Jessica Jones vs. Nite Owl

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



carthage
H2H only

FrothByte
Nite Owl breaks her bones.

TheVaultDweller
I can see Nite Owl using his superior fighting skills to get the win, but I don't know if he could break her bones. Only thing that managed to do so on the show was getting hit by a truck, IIRC. Nite Owl hits hard, but he doesn't hit that hard. He should be able to hit hard enough that a couple of solid hits should KO her though.

KingD19
The truck fractured her ribs iirc.

And I don't even see Nite Owl ko'ing her period. She took hits from a mind controlled, non holding back Cage. And his trailer alone shows just how strong he is. She'd have to stand there and let him have a ton of free shots to the jaw/temple for him to take her down imo. Because this is JOnes when PIS isn't involved to keep PM save for another episode. Like getting hit by a 130lb ginger waif with a 2x4 and going down.

wakkawakkawakka
So I re-watched Jessica's fight with Luke and she did much better than I initially remembered. Still not sure she'd be able to win and unlike Luke she's not "unbreakable". While Nite Owl would need several hits to bring Jessica down, all she needs is to connect once to secure a win.

If anyone wants to reference said fight I'll post it here:
I2RivIH2wtk

TheVaultDweller
Yeah, I have to say, kind of unsure now, rechecking the fight. Luke >>>>> Nite Owl in strength, and she managed to soak up multiple blows from him. And as KingD pointed out, the latest trailer gave us a more explicit showing of how strong Luke actually is, stopping a large, speeding SUV dead in its tracks, and wrecking the entire front of it in the process.

FrothByte

TheVaultDweller
Yeah, but both those instances required her to job to allow Kilgrave to escape. He was making a run for it when she had to fight the guys with stun batons, and he was tied up in her apartment when the ginger knocked her out. And that doesn't dismiss the truck hit, or her fight with Luke, or surviving her multiple "guided falling" landings without injury. Jessica has low ends, but she also has high end showings. What did Nite Owl do, other than beat up some street and prison thugs? Fact is the only person Nite Owl ever fought with enhanced durability (Ozy) soaked up his hits without much hassle.

Put it this way, how long do you think Nite Owl would last against a Luke Cage out to kill him? I don't see him lasting very long at all.

FrothByte
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yeah, but both those instances required her to job to allow Kilgrave to escape. He was making a run for it when she had to fight the guys with stun batons, and he was tied up in her apartment when the ginger knocked her out. And that doesn't dismiss the truck hit, or her fight with Luke, or surviving her multiple "guided falling" landings without injury. Jessica has low ends, but she also has high end showings. What did Nite Owl do, other than beat up some street and prison thugs? Fact is the only person Nite Owl ever fought with enhanced durability (Ozy) soaked up his hits without much hassle.

Put it this way, how long do you think Nite Owl would last against a Luke Cage out to kill him? I don't see him lasting very long at all.

She also got easily cut by shards of glass. I won't ignore her low showings and just focus on high showings, same way I won't consider Michael Jordan's best game as indicative of his usual game. So I'll take the average.

In any case, it's clear that Jessica can be hurt by normal humans. Yes she's more durable than most but the skill difference between her and NO is too big IMO. He might have trouble taking her out but I doubt she'll land even a single hit on NO.

KingD19
Blunt force v piercing damage has always been a different category in comics. We all know this. Sure a sword would mess her up as she's durable to blunt force damage only...like Nite Owl punching and kicking her.

FrothByte

KingD19
Vault and myself have already explained it. It's a clear case of PIS, as her low showings all coincide with her being in the vicinity of Purple Man, and about to take him down.

But he had to survive until the end of the season, so her durability dropped sharply every time he needed to escape. Look at her fight with Luke. If she can take that amount of punishment and walk away pretty much fine, how in the hell could that redhaired b*tch(because I really hate her) with a 2x4 knock her out? She couldn't, except the plot demanded it. It can't be explained any simpler than that.

wakkawakkawakka
There was the security guards and Nuke that were able to damage Jessica. From what I gathered watching Jessica Jones is that while it takes more hits to bring Jessica down, she appears to take damage like a normal person.

KingD19
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
There was the security guards and Nuke that were able to damage Jessica. From what I gathered watching Jessica Jones is that while it takes more hits to bring Jessica down, she appears to take damage like a normal person.

Purple Man's security guards, who delayed her, surprise, just long enough for him to escape. Nuke, even on his pill was able to hurt her by his own admission because she was injured from getting hit by a delivery truck going 45mph. He said if she was at 100%, she'd have kicked his ass by then.

TheVaultDweller
Okay Froth, let me ask you this. Who do you think hits harder? Luke Cage or ginger-girl with a piece of wood? Fact is the fight against Luke Cage happened. And if you choose to focus on one set of feats, and give Nite Owl the win based on those, you can't fault other people for focusing on others, and disagreeing, especially considering the context of all the feats in question.

And that's the issue with JJ in versus matches. The plot-induced power fluctuations make it somewhat difficult to figure out a consistent level by which to judge her.

wakkawakkawakka

KingD19
I never said she shrugged it off. It sent her flying, knocked her silly and fractured her ribs. But it took getting rammed into by a 5+ ton truck going at least 35mph to hurt her to that point. That would have crippled if not killed Nite Owl.

FrothByte
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Okay Froth, let me ask you this. Who do you think hits harder? Luke Cage or ginger-girl with a piece of wood? Fact is the fight against Luke Cage happened. And if you choose to focus on one set of feats, and give Nite Owl the win based on those, you can't fault other people for focusing on others, and disagreeing, especially considering the context of all the feats in question.

And that's the issue with JJ in versus matches. The plot-induced power fluctuations make it somewhat difficult to figure out a consistent level by which to judge her.

Here's what I think: Jessica Jones has been shown multiple times to get hurt by things that hurt normal people. She might be able to tank it better and she seems to have some form of accelerated healing, but she can still get downed by things normal people get taken out with.

Luke Cage obviously hits harder than girl with 2x4. But girl with 2x4 took a cheapshot at Jessica when she wasn't prepared. Being prepared for a hit does wonders with how well you can take a hit.

Now she'll be prepared for NO obviously, but from what I saw of her fighting she seems almost clueless in terms of fighting style, depending instead on pure strength to pull her through.

My point is, it will take Night Owl longer to take her down as opposed to normal opponents, but I seriously doubt JJ can land a proper hit on NO. And considering that JJ can actually get hurt by security guards, eventually NO will be able to take her out.

And to address your first point: JJ fought Luke Cage once. That's 1 feat where she displayed the ability to tank superhuman hits. Getting KOd by ginger girl, cut by glass, getting beat up by security guards are multiple instances. I choose to go with multiple feats instead of focusing on just 1.

Even when she survived getting hit by the truck, she was still completely messed up by it. So yeah, that shows higher than human durability but not that much. Or at least not much in comparison to other action heroes.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by FrothByte
Here's what I think: Jessica Jones has been shown multiple times to get hurt by things that hurt normal people. She might be able to tank it better and she seems to have some form of accelerated healing, but she can still get downed by things normal people get taken out with.

Luke Cage obviously hits harder than girl with 2x4. But girl with 2x4 took a cheapshot at Jessica when she wasn't prepared. Being prepared for a hit does wonders with how well you can take a hit.

Now she'll be prepared for NO obviously, but from what I saw of her fighting she seems almost clueless in terms of fighting style, depending instead on pure strength to pull her through.

My point is, it will take Night Owl longer to take her down as opposed to normal opponents, but I seriously doubt JJ can land a proper hit on NO. And considering that JJ can actually get hurt by security guards, eventually NO will be able to take her out.

And to address your first point: JJ fought Luke Cage once. That's 1 feat where she displayed the ability to tank superhuman hits. Getting KOd by ginger girl, cut by glass, getting beat up by security guards are multiple instances. I choose to go with multiple feats instead of focusing on just 1.

Even when she survived getting hit by the truck, she was still completely messed up by it. So yeah, that shows higher than human durability but not that much. Or at least not much in comparison to other action heroes.

Problem is there is no proof Nite Owl hits as hard as Cage, or a speeding truck for that matter. And she is not totally useless in a fight. She was arguably outfighting Cage. He was simply outmuscling her every time.

And as you said, the 2x4 was a cheap shot from behind. And getting "beat up" is a bit of an exaggeration. All they really did was delay her long enough for Kilgrave to escape. And no one said she was piercing proof. But being able to walk away from being hit by a truck (because she did walk away under her own power), and only fracturing some ribs, is WAY higher durability than a normal human. Then there is also the multiple instances where she has fallen impressive heights without any injury.

Fact is, if you go by low ends, then Nite Owl should win. But if you go by high end showings, Nite Owl won't be able to really hurt her. Because if you say you won't dismiss low-ends because she has high-end showings, I can flip that argument and say I won't ignore her high-end showings because she has some low-ends (many of which are tied directly to the plot).

Like I said, the issue is show inconsistency. The gap between Jessica's high and low end showings are so big, it's almost hard to believe it's the same character. Take another example. She can heal from a gunshot to the arm in a few days, to the point there is not even a scar. But a small scalpel cut behind her ear left a scar that appears permanent. And why? Because the plot needed that scar to be there so that Jessica could use it in her argument with Kilgrave.

FrothByte
NO doesn't need to hit as hard as Cage, he just needs to hit as hard as those security guards then hit her multiple times to take her down.

Jessica has never been shown to be impervious to hits that hurt normal humans.

Like I said in my previous post, JJ has way way more low end showings than she has high end showings. In fact she only has 1 high end showing (Cage fight) and one questionable showing (truck hit). The rest are low end showings. Don't know about you but I'd prefer to take the average.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by FrothByte
NO doesn't need to hit as hard as Cage, he just needs to hit as hard as those security guards then hit her multiple times to take her down.

Jessica has never been shown to be impervious to hits that hurt normal humans.

Like I said in my previous post, JJ has way way more low end showings than she has high end showings. In fact she only has 1 high end showing (Cage fight) and one questionable showing (truck hit). The rest are low end showings. Don't know about you but I'd prefer to take the average.

You need to rewatch that fight. None of their actual hits did anything. Jessica only went down when one of them dived her legs out from under her, from behind, and then a bunch of them kept repeatedly tazing her while she was on the ground, while more thugs rescued Kilgrave. So no, she did not simply go down to a bunch of human hits. And I don't recall Nite Owl packing a bunch of electric batons.

And she was also casually manhandling those guys when she and Luke fought that group in the bar. And in a later episode, when they are looking for that one other kid who had to do with Luke's wife's death, she also easily manhandles and overpowers a bunch of men. And I don't see how the truck hit is questionable. She walked away from the accident, and while she was initially stunned from the impact, the only actual damage she took was some rib fractures.

And what are all these low ends? So far, you've mentioned two. And both were plot-related. And one of them, quite frankly, you don't even seem to remember correctly.

KingD19
He's actively ignoring the fact that whenever Jess looked bad, it was because in the next few seconds, she'd have Kilgrave dead and done. And he had to survive till the last episode so PIS was necessary for him to escape.

Just like how Nite Owl apparently had the slowest/shittiest aim ever, because if he didn't, he'd have sliced Ozy in half with that laser and the movie would have immediately ended.

TheVaultDweller
I just want to know what all those low ends are. Honestly, I am curious. Because the only relevant "low end" here that has been mentioned is the 2x4, and that was directly related to the plot. Because the fact that multiple guys had to continuously shock Jessica just to keep her off her feet, during the other showing, actually hurts the argument for Nite Owl winning.

golem370
Jessica was holding back maybe because of killing Cage's wife but she is clearly strong enough to handle normal people even manhandled them. Cage punched or threw her across a huge room but she showed some decent speed catching up with the guy in a Aston Martin.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by golem370
she showed some decent speed catching up with the guy in a Aston Martin.

Well, it was mentioned during a conversation with Simpson, IIRC, that she can run a mile in under 4 minutes.

wakkawakkawakka
Not sure how that would help here as normal folks have no problem tagging Jessica, even if they get tossed around like they did in the bar fight.

Though looking at the Luke Cafe trailer/teaser again I'm not sure if his fight with Jessica is a high for her or a low for him: because the stuff he did in both was more empressive than anything he did in JJ save for tanking the bar explosion.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Not sure how that would help here as normal folks have no problem tagging Jessica, even if they get tossed around like they did in the bar fight.

The only regular people who had a really "easy" time of tagging her were people like Simpson, who is a trained combatant, and Luke, who could simply smash through her guard. Plus, she was injured when fighting Simpson, and he was hopped up on his Nuke drugs. There are a bunch of showings in fights where she actually quite easily dodges and catches blows from regular human opponents, including the one with the guys with the stun batons. For example, at one point she catches the arm of one of the people trying to taz her, and shocks him with his own baton. In that other fight I mentioned, where she and Luke were looking for that kid, she also easily avoids the one guy taking swings at her with a pipe. She does get tagged sometimes, but it's not like she gets hit tons of times each fight. Often when people do tag her, it's attacking from behind.

And it's not like the caliber of opponent Nite Owl actually looked good against was anything special. He managed to beat up some street and prison thugs.

KingD19
And merely broke bones using a lot of effort, while Jones casually slings people around and holds back, as even a quick straight punch at full force is enough to instantly kill a person and send them flying.

TheVaultDweller
That is another thing to consider. Nite Owl was going for a lot of crippling blows in his fights, genuinely trying to hurt/main the people he was going up against. Jessica often made a point of restraining herself, so as not to accidentally seriously injure/kill anyone. Again, an example is the showing with the guys with batons. She was mostly grabbing and tossing them around, while trying to get through to them, "You're being controlled, assholes", but never made any attempts to seriously hurt any of them.

She held back a lot, because the people she tended to fight had been Kilgrave'd, so weren't responsible for their actions. And considering the last regular person she gave a full force punch to died, she'd more than likely try to avoid another situation like that. She won't be holding back here.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
The only regular people who had a really "easy" time of tagging her were people like Simpson, who is a trained combatant, and Luke, who could simply smash through her guard. Plus, she was injured when fighting Simpson, and he was hopped up on his Nuke drugs. There are a bunch of showings in fights where she actually quite easily dodges and catches blows from regular human opponents, including the one with the guys with the stun batons. For example, at one point she catches the arm of one of the people trying to taz her, and shocks him with his own baton. In that other fight I mentioned, where she and Luke were looking for that kid, she also easily avoids the one guy taking swings at her with a pipe. She does get tagged sometimes, but it's not like she gets hit tons of times each fight. Often when people do tag her, it's attacking from behind.


The point I was trying to make by that is while it is an impressive bit of information to know about Jessica, the feat itself is still within the realm of human capabilities: especially compared to something like Steve running about.

That is not to say NO wins as my stance has always been that Jessica only needs to connect one solid hit to win this match.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
The point I was trying to make by that is while it is an impressive bit of information to know about Jessica, the feat itself is still within the realm of human capabilities: especially compared to something like Steve running about


No human female has ever run a sub 4 minute mile in RL. Best time is 4:12 for a woman.

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
No human female has ever run a sub 4 minute mile in RL. Best time is 4:12 for a woman.
My mistake I had saw a run time for 3:43 and thought it was for females.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
My mistake I had saw a run time for 3:43 and thought it was for females.

It does make me wonder what she could do if she really tried to get into shape, and stopped drinking so much. laughing

KingD19
If she practiced hard enough, she could actually fly.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by KingD19
If she practiced hard enough, she could actually fly.

She seems reluctant to try to develop that ability. But I think it's kind of a homage to the comics, when her flight abilities kind of went down the toilet after being out of practice for a long time (that, or they didn't have the budget to make the flying look good). Though the ability has improved again more recently, comics-wise.

golem370
Like you would walk up to her and call an over weight sloppy drunk, who sleeps around with the woman she murdered husband.

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by golem370
Like you would walk up to her and call an over weight sloppy drunk, who sleeps around with the woman she murdered husband.

Anyone who thinks she is overweight needs glasses. The rest is true though. laughing

wakkawakkawakka
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It does make me wonder what she could do if she really tried to get into shape, and stopped drinking so much. laughing
If she actually trained she could probably get close to BP stats. Or at the very least lord over mooks easier.

FrothByte
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You need to rewatch that fight. None of their actual hits did anything. Jessica only went down when one of them dived her legs out from under her, from behind, and then a bunch of them kept repeatedly tazing her while she was on the ground, while more thugs rescued Kilgrave. So no, she did not simply go down to a bunch of human hits. And I don't recall Nite Owl packing a bunch of electric batons.

And she was also casually manhandling those guys when she and Luke fought that group in the bar. And in a later episode, when they are looking for that one other kid who had to do with Luke's wife's death, she also easily manhandles and overpowers a bunch of men. And I don't see how the truck hit is questionable. She walked away from the accident, and while she was initially stunned from the impact, the only actual damage she took was some rib fractures.

And what are all these low ends? So far, you've mentioned two. And both were plot-related. And one of them, quite frankly, you don't even seem to remember correctly.

Her getting hit by the truck messed her up bad. It would have killed a normal person, but let's not pretend that she simply walked away from it.

Anyway, I'm going to do the fair thing here and rewatch that fight with the security guards. I'll reply to your points then.

TheVaultDweller
Except she did walk away. Yes, she was battered and dazed, but she left under her own power, and the only lasting injuries she had were the ribs. So only fracturing some ribs from an impact you yourself admitted would kill a regular person is hardly a "questionable" showing IMO. In fact, based on what we visibly get shown, she wasn't even on the ground for a full minute (though I admit that is not always a solid time indicator). And when someone said an ambulance should be called, her response was, "Back off, I'm fine", before walking off.

And I did rewatch that fight, just to make sure of things. It's about 2/3 of the way into episode 5. None of those guys actually hit or kick her at all. They used the batons on her the entire time. And only managed to tag her twice (which she pretty much ignored) before the cheap shot from behind that took her down. It was only when three of them were repeatedly tazing her at the same time that it had any notable effect.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.