Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Ok so example, Precog is standard among Force Users. Every Force User has it, so it's a general ability.

Ok so then take...let's say..ok Battle Meditation, that's not a standard ability to every Force User.

So now...when does a Force Ability not become a standard one and when is it a standard?

Like Force Barrier, this has been shown doable by Force Users of varying degrees, so would this then be a standard ability for all Force Users to do?

We have named characters as Padawans perform feats and do abilities, but would these abilities be able to be performed by fully trained standard Jedi Knights and Masters...provided said ability isn't noted as exclusive to them or isn't so far out there that it would be logically impossible?

So where is the cut off when abilities stop being standard to every Force User and when is it logically doable?

I hope I put this question right.

If its a basic ability commonly taught to everyone then its standard. If its something only specialised Jedi/Sith get taught or you need to seek other sources to learn then it isn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If its a basic ability commonly taught to everyone then its standard. If its something only specialised Jedi/Sith get taught or you need to seek other sources to learn then it isn't.

Right, but how would you know if it's commonly taught or not? If it's not said or written?

Normal abilities are usually outlined in sourcebooks and other supplementary materials.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Normal abilities are usually outlined in sourcebooks and other supplementary materials.

Outlined in what way?

What is usually showed in named characters, and randoms alike.

TK, basic TP, precog, etc are all basic capabilities, that can be found in every single Jedi/Sith to a certain extent.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
What is usually showed in named characters, and randoms alike.

TK, basic TP, precog, etc are all basic capabilities, that can be found in every single Jedi/Sith to a certain extent.

So would then Force Lighting be a standard one, seeing as there's showings of pretty much every Dark Force User using Lighting to some extent?

I guess you can say that, yeah. Though, they are quite a few advanced dark siders (Ventress, Maul) who haven't exhibited the power, despite knowing other esoteric abilities.

In new canon, Force Lightning is reserved for the Sithiest of Sith

Ventress knows how to raise the dead but not force lightning. Stupid :/

George Lucas cheapened Force Lightning by granting Count Dooku this ability in Episode II. This power should have been reserved for greatest among the Sith. However, Episode II made this power mainstream.

Palpatine's Force Lightning had a genuine shock-value. It was a representation of the magnitude of his immersion in the Dark Side. It also brought Luke Skywalker to his knees. We had an Emperor who was a master of esoteric powers of the Dark Side, powers that would catch Jedi off-guard. Even the guy who beat Darth Vader, had no counter for such powers. Perfect.

Dooku's canonically one of the most powerful Force users in history. This whole "Dooku's Lightning is weak" or just "Dooku is weak" propaganda is utterly laughable. He's supposed to be one of the most powerful, learned and masterful Force users ever. That's why Lucas gave him Lightning.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku's canonically one of the most powerful Force users in history. This whole "Dooku's Lightning is weak" or just "Dooku is weak" propaganda is utterly laughable. He's supposed to be one of the most powerful, learned and masterful Force users ever. That's why Lucas gave him Lightning.
You don't get it, my friend.

This is what you said.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
George Lucas cheapened Force Lightning by granting Count Dooku this ability in Episode II. This power should have been reserved for greatest among the Sith. However, Episode II made this power mainstream.

Palpatine's Force Lightning had a genuine shock-value. It was a representation of the magnitude of his immersion in the Dark Side. Luke Skywalker's lack of answer for it was terrifying as well. We had an Emperor who was a master of esoteric powers of the Dark Side, powers that made Jedi helpless.

And it's wrong. Dooku's "one of the greatest among the Sith", and his Lightning had "genuine shock value". Maul didn't use it in Episode 1. He was intended as a formidable martial artist, not a master of the arcane arts of the dark side. Dooku was to be different from him - and the Lightning showed that. Anakin's lack of answer for it was reminiscent of Luke's lack of an answer for it in RotJ. By the same token, Yoda's ability to repel it was a symbol of his own Force mastery.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku's canonically one of the most powerful Force users in history. This whole "Dooku's Lightning is weak" or just "Dooku is weak" propaganda is utterly laughable. He's supposed to be one of the most powerful, learned and masterful Force users ever. That's why Lucas gave him Lightning.

Yes, but only if being the "greatest" or "most powerful" of a Galaxy-wide 20,000 year old organisation is far too undefined to really mean anything. With the numbers we're talking about, there are literally hundreds that could be mentioned in such a fashion. I mean... you could even wank Coleman Trebor based off such accolades.

It doesn't matter what your interpretation of the quote is. Of all characters shown in history, Dooku's probably in the top two dozen.

That, and various other attributions and displays of his Force mastery, qualifies as sufficient to learn the likes of Force Lightning.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And it's wrong. Dooku's "one of the greatest among the Sith", and his Lightning had "genuine shock value". Maul didn't use it in Episode 1. He was intended as a formidable martial artist, not a master of the arcane arts of the dark side. Dooku was to be different from him - and the Lightning showed that. Anakin's lack of answer for it was reminiscent of Luke's lack of an answer for it in RotJ.
Count Dooku being "one of the greatest among the Sith" is supposed to impress me now? As another member pointed out, you can wank a large number of characters in this manner.

Obi-Wan Kenobi effortlessly blocked it with a Lightsaber by the way. When I saw this for the first time, I was like rolling my eyes.

Two characters:

1. Count Dooku
2. Obi-Wan

- cheapened Force Lightning. And George Lucas is responsible for this shit.

Episode 6 promoted Force Lightning as a terrifying power, something that was reserved for the likes of Emperor. Episode 2 cheapened it and made it mainstream.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Count Dooku being "one of the greatest among the Sith" is supposed to impress me now? As another member pointed out, you can wank a large number of characters in this manner.

Obi-Wan Kenobi effortlessly blocked it with a Lightsaber.

Two characters:

1. Count Dooku
2. Obi-Wan

- cheapened Force Lightning.

The lightsaber thing is actually a decent point, but your first point is an utter double standard. You just said that only "one of the greatest among the Sith" can use Lightning. I said that Dooku fits that criteria. And your reply is "how is that supposed to impress me?" By fitting the criteria that you set?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The lightsaber thing is actually a decent point, but your first point is an utter double standard. You just said that only "one of the greatest among the Sith" can use Lightning. I said that Dooku fits that criteria. And your reply is "how is that supposed to impress me?" By fitting the criteria that you set?
Please stop accusing me of double-standards. Keep this discussion free from petty insults and taunts.

My point is that Count Dooku was not in the league of the Emperor. He shouldn't be able to do what the Emperor could. Force Lightning would have been a decent differentiating factor among the two.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Please stop accusing me of double-standards. Keep this discussion free from petty insults and taunts.

Exposing a logical fallacy is a petty insult or a taunt now? Do you even know what a double-standard is?



No, your point was that only the best of the Sith should be able to use Lightning (you just attempted to change the goal posts again). And Dooku is among the best of the Sith. Hence, he should be able to use Lightning.

That's all there is to it. I don't know why you're trying to cry over split milk - I already accepted your lightsaber point as a valid one. This one's been debunked. Just move on.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Exposing a logical fallacy is a petty insult or a taunt now? Do you even know what a double-standard is?



No, your point was that only the best of the Sith should be able to use Lightning (you just attempted to change the goal posts again). And Dooku is among the best of the Sith. Hence, he should be able to use Lightning.

That's all there is to it. I don't know why you're trying to cry over split milk - I already accepted your lightsaber point as a valid one. This one's been debunked. Just move on.
You can't have a debate without accusing others of double-standards and such? What are you trying to prove here? That you are free from bias and such?

I don't perceive Count Dooku to be among the best of the Sith. There, I said it.

My perception of "one of the greatest Sith" is different from yours. Thank you.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It doesn't matter what your interpretation of the quote is.

Then who's interpretation does matter, if mine does not?



Correction. He is one of the most exposed Sith Lords - other than Vader. He does well because he's operating in a time were combat among the Jedi isn't close to it's apex, and he can pick apart their blaster wielding forms with his dueling-centric one.



Correction, his very generic skills of Force power qualifies him to be a somewhat powerful Sith Lord.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Is it necessary to post such remarks? What are you trying to prove here? That you are free from bias and such?

The fact that you're feeling insulted over debate jargon that wasn't even remotely intended to slight you is downright pitiful. Grow thicker skin and stop getting defensive every time you trade points with someone.

Nowhere did I even remotely imply that I or anyone else was free of bias either. Your non sequitur attempts at deflection are laughable. Can we have a discussion without your emotions flaring up?



Of course you don't. It's too bad that sources make it abundantly clear that he is.

Regardless, you've suggested before that only Palpatine-level Force users should be able to use Lightning. So Dooku wouldn't be classified there regardless, but I suppose you're fine with only the Son, Palpatine, Abeloth & possibly Vitiate using Lightning - no one else.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Then who's interpretation does matter, if mine does not?

How about an interpretation that reads directly into what the quotes are saying, instead of attempting various lowballs to try and circumvent a clearly portrayed message?



I won't bother debating this, but it's too bad that Lightning and Force powers don't have anything to do with this. So I guess I won't have to anyway.



Generic skills? How many Sith Lords can claim to have liberally studied from Sith archives at the peak of amassed Sith knowledge? How many Sith have a background as a Jedi Master with a near-unrivalled knowledge of the Force before they became Sith Lords and studied from Sith knowledge at its peak? How many Sith have shown Doppelganger? How many Sith have displayed feats that are a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters? How many Sith easily resurrect swarms of zombies on a whim or create barriers of Lightning?

Of course, you'd elect to use the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" approach, but you can't prove that this stuff is generic when it's clearly made out to be the opposite. But I'll await a response that is hopefully well distanced from any appeals to ignorance.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How about an interpretation that reads directly into what the quotes are saying, instead of attempting various lowballs to try and circumvent a clearly portrayed message?

That might be the case if the holy scriptures were dictating facts, they are not. The sacred texts can also claim that Coleman Trebor is a capable fighter, yet the objective truth of the mater is that he was killed and killed rather easily at that. The only reasonable assertion following such events, is that's he's not a capable fighter at all, and like most of the PT Jedi, he demonstrates trouble swatting blaster fire.



So it's a concession?



Lightning might have had some prestige back in 2003, when only half of the known Sith Lords could use it. It seemed to be rather impressive then. But as far as Legends are concerned, sparkles is a mere manifestation of hatred that can be summoned under intense situes of stress, as with Jacen Solo against the Vong or with Cade's various creative muses. It is clear that not much study or refinement went into those. And as Jedi philosophy changes, even they start to use their own expressions of lightning.



That is incorrect. More knowledge was lost than Bane's Sith could ever recover, and some more of that gets stifled by Gravid. Besides, how much access does Dooku have to said knowledge? It can't be too extensive given his amazement at Anddedu's Holocron, something Bane discarded readily, having not learned anything new from deciphering it.



*proof needed*



The Ancient Sith were the originators of whatever knowledge Bane and his Sith could get their hands on. Yet, through various events in the history of the Galaxy, a tremendous amount of said knowledge was lost and destroyed. If this isn't apparent enough for you, here are those holy scriptures reiterating what I just said:

"Locked within the recesses of that Sith Holocron - the only Sith Holocron, as far as anybody knows - are the forgotten histories and lore of the Sith, dating back a hundred thousand years and more"

- Odan-Urr on the Sith Holocron he discovered on the abandoned Sith ship during the Great Hyperspace War, The Essential Guide to the Force

"King Adas's holocron was stolen during the Jedi Purge, and it seems the remaining holocrons were destroyed before Palpatine or his agents could claim them"

- Tionne Solusar, The Essential Guide through the Force

"According to records, the Sith Lord might have gained greated knowledge of their subjects from an ancient Sith library temple on Krayiss II. Apparently, this library housed Holocrons and artifacts about the Sith species, but ruins on Krayiss II have yet to be identified as a library and its collections may have long turned to dust"

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

"Perhabs the greatest loss during that period was Veeshas Tuwan an ancient Sith library on the Sith world Arkania."

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force



And of course we have Sidious hating the Jedi for laying waste to so many Sith artifacts while pointing out that Vaa doesn't...

"mention the destruction of the planet Malachor V and its Sith academy"

- Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force



Only him it seems. But I imagine it's prestige looses a few notches, when you consider that an entire religious faction can use it - the Fallanassi.



And yet, he wasn't able to dismantle masters who were actually prepared for such advances, as when Kenobi could simply deflect Dooku's Force attacks by raising his lightsaber.



Didn't happen.



Didn't happen.



As above, there's evidence to prove why this stuff isn't special, evidence to prove why Dooku's knowledge of Sith lore isn't on par with the Rule of Two's originator and why his already limited pool of knowledge, is more limited than the average sith warrior who could just stroll into Malchor V before it's destruction. What ever intentions were behind Dooku's character become irrelevant, when presented with the facts.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That might be the case if the holy scriptures were dictating facts, they are not.

They do unless you can provide something of substance to contradict them.



Killed whilst unsuspecting and by the same bounty hunter who murdered several Jedi with his bare hands in quick succession. The Grand Master during Threat of Peace got caught off-guard and killed mid-fight by a lesser bounty hunter, as opposed to being off-guard when the fight occurred.



And Jedi in your beloved OR era don't?



More of an expression of exasperation over the topic, which I've lost interest in debating.



Cheapened as it is, defending against it with the Force is still something that "is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi masters".



Which doesn't exactly bring down somebody who can summon it on a whim when not even remotely in a state of intense stress or anger.



We'll see what examples you manage to conjure.



Sure, and some more than gets rediscovered or is encompassed by sources that are available to the Banite Sith, as I'll explain later.



We know he's studied the Dark Holocron & Andeddu's holocron, and he has a shelf of Sith holocrons in his private retreat in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.



Bane didn't discard it. He sweated himself using the Force to probe the holocron's contents because he found it of value (at least, Essence Transfer). Dooku saying that it's fascinating doesn't amount to his knowledge being limited, especially since he was trying to entice Quinlan Vos, as I recall.



I forgot you don't take Insider as Canon. But I don't care.





How quickly you can revert to using sources that you dismissed earlier as "not dictating facts". Perhaps you're running out of options or evidence?

The Banite Sith had access to numerous ancient Sith sources (Revan's holocron, Nadd's holocron, Sadow's holocron, Andeddu's holocron, Sorzus Syn's holocron scriptures, etc.) and multiple sources confirm that even Dooku embraced "ancient Sith teachings".



As far as the Jedi know, which isn't much by that point. The Jedi aren't a usable measuring source for the knowledge that the Sith possess. Odan-Urr was obviously unaware of Adas' holocron, Sadow & Nadd's holocrons, probably the dozens of Sith holocrons that were found just decades later by KotOR II, etc.

Heck, Jedi in the PT era thought they had access to Sorzus Syn's holocron for about a millennium, yet it was a facsimile and they failed to realize that all along.



It's funny that you dismiss so many quotes as being the flawed opinions of historians and then fall back on such things because you obviously have nowhere else to go. And you're choosing quotes with specifically low modality and subjective wording. That's laughable.

I'm not sure whether I should call you out on your double standards or the fact that you think that various other ancient Sith sources of knowledge were lost to the Banite Sith when it clearly wasn't. These Jedi historians are indeed wrong on this.



It's too bad that Darth Revan already uncovered the teachings of Malachor V per the Revan novel and included them in his holocron, as Darth Bane suggests in Book of Sith, doesn't it?



Umm, these religious factions tend to study arcane and esoteric arts, and that doesn't mean many Sith know of the techniques at all. Looks like you've hit a dead end again, huh?



Which has nothing to do with my point, since the quote in question refers to repelling Lightning with the Force, not a lightsaber. And we all know Dooku has ragdolled Obi-Wan before.

And yet again, you've reached a cul-de-sac.



Yes, they did, in The Final Showdown.



Your evidence is deeply flawed and conflicts with many of your own previously established stances. But if you want to attempt to prove that the average Sith warrior on Malachor V knows more than Dooku, you're welcome to.