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Force
Sabers
All out

Team 1.
Stalemate.
Team 1.

Which Exar Kun the TOTJ version or the Ancientpower composite that can oneshot the Daughter?

A redundant question Carthage, both incarnations are the same thing. smartass

Team 1 in all but sabers, where anyone can win.

Originally posted by carthage
Which Exar Kun the TOTJ version or the Ancientpower composite that can oneshot the Daughter?
Originally posted by AncientPower
A redundant question Carthage, both incarnations are the same thing. smartass
Dear Lord...

If he's going to strawman, I at least deserve to play along.

Yeah I knew that was a joke, just couldn't resist letting my inner Ones of Mortis wank seep through.

The fact that Daughter was matching Son, who in alt-CW could give Anakin a fraction of his power, which was sufficient enough to pwn Sidious and Yoda in a 1 vs 2, is pretty ****ing insane tbh.

I also like to scale off of Taalon, who as a mortal who was only partially transformed by one of those sources was already doing stuff beyond GM Luke, whereas the Son and Daughter are both immortal ascended beings made of pure Force energy beyond the understanding of mortals who have on top of this completed transformations/power ups from such sources of power.

Team 1

Team 2 wins sabers, team 1 wins Force. All-out depends on how Kun uses his powers. But it's probably in favor of team 2.

Honestly, Ulic could 50/50 either of team 2 be it Force or Sabers, Kun is MVP.

Dooku solos

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Dooku solos

mmm

Kun > Dooku. Unsure about Windu, but Kun could prolly beat him for the majority.

On the other hand, Dooku and Windu > Ulic.

All-out, probably Team 2, Ulic is the weak link. Sabers, it's hard to tell but I think Team 2 edges it out. Force, I'm not sure. This is a very good match-up.

Ulic isn't that behind Dooku and Mace tbh :/
He isn't hindering Exar's chance of victory too much

Ulic is a weak link slightly, Team 2

Ulic as a mere Jedi Knight, hindered by a dark side nexus and Null's suppressive wall, was a master of the Force who could speedblitz Warb Null and his five Krath warrior escort. Warb Null was an 'excellent swordsman', 'master of the dark side', with the memory imprints of King Adas and Freedon Nadd, which afforded him reflexes in combat almost faster than his ability to think, and a degree of dual phase mastery. Nadd and Ommin both agree that Warb Null stands no chance against Ulic.

Then Ulic gained 'immense powers' as a 'warrior magus' over the following years where he mastered the dark side and became one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the mythos.

Mace Windu comparatively required all his skills to defeat an early OCW Ventress who tagged him in combat, and got completely overwhelmed by Kar Vastor.

Not seeing where Ulic is a weaklink by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ulic as a mere Jedi Knight, hindered by a dark side nexus and Null's suppressive wall, was a master of the Force who could speedblitz Warb Null and his five Krath warrior escort. Warb Null was an 'excellent swordsman', 'master of the dark side', with the memory imprints of King Adas and Freedon Nadd, which afforded him reflexes in combat almost faster than his ability to think, and a degree of dual phase mastery. Nadd and Ommin both agree that Warb Null stands no chance against Ulic.

Then Ulic gained 'immense powers' as a 'warrior magus' over the following years where he mastered the dark side and became one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the mythos.

Mace Windu comparatively required all his skills to defeat an early OCW Ventress who tagged him in combat, and got completely overwhelmed by Kar Vastor.

Not seeing where Ulic is a weaklink by any stretch of the imagination. To add to this, when Exar and Ulic were fighting to decide who became Dark Lord, Ulic was fighting evenly with Kun. So Ulic is easily on Kun's level as a duelist, and is at least comparable in the Force.

Not easily on par with Kun but yeah, that's still only single bladed Kun.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The fact that Daughter was matching Son, who in alt-CW could give Anakin a fraction of his power, which was sufficient enough to pwn Sidious and Yoda in a 1 vs 2, is pretty ****ing insane tbh. I thought that he was unlocking Anakin's FULL power. Not giving some of it to him.

Bump

Team 2 easily

1. Team one
2. Split or slight edge to team one
3. Team one

None of these fights will be easy, but I think that Exar and Ulic are superior in the areas that count.

Originally posted by JKBart
Team 2 easily

Team 2.

Team 1.

Team 2 for sabers, Team 1 for Force, all-out... depends on how Team 1 abuses the Force. But maybe Team 2.

Exar vs Mace would be a pretty decent fight tbh.

1. Team 1
2. Team 2
3. it would be close, but i'd give the edge to team 1.

Probably the PT team. Exar is clearly the most powerful here, but he is obsessed with besting people in lightsaber combat, and he won't win in that realm against these swordsmen.

Team 1.

Kun solos

Team 1

Team 1 stomps

This fight is no where near a stomp, what the hell? Kun couldn't stomp Baas, he isn't stomping guys who are head and shoulders above Baas.

Originally posted by Trocity
This fight is no where near a stomp, what the hell? Kun couldn't stomp Baas, he isn't stomping guys who are head and shoulders above Baas. while I agree that this isn't a stomp, once Kun got serious, he beat Baas rather easily. I also recall him doing something similar to Baas before he was even in his prime.

Btw, nice sig and Avi.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Kun solos

How does Kun solo?
What feats does he have to suggest that he can even beat Dooku alone, let alone both Dooku and Windu?

Originally posted by darthbane77
Kun solos

Originally posted by darthbane77
Kun solos

mace is the best, and ulic is the worst, team 1 takes it

Team 2

Team one with Exar as the MVP

the mvp is the one who can compete with sids yea

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Team one with Exar as the MVP

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
the mvp is the one who can compete with sids yea

So, none of the combatants involved.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
So, none of the combatants involved. no, the one explicitly stated to be able to compete with sids

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
no, the one explicitly stated to be able to compete with sids

Yeah, the one who has a statement that is contradicted by the movie itself and several other sources.

No, Mace can't compete with Sidious.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Yeah, the one who has a statement that is contradicted by the movie itself and several other sources.

No, Mace can't compete with Sidious.
Absolutely no source indicates mace can't compete with sids. The only thing that suggests otherwise would be a literal interpretation of a quote that blatantly contradicts multiple primary sources

yeah except the fact that multiple sources has dooku = mace lol

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
yeah except the fact that multiple sources has dooku = mace lol
Not rots mace who as an eight bordering nine is above the plain 8 known as dooku

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
yeah except the fact that multiple sources has dooku = mace lol
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
yeah except the fact that multiple sources has dooku = mace lol
Not rots mace who as an eight bordering nine is above the plain 8 known as dooku

Fck double post

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Absolutely no source indicates mace can't compete with sids. The only thing that suggests otherwise would be a literal interpretation of a quote that blatantly contradicts multiple primary sources

The movie shows Sidious holding Mace at saberpoint seconds into the fight. Sidious has his blade pointed at Mace's chest, Mace can't parry the stab. Sidious has won this. Sidious, however, let Mace parry which makes obvious that Sidious could have killed Mace within seconds- this is movie only. If you can compete with someone that fight needs to last more than a minute. That's competition. Being at your opponent's mercy within seconds is not competition.

And it has been stated Mace could not even react to Sidious. Mace only parried three blows due to randomly putting his saber in front of his body and having Fisto's help. Mace can, at best, parry two blows from Sidious.

And even amped Mace could have been finished off by Sidious with Lightning. Which makes it obvious that Sidious could have instantly fried Mace had he felt like it.

Mace Windu cannot compete with Darth Sidious. George Lucas' word is overridden by the movie itself, and the movie itself disagrees with Lucas.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not rots mace who as an eight bordering nine is above the plain 8 known as dooku
according to yodas opinion by yoda dr which is almost rots, also proof for dooku being 8? and dooku beating grievous, ventress and sora bulq far easier than mace did kek

Mace is held at saber point after more than a few seconds sith master. And yes, sids can win, which was never disputed anywhere, that doesn't change that mace can compete, not to mention I see no reason to think the vapaad boost was a one time thing given that we've seen mace retain his "inner darkness" earlier in the novel and Mace's boost resulted from fully using vapaad, something which I see no reason to think he wouldn't do afterwards given he no longer is afraid of the dark.

Regardless, vapaad and mace throwing the fight only explain why mace can match sids, not why he can compete which he certainly can given the word of god

sidious casually force choked dooku across galaxy, kek he could kill mace with tk if he wanted to

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace is held at saber point after more than a few seconds sith master. And yes, sids can win, which was never disputed anywhere, that doesn't change that mace can compete, not to mention I see no reason to think the vapaad boost was a one time thing given that we've seen mace retain his "inner darkness" earlier in the novel and Mace's boost resulted from fully using vapaad, something which I see no reason to think he wouldn't do afterwards given he no longer is afraid of the dark.

Regardless, vapaad and mace throwing the fight only explain why mace can match sids, not why he can compete which he certainly can given the word of god

Just timed. It was fifteen seconds. Being at your opponent's mercy in fifteen seconds is not competing. "Word of god" does not override the movie. The movie is the highest source of canon, and if the creator of the movie contradicts the movie itself (which was created along with other people) then the movie is more important. The movie contradicts the notion that Mace can compete with Sidious, which is enough, and the other sources are just the cherry on top.

Well yes, if we assume that wasn't just bad cherography(dooku also missed two opportune moments to kill yoda if we eyeball yoda vs dooku jensaraai style) in that specific fight mace would have died a bit soon due to overextending himself a swing. Given Mace borders on Sids level as an 8 bordering nine and Lucas's statement, it's plausible in a second encounter mace doesn't make that mistake and that doesn't happen. Not to mention it's perfectly arguable bapaad hadn't kicked in, and I'll repeat we have no reason his ability to use it fully or his inner darkness would just go away.

Lucas's statement was general and not specific to this particular fight. Mace can compete with sids in general, how well may fluctuate and is up for debate but that he can compete isn't disputable.

Regardless my point was about what it says for mace's force abilities or at least his abilities to deal with and compete regardless of force abilities. He clearly can't just be one or two shotted by the most powerful sith in history which is rather impressive given sid's power. And if he can compete with sids in spite of his force abilities, what makes ppl think Kim or Ulic can stop a saber based victory with the force? As it is, it's in character for then to duel.

I think we all agree who wins in a duel

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Well yes, if we assume that wasn't just bad cherography(dooku also missed two opportune moments to kill yoda if we eyeball yoda vs dooku jensaraai style) in that specific fight mace would have died a bit soon due to overextending himself a swing. Given Mace borders on Sids level as an 8 bordering nine and Lucas's statement, it's plausible in a second encounter mace doesn't make that mistake and that doesn't happen. Not to mention it's perfectly arguable bapaad hadn't kicked in, and I'll repeat we have no reason his ability to use it fully or his inner darkness would just go away.

Lucas's statement was general and not specific to this particular fight. Mace can compete with sids in general, how well may fluctuate and is up for debate but that he can compete isn't disputable.

Regardless my point was about what it says for mace's force abilities or at least his abilities to deal with and compete regardless of force abilities. He clearly can't just be one or two shotted by the most powerful sith in history which is rather impressive given sid's power. And if he can compete with sids in spite of his force abilities, what makes ppl think Kim or Ulic can stop a saber based victory with the force? As it is, it's in character for then to duel.


I think we all agree who wins in a duel

Sorry, when did Dooku have the chance to kill Yoda? Only when Yoda was distracted lifting the crane. Not during the duel. Mace didn't just overextend, Sidious had the ability to kill Mace within fifteen seconds which absolutely debunks Lucas' statement about Mace competing with Sidious.

Mace is an eight, and thus he's at least solidly below Sidious who is a nine (solid tier difference is there as per Gillard). And Vaapad amp had not kicked in. Obviously amped Mace can compete with Sidious. Standard Mace (the Mace in this fight) cannot as per the movie+two or three other sources.

And Mace cannot compete with Sidious. The movie debunks it. The notion that unamped Mace can compete with Sidious is plainly wrong. The movie overrides Lucas. In sabers at least.

Given the movie debunks Lucas' statement, and what we see in the movie matters more than anything Lucas says, that statement cannot be applied- at least to sabers. And given it's been proven to be false, it cannot be used. Sidious could have killed an Amped Mace with Lightning. Normal Mace would have died even more quick, given Amped Mace was losing quick. And someone with feats equal to those of Windu (Dooku) and a duo with superior feats to Windu (Maul+Savage) have been Force one-shotted by Sidious. There is nothing that suggests Sidious can't one-shot Windu with the Force. Actually, the novel somewhat supports the notion Sidious can instantly end Windu with the Force.

Sidious>>>>Windu, and Mace cannot compete with him unless he is amped.

Eesh. ^

Do you want to counter it ant, or should I?

I was pretty sure I already made a post to SithMaster regarding Mace's near-parity with Sidious in the EU section. Did he respond and I miss it, or did he just ignore it?

I don't think the post was on this thread, anyhow I'd like your pov on how circumstantial the vapaad boost was

if mace is almost sidious then how did he not stomp grievous ventress or bulq lol

Because
A. He hadn't fully accepted his inner darkness yet
B. You can't use vapaad fully on a droid
C. He was pre-prime
D. IIRC Mace was stalling bill for some reason

Anyhow he doesn't have to be a near equal which I've never really argued

Vaapad is described as Mace containing an immense concentration of Force energy that's about to explode at-bay, and then through his mastery of the technique, using the energy to augment his abilities in ways that wouldn't be possible through standard means due to having so much more power readily available. That being said, the second element, the super-conducting loop, in which Mace was able to establish Palpatine's power as the subject of the loop and not his own, is perhaps by forming a Force bond or using a variant of Consume Essence. Mace can sustain this explosion of energy via the additional dark-side energy flowing into him from Palpatine and then back again into Palpatine (the drawback is the risk of losing control of the energy and being consumed by the dark-side, but with Mace's heightened mental state due to the situation of Palpatine being Sidious, that wasn't even a threat in ROTS). That's my interpretation of it, at least. Thus, then, without having Palpatine-level power to support the ball of energy he's keeping at bay, Mace wouldn't be able to maintain such a level of power (which is all his, by the way). However, I imagine Mace can replicate the power of any dark-side opponent he is fighting up to the level of Sidious. I'm not sure how the ability would work against two powerful opponents and another dark-side ally, such as here with Kun, Droma, and Dooku, but at the very least he should be able to get to at least Kun's level, but perhaps even much higher (again peaking at Sidious level).

vaapad was a shitshow i feel bad for stover or whoever the hell it was that wrote rots, tryna make sense of lucas' bs in the movies lol

I find the rest agreeable, but by energy about to explode, are you referring to Mace's increased "inner darkness"? I'd argue his inner darkness wouldn't just dissipate after the fight, rather it's something that stays with mace much in the same way the inner darkness from the outer rim sieges still remains when Kenobi meets mace in rots.

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
vaapad was a shitshow i feel bad for stover or whoever the hell it was that wrote rots, tryna make sense of lucas' bs in the movies lol



I completely agree.

Yea, thematically, having anakin take down mace would have made more sense than mace vs Sidious which was purely fan service tbh.

Not at all.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yea, thematically, having anakin take down mace would have made more sense than mace vs Sidious which was purely fan service tbh.

I would have enjoyed Anakin besting Mace in a fight, then the Vader wank would soar ever higher.

Originally posted by carthage
Ulic is a weak link slightly, Team 2

Yeah, this

Originally posted by Trocity
This fight is no where near a stomp, what the hell? Kun couldn't stomp Baas, he isn't stomping guys who are head and shoulders above Baas.

Kun toyed with Baas, and ended the battle the moment he was bored of it. The only person who remotely came close to contending with Kun in sabers is a bonafide prodigy and master duelist Ulic. The two of them are way above others in their era by a solid margin.

Comparatively, Dooku is probably the best technical duelist in the prequel era, and the only true practitioner of Makashi. Mace Windu's duelling expertise relies heavily on plot bias and how generous the media, meaning he could arguably stalemate Kun or Ulic, or be completely defeated by either after a pitched battle. IIRC, Shatterpoint even notes that Mace's signature style relies heavily on a weakness being both easy to spot and easy to exploit. Otherwise, he would have walked through everyone in that novel, Depa included.

If we're talking peak-Sith Lord Ulic and Kun, amped with dark side relics, I think the PT crew might be at a disadvantage though. We're talking about modifying rage, which for dark side combatants is like catnip. I don't see Mace making a perfect maelstrom of Plot ****ery to overcome that. I certainly don't see Dooku doing so, given that he lacks the ability with his style to indefinitely deflect rage hammering and neither Ulic or Kun would be ignorant of his style.