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Three greatest heroes of Old Republic and Clone Wars in all out match.

Starting distance is only 1 meter!

Clone Wars team:
- Mace Windu
- Anakin Skywalker
- Obi-Wan Kenobi

Old Republic team:
- Revan
- Meetra Surik
- Outlander

Just TCW versions? OR team wins, if that's the case.

Revan as of?

Everybody in prime

Depends on how Revan approaches combating Skywalker.

TOR team wins for sure. Revan is the biggest threat by far, far more powerful than any single member of either team. The team that killed Revan was far more impressive than the CW team here is, so I dare say Revan could solo. But if he can't, Meetra and the Outlander are more than capable of picking up whatever little slack is left.

Surik is a non-factor in this fight.

She provides nothing more then a brief fight/distraction.

Revan could take Skywalker, but the Outlander and Kenobi stalemate.

That leaves Mace, who helps either combatant, and whichever combatant he helps, their opponent is going down.

Meetras weakness is going to bring the team down.

TCW.

Originally posted by darthbane77
The team that killed Revan was far more impressive than the CW team here is, so I dare say Revan could solo.

The f*** dude, you being serious atm?

TCW

The team can't carry Meetra

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Surik is a non-factor in this fight.

She provides nothing more then a brief fight/distraction.

Revan could take Skywalker, but the Outlander and Kenobi stalemate.

That leaves Mace, who helps either combatant, and whichever combatant he helps, their opponent is going down.

Meetras weakness is going to bring the team down.

Most retarded post in the thread. And that's one hell of an accomplishment, given what Bane77's said.

Originally posted by Selenial
Most retarded post in the thread. And that's one hell of an accomplishment, given what Bane77's said. Are you actually arguing Meetra is going to be more then a footnote in this battle???

Really?...

She could take Kenobi in the force, but shes getting destroyed in Sabers.

Did you read that "state of the forum" shit we all posted in? How we need to stop trolling and actually debating?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
did you read that "state of the forum" shit we all posted in? How we need to stop trolling and actually debating?

Wait hold up, can you please clarify you weren't trolling with your previous comments in this thread before I reply? mmm

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Did you read that "state of the forum" shit we all posted in? How we need to stop trolling and actually debating?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhDtFnpNOfE&t=0m13s

ROFL at Meetra being a non-factor, straight purified cancer cells.

Revan>Anakin
Outlander>Windu
Meetra>Kenobi

Revan probably unleashes a Force wave off the bat to give TOR an immediate advantage.

Meetra probably fails like she did to Nyriss and dies within seconds

and unless there is a ship To crash into Mace, Outlander dies

Nyriss would tool Kenobi.

Outlander beat him outright, your laughable appeal to percieved context in the Outlander vs Arcann fight whilst you troll about the Nyriss fight and ignore the mound of context there is your greatest double standard yet.

End your KMC career already.

Originally posted by carthage
TCW

The team can't carry Meetra

Originally posted by carthage
TCW

The team can't carry Meetra

Mace is the best with sabers here, Revan with force. I think Anakin vs Revan would be interesting, Anakin can tank most of Revan's TK and takes him in sabers but the power gap is a bit big. Not sure who wins tbh but Kenobi gets ragdolled

Team doesn't need to carry Meetra, she is easily on Kenobi's level.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Team doesn't need to carry Meetra, she is easily on Kenobi's level. "Easily"...

What?

Idk who you're talking to here AP, Carthage is Carthage and DMB has ignored every single Kotor debate he's poked his head into for weeks because he knows he'd get slaughtered....

Don't waste your time with filth

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nyriss would tool Kenobi.

Outlander beat him outright, your laughable appeal to percieved context in the Outlander vs Arcann fight whilst you troll about the Nyriss fight and ignore the mound of context there is your greatest double standard yet.

End your KMC career already. ...Yeah, but like... Why would she?

AP's headcanon is strong, I mean killing featless Sith trainees and getting stomped by Nyriss totally means she can beat someone that can stalemate Vader.

Originally posted by carthage
AP's headcanon is strong, I mean killing featless Sith trainees and getting stomped by Nyriss totally means she can beat someone that can stalemate Vader.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nyriss would tool Kenobi.
t.



Look at this amazing argument totally based on facts

AP saving face that Meetra's never beaten anyone remotely skilled in a lightsaber duel lmao

And got horribly stomped in Sabers and possibly force with someone who was almost her equal.

No one barring in the prequel Era besides Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Anakin (debatable), and Dooku can take Meetra.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
"Easily"...

What?

You need to understand Kotor II better, tbfh. Firstly, know that Meetra was weak on Dromund Kaas, so try not to factor that into this. I'll have a post up in a couple of days that should end that argument for good.

In terms of the era as a whole, we're dealing with the combative Prime of the Jedi Order. Atris, a Jedi Master known for her mastery over Juyo (and by extension several other forms), a greater virtuoso with a blade than the famed guardian Kavar... was "no match" for the Jedi Exile's skill with a blade.

Darth Traya, whose hype you're well aware of by now, defeated Atton Rand (http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/selenial/blog/an-in-depth-look-at-atton-rand/128108/#comments-block-1812822) with a blade "swiftly and brutally", this being a Jedi who moments later would face and defeat Darth Sion, a Jedi who has achieved mastery over several forms of Lightsaber combat. Even she was no match for the Jedi Exile's dueling capabilities, despite canonically holding a strong advantage in Force Power, having the aid of an immense nexus... she could not make up for the disparity between the skill levels of the two.

Carthage likes to suggest the Exile has never defeated a skilled duelist, because no matter how far down this line of thinking you go, he will always be able to call someone featless. The problem is though, unless you have Atton Rand as "random PT Jedi knight"* tier, the Exile simply must be a duelist up there with the best

*No, don't try it. Someone "trained to mastery" by the Exile and left to govern and train the new Jedi, who killed Jedi for fun even before realising he's force sensitive and mastering numerous forms of combat... Is not random Jedi Knight tier.

Originally posted by Trocity
The f*** dude, you being serious atm? yup

Originally posted by Selenial
Most retarded post in the thread. And that's one hell of an accomplishment, given what Bane77's said. why thank you, you don't seem to bright yourself; everyone's a ****in retard.

Yeah, implying Revan can beat Mace, Anakin, and Obi-Wan together is worthy of being called retarded.

Ant on his worst day wouldn't choke on Revan cock like that.

Originally posted by Selenial
You need to understand Kotor II better, tbfh. Firstly, know that Meetra was weak on Dromund Kaas, so try not to factor that into this. I'll have a post up in a couple of days that should end that argument for good.

In terms of the era as a whole, we're dealing with the combative Prime of the Jedi Order. Atris, a Jedi Master known for her mastery over Juyo (and by extension several other forms), a greater virtuoso with a blade than the famed guardian Kavar... was "no match" for the Jedi Exile's skill with a blade.

Darth Traya, whose hype you're well aware of by now, defeated Atton Rand (http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/selenial/blog/an-in-depth-look-at-atton-rand/128108/#comments-block-1812822) with a blade "swiftly and brutally", this being a Jedi who moments later would face and defeat Darth Sion, a Jedi who has achieved mastery over several forms of Lightsaber combat. Even she was no match for the Jedi Exile's dueling capabilities, despite canonically holding a strong advantage in Force Power, having the aid of an immense nexus... she could not make up for the disparity between the skill levels of the two.

Carthage likes to suggest the Exile has never defeated a skilled duelist, because no matter how far down this line of thinking you go, he will always be able to call someone featless. The problem is though, unless you have Atton Rand as "random PT Jedi knight"* tier, the Exile simply must be a duelist up there with the best

*No, don't try it. Someone "trained to mastery" by the Exile and left to govern and train the new Jedi, who killed Jedi for fun even before realising he's force sensitive and mastering numerous forms of combat... Is not random Jedi Knight tier.



No amount of trolling from Carthage or Jman is changing these facts.

Well this thread is going wonderful. *Ahem*

Anyways, as of their primes Revan is the MVP of the field. With Anakin, Mace and the Outlander making up the next in line of powerful in no particular order. Though now we get to the bottom two. Meetra and Kenobi. Just to be flat-out, Meetra wins that confrontation. Neither Mace nor Anakin can pull attention enough to save Kenobi from getting beaten eventually, and the same goes for whomever faces Revan.

Essentially, we have Revan VS whomever that will end in victory. The Outlander VS Anakin/Mace who will both take a long time to defeat the Outalnder. While frankly Anakin holds a better chance. Then Meetra VS Kenobi that ends with Meetra's victory in roughly the same span of time it takes for the previous bout to end due to Kenobi's defensive mastery, yet Meetra's mastery of the erratic Form 7 making mounting an accurate defense difficult.

His force advantage is massive, and I stand by the strike teams he fought on Yavin being superior to the CW team.Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, implying Revan can beat Mace, Anakin, and Obi-Wan together is worthy of being called retarded.

Ant on his worst day wouldn't choke on Revan cock like that.

I wonder how much difficulty Anakin, Mace, or Obi Wan would have stomping Atton Rand. And lol @ Sel trying to wank mastering multiple forms of lightsaber combat, by that logic Sirak is just as skilled as Sion for knowing Juyo. Traya as well has no notable saber feats, so beating her is no big deal.

Originally posted by AncientPower


No amount of trolling from Carthage or Jman is changing these facts. She wasn't that weak on Dromund Kaas.

No Nexus affects somebody to that point.

Originally posted by AncientPower


No amount of trolling from Carthage or Jman is changing these facts. I never tried to say that Meetra wasn't impressive.

(Though I still don't see Sion as all that impressive, the dude is too ambiguous to rank properly)

I think MEETRA is impressive, and Darth Traya taking Atton down swiftly is impressive.

However, even if Meetra can beat Kenobi in Force, shes just completely outmatched in terms of sabers, based on Kenobi's feats.

Being able to push back Count Dooku, contend with Savage and Maul at once, out-fencing Asajj Ventress completely and totally, and also being able to beat Grievous and give Anakin ****ing Skywalker a REALLY hard time, hard enough that the difference between their skills with a blade are debatable in my eyes.

Form Mastery is just that, Form Mastery, its great that they are masters of that Form, but people who are masters of several forms have gotten stomped by people that you'd consider mediocre in saber combat.

All this should have been directed at Selenial, but **** it, I'm just going with it.

I don't think you realize how many "best duelists" there are.

There's dozens of sub-par Jedi that you'd think are superb duelists based on who they've beaten, but in the grand scheme of things, they're pretty low.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
She wasn't that weak on Dromund Kaas.

No Nexus affects somebody to that point.

Kyle Katarn had his powers boosted to the point that he would've easily killed Mara Jade, whose connection to the Force was essentially rendered inert by the Temple. (Dark Forces: Mysteries of the Sith)

The most powerful Jedi in the mythos, Luke Skywalker, had his reflexes hindered so severely that generic Lost Tribe Sith sabers were a threat to himself and the similarly hindered Jaina Solo Fel. (Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse)

All of this was on a less potent version of Dromund Kaas than that faced by Revan and the Jedi Exile.

So tell me what source(not blind speculation) you have suggesting Meetra wasn't significantly hindered on Dromund Kaas, when we have confirmation of the effects of Dromund Kaas in the very novel we're discussing.

There's so much cancer from both sides here, lol. God almighty.

Originally posted by carthage
I wonder how much difficulty Anakin, Mace, or Obi Wan would have stomping Atton Rand. And lol @ Sel trying to wank mastering multiple forms of lightsaber combat, by that logic Sirak is just as skilled as Sion for knowing Juyo. Traya as well has no notable saber feats, so beating her is no big deal.

Mastering forms does not make you as skilled as a top tier combatant, no, but it sets a benchmark. Mastering seven forms will never bring you from the level of a master to being above Kenobi, just because you've mastered more Lightsaber forms, but fundamentally it's a baseline placement.

Interesting comparison of Atton and Sirak though. Since Traya defeated Atton in sabers easier than Bane beat Sirak in PoD... and it still didn't help her when the Exile came for her life.

CW team wins; Anakin > Revan, Mace > Outlander, Obi > Surik.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's so much cancer from both sides here, lol. God almighty.

Ikr.

After all, beating Sion is incredibly impressive, considering that he's an ultra-powerful Sith, right?

Is this salt because you said Sion had no accolades, and then when I showed you some, you started to revert to a "these vague accolades don't mean anything" stance? A textbook and mundane application of goal post-shifting, I'm afraid.

And we've already explained what Sion has, which is more than just accolades for being "ultra-powerful". As the head of an organization which is hierarchically based on the number of Jedi kills attained, with the organization having killed tens of thousands of them in their prime, it's probable that Sion killed dozens, if not hundreds of Jedi, who, on average, are the best fighters in history. Sure, this factors in his immortality, but it's impressive regardless, and we've yet to factor in that Surik did fight through Sion's immortality herself by striking him down multiple times, and this happened whilst she was "drowned in the dark side" and he was being amped an equivalent amount.

I'm accepting your concession for this discussion and all past and future ones.

As accomplished as Surik is she isn't beating Kenobi where Vader failed.

Not saying Surik beats Obi-Wan - in sabers, at least. Factoring in the Force, I'm inclined to believe that it's a different story.

Well it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, and Meetra doesn't really use the Force combatively.

Altogether I reckon Kenobi can hold off the Outlander or Surik long enough for Anakin or Windu to defeat whomever's left beside Revan. At which point Team 1 are outnumbered and will eventually lose.

Darth Bandon

Originally posted by MythLord
CW team wins; Anakin > Revan, Mace > Outlander, Obi > Surik.

So are you going to reply to me and Nova on CV or are you taking a page from DMB and shitting on characters until a debate starts, then running.

I have like, a dozen people to respond to, lol.

Plus I'm busy so I'll need more time(so far, I only have time to squash fodder). Hey, it took you months to respond to DMB once, so I got all the time in the world. Might just respond in 2017, for all you know

Originally posted by MythLord
Plus I'm busy so I'll need more time(so far, I only have time to squash fodder). Hey, it took you months to respond to DMB once, so I got all the time in the world. Might just respond in 2017, for all you know

Huh, I didn't realise it took you that long to type out a concession

Roasted.

Originally posted by Selenial
Huh, I didn't realise it took you that long to type out a concession

Jokes are a cheap tactic to make weak debaters seem smarter.

Originally posted by MythLord
Jokes are a cheap tactic to make weak debaters seem smarter.

CaV me.

Team 2

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, and Meetra doesn't really use the Force combatively.
You sure about that?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Team doesn't need to carry Meetra, she is easily on Kenobi's level.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Team 2


You sure about that? Yes dear.

Originally posted by carthage
AP's headcanon is strong, I mean killing featless Sith trainees and getting stomped by Nyriss totally means she can beat someone that can stalemate Vader.


Meetra Surik defeated Darths Sion and Traya in a fair manner.

Darth Nyriss won because she denied her opponents the opportunity to mount an effective offensive since the get-go.

In a neutral environment, I am inclined to believe that Darth Nyriss and Meetra Surik are really close in raw power.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes dear.
Here is an example:

As he fell to the ground, Meetra thrust her free hand out toward the next closest soldier, palm open. The woman flew backward, lifted off her feet and hurtled across the cave by the Force until she slammed into the rock face of the far wall. She slid to the ground, dead.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Originally posted by Selenial
CaV me.

Meh, why not? Though I do immediately expect Ant, Aurbere or whoever has a distaste for me and simultaneous liking for you would automatically vote for you so, that's 50% of the votes right there.

Originally posted by MythLord
Meh, why not? Though I do immediately expect Ant, Aurbere or whoever has a distaste for me and simultaneous liking for you would automatically vote for you so, that's 50% of the votes right there.



Characters?

We can do this match-up if you want, but I don't debate the Outlander so we'd have to swap him for Traya.

Edit: Also, hard for you to talk about bias when, thanks to a certain someone, half of ComicVine hate me without having ever come across me mmm

Originally posted by MythLord
CW team wins; Anakin > Revan, Mace > Outlander, Obi > Surik. lol @ Anakin being above Revan. Surik is overall on Kenobi's level as is The Outlander to Windu.

Originally posted by Selenial
Characters?

We can do this match-up if you want, but I don't debate the Outlander so we'd have to swap him for Traya.

Edit: Also, hard for you to talk about bias when, thanks to a certain someone, half of ComicVine hate me without having ever come across me mmm

Meh, this match up doesn't speak to me... How about... Kas'im versus Shaak Ti?
Nah, JK... Meetra Surik versus someone?

Most people that matter like you, though, and I hardly have many fans on CV to begin with

Originally posted by darthbane77
lol @ Anakin being above Revan.

Instead of using an appeal to stone, you can actually attempt to form a cohesive and coherent argument as to why and how Revan is beating Skywalker.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Surik is overall on Kenobi's level as is The Outlander to Windu.

Nah, not really.

Originally posted by MythLord
Meh, this match up doesn't speak to me... How about... Kas'im versus Shaak Ti?
Nah, JK... Meetra Surik versus someone?

Most people that matter like you, though, and I hardly have many fans on CV to begin with

I'll vote for you 'cause Sel is a ****ing c-unt

I want unbiased votings. I honour the truthful way to win. Vote for those who have better arguments, not those u like moar, Zoltan, filthy immoral kunt.

What do you mean like more? There are people I hate, and people I hate a little bit less.

oh right, ur from Hungary. Filthy pigs!

Don't worry myth, Zoltan loves me.

@Zoltan: was re-reading the utter carnage that was the voting stage of my match against Tunewalker. If you're looking for some entertainment, 11/10 would recommend.

Originally posted by MythLord
Meh, this match up doesn't speak to me... How about... Kas'im versus Shaak Ti?
Nah, JK... Meetra Surik versus someone?

Most people that matter like you, though, and I hardly have many fans on CV to begin with

I enjoy team matchups more, I've been arguing Surik/Traya/Revan for years, but arguing for numerous at the same time feels more fresh. Being brutally honest, if you want to make sure I finish the CaV, a team battle may be a more reliable way of keeping my attention

Though I'm open to 1v1 if it doesn't suit your fancy.

Meh, I can do team battles I guess. I just dunno what match up...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Is this salt because you said Sion had no accolades, and then when I showed you some, you started to revert to a "these vague accolades don't mean anything" stance? A textbook and mundane application of goal post-shifting, I'm afraid.

And we've already explained what Sion has, which is more than just accolades for being "ultra-powerful". As the head of an organization which is hierarchically based on the number of Jedi kills attained, with the organization having killed tens of thousands of them in their prime, it's probable that Sion killed dozens, if not hundreds of Jedi, who, on average, are the best fighters in history. Sure, this factors in his immortality, but it's impressive regardless, and we've yet to factor in that Surik did fight through Sion's immortality herself by striking him down multiple times, and this happened whilst she was "drowned in the dark side" and he was being amped an equivalent amount.

I'm accepting your concession for this discussion and all past and future ones.

A lot of the accolades you mentioned in your respect thread don't even directly mention Sion.

Which is too ambiguous to use in a RT.

"He was named directly in the book as one of the sith mmm"

I get that he was named, but it doesn't automatically mean he was thrown in with every sith named there.

Yeah, but PROBABLE isn't enough.

For example, I have Marka Ragnos ranked pretty high, not because they say he's "powerful", but because they claim he's the best of the best.

Star Wars versus threads are based on powerscaling and comparisons, NOT assumptions, you need something to compare him to.

If all I had in an argument was that he's "ultra-powerful".

And that he's able to have immortality of his own accord, thats not enough to put him up in the big leagues, and I honestly don't see why anyone, even you, think it is.

Damn Nova, the dude just ended your career.

Originally posted by Selenial
@Zoltan: was re-reading the utter carnage that was the voting stage of my match against Tunewalker. If you're looking for some entertainment, 11/10 would recommend.

I actually did that a few weeks ago. Those were some fun times

Originally posted by MythLord
Meh, I can do team battles I guess. I just dunno what match up...

She's gona exploit the Force Bond angle so make sure to pick individually superior characters

Sorry Sel.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
She's gona exploit the Force Bond angle so make sure to pick individually superior characters

Sorry Sel.

**** you

I'll make sure to pick characters that can Force Meld

Right, well if I was going for Traya/Surik/Revan, who'd you pick?

Originally posted by MythLord
Instead of using an appeal to stone, you can actually attempt to form a cohesive and coherent argument as to why and how Revan is beating Skywalker.



Nah, not really. I'll do so soon.

Originally posted by MythLord
Instead of using an appeal to stone, you can actually attempt to form a cohesive and coherent argument as to why and how Revan is beating Skywalker.
Revan, one of the greatest psychological warfare masters in history, with Vitiate-affecting telepathy to boot, can undermine one of the most unstable characters in the mythos.

So TP, which Revan doesn't really abuse that much?

@Sel

Are Kyp, Mara and Luke(around DE, lets say, who shouldn't be far ahead of Revan)OK?

Originally posted by MythLord
Are Kyp, Mara and Luke(around DE, lets say, who shouldn't be far ahead of Revan)OK?

All aids, ngl.

Seriously though, imo it should be Kyp or Luke, having both seems a bit... excessive.

Originally posted by MythLord
So TP, which Revan doesn't really abuse that much?
He abused psychological warfare extensively during the Mando and JCW, so no.

That... isn't really the same thing.

I do agree with you tho.

Originally posted by Selenial
All aids, ngl.

Seriously though, imo it should be Kyp or Luke, having both seems a bit... excessive.

How come? I don't think any other Jedi during this time has the chops to take on Revan, Durron included, so my choice was DE Luke.

You want to use Kyp Fuggon? mmm

I'm voting Sel

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You want to use Kyp Fuggon? mmm

I'm voting Sel

Fug u, Kyp is awesome.

kek

Originally posted by MythLord
So TP, which Revan doesn't really abuse that much?

@Sel

Are Kyp, Mara and Luke(around DE, lets say, who shouldn't be far ahead of Revan)OK? Revan used the **** out of TP in SoR, his psychological tactics and intelligence are more than enough to make an already unstable Skywalker lose his mind, and Revan has displayed far more knowledge and power than Anakin ever has; save for on Mortis anyway.

Originally posted by MythLord
How come? I don't think any other Jedi during this time has the chops to take on Revan, Durron included, so my choice was DE Luke.

Well, because you're picking a character you've already admitted you think is > Revan, and then want to use one of the most controversial characters in the mythos who many place on Revan's level as well mmm

I consider DE Luke and Revan close and flip flop a lot on that. Anyways, who considers Kyp Revan level in anything but power, really?

The Outlander can beat Kyp. Dew it, Sel.

Durron isn't even above KotOR Revan, lol.

Durron isn't even above the shit I took this morning.

Originally posted by BazookaMaster
Three greatest heroes of Old Republic and Clone Wars in all out match.

Starting distance is only 1 meter!

Clone Wars team:
- Mace Windu
- Anakin Skywalker
- Obi-Wan Kenobi

Old Republic team:
- Revan
- Meetra Surik
- Outlander

Mace Windu holds off Revan, Anakin defeats the Outlander and Kenobi edges Surik.

Or, Anakin holds off Revan and Kenobi vs. Outlander lasts longer than Windu vs. Surik, so they pair up and kill the remainders.

Revan ragdolling Marr, Lana and Satele and Force Waving the whole Strike Team including Nox/Wrath means he can ragdoll Windu. Dude isn't holding him off.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Outlander can beat Kyp. Dew it, Sel.

I'm not taking the Outlander, but fine, I'll accept that team mmm

Make the thread, you're going first

Oh the Kyp hate. Wut would DC say, lads?

Originally posted by Selenial
I'm not taking the Outlander, but fine, I'll accept that team mmm

Make the thread, you're going first

Baby, I never go first. I finish last. Besides, if I'm going first, you'll need to make the thread

So I'll make da thread, but you'll go first.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan ragdolling Marr, Lana and Satele and Force Waving the whole Strike Team including Nox/Wrath means he can ragdoll Windu. Dude isn't holding him off.

Revan ragdolling Windu means he can beat Yoda/Sidious. He can't.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Durron isn't even above the shit I took this morning.

Poor Kyper, lol.

Originally posted by Petrus
Revan ragdolling Windu means he can beat Yoda/Sidious. He can't.

No, it doesn't. But its not like Revan is far from those two anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it doesn't.

You think Windu is that far below those two?

Yeah, at least as far below as Dooku is. Probably further.

And Sidious ragdolled Dooku. Not to mention Maul + Savage, neither of which are too far from Dooku or Windu. Maul is probably a stronger Force Wielder than Windu, in fact.

Eh, I have Windu above Dooku, though the margin is questionable.

This thread took a turn for the worst.

y Wulf

Originally posted by MythLord
Baby, I never go first. I finish last. Besides, if I'm going first, you'll need to make the thread

So I'll make da thread, but you'll go first.

If you want this CaV to happen, you'll go first

Originally posted by Petrus
y Wulf

He likes licking Dooku's sagging ballsack.

Originally posted by Petrus
Eh, I have Windu above Dooku, though the margin is questionable.

Dooku has better force feats than Windu, plus better accolades and hype.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku has better force feats than Windu, plus better accolades and hype.

Windu defeated Sidious.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He likes licking Dooku's sagging ballsack.

Then I wouldn't mind the thread because Neph keeps saying dat Dooku > Mace

Originally posted by Selenial
If you want this CaV to happen, you'll go first

No, I insist. Ladies first.

Originally posted by Petrus
Windu defeated Sidious.

Not in the force. He "beat" him using Vaapad, a huge rage amp and shatterpoint. Windu isn't conventionally anywhere near Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not in the force. He "beat" him using Vaapad, a huge rage amp and shatterpoint. Windu isn't conventionally anywhere near Sidious.

Why the apostrophes, though? You are one of those who believes he threw the fight?

Either way, Dooku wouldn't be able to beat Sidious in any way, conventional or not. Not even once. And those advantages would also be used against Revan.

Only when its convenient.

But Dooku can beat Windu, and has. He wouldn't get a Vaapad boost or a rage amp against Revan and those are the two things that let him hang with Sidious. Nor can he reflect Revan's TK like he can Sidious' lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only when its convenient.

But Dooku can beat Windu, and has. He wouldn't get a Vaapad boost or a rage amp against Revan and those are the two things that let him hang with Sidious. Nor can he reflect Revan's TK like he can Sidious' lightning.

When did Dooku beat Windu without his MagnaGuards pulling him down?

And why wouldn't Windu get a Vaapad boost if this is SoR Revan? Shatterpoint's also there.

Windu was able to hold off and reflect Sidious' extremely potent lightning. Why wouldn't he be able to resist Revan's TK?

Also, Windu > Revan in terms of dueling skills.

Originally posted by Petrus
When did Dooku beat Windu without his MagnaGuards pulling him down?

Pre-TPM as a Jedi in sparring

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Pre-TPM as a Jedi in sparring

lel, not the same at all.

Originally posted by Petrus
Windu defeated Sidious.

By skill of a lightsaber, not with the force. :/

Originally posted by Petrus
When did Dooku beat Windu without his MagnaGuards pulling him down?

And why wouldn't Windu get a Vaapad boost if this is SoR Revan? Shatterpoint's also there.

Windu was able to hold off and reflect Sidious' extremely potent lightning. Why wouldn't he be able to resist Revan's TK?

Also, Windu > Revan in terms of dueling skills.

By the end of his life, Revan was a Jedi at heart, and this includes his good side and bad side. :/

Originally posted by Jmanghan
By skill of a lightsaber, not with the force. :/

Windu's lightsaber skills > Revan's. Revan is Windu's superior when it comes to Force power, but he's definitely not ragdolling him at all, not even close.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
By the end of his life, Revan was a Jedi at heart, and this includes his good side and bad side. :/

This is peak Revan, so that would mean it's SoR Revan. As in, the Revan who fights the Strike Team. He's dark sided.

Originally posted by Petrus
Windu's lightsaber skills > Revan's. Revan is Windu's superior when it comes to Force power, but he's definitely not ragdolling him at all, not even close. Yeah, I never disputed your first point.

...And why... is that?

Revan did fine TK'ing a group of 8 powerful combatants at once.

I don't see why he couldn't Ragdoll Windu, he's incredibly inferior to Revan in terms of Force Power.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Yeah, I never disputed your first point.

...And why... is that?

Revan did fine TK'ing a group of 8 powerful combatants at once.

I don't see why he couldn't Ragdoll Windu, he's incredibly inferior to Revan in terms of Force Power.

He definitely is, but not as inferior as you think, considering someone as powerful as Sidious didn't even come close to ragdolling him.

Windu is also superior to any of those 8 combatants, by a good margin.

Sid could have blitzed Windu had he really wanted, but he wanted to use Windu to help turn Anakin dark. Revan is debatably on the same level as ROTS Sidious in the Force (though Revan can by no means beat Sid), Revan being on that level, and having no reason to keep Windu alive (like Sid did) spells deatth for Windu.

Originally posted by Petrus
When did Dooku beat Windu without his MagnaGuards pulling him down?

And why wouldn't Windu get a Vaapad boost if this is SoR Revan? Shatterpoint's also there.

Windu was able to hold off and reflect Sidious' extremely potent lightning. Why wouldn't he be able to resist Revan's TK?

Also, Windu > Revan in terms of dueling skills.

The point is that Dooku could beat Windu. He's comparable, if not superior, as a swordsman and is more powerful than Windu is with a greater ability to utilise the Force mid-duel.

Windu won't get a chance to use Shatterpoint or Vaapad when he's dangling in the air.

Vaapad won't help him against Revan's lightning and Windu is laughably inferior to Revan in TK.

Revan can teleport. He doesn't even need to duel Windu if he doesn't want to.

Originally posted by Petrus
Windu is also superior to any of those 8 combatants, by a good margin.

Gross. Nox, Wrath, Thor and HoT are every bit as powerful as Windu, easily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The point is that Dooku could beat Windu. He's comparable, if not superior, as a swordsman and is more powerful than Windu is with a greater ability to utilise the Force mid-duel.

Windu won't get a chance to use Shatterpoint or Vaapad when he's dangling in the air.

Vaapad won't help him against Revan's lightning and Windu is laughably inferior to Revan in TK.

Revan can teleport. He doesn't even need to duel Windu if he doesn't want to.

They're comparable, yes, but Windu's ultimately superior imo.

If Windu manages to close in, Revan could lose. Could.

What's to say Revan can TK Windu as easily? Windu's defenses are good enough to full-on resist and reflect Sidious' extremely powerful lightning. That also means he's capable of resisting Revan's lightning.

I'm not saying Windu would win, though. I'm saying he can hold him off long enough.

Originally posted by MythLord
Then I wouldn't mind the thread because Neph keeps saying dat Dooku > Mace



No, I insist. Ladies first.

No.

I'm the guest

Originally posted by Nephthys
The point is that Dooku could beat Windu. He's comparable, if not superior, as a swordsman and is more powerful than Windu is with a greater ability to utilise the Force mid-duel.

Windu won't get a chance to use Shatterpoint or Vaapad when he's dangling in the air.

Vaapad won't help him against Revan's lightning and Windu is laughably inferior to Revan in TK.

Revan can teleport. He doesn't even need to duel Windu if he doesn't want to.



Gross. Nox, Wrath, Thor and HoT are every bit as powerful as Windu, easily. I agree with this. (Next part is for everybody) I see nothing making Windu vastly superior to any of TOR's Force using protagonists. Windu may be a better duelist, that I can easily see (though he's not far superior to them, just superior) but HoT and Wrath at least are a stronger in the Force, and Nox being among the top members of the Dark Council puts him at least on Windu's level in the Force; most likely above him.

Originally posted by Petrus
They're comparable, yes, but Windu's ultimately superior imo.

If Windu manages to close in, Revan could lose. Could.

What's to say Revan can TK Windu as easily? Windu's defenses are good enough to full-on resist and reflect Sidious' extremely powerful lightning. That also means he's capable of resisting Revan's lightning.

I'm not saying Windu would win, though. I'm saying he can hold him off long enough.

His lightning, but Sidious never once tried to ragdoll him.

Revan is good enough in sabers to hold off Windu as well.

Originally posted by Petrus
This is peak Revan, so that would mean it's SoR Revan. As in, the Revan who fights the Strike Team. He's dark sided. Peak Revan is the hypothetical combination of SoR Dark Revan and Spirit Revan.

Originally posted by Petrus
They're comparable, yes, but Windu's ultimately superior imo.

If Windu manages to close in, Revan could lose. Could.

What's to say Revan can TK Windu as easily? Windu's defenses are good enough to full-on resist and reflect Sidious' extremely powerful lightning. That also means he's capable of resisting Revan's lightning.

I'm not saying Windu would win, though. I'm saying he can hold him off long enough.

Literally the only thing indicating that is the Sidious fight, which was highly circumstantial.

Nah. Revan could easily teleport away or push Windu back.

Windu has no TK showings near Revan's level. Windu reflected Sidious' lightning with Vaapad, theres no indication that would work with TK. Windu may be able to reflect Revan's lightning, but thats hardly Revan's go-to technique and who knows how effectively Windu can deal with Revan's Force Storm AoE.

He couldn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Literally the only thing indicating that is the Sidious fight, which was highly circumstantial.

Nah. Revan could easily teleport away or push Windu back.

Windu has no TK showings near Revan's level. Windu reflected Sidious' lightning with Vaapad, theres no indication that would work with TK. Windu may be able to reflect Revan's lightning, but thats hardly Revan's go-to technique and who knows how effectively Windu can deal with Revan's Force Storm AoE.

He couldn't.

...Neph, buddy, please don't tell me you're trying to argue that Revan is Windu's superior in sabers?

That isn't the only thing that puts Windu up there, Windu is constantly stated to be the second best duelist in the Jedi Order, if not the best, above Yoda, several times. Though there's more evidence pointing to Yoda being his superior.

Where did you get that I was saying that in my post?

I mean the only thing indicating that Windu > Dooku.

I have to go, I'll reply tomorrow.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Damn Nova, the dude just ended your career.

Nah. I've already accepted his concession for this discussion and all past and future ones.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan, one of the greatest psychological warfare masters in history, with Vitiate-affecting telepathy to boot, can undermine one of the most unstable characters in the mythos.

Master of psychological warfare or not, Revan can't and won't manipulate someone he knows nothing about while engaged in a duel that's unlikely to last more than a few minutes. The idea that RotS-era Anakin is one of the most unstable characters in the mythos prior to his fall is also cancerous, for the record. Don't make me disown you.

Also, while Revan was capable of influencing Vitiate telepathically--which, mind you, may have been retconned by KOTFE besides--he only did so by tracing back a mental channel ala Vol/Abeloth, in a situation where he could focus all of his resources into doing so. He couldn't and didn't do so during his fight with Vitiate, or anyone else of note on record. So I'm going to need a little more on that front to convince me that it will be Anakin ****ing Skywalker's undoing, thank you much~

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Master of psychological warfare or not, Revan can't and won't manipulate someone he knows nothing about while engaged in a duel that's unlikely to last more than a few minutes.
Dooku could easily sense the inner turmoil within Skywalker. Hell, even when watching Holovideos, Luke and Jacen could visibly *see* it.

Revan, who's foremost teachings to the Sith Assassins was to how to break the minds of the Jedi they fought, is going to use that to his advantage.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
The idea that RotS-era Anakin is one of the most unstable characters in the mythos prior to his fall is also cancerous, for the record.
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger. But he is not stable. You know it. We all do."

Right.


It wasn't.


Not true, given Revan was also simultaneously defending his own mind and power from Vitiate and the Dread Master's meddling.


There's a massive distinction between couldn't and didn't. The fact he didn't doesn't mean he couldn't.


Having his power radiate and maintain a galactic disturbance in the Force, telepathically broadcasting a vision to Tari Darkspanner across the galaxy, and ripping information from the skulls of the Rakata and then implanting them with that of his own (note the Rakata are a highly-Force resistant species, with KotOR Revan failing to use mind tricks on them) also come to mind. As does his feat in Malachor V and corrupting hundreds of Jedi.


Given a simple taunt by Dooku was literally Skywalker's undoing, I'd be more concerned if Skywalker doesn't bash his head against a wall willingly after confronting someone like Revan.


Yawn.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Windu reflected Sidious' lightning with Vaapad, theres no indication that would work with TK.

He couldn't.

facepalm

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yRHjY0ayQ4M/hqdefault.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku could easily sense the inner turmoil within Skywalker.

Sense his turmoil, perhaps; but knowing the source of that turmoil and exploiting it is something only someone with a history with Skywalker would reasonably be expected to do.



Then I assume it would be no trouble to request an example of him employing this tactic against a relevant opponent?



uhuh Disowned.



Oh? You're telling me that there wasn't an alternative explanation for Vitiate's silence in the new expansion?



Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.



Then it means that he wouldn't.



Anakin is not some random Rakata, and this fight doesn't take place on Malachor. Your position has no grounds to stand on.

The text has Dooku discovering Skywalker's fear and then deciding to use it against him by taunting him about it.

It has nothing to do with an extensive history with Skywalker. Anyone remotely proficient at Force sense and Don Moch could replicate it.

Let alone someone on the caliber of Revan.


HK-47 says the following in KotOR II based on the tactics Revan taught him:

"If his strength comes from his connection to the Force, then you must undermine that connection, master."

"How would I do that?"

"Doubt, master. It has killed many Jedi, and it has killed many Sith. Make him doubt himself, his beliefs, or his intentions. Such things disrupt connections to the Force - and death soon follows."

Funnily enough, that's exactly what Dooku does to **** over Skywalker.

No, I don't have an example because Revan's adventures during the MW and JCW are ambiguous and not complete.

However, I do have numerous quotes highlighting both Revan's tactics and quotes saying he knows how to break Jedi.

And that's good enough for me.


Hm?


Your point was misleading. I clarified the circumstances.


No, it means that he didn't - nothing more. Plus, the nexus was hindering his Force abilities.

Using telepathy in a battle against Skywalker is much different against someone like Vitiate.

The fact I have to specify that makes me upset. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/uhuh.gif


The One and the Elders honestly probably have better mental defenses than Skywalker.

The species is, in many ways, immune to the Force.

Revan as of KotOR failed to affect the One or the Elders with telepathy, despite the fact he was able to mind trick Hutts and what not earlier on in his travels.

Yet that didn't stop Darth Revan from doing what he did.


You're missing the point.


http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/17/73/92/12/arcann11.png

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The text has Dooku discovering Skywalker's fear and then deciding to use it against him by taunting him about it.

It has nothing to do with an extensive history with Skywalker. Anyone remotely proficient at Force sense and Don Moch could replicate it.

Possible. Or it could backfire royally like it did in the film adaptation of RotS. Taunting Anakin is a risky game--especially without Dooku's years of personal history to draw on, no?



Conveniently for me, the Revan who had "adventures" during the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil wars isn't the Revan who we're discussing, and the Revan that came afterward never once employed such tactics.



Hint: Zakuul.



And Malak?



You didn't even take that golden opportunity to make a high ground joke? Words can not describe my disappointment.

Originally posted by Selenial
No.

I'm the guest

All the more reason you go first, dear.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku could easily sense the inner turmoil within Skywalker. Hell, even when watching Holovideos, Luke and Jacen could visibly *see* it.

Revan, who's foremost teachings to the Sith Assassins was to how to break the minds of the Jedi they fought, is going to use that to his advantage.



"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger. But he is not stable. You know it. We all do."

Right.


It wasn't.


Not true, given Revan was also simultaneously defending his own mind and power from Vitiate and the Dread Master's meddling.


There's a massive distinction between couldn't and didn't. The fact he didn't doesn't mean he couldn't.


Having his power radiate and maintain a galactic disturbance in the Force, telepathically broadcasting a vision to Tari Darkspanner across the galaxy, and ripping information from the skulls of the Rakata and then implanting them with that of his own (note the Rakata are a highly-Force resistant species, with KotOR Revan failing to use mind tricks on them) also come to mind. As does his feat in Malachor V and corrupting hundreds of Jedi.


Given a simple taunt by Dooku was literally Skywalker's undoing, I'd be more concerned if Skywalker doesn't bash his head against a wall willingly after confronting someone like Revan.


Yawn.