Return. IIRC Kyle was having trouble with her and even got struck once, whereas, Malgus was able to mow through Darach and stomp Satele in his first showing. All that while Malgus has bested multiple Jedi at once, beaten Ven Zallow, beaten Satele Shan twice, beaten/fought evenly with Aryn Leneer, in comparison to Kyle who has next to no showings after the Vong War besides losing to Caedus





The NJO Jedi at the time weren't close to their prime as an order iirc. Whereas the Jedi of Malgus's time had spent decades fighting the Sith, compared to Luke's order who only encountered the ghost of Exar Kun. I missed the first order but with regards to my prior point, killing fodder isn't really out of the realm of Malgus's capabilities.





In terms of feats I'm not seeing how Katarn is all that much better than Zallow in terms of lightsaber skill. Regardless Malgus being the Empire's best Swordsmen would put him above Scourge, Darth Baras, Darth Marr, Darth Nyriss, and others especially given there was no Jedi who was able to finally down him until whoever killed him in the FE Flashpoint. This again in comparison to Kyle who has next to no feats after the Vong War to suggest he became more skilled, and whose showings in general aren't as great as he's hyped up to be.

The Reborn are actually pretty damn skilled. While their power in the Force was lacking, their skill with a lightsaber more than makes up for it:



As are the Dark Jedi Masters Katarn faced; they were called as high-level villains, no matter what era they were placed in:



This at least rivals the accolades those Sith Ven chopped down got. And keep in mind Katarn slaughtered these guys in hordes, while also on a Dark Side Nexus. And, following this raid, Katarn bested Desann, who was described as being a potent foe of the New Jedi Order, not to mention held off Luke for a good 20 seconds:




So Kyle should rival Zallow, at least, at this stage and he should've logically improved.

Darth Malgus solidly.

Malgus.

Ah, completely forgot about this. Might as well respond to Carth's post. xD

It could go either way. Katarn is superior with a blade but Malgus has the Force advantage. I think Malgus might take a slight majority, but again it could go either way.

Katarn has beaten beings with superior power to him, before, though.

Or, at times at least, taxed them.

Originally posted by carthage

Desann has next to nothing other than a few lightsaber clashes with Luke and running away from him.

Not true. In terms of power - we know for a fact that Desann utterly mastered the dark side, before he visited the Valley of the Jedi, which amped his power to a significant degree:



--Excerpt from Threats of the Galaxy



--Excerpt from The Dark Forces Saga, Part 6 Outcasts and Megalomaniacs Welcome



--- Luke Skywalker Excerpt taken from Jedi Outcast

He was also stated to be a "potent" foe to the NJO:



--Excerpt from Threats of the Galaxy

In terms of skill, Desann is significantly above both the Reborn, and Shadow Troopers, and the Dark Jedi he commands. Some of the former being masters of the Medium Style, Strong style, and Fast style. We know, that the Shadowtroopers are even more deadly than the Reborn are, and per Threats of the Galaxy, we know the Dark Jedi he controls can momentarily give pause to even the most skilled Jedi:



--Excerpt from Threats of the Galaxy

As far as actual feats go, Desann was able to;

- Absolutely stomp Merc Kyle, who has stalemated the notorious Jedi Boba Fett in combat.

- Trade blows with Luke Skywalker for sometime, landed a Force push on him, and dropped a structure on him via saber throw.

____________________________________________

While the latter feat is grossly overrated, and not as exceptional as some hype it to be given Luke's tendency to hold back --- it still is noteworthy considering the aforesaid Jedi, thought Desann a no less a "threat".

In the three things that make someone a skillful duelist:

1. Mastery/strength of the Force: Desann has completely mastered the darkside, casually brought down decently sized metal structure with a gesture, created illusions that affected the likes of Katarn, and Force shoved Luke.

2. Technical adroitness: Desann was the one who taught the - Medium, Strong, and Fast style of combat to the Reborn, who mastered the forms. Which imples, Desann himself was a mastered the the aforesaid lightsaber forms

3. Physical capability: We don't actually know much regarding this topic, besides the fact he has no problem competing against other power/fast Jedi, and he's a primarily Strong Style user, which implies the practitioner possess a decent degree of power.
As posted above Desann excels at them all. Therefore, by logical inference, he should be quote the formidable duelist without any further amping. With the Valley amp, AND the Yavin amp, I see no reason Desann wasn't a Vallow level duelist at least.

To hammer in the point more; what reallymakes Kyle's feat of besting the Dark Jedi so impressive is the following: Kyle had to fight through armies of Dark Jedi/Reborn/Shadow Troopers, just to battle Desann. Combine all of the aforesaid circumstances together, and I find Kyle's showing on Yavin to be greater than Malgus' killing Zen, tbh. All of this is done before Kyle further increased his skill with a blade via becoming proficient in the newly discovered forms of the Old Republic: Shii-Cho, Djem So, and Ataru.



Nah. Shadow Troopers are far and away superior to normal Republic soldiers.



Dunno when I actually brought unorthodoxy into the equation, tbh. I was more or less, commenting of Kyle's supreme technical adroitness rather than claiming the innovative form itself would cause Malgus any problems.



Fodder is all relative. But typically, how impressive one does against "fodder" is how we usually determine the skill of a duelist. And no, not many Jedi are sporting the fodder busting feats Kyle has under his belt in the NJO - or any era for that matter. His Yavin showing is absolutely insane, tbh.


To be continued.....

Cotinued from the last post @Carthage:



Context, Carth, context. He had the upper-hand against them, but he also when caught them off guard (which is partly why he did Boc in) and the clash wasn't very long to begin with. Sariss, for instance, only exchanged a few lightsaber clashes, and Yun couldn't even fight given his lightsaber was jacked by Qu. That aside, what makes the 6 Dark Jedi showing so impressive is Katarn was a bonafide neophyte at the time, with only the few teachings of Qu, and his fencing lessons taught during his Stomrtroopers days to guide him. He literally just picked up a lightsaber and started plowing through shit. That is a absolutely insane showing of intrinsic aptitude with a blade. He only got significantly better over time with further training, and mastery over various forms of combat.

Also, I think you're underrating the Dark Jedi a bit too much. They all have some impressive accolades under their belt. Maw, for instance, was stated to be a master of Trispzest - a lightsaber style that heavily incorporates principles of Juyo t the point it has been compared to Vaapad in that regard:


---Excerpt taken from The Dark Forces Saga, Part 4 Of the Crudest Matter

As we all know, to achieve and control Form VII, one must be a high-level master of multiple forms


-- Excerpt taken from Insider 62: Fightsaber

Seeing as how Maw, ultimately, was able to master a form adapted Juyo as it's main crux, I think it's safe to assume he achieved control over said form, honestly. In terms of strength/knowledge in the Force, Maw knows abilities such as Force drain, tutaminis, ad he survived bisection via his raw anger and power in the Force, a la Darth Maul. He also utterly mastered Force Flight to the point it became "second nature" to him. So yeah, all things considered, I would say Maw is pretty damn good. Sariss, in particular, was more or less, stated to be more powerful and skilled than even Maw - per Qu and New Essential Guide to Characters. She was also skilled in the rather esoteric ability Deathly Sight, and could engage in telepathtic battles, while simultaneously dueling an opponent.

So yeah, all things considered, I don't see why you feel the need to lowball the Dark Jedi. What Katarn did was impressive no matter how you want to cut the mustard.





Based on what exactly? I mean, as I explained above, some of the Dark Jedi were impressive in their own right, and Katarn was nothing more than a trainee when he proceeded to beat them one by one.



Giving Kyle's feats and such by that time, I don't see why Kyle wouldn't be seen as one of the greatest duelist in the galaxy at the time, either.



Does the quote apply to Deceived Malgus?



Your circular logic and ignorance to context is laughable here, tbh. But nah, none of Malgus feats/accolades suggest he can stomp the Dark Jedi. Try again, though.



Yes, a kind of style Malgus have never encountered can be a problem for him.



Don't really think that would matter much, lmao. It's not like Kyle isn't a beast in strength in is own right. Kicking a Vong far enough that he was protected from the blast radius of a thermal detonator (which should be around 18 feet, IIRC) is a pretty impressive strength feet honestly.



Won't matter all the much in lightsaber duel. But Kyle tanking blast from Ragnos' scepter, and getting nailed with a ****ing speeder hurled at him by Caedus proves parity reragdless.



I disagree.



Nah. Kyle is clearly more skilled from a technical standpoint, and nothing you posted here suggest otherwise.

Man, DC, you're really killin' it

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
who has stalemated the notorious Jedi Boba Fett in combat.

https://media.giphy.com/media/tLql6mMHC6wvK/giphy.gif

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
https://media.giphy.com/media/tLql6mMHC6wvK/giphy.gif

...what did I say wrong? xD

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125833/2648339-bobafettlightsaber.jpg

Boba is a Jedi. U mad, bro?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
...what did I say wrong? xD

Boba is a jedi?

Goddamn, I meant Jedi killer.

mmm

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Goddamn, I meant Jedi killer.

mmm

You know what to do. It starts with a K.

'Aight.


https://media.giphy.com/media/qwPwQEcc4pnI4/giphy.gif

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Lol mastering seven forms matters little these days. Look at Kas'im and Bulq, masters of seven forms and they're shit

Truth.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus 45 years from his prime defeated the Jedi Battlemaster and was one of the greatest warriors in the Empire. The Jedi and Sith of the TOR era are laughably beyond the puny Reborn and Dark Troopers Katarn fought, with access to more true knowledge and techniques than they could ever dream of.

As of Decieved Malgus was likely the greatest warrior in the galaxy apart from Scourge and had taken down the premier Jedi duelists of his day. Before he recieved the immense boost in power he got at the end of the book.

^^^

Malgus stomps.

Originally posted by MythLord
Ngl, probably Kyle in sabers and all-out, but Malgus should take Force. Malgus is better as a duelist then he is a force user.

That's totally irrelevant.

That's not what the quote says it says he learned to use his emotions to compensate for his lack of experience which is necessary to master the darkside. It even makes it a note to show that he isn't fully experienced, i,e he was on the pathway to mastery but not quite there yet:




This is in comparison to Malgus who at the end of Deceived, achieved a state of power that surpassed his feats from the trailers/novel onward, and In the Book of Anger Malgus's strength in the Darkside enabled him to unlock the ability of Maelstrom and becoming powerful enough to be considered one of Palpatine's most powerful predecessors:






-Book of Anger

Malgus at his peak being more powerful than the version that fought Zallow, and even prior to his peak at the end of Deceived/False Emperor flashpoint Satele remarked he was the most powerful darksider she's ever seen:




So Hope Malgus was already being compared to Dark councilors like Darth Baras/Darth Mekhis and in Satele's opinion was greater, and that was decades before his prime. I find these quotes to be of greater weight than quotes that blatantly say Desann was barely mastering the force, and was a "potent" foe of the NJO given Malgus was already amongst the greatest bladesbeings even as of Hope. Zallow being able to compete with him would place him above Kao Cen Darach, Satele Shan, Vindican (in sparring), as Zallow was regarded as Malgus's most notable (kill)/the only Jedi worth his attention in the sacking of Coruscant:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2jjQz2fWAc

3:57 Its shown he was his most notable kill (Star Wars The Old Republice Timeline

Who Also blitzed the Sith Empire's most skilled Swordsmen:







Boba isn't even force sensitive and while he's a bounty hunter of Renown, Malgus would simply annihilate him via the force. Mercenary Kyle at best has some Imperial training and beaten Dark Jedi with the Aid of Qu Rahn. None of these is explicitly outside of Malgus's capabilities as a duelist, given he was already contending with some of the best Jedi of the Old Republic era.




Its interesting to me that you call the feat 'grossly overrated' yet attempt to pass it off as legitimate. Luke as of that time period is above Darth Vader who in turn in Legends is well above Malgus, Desann, and Kyle. On top of that its not even a duel, he fled and they clashed blades for a few seconds. None of this is outside the realm of Malgus, and most emphatically its an inconsistent showing and outright nonsense. The best you could argue is Desann is good enough to clash blades, but by that same logic Lumiya, Gantoris, Flint, and a host of other people are comparable to him. Clashing blades briefly can't be used to scale as a valid feat, and it doesn't place him above Zallow or Satele for that matter.


In the three things that make someone a skillful duelist:





It didn't state he mastered it it even said he was inexperienced and on the path of learning the darkside due to using his emotions. Malgus could implode ships/blast away tons of rubble from two buildings decades before his prime. Collapsing that structure wouldn't even place Desann above him as of Deceived, the same Malgus that killed Zallow



Solid. But wouldn't prevent him from being killed by Malgus whose already faced more skilled duelists than Desann



You can't really claim he's more powerful when unamped, given his showings against Kyle all take place in the Valley of the Jedi. Also physically speaking Malgus is well above Kyle in physicals/durability. Kyle at best can withstand a speeder slamming into him, but was KOED by Caedus's lightsaber. In comparison to Malgus being blasted into a cliffside and being crushed by tons of rubble, Malgus being stabbed by Aryn's lightsaber and using his pain to keep fighting, being hit by flash grenades/missiles, withstanding Adraa's/Vindican's lightning, he's far more durable than either Desann or Kyle. Physically Kyle's best showing is throwing Vong around iirc, compared to Malgus who could crack Marble with his blows, send Zallow flying ten meters with a kick, shatter stone pillars, break ribs with his strike, literally pound Aryn Leneer's guard down, smack away large chunks of metal debris in the Return trailer, i,e he's strong enough to wear Kyle down overtime in a prolonged duel. Desann's physicals aren't comparable to his at all. And given Zallow withstood punishment from him and is greater than Satele, Vindican, the Zabrak Jedi master, and Kao Cen Darach per being his most notable kill- I'd argue he's better than someone like Desann who was still learning the ways of the force per the quotes you posted.



I'll condense my reply to this without quoting the following parts related to fodder/technical skill. Given Malgus had already beaten a Battlemaster i,e Kao Cen Darach Kyle's technical skill won't be anything to him, and would at worst be him finding out how to combat the NJO style.

Generally, Fodder killing showings are commonplace among force users, Jaina, Anakin Solo, and Mara all slaughtered score of Yuuzhan Vong, Revan killed scores of droids/Dark Jedi, Meetra killed scores of Fodder Sith- its generally a single skilled opponent that pushes a force user to his limit and is a true testament of skill and Malgus has faced more impressive foes than Dark Jedi/Vong. What I generally take issue with Kyle as I'll post in my followup is that these showings are before his prime, and after the Vong war he has next to nothing to suggest he became more skilled. We could compare notes on killing scores of nameless victims, but if we compare the accomplishments between the Dark Jedi/Desann to Zallow, Darach, Satele Shan, and Aryn Leneer they're honestly found wanting. Especially since the latter were capable of blitzing Sith, fighting some of the most powerful Sith of the TOR era (Darth Mekhis/Darth Baras in the case of Satele), and Kao being capable of holding off Vindican a notable Sith Inquisitor/Malgus off at the same time before being slayed. Malgus's career spans decades of Jedi killing, being referred to as the among the best Sith swordsmen prior to Deceived, so in terms of actual combat he's seen far more and can be scaled far more easily than Kyle.

Response to part 2 is forthcoming

Awesome, Carth. Was afraid you forgot all about this.

So what if his lightsaber was taken in the clip he was clearly capable of reacting and Qu held them all of without much difficulty even bifurcating one of them prior to being killed by Jerec. Its the Jedi's own ineptitude that his blade was stolen, and given that none of these Jedi are even comparable to Kao in kill Malgus would've butchered them even as of the Hope Trailer

At 3:07 he was clearly able to react:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=184&v=6GfgtBuhOxk






Agreed its impressive at the time, but since we're discussing combatants at their peak and Kyle's best feat is beating Desann who was inexperienced and learning its hard to truly gauge the feat. Not to mention the guides explicitly state that Rahn aided Kyle in some of his fights





-Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

If we're going to discuss the feat its important to note that, and obviously these Dark Jedi pale in comparison to fighting trained Sith. Especially when Satele someone who is notably Malgus's inferior with a lightsaber blade could already fight and hold her own against Dark Council members like Darth Baras and Angral, and Zallow could blitz the Empire's greatest swordsmen. Killing Dark Jedi with the aid of a ghost isn't even close to being a noted Swordsmen beating/killing the best Jedi of an era.



With regards to knowing some of these techniques they exist only on paper as game guide entries. This obviously isn't going to cut it in terms of demonstrations of power- Sariss, Yun, Maw and all of them knew all of these abilities yet never demonstrated the more advanced ones. In terms of raw power in the force only Jerec is really only comparable to Malgus. And with regards to Maw he mastered these forms to compensate for being cut in half, which is honestly at best comparable to Malgus getting blasted into a cliffside and still fighting and killing Jedi in the Third Way. Malgus as of the same time period is already one of the best Sith warriors, and more powerful than the likes of Dark councillors decades before his prime. He would very easily replicating slaughtering these Jedi, and in turn would only really have issues with Jerec.



Impressive? For the time period, maybe and its not enough to place him above Malgus who at the end of Deceived was unopposed by anyone in the Sith Empire in terms of feats/supremacy with a Lightsaber. Kyle again in his prime in LOTF has more or less been relegated to training and killing Kiliks/losing to Caedus i,e nearly getting cut in half in the opening part of their duel



Based off of Hope Satele/Pre Fatal Alliance Satele being capable of fighting Dark councilors, i,e the most powerful Sith in the Galaxy:





Based off of Zallow blitzing and killing the most skilled Sith warriors in the Empire/being Malgus's greatest kill- and being greater than Darach who could hold off Return Malgus/famed Sith Inquisitor Vindican, and Malgus being greater than any of them with a blade.




Never dismissed this. But again Malgus was already besting the absolute best of his time period, and they all have better feats than being "powerful foes" and scaling amongst themselves. In terms of feats, yeah he's better than Zallow but that's only due to inherently greater force potential, in terms of feats he's at best marginally better. But he's lacking in latter showings to compete with False Emperor Malgus



It refers to him at his peak, given Malgus likely learned Maelstrom only after Deceived.



Already addressed. Satele decades before her peak in KOTFE, could already fight and kill Dark Councilors (the most powerful Sith in the galaxy), Zallow could blitz the Empire's greatest Warriors/stomp Adraas, and Darach held off Vindican/Malgus, and Aryn Leneer performed better than all of them in her respective duels. So Malgus has a far more proven track record as a duelist than Kyle as of their respective peaks (False Emperor vs. LOTF Kyle Katarn)




Perhaps but given Malgus has already slayed a Battlemaster, its not really that big of an issue especially when Malgus is inherently more skilled/powerful than Kyle



Sure it will given Malgus is far more stronger in striking which could wear Kyle down over time (As it did to Leneer), and Malgus can withstand even a few lightsaber strikes whereas, Kyle was downed after one. His physical advantages and durability advantages only compound the problems for Kyle in a prospective duel




Malgus killed a Battlemaster, and likely at least knows Djem So, Juyo, Jar kai, and is familiar with saber staffs. Technicality won't help especially when Malgus has every other advantage per feats

Malgus in all.