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LIGHTSABERS ONLY

ROTJ Luke
ROTS Kenobi
ROTS Dooku
Peak Arcann

Who wins?

Team 2, probably.

Team 2 most likely. Dooku stomps on Kenobi as usual, and ROTJ Luke has no chance against the combined strength of both Arcann and Dooku.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Dooku stomps on Kenobi as usual.

kek

Depends on how Luke does against Dooku.

Dooku has never stomped Kenobi :/

Even in AOTC.

Originally posted by MythLord
Team 2, probably.

Dooku > Luke = Obi-Wan > Arcann

Dooku takes Luke fairly quickly tbh, then they 2 v1 Arcann

Obi-Wan takes Arcann, assuming it stays Sabers only.

If the rules are switched, I feel like it would be better, because Obi-Wan knows Dooku's combat skills better, and if he really goes all-out, he could take a few wins against Dooku.

Not a majority, but at least 3/10 wins, possibly 4, but not 5.

He can't beat Dooku pal.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
He can't beat Dooku pal. He could beat Anakin though, right?

Regardless of how emoitionally conflicted he was against Kenobi.

If anything, that should have motivated Anakin and his dark side nature, thinking maybe if he killed Obi-Wan, he could save his wife.

Obi-Wan was not inferior in that fight, as shown when they were on that incredibly small platform going towards the "high ground".

The relevance of that is what exactly?

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
He can't beat Dooku pal. Just as well, you can't really say that, as the only time we see them fight in sabers only, Dooku is having a hard time with him in AOTC, and Kenobi nearly cuts him in half, which I would gladly point out if you wish.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
The relevance of that is what exactly? The relevance is that Anakin on the norm is superior in both augmentative abilities and saber skill to Dooku.

Anakin knew Obi-Wan just as well as Obi-Wan knew Anakin btw.

Funny how people try to downplay that feat.

Thinking Kenobi can't win a single round against Dooku in sabers only is utter cancer.

Dooku isn't Anakin. It's irrelevant. Their styles are different, their mindsets are different and Dooku has ragdolled Kenobi almost every time they've fought.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Dooku has ragdolled Kenobi almost every time they've fought.

They fought 3 times and Dooku only ragdolled once from which Kenobi could've broke out

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Dooku isn't Anakin. It's irrelevant. Their styles are different, their mindsets are different and Dooku has ragdolled Kenobi almost every time they've fought. "ragdolled".

Keyword.

Force Abilities do not mirror Saber Skill.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Thinking Kenobi can't win a single round against Dooku in sabers only is utter cancer.

He also thinks Vader could take Yoda, so there's that too.

In the Anakin and Kenobi vs Dooku fights, Kenobi has never posed a real threat honestly. Anakin was Dooku's main focus and Obi-Wan seems to be an afterthought

lmao

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
In the Anakin and Kenobi vs Dooku fights, Kenobi has never posed a real threat honestly. Anakin was Dooku's main focus and Obi-Wan seems to be an afterthought And they usually perform better alone then as a team, as shown during their fights.

In a team, they get taken by people like Savage Opress and Asajj Ventress, they don't lose, but its a struggle.

Yet when they're alone, they can outfence and outduel those same people and, not only that, embarrass those same people in a duel.

Taken down by a pissed off Savage who just force choked Ventress and Dooku together. Ventress pushes them hard whether they are together or not it makes little difference. Dooku has beaten Obi-Wan both alone and with company.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Taken down by a pissed off Savage who just force choked Ventress and Dooku together. Ventress pushes them hard whether they are together or not it makes little difference. Dooku has beaten Obi-Wan both alone and with company.

It doesn't mean he beats him every time, and yeah, he beat him... in AOTC, and he still had a hard time, and as I said, Kenobi almost killed him at one point.

And no, every time when Kenobi and Ventress fight alone, he embarrasses her

Also, later on, Kenobi was taking on Savage and Maul at the same time.

Yeah, as far as Savage ragdolling them goes, they were off-guard, Savage is nowhere near them in the force.

Yes, being off-guard does excuse getting ragdolled by inferior opponents, as you see Kanan and Ezra TK Vader when he's off-guard.

Curb stomping Ventress? No way. She contended with Anakin and Obi-Wan in sabers, showed better tactical ingenuity and used the environment better. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pzNbjhYANYQ

Curb stomping Ventress? No. Winning yes, but Ventress is horribly unrefined at this point and she still disarmed him.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2TNPxSxj0

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Curb stomping Ventress? No. Winning yes, but Ventress is horribly unrefined at this point and she still disarmed him.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2TNPxSxj0

He was winning without a saber, Kenobi was toying with her the entire time.

Thanks for the evidence in Kenobi's favor.

Kenobi stomped Ventress in like 15 seconds in TCW movie.

The Kenobi vs Maul and Savage fight. Maul and Savage were at a clear disadvantage here, in a confined space, both using elaborate styles which require a large amount of room Pull off certain movesets. Kenobi was bloodlusted as well :/ it was honestly nothing special, it's cool to see him use two sabers but he ended up getting ragdolled by Maul anyway

Originally posted by Jmanghan
He was winning without a saber, Kenobi was toying with her the entire time.

Thanks for the evidence in Kenobi's favor.

Ventress improved drastically throughout the clone wars... That was early TCW :/

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Maul and Savage were at a clear disadvantage here, in a confined space, both using elaborate styles which require a large amount of room Pull off certain movesets.

Lmao, 'cause Kenobi's Ataru doesn't.

And even if you reckon Obi-Wan smoked Ventress, he was still under slight stress. Late TCW Ventress got stomped by Dooku in an even more powerful way. He stripped her of her sabers and choked her out. Kenobi just had her on the back foot.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
The Kenobi vs Maul and Savage fight. Maul and Savage were at a clear disadvantage here, in a confined space, both using elaborate styles which require a large amount of room Pull off certain movesets. Kenobi was bloodlusted as well :/ it was honestly nothing special, it's cool to see him use two sabers but he ended up getting ragdolled by Maul anyway Kenobi isn't good in confined spaces either, Soresu is a defensive style, which wouldn't work well in a confined space.

Also, bloodlusted?...

Wtf...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Lmao, 'cause Kenobi's Ataru doesn't. I didn't know Kenobi knew Ataru, I thought he was Soresu only.

Gallia just died chief. He was pissed just look at his face. And lmao Soresu is perfect for small spaces, it's compact and far from elaborate. He was using Ataru anyway...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Lmao, 'cause Kenobi's Ataru doesn't.

Much less so than Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
I didn't know Kenobi knew Ataru, I thought he was Soresu only.

He mastered Ataru by TPM, and he used that in the duel against Maul and Savage.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
And even if you reckon Obi-Wan smoked Ventress, he was still under slight stress. Late TCW Ventress got stomped by Dooku in an even more powerful way. He stripped her of her sabers and choked her out. Kenobi just had her on the back foot.

"An even more powerful way".

English? Sure...

And Kenobi did the same thing to her...

When tf has Kenobi ever tried to choke anyone???...

What situation has Kenobi been in where he would need to choke Ventress?

He's not a sith, dude.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Gallia just died chief. He was pissed just look at his face. And lmao Soresu is perfect for small spaces, it's compact and far from elaborate. He was using Ataru anyway... Jedi don't get bloodlusted "Chief".

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Much less so than Maul and Savage. Because a style that relies heavily on acrobatics is more difficult to use in a confined space then Maul and Savage's style...

Yup.

Tell that to Anakin, Vos, Windu and Obi-Wan + more. They get pissed off.

It's not like Kenobi was winning that fight. Have you even seen it?

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Much less so than Maul and Savage.

Lmao you are full of shit as always.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Tell that to Anakin, Vos, Windu and Obi-Wan + more. They get pissed off. Pissed off doesn't equal Bloodlusted.

Bloodlusted is when you want nothing more then to kill within that moment.

Anakin, Vos, and Windu were all Jedi who had Fury and Anger, though Mace was different then the others.

Btw, when Kenobi DID get "bloodlusted" against Maul at one point, he got stomped.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
"An even more powerful way".

English? Sure...

And Kenobi did the same thing to her...

When tf has Kenobi ever tried to choke anyone???...

What situation has Kenobi been in where he would need to choke Ventress?

He's not a sith, dude.

I'm not saying he has to choke her out you fool. Just utterly dominate her with the force like Dooku did. It's a much more comprehensive way of defeating someone rather than just disarming them of one Saber (which is far from impressive since Koon did it with one arm)

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
It's not like Kenobi was winning that fight. Have you even seen it? Yes he was, wtf.

I saw Kenobi utterly owning them both, making Savage cry out like a little *****, and only when Maul decided to Force Blast his ass did they get the win.

Just stop.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Pissed off doesn't equal Bloodlusted.

Bloodlusted is when you want nothing more then to kill within that moment.

Anakin, Vos, and Windu were all Jedi who had Fury and Anger, though Mace was different then the others.

Btw, when Kenobi DID get "bloodlusted" against Maul at one point, he got stomped.

Yes it was a bad choice of wording but he really wanted to kill those two. It was no Soresu fend off bullshit. He wanted to slaughter them.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Yes he was, wtf.

I saw Kenobi utterly owning them both, making Savage cry out like a little *****, and only when Maul decided to Force Blast his ass did they get the win.

Just stop.

That was at the end yes and Savage did leave a massive opening which any Jedi should be able to exploit. Listen to Kenobi struggling throughout the entire fight and his facial expressions say it all, he's putting absolutely everything into each move and he's only contending.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I'm not saying he has to choke her out you fool. Just utterly dominate her with the force like Dooku did. It's a much more comprehensive way of defeating someone rather than just disarming them of one Saber (which is far from impressive since Koon did it with one arm) Kenobi isn't even close to Dooku in terms of Force Power, he's not known for his force abilities.

He can be impressive at times, but he's known for his skill with a blade.

Stop bringing up shit thats irrelevant and I won't call you out for it.

Do you have any arguments that put Dooku over Kenobi in all 10 rounds of sabers only?

If not, then please stop.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
That was at the end yes and Savage did leave a massive opening which any Jedi should be able to exploit. Listen to Kenobi struggling throughout the entire fight and his facial expressions say it all, he's putting absolutely everything into each move and he's only contending. Just like Sidious was struggling against Maul, you can see it on his face...

OH WAIT!...

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Yes it was a bad choice of wording but he really wanted to kill those two. It was no Soresu fend off bullshit. He wanted to slaughter them. Prove it.

Dooku has better feats? A counter for everything Obi-Wan has ever thrown at him? Knowledge of his Soresu and is an expert at combating against Ataru if Kenobi tries to attack. Dooku has shown endurance against both him and Anakin before so don't try and bring the Dooku is an old man bullshit. Plus Dooku has won every fight against him.
:/

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Prove it.
Umm maybe when Savage kills Gallia and Obi-Wan kicks him to the ground and tries to slice him? At the very start...

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Dooku has better feats? A counter for everything Obi-Wan has ever thrown at him? Knowledge of his Soresu and is an expert at combating against Ataru if Kenobi tries to attack. Dooku has shown endurance against both him and Anakin before so don't try and bring the Dooku is an old man bullshit. Plus Dooku has won every fight against him.
:/

Nope, wrong, he beat him once in a 1v1 in AOTC.

I don't think you realize the extent he's grown since then.

I do. He ragdolled him in ROTS...

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I do. He ragdolled him in ROTS... Kicking force pushes out of this conversation, and ragdolling because I do not care that he was ragdolled.

All I know is that Kenobi was fighting evenly with a LEGITIMATELY bloodlusted Anakin, who made Dooku look like a joke earlier in the movie, and that it was Sabers only.

I also remember Dooku struggling against AOTC Kenobi in both the movie AND the novel.

So you think this is going to be a sabers only battle no force will be used? Kenobi will just ask Dooku to not force push or choke him to death? Dooku will definitely start with the force against Obi-Wan given his track record and weak force wall against top tier force wielders. What's stopping Dooku from doing the same thing he's done many times before? Anakin didn't have a form advantage against Obi-Wan, but he did against Dooku. It's not like Anakin was light years ahead of Dooku in terms of skill either...

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
So you think this is going to be a sabers only battle no force will be used? Kenobi will just ask Dooku to not force push or choke him to death? Dooku will definitely start with the force against Obi-Wan given his track record and weak force wall against top tier force wielders. What's stopping Dooku from doing the same thing he's done many times before? Anakin didn't have a form advantage against Obi-Wan, but he did against Dooku. It's not like Anakin was light years ahead of Dooku in terms of skill either... The AOTC battle between them had saber against saber, no force powers.

What we're arguing in this thread is sabers only, did you read the OP?

Oh shit. I didn't see sabers only. Shit ****

Nonetheless, Dooku wins a massive majority. Makashi counters Soresu perfectly and he's dismantled a superior Ataru master in Qui-Gon Jinn before

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Dooku has never stomped Kenobi :/

Even in AOTC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_8DUsl1Ea4

Originally posted by Emperordmb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_8DUsl1Ea4 You've never read the novel where it says that Dooku is getting pushed back?

Or seen the part where Dooku nearly gets cut in half?

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Nonetheless, Dooku wins a massive majority. Makashi counters Soresu perfectly and he's dismantled a superior Ataru master in Qui-Gon Jinn before He takes a majority, but not a massive majority.

Team 2 in a good fight if its Dooku vs Luke and Arcann vs Obi Wan. Team 2 in a not so good fight if it's vice versa.

Obi-Wan can make Dooku work for it, but yes, Dooku does beat Obi-Wan every time in sabers. He's on another level in terms of sheer skill (per Nick Gillard's rankings), and his Makashi form is ideal for fighting Soresu. That, and Obi-Wan's Ataru isn't particularly effective against somebody who knows the form inside-out.

Luke beats Arcann, though.

bb.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Obi-Wan can make Dooku work for it, but yes, Dooku does beat Obi-Wan every time in sabers. He's on another level in terms of sheer skill (per Nick Gillard's rankings), and his Makashi form is ideal for fighting Soresu. That, and Obi-Wan's Ataru isn't particularly effective against somebody who knows the form inside-out.

Luke beats Arcann, though. Dooku was being pushed by Kenobi in AOTC.

Kenobi had improved Tremendously within that time.

Whereas with Dooku, we don't see a big difference in saber skill.

Stop with that bullshit Jman. Dooku never struggled in AOTC with Kenobi. Dooku improved as well ****tard...

Wait, lightsabers only? Yeah, Luke and Kenobi take this.

I wonder if Jman realizes that Dooku was toying with him through that initial fight and was actually kinda dissapointed by Obi's skill? mmm

Neph is mine.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Stop with that bullshit Jman. Dooku never struggled in AOTC with Kenobi. Dooku improved as well ****tard... It says that Dooku "fought furiously" to keep Kenobi's blade at bay or some shit.

He isn't didn't improve nearly as much as Obi-Wan did.

Also, nice band-wagon jumping you did there.

Team 2

Originally posted by MythLord
I wonder if Jman realizes that Dooku was toying with him through that initial fight and was actually kinda dissapointed by Obi's skill? mmm You mean when he said "Surely, you can do better"?...

I'm pretty sure he was saying that to piss Kenobi off, but whatever

Per Gillard's rankings, Obi-Wan's a level 8, and Dooku a level 9. It's a "huge jump" from one level to the next, as Gillard claims. And unlike Anakin, Dooku doesn't have the restriction of "not being beyond Obi-Wan mentally". That he literally knows Obi-Wan's offensive form inside-out makes it incredibly hard for Obi-Wan to actually win. His Soresu will be a pest and a pain to get through, but no more.

Obi-Wan has no victory conditions that he can fulfill against the Count in terms of saber combat.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
It says that Dooku "fought furiously" to keep Kenobi's blade at bay or some shit.

He isn't didn't improve nearly as much as Obi-Wan did.

Also, nice band-wagon jumping you did there.

It also says that when he fought Yoda he was fighting on another level to what he was against Kenobi and Skywalker. Dooku clearly wasn't going all out against Kenobi and has repeatedly humiliated him since.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It also says that when he fought Yoda he was fighting on another level to what he was against Kenobi and Skywalker. Dooku clearly wasn't going all out against Kenobi and has repeatedly humiliated him since. Repeatedly humiliated him, in a team with Anakin...


...using TK to aid him.

Well of course he was, but I'm saying Kenobi has probably improved to the point that he was close to that level at least, possibly on that level.

I like how you're using Obi-Wan having an ally as a reason for Dooku beating him.

Dooku displays superiority without TK several times. Like the RotS duel where he drags Obi-Wans saber around freely to block Anakin at the same time.

He isn't. Kenobi would get crushed by Yoda.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Kenobi isn't good in confined spaces either, Soresu is a defensive style, which wouldn't work well in a confined space.



WRONG.

As per Canon, Soresu is designed for tight quarter combat.


And if we say he was using Ataru (I personally think he was combining both) he still had more room to manoeuvre than Maul and Savage who were both much larger than Kenobi at the time.

And LMAO if you think Maul doesn't use acrobatics in combat.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He's on another level in terms of sheer skill (per Nick Gillard's rankings).

lmao

Other sources make it even worse for Obi-Wan, lmfao.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You mean when he said "Surely, you can do better"?...

I'm pretty sure he was saying that to piss Kenobi off, but whatever

I'm referring to Dooku suddenly moving faster than Obi-Wan can percieve when he actually starts going all-out.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Other sources make it even worse for Obi-Wan, lmfao.

You mean how Dooku shat his pants twice in RotS from Kenobi?

I was talking about supplementary OOU sources.

But if we're using renditions of the film, in the comic, Dooku kicks Obi-Wan unconscious very shortly after the fight begins.

Nothing to do with skill.

No, it has to do with the elasticity of his leg, yeah.

Kenobi was tagged by kicks and punches by far inferior opponents, so I guess you could say Dooku is at least as skilled as Ventress. Good for you.

Apart from TCW, which is just plain inconsistent, Obi-Wan isn't regularly hit by kicks and punches, and certainly not any that knock him out immediately.

The notion that it had nothing to do with skill is pretty laughable. Clearly, the comic is portraying Obi-Wan as the weakest of the three.

And despite your "lmao", Nick Gillard's rankings would suggest that Dooku is still on another level to Obi-Wan as a swordsman.

That seems like a petty distinction. Kenobi getting tagged by those attacks is still exemplary of his combat skill and of his inferiority to Dooku.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And despite your "lmao", Nick Gillard's rankings would suggest that Dooku is still on another level to Obi-Wan as a swordsman.

No. Gillard's ranking never mentions Dooku. So you try to use other sources to shoehorn Dooku into it, but ignore other sources that places Kenobi close to Mace/Dooku.

Yeah, Obi-Wan rolled with the flow when he was hit there and proceeded to win the duel. On the other hand, Dooku's kick was more of a half-baked dismissal whilst he was still fighting Anakin (he wasn't even facing Obi-Wan), and it knocked Obi-Wan out cold. Totally comparable examples.

As for your second point, that happened when Dooku was caught off guard. Obi-Wan's never come close when actually fighting Dooku.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
No. Gillard's ranking never mentions Dooku. So you try to use other sources to shoehorn Dooku into it, but ignore other sources that places Kenobi close to Mace/Dooku.

I know he doesn't explicitly mention Dooku. However, Anakin's clearly never depicting as actually outskilling Dooku, just being far stronger in the Force. And sources depict Dooku being close to Yoda, too, as far skill goes.

"Close" is a relative term. I already admitted that Obi-Wan can make Dooku work for it, but he's just not equipped to defeat the Count and will eventually go down, however much trouble he gives Tyranus. I know Obi-Wan's comparable the Count, and I have them fairly close. I'm not trying to overstate the difference between the two - I'm just trying to make sure it's noticed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, Obi-Wan rolled with the flow when he was hit there and proceeded to win the duel. On the other hand, Dooku's kick was more of a half-baked dismissal whilst he was still fighting Anakin (he wasn't even facing Obi-Wan), and it knocked Obi-Wan out cold. Totally comparable examples.

Yes they are, because we are talking about skill. It doesn't matter that Kenobi was knocked out, because that's not relative to the skill, but the force of the kick.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As for your second point, that happened when Dooku was caught off guard. Obi-Wan's never come close when actually fighting Dooku.

Yeah no, he was aware that the jedi were there.



Originally posted by SunRazer
I know he doesn't explicitly mention Dooku. However, Anakin's clearly never depicting as actually outskilling Dooku, just being far stronger in the Force. And sources depict Dooku being close to Yoda, too, as far skill goes.

And Dooku wasn't depicted as being more skilled than Kenobi in RotS either, just more powerful in the force. I accept your concession.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know Obi-Wan's comparable the Count, and I have them fairly close. I'm not trying to overstate the difference between the two - I'm just trying to make sure it's noticed.

Are you now? Doesn't seem like that to me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Per Gillard's rankings, Obi-Wan's a level 8, and Dooku a level 9. It's a "huge jump" from one level to the next, as Gillard claims.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He's on another level in terms of sheer skill.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yes they are, because we are talking about skill. It doesn't matter that Kenobi was knocked out, because that's not relative to the skill, but the force of the kick.

Then I guess we can talk about how the Count was fighting Anakin at the time and wasn't even looking at Obi-Wan? Obi-Wan literally charges up the stairs, and Dooku, not even turning, just throws out a kick that floors him.

And it could be just as much that he struck a vital part of the body as the force of the kick.



He obviously wasn't in a good condition to be blocking it. As I said, Obi-Wan's never managed anything close in actual combat against the Count.



According to just a snippet in the novel where they fight inconclusively for a few seconds?

The comic has it another way.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Are you now? Doesn't seem like that to me.

Yeah, that's not overstating. That's fact, lol.

Overstating would be suggesting that the Count wins easily or that he stomps, which I'm not saying. In spite of the Count being on another level in terms of sheer skill, Obi-Wan's Soresu makes it a close and long-lasting fight. Not sure what else you want. Prove that Obi-Wan can win a round, and I'll listen.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, that's not overstating. That's fact, lol.

It's not a fact because Gillard never put Dooku on tier 9

Also once you say they are close/comparable then you say there's a a huge gap. Make up your mind already.

He puts people in tier 9 who Dooku is an equal to, yeah.

And I'm quoting Gillard with the "huge jump", lol. He defines it as the difference between TPM & RotS Kenobi.

Still, Soresu's defensive properties are pretty much the main reason that Obi-Wan would hold out so long. Dooku kind of has the form advantage otherwise.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He puts people in tier 9 who Dooku is an equal to, yeah.

Dooku is equal to tier 9s by other sources. By other sources Mace puts Kenobi on his own tier, Dooku shits his pants from Kenobi, and Yoda thinks Kenobi can beat tier 9s.

Dooku beats Kenobi in a Sabers only fight. But if Kenobi's fighting at peak efficiency (like he did against Maul/Savage, ROTS Grievous and Anakin), then he will go down after a hard fight.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Dooku is equal to tier 9s by other sources. By other sources Mace puts Kenobi on his own tier, Dooku shat his pants from Kenobi, and Yoda thinks Kenobi can beat tier 9s.

Nah, Gillard's claims would have to align with the RotS script/vision overall. And what's wrong with combining other sources' take on things with Gillard's vision? Mace obviously also fits in tier 9, and Dooku's holistically and skilfully depicted as an equal to him too. Do any objective sources imply that Obi-Wan would be tier 9?

Dooku wasn't shitting any pants. He realized that two things: one, that he had underestimated his opponents and been fooled by their form bullshitting, and two, that he didn't have enough time to break through Obi-Wan's defenses and fight Anakin at the same time. Anakin did all the heavy lifting in that fight - Obi-Wan just drew Dooku away for a while by making him strike uselessly at him. Dooku being driven back, tired etc. was all because of Anakin.

If you're referring to Yoda thinking Obi-Wan can beat Anakin - that's circumstantial, obviously. Anakin's the better swordsman, just worse mentally, and both of them know each other inside-out so well that the skill gap is more or less nullified, so that leaves Obi-Wan with the mental edge. I think that's how Gillard described the fight, too.

Mace puts Obi-Wan in his own tier? When?

If we're playing the "what other people think of me" game, Yoda puts Dooku as >= Mace/Anakin, Thame Cerulian puts Dooku > all, and Obi-Wan thinks Dooku is a perfect swordsman, so checkmate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah, Gillard's claims would have to align with the RotS script/vision overall. And what's wrong with combining other sources' take on things with Gillard's vision? Mace obviously also fits in tier 9, and Dooku's holistically and skilfully depicted as an equal to him too. Do any objective sources imply that Obi-Wan would be tier 9?

Yes, and I listed them

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku wasn't shitting any pants. He realized that two things: one, that he had underestimated his opponents and been fooled by their form bullshitting, and two, that he didn't have enough time to break through Obi-Wan's defenses and fight Anakin at the same time. Anakin did all the heavy lifting in that fight - Obi-Wan just drew Dooku away for a while by making him strike uselessly at him. Dooku being driven back, tired etc. was all because of Anakin.

Right, that's why Dooku didn't even dare to strike at Kenobi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If you're referring to Yoda thinking Obi-Wan can beat Anakin - that's circumstantial, obviously. Anakin's the better swordsman, just worse mentally, and both of them know each other inside-out so well that the skill gap is more or less nullified, so that leaves Obi-Wan with the mental edge. I think that's how Gillard described the fight, too.

The point is if RotS Kenobi is as far below Anakin as TPM Kenobi to RotS Kenobi, then no circumstance would save his ass.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Mace puts Obi-Wan in his own tier? When?

In the RotS novel.

Originally posted by SunRazer
If we're playing the "what other people think of me" game, Yoda puts Dooku as >= Mace/Anakin, Thame Cerulian puts Dooku > all, and Obi-Wan thinks Dooku is a perfect swordsman, so checkmate.

Yoda doesn't put Dooku above Mace.

Lmao Thame wasn't even alive when Kenobi was born.

So?

Lol. Dooku > Kenobi.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Lol. Dooku > Kenobi.

Lol. Never said otherwise.

Kenobi vs Dooku goes on for 6 pages instead of all the fights that can be analyzed/debated here

disgraceful.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan


The point is if RotS Kenobi is as far below Anakin as TPM Kenobi to RotS Kenobi, then no circumstance would save his ass.




Really? Because TPM Kenobi already did defeat a far superior opponent due to circumstance.

And there were many more circumstances involved with the Skywalker vs Kenobi fight, ones which have already been listed by sunrazer

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
disgraceful. Who do you think would win if Arcann faced Kenobi and Dooku faced Luke? (Still sabers only)

Dooku and Arcann would take both still.

Honestly team 1 should take this in either matchup.

Arcann wouldn't be able to beat Vader in a duel.

Team 1 wins,

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Really? Because TPM Kenobi already did defeat a far superior opponent due to circumstance.

And there were many more circumstances involved with the Skywalker vs Kenobi fight, ones which have already been listed by sunrazer

>TPM Maul
>Far superior to RotS Anakin

lmao

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku and Arcann would take both still. Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Honestly team 1 should take this in either matchup. Reasons? Originally posted by carthage
Arcann wouldn't be able to beat Vader in a duel.

Team 1 wins, Is that a fair comparison?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
>TPM Maul
>Far superior to RotS Anakin

lmao


Superior to TPM Kenobi you dolt


Originally posted by Sinious
Is that a fair comparison?


No. Not at all. Given Arcann isn't Vader's son and isn't going to lash out with Chosen One level Rage Amp.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No. Not at all. Given Arcann isn't Vader's son and isn't going to lash out with Chosen One level Rage Amp. Indeed.

Speaking of which I wonder who has more f'ed up daddy issues: Arcann or Luke?

Edit: The answer is probably Anakin.

Originally posted by Sinious
Indeed.

Speaking of which I wonder who has more f'ed up daddy issues: Arcann or Luke?

Edit: The answer is probably Anakin.

Luke's way worse, but he handles it significantly better than Arcann who is just a pussy.

Tbh, being Vitikorion's son has the potential to be something far worse.

Nah, Senya said the worst thing Valkorion did was being distant. Arcann just wants his dick sucked 24/7.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yes, and I listed them

None of those are objective sources.



Oh my god, Dooku's doesn't want to strike after he's surprised by how the Jedi had just revealed their true forms and has just leapt away from Skywalker. He's lost the fight! Call Carthage for some salt spray!

Your out-of-context excerpt doesn't contradict anything I said. If we won't consider context, then Dooku strikes Obi-Wan with a wheel-kick on the next page.

And anyway, it's only one portrayal of the fight. There's others where Dooku casually knocks Obi-Wan out whilst fighting Anakin and not even bothering to turn Obi-Wan's way.



Nah, the extent to which the two of them knew each other's forms would've virtually nullified the skill edge. It's not even a matter of skill anymore - it's a matter of memory. It's a bit like Sora Bulq vs Mace Windu.



Can you give me a specific quote?



I said he puts Dooku >= Mace, which he clearly does in Dark Rendezvous when he says that on neutral ground, Mace would "perhaps be his equal".



You wilted mushroom. Thame putting Dooku > all means he puts Dooku > Yoda, which is infinitely better than being above Kenobi, lol.



So Obi-Wan's not going to win a battle of false, subjective hype from various characters.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Superior to TPM Kenobi you dolt





No. Not at all. Given Arcann isn't Vader's son and isn't going to lash out with Chosen One level Rage Amp.

He doesn't need an amp to beat Arcann, he was already Vader's equal with hardly any training due to his inherent potential. Arcann maxes out at best Kenobi level, when Luke is on par with the greatest Jedi killer/someone canonically superior to Dooku/Maul per Palpatine's word.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nah, Senya said the worst thing Valkorion did was being distant. Arcann just wants his dick sucked 24/7. I said it has the potential, which is true.

@Nova I started to write up a response, but **** it. If 1 tier according to Gillard is from TPM Kenobi to RotS Kenobi, then he clearly talking about overall combative effectiveness with the saber, not just skill.

Mace's skill is definitely not that far beyond Kenobi's, and by approximation neither is Anakin's, Yoda's, or Sidious'.

On the other hand, Invisible Hand / Knightfall Anakin, Vaapad'd Mace, Yoda and Sidious are way beyond RotS Kenobi as a fighter.

So no Dooku isn't tier 9, he's sitting at tier 8, just like Kenobi

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
@Nova I started to write up a response, but **** it. If 1 tier according to Gillard is from TPM Kenobi to RotS Kenobi, then he clearly talking about overall combative effectiveness with the saber, not just skill.

He's talking about combative mentality and other things, not offensive Force powers.



Just curious, but what are you basing this on (for Mace)?



The Official Fact File #34 has Dooku and Yoda as almost equal, so no, he's not tier 8. Tier 9 is accurate, just as he's an equal for Mace (tier 9) and RotS Anakin (also tier 9).

Originally posted by SunRazer
You wilted mushroom. LMFAO that's the best insult ever written on KMC

^ To the argument above, Dooku's probably like a tier 8.5 or something. I doubt it's coincidence that Gillard never named Dooku's tier, because he's likely in between tiers.

Remember Gillard said there's a HUGE difference between a Tier 8 and 9. So there's loads of room to fit in between.


Originally posted by carthage
he was already Vader's equal with hardly any training due to his inherent potential.

He was Vader's equal in Legends. But then in Legends his training was said to be complete. Even then, some Legend sources have implied Vader still could have owned Luke with TK, so they were possibly only equal in Sabers.

In Canon however, Lucas and Filoni seem to think ROTJ Luke is only partly trained and no match for Vader. As for inherent potential, Luke's is not higher than Anakin's, and Vader > Anakin (in Canon), so that wouldn't be enough to make a part trained Luke his equal tbh.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
LMFAO that's the best insult ever written on KMC

Speed and strength isn't implied at all. He's talking about skill, it's just that skill refers to a lot of things - technical, mental etc. and he's talking about all of it.



Thought it'd be this. Mace is talking about how good Obi-Wan would be against Grievous. He thinks nobody would be better-suited to defeating Grievous.

For the first part, fair enough, but we've already established that Dooku has better hype from characters. As for your last phrase, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.



Dooku was getting curbed by Anakin due to power, not skill. He holds his own against Yoda as well, especially skill-wise, and Sidious curbs the others through physicals and Force power, not skill. Try to get some relevant examples.

Nah you're wrong. Gillard speaks of a swordmaster as a whole, not just skill:

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various Star Wars swordsmen: "In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine . On this film Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young the dark side is just too tempting."

You don't get more skilled when falling to the dark side, only more powerful

Dooku is still not a 9.

Zoltan's right there. Gillard was referring to overall sword fighting Ability. And not just a particular aspect of sword fighting like skill.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dooku beats Kenobi in a Sabers only fight. But if Kenobi's fighting at peak efficiency (like he did against Maul/Savage, ROTS Grievous and Anakin), then he will go down after a hard fight. I have Kenobi as Dooku's equal because of powerscaling, and nothing else. If that makes it any better.

Emotionally ****ed up Anakin = Dooku, for me.

Obi-Wan = Emotionally ****ed up Anakin, as he didn't show his superiority in that particular fight, if there was one.

Yeah, Anakin is better in H2H (but comparable), yes, he would destroy him in the force, but, Obi-Wan was contending EVENLY the ENTIRE fight with Anakin.

And in case you were wondering, this is the point in which Obi-Wan almost kills Dooku: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYw5KWTe15I&t=1m30s

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Nah you're wrong. Gillard speaks of a swordmaster as a whole, not just skill:

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various Star Wars swordsmen: "In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine . On this film Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young the dark side is just too tempting."

You don't get more skilled when falling to the dark side, only more powerful

Dooku is still not a 9.

It's not as if other aspects are also enhanced immediately just by converting to the dark side.

But it doesn't matter. Dooku's not an entire tier below Mace. And whilst there was a huge toll on his stamina, Dooku was still matching up to Anakin quite well. Dooku's a nine.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
And in case you were wondering, this is the point in which Obi-Wan almost kills Dooku: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYw5KWTe15I&t=1m30s


Really don't see Dooku in any danger there.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Really don't see Dooku in any danger there. You don't see the saber RAPIDLY approaching Dooku's side, which Dooku only barely manages to block???

When will you come to your senses Jman *facepalm*

LMFAO. Rapidly coming to his side, as he barely manages to block... yet he smiles right after blocking it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not as if other aspects are also enhanced immediately just by converting to the dark side.

But it doesn't matter. Dooku's not an entire tier below Mace. And whilst there was a huge toll on his stamina, Dooku was still matching up to Anakin quite well. Dooku's a nine.

Lel. You are obviously can't stop gagging on dooku's dick so I'm done here.

And you're obviously unable to stop swallowing Obi-Wan's cum

I don't know what you're trying to get out of me. I already admitted that it's a close fight, which it is. There's nothing else to be said. Dooku wins.

Originally posted by MythLord
LMFAO. Rapidly coming to his side, as he barely manages to block... yet he smiles right after blocking it. Because thats how his personality is, he's cocky. He was mocking Kenobi for the entire fight, despite being pushed back, and almost chopped in half.

He smiles when fighting ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan as well.

We also don't see his face RIGHT after he blocks it, we see a few seconds later.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
When will you come to your senses Jman *facepalm* Jump off the bandwagon already, no ones impressed.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
You don't see the saber RAPIDLY approaching Dooku's side, which Dooku only barely manages to block???


Nope. I just see a strike and a block. Not sure where you're getting that Dooku "barely" blocked it. You could say that about any block.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Because thats how his personality is, he's cocky. He was mocking Kenobi for the entire fight, despite being pushed back, and almost chopped in half.

He smiles when fighting ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan as well.

We also don't see his face RIGHT after he blocks it, we see a few seconds later.

The fact is, a few seconds later he's casually blocking Obi-Wan's strikes and laughing at him... Why would him spinning and parrying Obi-Wan's blow, where Obi seems to be grunting, imply he's having trouble?

We literally don't know... All we see is Kenobi attacking and Dooku parrying. Your literally trying to force your conjecture-based head-canon as fact, lmfao. Can you get any more desperate and idiotic? Just leave the forum already and give us peace.

Also... Dooku was shitting himself in RotS by the time Anakin went all-out. He only smiled when he and Obi fooled him into a false sense of security and when he used Dun Moch against Anakin.

Let's also not forget Dooku was disappointed by Kenobi's lack of skill, so clearly Kenobi at the time wasn't coming close to the Count.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And you're obviously unable to stop swallowing Obi-Wan's cum

I don't know what you're trying to get out of me. I already admitted that it's a close fight, which it is. There's nothing else to be said. Dooku wins.

Nah, by saying Dooku is tier 9 would mean he stomps Kenobi. You either overrate Dooku or have no idea about Gilllard's tier system.

It doesn't mean Dooku would stomp at all. Do you think Mace would stomp Obi-Wan?

Originally posted by SunRazer
It doesn't mean Dooku would stomp at all. Do you think Mace would stomp Obi-Wan?

Mace as of his fight with Sidious would, Anakin as of his fight on the Invisible Hand / Knightfall would, Yoda would, Sidious would. Those are tier 9. Dooku isn't, but we've been over this and you flat out ignored it.

So Yoda and Sheev are the only ones without amps that are tier 9?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Mace as of his fight with Sidious would, Anakin as of his fight on the Invisible Hand / Knightfall would, Yoda would, Sidious would. Those are tier 9. Dooku isn't, but we've been over this and you flat out ignored it.

Mace as of his fight with Sidious? We're not factoring in external amps here.

Do you put Maul as tier 8 as well?

You really have no idea about Gilllard's tier system then, got it.

Yes Maul is 8. Do you think he outclasses Kenobi too?

FFS screw Gillard's tiering system.