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Sabers

Force

All Out

Outlander

Vader spanks.

Quick bullet point for Outlander's newly introduced feats/capabilities?

Being slightly better than Arcann excluding the mysterious saber blocking feat.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Quick bullet point for Outlander's newly introduced feats/capabilities?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU71fcJiWDM

Only three minutes long.

Originally posted by Sinious
Being slightly better than Arcann excluding the mysterious saber blocking feat.
Slightly? He ****ing demolished him.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Slightly? He ****ing demolished him.
... was there an alternate video I missed?

Jokes aside, your gross opinion has been noted, Ant. I came to hear what Sinious has to say.

Vader wins

Vader

Vader

I think it's close, but I'd favor Vader and "all his word-destroying fury."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Jokes aside, your gross opinion has been noted, Ant. I came to hear what Sinious has to say. How do you even use the word demolish for that fight? His application of force powers still seemed inferior to Arcann and sabers appeared to be a good fight even though the Outlander ultimately won.

and who wins?

Trump solos.

Vader, still.

Sabers: Vader, 7/10
Force: Vader, 10/10
All out: Vader, 8/10

The Outlander, IMO.

Originally posted by Sinious
How do you even use the word demolish for that fight? His application of force powers still seemed inferior to Arcann

Because defence isn't an application of the Force?

He was being beaten down the entire time and was then dismantled

Obviously the Outlander.

He was 'dismantled'after the ship started being hit by that fleet until that point the saber duel pretty close. Arcann starts to lose once he loses his footing.

Vader wins, he's better than Arcann in everything to begin with.

Feats for Outlander that are better than defeating Ezra Bridger?

Vader didn't defeat Ezra. He was unable to get the holocron from him. He failed.

Outlander beating Arcann vs Vader BFR'ing Ahsoka

Originally posted by carthage
He was 'dismantled'after the ship started being hit by that fleet until that point the saber duel pretty close. Arcann starts to lose once he loses his footing.

The fact that he can't keep his footing totally has shit to do with being an inferior combatant and out of balance in literally every way.

And so is the Outlander, so, I guess we're back to square one.

Originally posted by carthage
He was 'dismantled'after the ship started being hit by that fleet until that point the saber duel pretty close. Arcann starts to lose once he loses his footing.

Vader wins, he's better than Arcann in everything to begin with.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The fact that he can't keep his footing totally has shit to do with being an inferior combatant and out of balance in literally every way.

And so is the Outlander, so, I guess we're back to square one.

the saber duel was pretty close until the point where the ship is attacked, so unless you have a better argument for why he beats Vader in a duel, kthx for your opinion

He might be more powerful in the force than Arcann per deflecting his blows, but so is Vader so I guess we're back to square one.

Let's be real here. Even assuming the PIS amazeballs against Arcann lightsaber didn't have a role to play in this fight, and assuming the Outlander is completely immune to lightsaber strikes, Vader still has superior telekinesis to best him with and his own dueling skills are good enough to prevent the Outlander from besting him there.

DMB and Carthage joining forces? Unconscionable.

Lol no

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Let's be real here. Even assuming the PIS amazeballs against Arcann lightsaber didn't have a role to play in this fight, and assuming the Outlander is completely immune to lightsaber strikes, Vader still has superior telekinesis to best him with and his own dueling skills are good enough to prevent the Outlander from besting him there.

I'll probably wait until I personally play it but the Outlanders defense looks pretty nuts now, based on what Arcann was throwing at them. I mean, if they're stronger than Arcann who tanked Valkorions lightning, they can probably tank Vader's TK.

Originally posted by carthage
the saber duel was pretty close until the point where the ship is attacked, so unless you have a better argument for why he beats Vader in a duel, kthx for your opinion

That's nice. Arcann was inferior to the Outlander when the ship was sitting still all the same. The fact that he lost his footing at the climax of a battle doesn't mean everything afterwards was due to that.

You're the one making this argument, but thanks for the support. The Outlander wins because Vader can't do shit to them offensively and has never killed anyone remotely this powerful with TK.

The lightsaber isn't just good against Arcann, that's a gameplay mechanic. And as soon as Vader's superior TK kills someone, I'll be right on board. Until then, Vader will tire long before the Outlander gets tired of just raising their hand.

Vader's TK won't be a deciding factor against the Outlander.

Is his TK deciding factor for anything, the best he seems to do is move some big stuff

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'll probably wait until I personally play it but the Outlanders defense looks pretty nuts now, based on what Arcann was throwing at them. I mean, if they're stronger than Arcann who tanked Valkorions lightning, they can probably tank Vader's TK. Did you miss the part where Arcann brought him to his knees with the Force? Lmao.

^lol. That reminds me of a certain something Malgus did that nobody seems to wank...mmm

Face it, Vader ragdolls.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did you miss the part where Arcann brought him to his knees with the Force? Lmao.

The Outlander was still adjusting to their new power. Afterwards they easily block his lightsaber and tank and spank him into the dirt.

I missed the tanking and spanking but considering the Outlander is just as suprised as Arcann when he does that, it was probably Valkorion's doing. mmm

On the other hand he chose to eat the dirt rather than block Arcann's TK later on, telling.

Effectiveness of Telekinesis is overrated, IMO.

Superiority in Telekinesis does not makes much difference in a fight unless the gap between the combatants is terribly large.

Valkorion was stronger than Revan to a point that Revan's Telekinesis was a moot point in this contest. However, Valkorion needed more than Telekinesis to defeat Revan.

Darth Vader doesn't have any noticeable advantage here.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Face it, Vader ragdolls.
Like he ragdolled Ahsoka Tano and Luke Skywalker (as of ROTJ)?

Darth Vader isn't ragdolling a Force-user who is powerful enough to defeat Arcann.

Darth Vader's ability to affect external environment in impressive ways matters little in a contest against another powerful Force-user who can repel Lightsaber strikes and tank Force powers of a Darth Vader TIER opponent.

Face it, you are delusional.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Like he ragdolled Ahsoka Tano and Luke Skywalker (as of ROTJ)?

Face it, you are delusional.

Darth Vader isn't ragdolling a Force-user who is powerful enough to defeat Arcann.

Darth Vader's ability to affect external environment in impressive ways matters little in a contest against another powerful Force-user who have the means to protect himself from Force powers. It was a joke dear, no need to get your knickers in a twist.

However there is no evidence that suggests the Outlander can shrug off Vader's TK, if he chooses to employ it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's nice. Arcann was inferior to the Outlander when the ship was sitting still all the same. The fact that he lost his footing at the climax of a battle doesn't mean everything afterwards was due to that.

He was only inferior in the force, the saber duel was still a hard fought match. You can't change this in spite of all the dickriding you want to do. The match changed only when the ship was buckled, and then Outlander was finally able to score some decisive hits. Pretty irrelevant when this is a fight in neutral ground against a more technically skilled and more powerful opponent




You're trying to claim he demolished him which isn't the case . But thanks for ignoring factors that contributed heavily to him winning as effectively as he did. He choked Starkiller out, has greater telekinesis, greater knowledge of the force, and vastly better showings of barrier.



It doesn't need to "kill" anyone to be effective in combat, and without a ship rumbling destabilizing Vader there is no chance Outlander can beat him in a duel. Show me anyone Outlander has beaten in a lightsaber duel more skilled than Vader and then we'll talk

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It was a joke dear, no need to get your knickers in a twist.
However there is no evidence that suggests the Outlander can shrug off Vader's TK, if he chooses to employ it.
And what kind of evidence do you need?

Tanking Arcann's powers is not enough?

Considering that he didn't, no. That was kinda the point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I missed the tanking and spanking but considering the Outlander is just as suprised as Arcann when he does that, it was probably Valkorion's doing. mmm

On the other hand he chose to eat the dirt rather than block Arcann's TK later on, telling.

They tanked all his force attacks during the fight and then beat him in sabers. It clearly wasn't Valkorion's doing either, that's stupid. Valkorion is either absent or dormant at the time.

Dodging instead of blocking is simply more efficient.

Did... More footage come out last night about Arcann and the Outlander that justifies this conversation?

A bit more. Not sure if you caught it, if you chose the option you kind of own him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering that he didn't, no. That was kinda the point.
Am I missing something?

Originally posted by Nephthys
A bit more. Not sure if you caught it, if you chose the option you kind of own him.

Nah, I saw it. And it was cool, but... No one there showed anything beyond Vader lol.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, I saw it. And it was cool, but... No one there showed anything beyond Vader lol.
How Darth Vader would fare against Arcann and Outlander is open to interpretation and a matter of speculation.

You cannot prove that Darth Vader can dominate Arcann with his powers. He is no Valkorion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Am I missing something?

I might have skipped some of the footage, but I'm assuming Beni is referring to when Arcann launches a TK blast at Outlander and he jumps to the side.

Unless there is footage of him tanking it? If not, just like you are claiming one can't prove Vader can dominate Arcann with his force powers, I don't see how you can claim Outlander tanked Arcann's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They tanked all his force attacks during the fight and then beat him in sabers. It clearly wasn't Valkorion's doing either, that's stupid. Valkorion is either absent or dormant at the time.Provide an example, he never tanks a single one. And Arcann seems to disagree.Throwing yourself to the floor is more efficient than deflecting an attack with one's impenetrable defense? Lol.Originally posted by Trocity
I might have skipped some of the footage, but I'm assuming Beni is referring to when Arcann launches a TK blast at Outlander and he jumps to the side.

Unless there is footage of him tanking it? If not, just like you are claiming one can't prove Vader can dominate Arcann with his force powers, I don't see how you can claim Outlander tanked Arcann's. Yeah and him getting tooled at the beginning, hardly compelling.

EDIT: Or I assume they are referring to the DS ending, but Arcann had been cut up by that point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Provide an example, he never tanks a single one. And Arcann seems to disagree.

I'll do so after I go through the fight. Though clearly Arcann couldn't do shit to them with the Force given that he lost.

Arcann doesn't know what he's talking about. Regardless even he attributes it to Valkorion's mark, not Valkorion himself. When Valkorion is using his power through the Outlander, there are visual cues that weren't present.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Throwing yourself to the floor is more efficient than deflecting an attack with one's impenetrable defense? Lol.

Factually, yes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'll do so after I go through the fight. Though clearly Arcann couldn't do shit to them with the Force given that he lost.Don't bother lol. And "can't do shit" and "can't beat" are too different things, Dooku for example was able to ragdoll Vos and still lost. And of course, Arcann does shit to him at the beginning.And you do? Can you prove categorically that Valkorion wasn't at all present? Regardless if for a moment we were to assume he was, there is a big difference between blocking saber strikes and blocking TK, they are not synonymous.Right, because it's more efficient to leave yourself exposed than to not. mmm

Vader's still the more experienced, and proficient duelist - while sporting superior telekinetic power to boot. Before becoming a "far more formidable" combatant, and further increasing that power on RotJ, Vader was able to break through Starkillers defenses and choke him momentarily. The Outlander TK feats aren't on the same planet as Mr Frigate buster.

It will be a pretty good fight and all, but Vader wins.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader's still the more experienced, and proficient duelist - while sporting superior telekinetic power to boot. Before becoming a "far more formidable" combatant, and further increasing that power on RotJ, Vader was able to break through Starkillers defenses and choke him momentarily. The Outlander TK feats aren't on the same planet as Mr Frigate buster.

It will be a pretty good fight and all, but Vader wins.
The Outlander is a veteran of the Great Galactic War that lasted 28 years. He is also a veteran of the subsequent Cold War and numerous other events that collectively lasted several more years.

I am not sure what makes Darth Vader more experienced and proficient duelist than the Outlander. The latter would have encountered many Sith in the battlefield and is revered for his exploits.

Darth Vader's (presumed) superiority in Telekinesis is largely irrelevant in this contest because the gap is not large. Darth Vader had his moments with Starkiller but he failed to defeat the latter when it mattered. Similarly, Darth Vader failed to defeat Luke Skywalker when it mattered.

The Outlander's combative strategy is different from that of Starkiller. If he is Light Side, then he is not fond of disintegrating stuff around him (The Outlander is officially promoted as Jedi Knight class by BioWare).

Darth Vader doesn't have any advantage here.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Outlander is a veteran of the Great Galactic War that lasted 28 years.

Nope.

I noticed that too in a codex about the Hero of Tython. That's a typo.

The Outlander's a veteran of the *Galactic War*, not the Great Galactic War.

It's also possible they're just mashing the two conflicts together.

Thats seems like a typo. The Outlander is a veteran of the Galactic War, which came after the Cold War, which itself came after the Great Galactic War.

The Outlander is still definitely comparable or superior in terms of dueling experience to Vader. They fought hundreds of Sith, fallen Jedi and Zakuul Knights in their day.

Fair enough.

The Outlander is a veteran of two major wars nonetheless: the Cold War and subsequent Eternal Empire War.

Yeah, somehow, I doubt the Outlander actually participated Great Galactic War for obvious reasons. That aside, Darth Vader was one of, if not, the greatest hero, of one of the most prolific conflicts of all time in The Clone Wars. After Order 66, and becoming a Dark Lord, Vader was in charge of killing the "renegade" Jedi that survived the purge, and in doing so, earned the title of "the greatest Jedi killer" of all-time by no other than Darth Sidious himself. All of this while training various powerhouse Force sensitives (Galen Marek, Lumiya). So for, like, 24 straight years, Vader was in endless conflict, after conflict. The Outlanders experience is good and all, but I'd give Vader the edge there for simply doing it longer, against comparable competition.

As for skill, Vader stalemating TFU II Starkiller in someone who has/was:

- "Perfected" ligtsaber combat and stated to be "virtually unstoppable in combat"
- A high level master of multiple lightsaber forms - including and probably not limited to: Juyo, Shien and Soresu.
- Plowed through hordes/armies highly skilled Royal Guards/Shadow Guards before besting TFU I Darth Vader, who still had high quality skill feats under his belt

This is before Darth Vader became "far more formidable" combatant overall. The feat, in conjunction with power-scaling, supersedes anything Outlander has done, IMO. From a technical standpoint, Vader was able to utterly, and effectively blend multiple lightsaber styles to form a single, hybrid style, again, something I find more impressive than what



LAL. "Presumed". The Outlander's TK feats aren't on Darth Vaders level. Period. There's really no ifs, ands, or buts about it, frankly. Accolade wise, The Outlanders loses their too.



Simply put, Vader wasn't powerful enough to strictly best Starkiller through The Force at that time. Not to mention, Vader was trying to turn Starkiller rather than best him. That's why he lowered his guard, and suffered the lost he did against SK in TFU II. Regardless, it doesn't matter since 'Killers TK is clearly > Outlanders, so yeah.




You mean a conflicted Vader that never even bothered to use TK the entire time? Luke admitted multiple times through out TCoPL that Vader was never trying to kill him, only turn him. Via Luke, this is what the results what have been had Vader wanted him dead:



---Excerpt taken from The Courtship of Princess Leia




We'll just have to disagree there.

To clarify my stance - I'm not stating I believe Vader could defeat The Outlander with a TK attack, but it can, and in my opinion, will, create the breaches/openings in the Outlanders defenses he needs, to end him with a saber strike.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Simply put, Vader wasn't powerful enough to strictly best Starkiller through The Force at that time. Not to mention, Vader was trying to turn Starkiller rather than best him. That's why he lowered his guard, and suffered the lost he did against SK in TFU II. Regardless, it doesn't matter since 'Killers TK is clearly > Outlanders, so yeah.

Vader threw the duel in TFU II.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I noticed that too in a codex about the Hero of Tython. That's a typo.

The Outlander's a veteran of the *Galactic War*, not the Great Galactic War.

It's also possible they're just mashing the two conflicts together.
It isn't a typo. It's just treated as one big war with a cease fire in the middle. The only people who separate it is Wookieepedia. No one has called it the "Galactic War" to my knowledge in game.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because defence isn't an application of the Force? When did the Outlander properly defend against Arcann's force attacks? Not really. Damn.

Originally posted by Sinious
When did the Outlander properly defend against Arcann's force attacks?

During the fight? Like I get it's gameplay. That within itself doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Yes. Really.

If this surprises you, you haven't been paying attention.

Wrathlander gets so much more hype tbh.

Yes, but as I have a Wrath bias, there's no point in me discussing that. Just assume HoT for consistency.

The list of Wrath kills is more impressive tbh.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
During the fight? Like I get it's gameplay. That within itself doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You're slipping, Slice. uhuh

Wrath is more impressive than the Hero, but the likelyhood of him being the canon Outlander is all but nil.

Nah, I've always supported the boss mechanics that are a part of scripted story events(i.e. anything not in an op).

Even when those gameplay mechancis involve the Outlander only being able to defend against Arcann's blasts with a convenient metal shield that is curiously missing from all three cutscenes?

HoT > Wrath. Originally posted by FreshestSlice
During the fight? Like I get it's gameplay. That within itself doesn't mean it didn't happen. The problem with that logic is that we already have showings on this in the cutscenes. In one instance, HoT finds himself on his knees, and in the other, he finds himself on the floor just to avoid a TK blast. Nothing suggests that it was a one-sided duel, Freshest. Isn't it ironic that I'm more reluctant to place HoT above Vader than you?

Originally posted by Sinious
HoT > Wrath.

No.

This actually makes zero ****ing sense. Arcann's obviously not ragdolling anymore. The fact that he gets hits in doesn't imply some sort of superiority or a lack of defense on the HoT's part.

He lost. That's the definition of one sided. Obviously Arcann had a chance to win. Everyone has a chance to win. It was never in doubt who would win this confrontation however.that's the entire point of the Chapter.

Not really. You also thought it was ironic Ant thinks Anakin can defeat Revan, when everyone else thought it was anything but.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He lost. That's the definition of one sided.

Nope.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No.

This actually makes zero ****ing sense. Arcann's obviously not ragdolling anymore. The fact that he gets hits in doesn't imply some sort of superiority or a lack of defense on the HoT's part.

Yeah, except the cutscenes are a more reliable source than your assumptions regarding what happens between them and on both instances in the cutscenes, Arcann gets an advantage via applying force powers in the battle. These Force attacks aren't unconventional sorcery alike attacks. It's telekinesis which is probably the most explicit contest of displaying raw power. HoT fails to resist his first attack in a similar fashion to their first fight, but one can find a way to come up with excuses for HoT there. When Arcann sends that TK blast though, HoT literally had no excuse to not stand his ground against it if he was indeed more powerful.

I think Arcann is very powerful. The fact that he could ragdoll HoT in the first place is crazy, so it's not that surprising that he still has an edge in the Force. The way I see it, HoT finally reached the power to stand his ground against Arcann's superior power for long enough to win in a duel.

Arguably the stupidest thing you've ever said.

I'm not talking about chances, buddy. The plot never revealed anything about the gap between Arcann and Outlander as combatants. HoT being destined to defeat Arcann doesn't cancel out the possibility of a great fight between them. Don't recall that, but that sounds like a joke about Ant' symbolic affiliation with Revan. Here, I was referring to how you tend to sacrifice your SWTOR wank for your Vader wank, and here I'm kinda doing the opposite.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
During the fight? Like I get it's gameplay. That within itself doesn't mean it didn't happen. Lol the same shit happened in their last fight yet he was getting ragdolled.

Also Arcann is driving the Outlander back in the last cutscene, it was clearly not one sided.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah, except the cutscenes are a more reliable source than your assumptions regarding what happens between them and on both instances in the cutscenes, Arcann gets an advantage via applying force powers in the battle. These Force attacks aren't unconventional sorcery alike attacks. It's telekinesis which is probably the most explicit contest of displaying raw power. HoT fails to resist his first attack in a similar fashion to their first fight, but one can find a way to come up with excuses for HoT there. When Arcann sends that TK blast though, HoT literally had no excuse to not stand his ground against it if he was indeed more powerful.
I (absolutely) believe that this was not a one-sided confrontation. However, I find your explanation a bit problematic as well.

Based on my play-through, I have come to realize that cut-scenes do not tell us much.

You get to see the opening salvo (in which the opponent typically dominates the protagonist) and/or the outcome (in which the opponent is on his knees). Sometimes, a glimpse of the turning point in the confrontation (mid-duel) is also shown but this is not common.

The opening salvo gives us the impression that this is not a strictly one-sided confrontation but it can also mislead the audience.

In short, cut-scenes do not tell us the whole story. Yes, we see the Outlander evading one of the TK blasts of Arcann in a cut-scene but this might have been an instinctual response from the Outlander during that particular moment.

It is foolish to assume that the Outlander cannot tank Arcann's powers head-on, as formidable as they are. The Outlander eventually defeated Arcann. You can't expect (only) your skills with a Lightsaber to lead you to victory against such a powerful opponent.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I (absolutely) believe that this was not a one-sided confrontation. However, I find your explanation a bit problematic as well.

Based on my play-through, I have come to realize that cut-scenes do not tell us much.

You get to see the opening salvo (in which the opponent typically dominates the protagonist) and/or the outcome (in which the opponent is on his knees). Sometimes, a glimpse of the turning point in the confrontation (mid-duel) is also shown but this is not common.

The opening salvo gives us the impression that this is not a strictly one-sided confrontation but it can also mislead the audience.

In short, cut-scenes do not tell us the whole story. Yes, we see the Outlander evading one of the TK blasts of Arcann in a cut-scene but this might have been an instinctual response from the Outlander during that particular moment.

Check this out: Legend arguing against the reliability of SWTOR cutscenes. I'd say analyzing a fight by ignoring the one material that reveals it due to unwarranted skepticism is incomparably more foolish, and you're making it sound like I said the Outlander had no use of his power or has no power at all. Check again: I said the HoTlander is powerful enough to stand his ground, just not more powerful. Being less powerful doesn't imply that you can't make use of it at all.

Apparently the Outlander was amped when he fought Arcann? It's not as impressive if that's the case.

Vader only wins more decisively, then.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Apparently the Outlander was amped when he fought Arcann? It's not as impressive if that's the case.

Yeah, by 2 sources no less.

Which are these?

Valkorion and his/her lightsaber.

Not sure where to rank him, then.

They're permanent increases.

Bump. Vader wins

Vader kicks his ass

^^^

The Outlander > Revan

Vader in a good fight.