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Pre-FLASHPOINT versions.

On the Earth of an uninhabited duplicate solar system in a tesseract.

Supposedly WW is superior according to RIV. I hope we see him in here.

Pre-FP I'll give it to Orion, on average.

WW

Originally posted by h1a8
WW

Start reading comics before arguing them.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW

Pre Flashpoint? Probably Orion.

Originally posted by carver9
Originally posted by h1a8
WW

Originally posted by Delta1938
Start reading comics before arguing them.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So you created a bait thread and are losing it when anyone picks WW.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Start reading comics before arguing them.
No need to be a dick here, they're close enough. I'd probably give a slight edge to Orion on average, but only slight.

Orion PF

Wondy N52

So post crisis WW can move at a decent fraction of lightspeed while Orion is..not anywhere near as fast.

If you took away her speed advantage and just made this a pure h2h fight things might go differently. Also why couldn't she just toss Orion into space? Unless he is being giving that..space thingy he rides, he can't fly on his own.

Orion. Better gear, better fighter, stronger, and a more wide range of abilities thanks to the Mother Box.

Originally posted by Zack M
Orion. Better gear, better fighter, stronger, and a more wide range of abilities thanks to the Mother Box.

Couldn't she speed over, grab his mother box, and chuck him into space?

this is really close. think in a fight to the death i'd take ww for like 5.5/10. easy to see why people would choose orion though. surprised no one has posted a slew of fights against superman as a basis of comparison....

Prep... Post some Orion feats u lazy bum.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Orion PF

Wondy N52

Agree. In the comics.

Trying to imagine results where super speed must be used the entire time, for maximum effect, is tougher.
Orion has some speed of his own; his father Darkseid has occasionally been referred to as being very fast.
Obviously, Diana's way faster, but he may be fast enough to use some crazy Astro Force shenanigans before getting blitzed. And the same rules would apply to the AF as it would to super speed.

Orion tombstone pile drives her straight to hell

Orion

So why even bother using characters if we're going to ignore they have powers that would give them a victory? I don't even get it.

Originally posted by Surtur
So why even bother using characters if we're going to ignore they have powers that would give them a victory? I don't even get it. Nobody is ignoring anything

Originally posted by Cogito
No need to be a dick here, they're close enough. I'd probably give a slight edge to Orion on average, but only slight.

More and more, I'm honestly thinking H1 doesn't read comics. Carter? I shall never let him forget when he set himself up about not reading comics.

And I can't really see them as close. Closer than the gap between Superman and Wonder Woman? Sure. But that's not saying a ton.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG14.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG15.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG16.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG17.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG18.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/RelativeStrength/Teams/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG19.jpg


Originally posted by Surtur
So post crisis WW can move at a decent fraction of lightspeed while Orion is..not anywhere near as fast.

If you took away her speed advantage and just made this a pure h2h fight things might go differently. Also why couldn't she just toss Orion into space? Unless he is being giving that..space thingy he rides, he can't fly on his own.

Orion has super speed. He rarely uses it, but he has it. His fight with Darkseid(who also rarely uses his super speed) was at super speed.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/Darkseid/ORION5

How fast is Darkseid? Well, one of the rare times he's used it, he moved so fast that Byrne era Superman didn't even see him move.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Villains/Darkseid/Miscellaneous/th_SUPERMAN_V2_3-PG08.jpg

WW has skill, fighting speed, lasso, bracers to deflect AF back at Orion. She wins the high majority.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW has skill, fighting speed, lasso, bracers to deflect AF back at Orion. She wins the high majority.

Orion has skill too. He's literally a war god. We've seen him specifically just know things because of his war god status. That fight with Darkseid? Yeah, Darkseid shows to be pretty skilled himself, and Darkseid is much stronger than Orion, yet Orion used skill to compensate. And Orion is definitely the stronger of the two.

I already showed Orion's speed. Even taking the "I'm faster than you" into account, with what it actually said, I don't see Wonder Woman being so fast she could move too quickly for Byrne era Superman to see. Which Darkseid did. And Orion fought him at super speed.

Orion's Mother Box and Astro-Force more than compensate for Wonder Woman's gear. No, it's Orion who wins the high majority.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW has skill, fighting speed, lasso, bracers to deflect AF back at Orion. She wins the high majority. You are in delta's head.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW has skill, fighting speed, lasso, bracers to deflect AF back at Orion. She wins the high majority.

Orion already beat WW.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Orion has skill too. He's literally a war god. We've seen him specifically just know things because of his war god status. That fight with Darkseid? Yeah, Darkseid shows to be pretty skilled himself, and Darkseid is much stronger than Orion, yet Orion used skill to compensate. And Orion is definitely the stronger of the two.

I already showed Orion's speed. Even taking the "I'm faster than you" into account, with what it actually said, I don't see Wonder Woman being so fast she could move too quickly for Byrne era Superman to see. Which Darkseid did. And Orion fought him at super speed.

Orion's Mother Box and Astro-Force more than compensate for Wonder Woman's gear. No, it's Orion who wins the high majority.

The Astro Force is useless, actually it's a disadvantage since it can be sent back to him.

WW is far more skilled than him.

WW lasso alone gives her the majority.

WW can move her limbs ftl. That's faster than Orion.

Originally posted by Zack M
Orion already beat WW. scans or issue number

Originally posted by h1a8
scans or issue number

Would you kindly post evidence yourself before demanding it from others? I don't recall seeing you post a single scan.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Would you kindly post evidence yourself before demanding it from others? I don't recall seeing you post a single scan.

I want to see how Orion beat WW.

The arguments I give are general and known by all. They don't need scans.
For example, WW can block the AF with her bracers and can send it back to him. WW can lasso him. WW can block multiple beams shot at her. Scans aren't needed. Now if I say something specific, like, WW has pressure pointed Superman before. Then if someone hasn't seen it then I should post scans of it since this is not general knowledge.

Originally posted by h1a8
I want to see how Orion beat WW.

The arguments I give are general and known by all. They don't need scans.
For example, WW can block the AF with her bracers and can send it back to him. WW can lasso him. WW can block multiple beams shot at her. Scans aren't needed. Now if I say something specific, like, WW has pressure pointed Superman before. Then if someone hasn't seen it then I should post scans of it since this is not general knowledge.

He can beat her by knocking her the **** out hand-to-hand or with Astro-Force.

Your fanfic is well known. Scans to back it up have been unseen.

Concessions accepted.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Orion PF

Wondy N52

This. Although I get it why people hate giving Diana the nod. It IS getting a bit old

Originally posted by Delta1938
He can beat her by knocking her the **** out hand-to-hand or with Astro-Force.

Your fanfic is well known. Scans to back it up have been unseen.

Concessions accepted. Somehow he hits her with the Astro Force although she has a near 100% blocking rate of energy beams?

Scans to back what up? That she can block energy beams? That she can use the lasso? That she has great MA skills? These are general things everyone here knows.

What's Orion's defense if WW uses her full speed consistently? Sure, Orion's fought Superman, but has he ever fought Superman when Superman used his speed consistently?

Unless there is evidence showing Orion being able to deal with that kind of speed edge, then I have trouble seeing him winning.

Originally posted by h1a8
Somehow he hits her with the Astro Force although she has a near 100% blocking rate of energy beams?

Scans to back what up? That she can block energy beams? That she can use the lasso? That she has great MA skills? These are general things everyone here knows.

She's not unhittable. I posted a bunch of examples in the Superman vs WW thread 'cuz you think she can't be hit(or damn near can never be).

To the level she beats him. He's an actual god of war and has used skill to compensate for beating Darkseid, despite Darkseid being much stronger than him and a skilled fighter himself. And Orion is stronger than her.

But I know how this will work. You'll disregard/ignore/mental gymnastic away all evidence shown to you and write-up your fanfic without backing your case. Or didn't notice these?

Originally posted by Delta1938


And I can't really see them as close. Closer than the gap between Superman and Wonder Woman? Sure. But that's not saying a ton.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG14.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG15.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG16.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG17.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG18.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/RelativeStrength/Teams/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG19.jpg




Orion has super speed. He rarely uses it, but he has it. His fight with Darkseid(who also rarely uses his super speed) was at super speed.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/Darkseid/ORION5

How fast is Darkseid? Well, one of the rare times he's used it, he moved so fast that Byrne era Superman didn't even see him move.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Villains/Darkseid/Miscellaneous/th_SUPERMAN_V2_3-PG08.jpg

Your move. Something actually substantial, perhaps?

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
What's Orion's defense if WW uses her full speed consistently? Sure, Orion's fought Superman, but has he ever fought Superman when Superman used his speed consistently?

Unless there is evidence showing Orion being able to deal with that kind of speed edge, then I have trouble seeing him winning.

I posted his fight with Darkseid at super speed(something both rarely do). I don't think Wonder Woman is as fast as I showed Darkseid to be.

Originally posted by Delta1938
She's not unhittable. I posted a bunch of examples in the Superman vs WW thread 'cuz you think she can't be hit(or damn near can never be).

To the level she beats him. He's an actual god of war and has used skill to compensate for beating Darkseid, despite Darkseid being much stronger than him and a skilled fighter himself. And Orion is stronger than her.

But I know how this will work. You'll disregard/ignore/mental gymnastic away all evidence shown to you and write-up your fanfic without backing your case. Or didn't notice these?



Your move. Something actually substantial, perhaps?



I posted his fight with Darkseid at super speed(something both rarely do). I don't think Wonder Woman is as fast as I showed Darkseid to be.

She's unhittable when it comes to energy beams. She blocks basically 100% of them.

She moves her limbs (arms and hands) ftl. Thus she can move her arms far faster than they can move.

Originally posted by h1a8
She's unhittable when it comes to energy beams. She blocks basically 100% of them.

She moves her limbs (arms and hands) ftl. Thus she can move her arms far faster than they can move.

No she's not. And even when she does, doesn't always help her. Like against Amazo with Superman's heat vision.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Villains/Amazo/Souped-UpAmazo/th_JLA27-PG15.jpg

Middle panel.

Abhi already showed that she basically is blocking where they aim. Also, I gave a better speed feat for Orion than you did. Because I actually gave one, not just threw around stuff without backing it up.

Originally posted by h1a8
I want to see how Orion beat WW.

The arguments I give are general and known by all. They don't need scans.
For example, WW can block the AF with her bracers and can send it back to him. WW can lasso him. WW can block multiple beams shot at her. Scans aren't needed. Now if I say something specific, like, WW has pressure pointed Superman before. Then if someone hasn't seen it then I should post scans of it since this is not general knowledge. H1 is destroying delta.

Originally posted by Delta1938
No she's not. And even when she does, doesn't always help her. Like against Amazo with Superman's heat vision.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Villains/Amazo/Souped-UpAmazo/th_JLA27-PG15.jpg

Middle panel.

Abhi already showed that she basically is blocking where they aim. Also, I gave a better speed feat for Orion than you did. Because I actually gave one, not just threw around stuff without backing it up.

She's blocking the hv in the scan.
I proved Abhilegend wrong. You can't aim block energy beams coming from someone's eyes. The only way to block is to wait until it is in the air and then block. One writer's opinion doesnt affect other writer's opinions.
She's has blocked a hail of bullets blindfolded. She even lassoed Zoom (who is faster than Orion).

Her strength compares to Orion's. She beat up on Hercules and bloodied him (who gave Superman a bloody nose). She beat up on Captain Nazi (who stalemated Black Adam to a double ko).

1. AF is not hitting her.
2. She has the lasso for an easy win.
3. She is incredibly skilled and can end the fight with less attacks by attacking sensitive areas.
4. She can send the AF back at Orion.
5. She can parry and counter a punch thrown by Orion with a devastating attack.

Her skill, strength, speed, reflexes, lasso, and bracelets combination give her the win.

Originally posted by h1a8
scans or issue number

In countdown Orion casually repelled the JLA, which included WW. They were like gnats to him

Originally posted by Delta1938
No she's not. And even when she does, doesn't always help her. Like against Amazo with Superman's heat vision.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Villains/Amazo/Souped-UpAmazo/th_JLA27-PG15.jpg

Middle panel.

Abhi already showed that she basically is blocking where they aim. Also, I gave a better speed feat for Orion than you did. Because I actually gave one, not just threw around stuff without backing it up. Orion is superior

Originally posted by h1a8
She's blocking the hv in the scan.

Originally posted by Delta1938
No she's not. And even when she does, doesn't always help her. Like against Amazo with Superman's heat vision.

Reread it.

Originally posted by h1a8
I proved Abhilegend wrong. You can't aim block energy beams coming from someone's eyes. The only way to block is to wait until it is in the air and then block. One writer's opinion doesnt affect other writer's opinions.
She's has blocked a hail of bullets blindfolded. She even lassoed Zoom (who is faster than Orion).

You didn't, actually. You wrote your fanfic and ignored all evidence while failing to provide an iota of your own. And good for her lassoing Zoom, when by your very own arguments that's PIS.


Originally posted by h1a8
Her strength compares to Orion's. She beat up on Hercules and bloodied him (who gave Superman a bloody nose). She beat up on Captain Nazi (who stalemated Black Adam to a double ko).

No it doesn't. I showed him going toe-to-toe with Superman when Wonder Woman needed a ****ton of help to barely restrain Superman after the Orion fight. And lol Hercules is definitely below Superman. So ****ing what he elbowed him in the nose? There's been so many examples that you've been shown that you ignore. Also, let's see some Wonder Woman/Hercules fights. And not the one where Hercules was fighting Circe, including getting blasted, and then when in a very vulnerable position pinning Circe, Wonder Woman comes in. Yeah, not a very good example. And Captain Nazi? You mean where the fight started with an experimental explosive that burned his face, and IIRC he was blind for a bit? Yeah, that's a solid example.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. AF is not hitting her.

Even if she blocks it, which she's definitely been hit without blocking, Malefic dropped her. Amazo with Superman's heat vision one-shot her. She might have partly blocked Ultraman, and he one-shot her, but either way you interpret it, it helps me, not you.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. She has the lasso for an easy win.



http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/RelativeStrength/Heroes/WonderWoman/Miscellaneous/th_AC753-PG10.jpg

You were saying?

Originally posted by h1a8
3. She is incredibly skilled and can end the fight with less attacks by attacking sensitive areas.

I don't know if she's ever even done what you argue, but hey, she's more skilled than a war god--

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/WarGod

--who's skilled enough to match someone who's stronger than him and quite skilled himself? And I already showed how much stronger than Wonder Woman that Orion is.

Originally posted by h1a8
4. She can send the AF back at Orion.
5. She can parry and counter a punch thrown by Orion with a devastating attack.

Her skill, strength, speed, reflexes, lasso, and bracelets combination give her the win.

You can say these all you want, but you can't back them up.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Orion is superior

Bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-but bracers!! Skill and speed!! Stun/lasso combo FTW!!!

A gust of wind isn't that impressive, Golgo.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Reread it.



You didn't, actually. You wrote your fanfic and ignored all evidence while failing to provide an iota of your own. And good for her lassoing Zoom, when by your very own arguments that's PIS.




No it doesn't. I showed him going toe-to-toe with Superman when Wonder Woman needed a ****ton of help to barely restrain Superman after the Orion fight. And lol Hercules is definitely below Superman. So ****ing what he elbowed him in the nose? There's been so many examples that you've been shown that you ignore. Also, let's see some Wonder Woman/Hercules fights. And not the one where Hercules was fighting Circe, including getting blasted, and then when in a very vulnerable position pinning Circe, Wonder Woman comes in. Yeah, not a very good example. And Captain Nazi? You mean where the fight started with an experimental explosive that burned his face, and IIRC he was blind for a bit? Yeah, that's a solid example.



Even if she blocks it, which she's definitely been hit without blocking, Malefic dropped her. Amazo with Superman's heat vision one-shot her. She might have partly blocked Ultraman, and he one-shot her, but either way you interpret it, it helps me, not you.





http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/RelativeStrength/Heroes/WonderWoman/Miscellaneous/th_AC753-PG10.jpg

You were saying?



I don't know if she's ever even done what you argue, but hey, she's more skilled than a war god--

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/WarGod

--who's skilled enough to match someone who's stronger than him and quite skilled himself? And I already showed how much stronger than Wonder Woman that Orion is.



You can say these all you want, but you can't back them up.



Bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-but bracers!! Skill and speed!! Stun/lasso combo FTW!!!

If she's blocks it she can send it back at Orion, damaging him or his harness. This is a forum fight. She will be operating at energy beam blocking level. That means she will have ftl reflexes at all times and ftl movement with her limbs at all times. In comics she always has ftl limb speed and reflexes when it comes to energy beams but manages to get hit by slower moving objects for the sake of the plot.

There is no plot here. If she can block multiple light speed beams 100% of the time in comics then she can block much slower moving things 100% of the time. This is not debatable.


Anyway, WW fighting at her best wouldn't lasso his hand. She would lasso his entire body where he can't move. This could be after a stunning hit.

WW could easily ko Orion in a h2h fight. She's more skilled and is a much better defender, counter attacker, and comboer.

Originally posted by h1a8
If she's blocks it she can send it back at Orion, damaging him or his harness. This is a forum fight. She will be operating at energy beam blocking level. That means she will have ftl reflexes at all times and ftl movement with her limbs at all times. In comics she always has ftl limb speed and reflexes when it comes to energy beams but manages to get hit by slower moving objects for the sake of the plot.

There is no plot here. If she can block multiple light speed beams 100% of the time in comics then she can block much slower moving things 100% of the time. This is not debatable.


Anyway, WW fighting at her best wouldn't lasso his hand. She would lasso his entire body where he can't move. This could be after a stunning hit.

WW could easily ko Orion in a h2h fight. She's more skilled and is a much better defender, counter attacker, and comboer.

Your entire argument comes down to unsubstantiated fanfic. Prove your argument or concede.

Also, Orion could just fix the Astro-Harness if it was even damaged.

Orion fighting at his best>>>Wonder Woman fighting at her best. You can't say she fights at her best and not give the same to Orion.

I'll just accept your concessions already, because all you do is ignore evidence and fail to present your own while writing-up your fanfic. So concessions accepted.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Your entire argument comes down to unsubstantiated fanfic. Prove your argument or concede.

Also, Orion could just fix the Astro-Harness if it was even damaged.

Orion fighting at his best>>>Wonder Woman fighting at her best. You can't say she fights at her best and not give the same to Orion.

I'll just accept your concessions already, because all you do is ignore evidence and fail to present your own while writing-up your fanfic. So concessions accepted. Cant Orions motherbox repair his damaged harness and maybe even upgrade it?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Your entire argument comes down to unsubstantiated fanfic. Prove your argument or concede.

Also, Orion could just fix the Astro-Harness if it was even damaged.

Orion fighting at his best>>>Wonder Woman fighting at her best. You can't say she fights at her best and not give the same to Orion.

I'll just accept your concessions already, because all you do is ignore evidence and fail to present your own while writing-up your fanfic. So concessions accepted.

He can't fix it in real battle time. There's no time. Remember WW has superspeed and can do actions in less than a microsecond.

What fanfic? WW blocks energy beams nearly 100% of the time in comics. There is no getting around that. In a forum, she would be operating with the same reflexes and speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
He can't fix it in real battle time. There's no time. Remember WW has superspeed and can do actions in less than a microsecond.

What fanfic? WW blocks energy beams nearly 100% of the time in comics. There is no getting around that. In a forum, she would be operating with the same reflexes and speed.

WW's speed and strength are weak sauce compared to an all out Orion.

Originally posted by h1a8
He can't fix it in real battle time. There's no time. Remember WW has superspeed and can do actions in less than a microsecond.

What fanfic? WW blocks energy beams nearly 100% of the time in comics. There is no getting around that. In a forum, she would be operating with the same reflexes and speed.

I was correct in accepting your concession ahead of time.

And since this is a forum fight, Orion goes intangible as he pleases, contains Wonder Woman in an Astro-Force force field that she can't escape, and creates miniature Boom Tubes all around her and in a pattern so he can simultaneously blast her with Astro-Force from all sides and angles. While she's in that force field.

I have a better chance of backing this than you do of backing any of your claims.

/thread

Originally posted by Delta1938
I was correct in accepting your concession ahead of time.

And since this is a forum fight, Orion goes intangible as he pleases, contains Wonder Woman in an Astro-Force force field that she can't escape, and creates miniature Boom Tubes all around her and in a pattern so he can simultaneously blast her with Astro-Force from all sides and angles. While she's in that force field.

I have a better chance of backing this than you do of backing any of your claims.

/thread

1. Prove that he can go intangible.
2. Prove that he can do any actions while intangible.
3. Prove that he can contain her in a force field.
4.Prove that the force field is strong enough where she can't shatter it in a few attacks or less.
5. Prove that he can create miniature and multiple boom tubes.
6.Prove that he can use them to blast multiple Astro Force beams at her.

My claims are things WW has actually done a billion times.
1. Use ftl reflexes and arm speed to block multiple energy beams at a near 100% success rate.
2. Lasso enemies.
3. Parry attacks and counter them.
4. Deflect beams back at sender
5. Use skill and agility in fights.
6. Strike very sensitive areas (pressure points).
7. Use combinations effectively.


If I was using fanatic then non of that stuff would have occurred in comics multiple times.

If the board rules basically stipulate that Wonder Woman will use her speed as effectively as she can, I see little hope for Orion.
He may have a scan or two suggesting speed on this level, but it's hardly an established capability. I believe the full capacity rules only apply to well-established powers, and not just something that was only shown once or twice. And in a murky way, at that.
Sure, in the comics I think Orion is favored Pre-FP. But I see little hope when PIS is turned off, and the full capacity rule is in effect. Orion may have done better against Superman than WW, on average, but he's never faced any high-level brick in a fight where top-level super speed has been consistently used against him.
He's just never going to hit Diana here. Sure, the fight won't look like any fight we've seen in the comics, but that's how we roll here, right?

Originally posted by Delta1938
More and more, I'm honestly thinking H1 doesn't read comics. Carter? I shall never let him forget when he set himself up about not reading comics.

And I can't really see them as close. Closer than the gap between Superman and Wonder Woman? Sure. But that's not saying a ton.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG14.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG15.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG16.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG17.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG18.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/RelativeStrength/Teams/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG19.jpg




Orion has super speed. He rarely uses it, but he has it. His fight with Darkseid(who also rarely uses his super speed) was at super speed.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/Darkseid/ORION5

How fast is Darkseid? Well, one of the rare times he's used it, he moved so fast that Byrne era Superman didn't even see him move.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Villains/Darkseid/Miscellaneous/th_SUPERMAN_V2_3-PG08.jpg

Lol Orion is not as fast as WW or anywhere close to it, none of the feats you provided show that. WW has a plethora of speed feats. Can you post multiple feats from Orion on her level?

Originally posted by iceman24567
Nobody is ignoring anything

*reads various replies in which her speed is ignored and people say Orion wins*

Well okay, if you say so.

Is this the same logic by which Batgirl beats Batman and Captain America together?

Speed is rarely such a factor in her fights. I'd like you to show me her beating anyone with a blitz.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Prove that he can go intangible.
2. Prove that he can do any actions while intangible.
3. Prove that he can contain her in a force field.
4.Prove that the force field is strong enough where she can't shatter it in a few attacks or less.
5. Prove that he can create miniature and multiple boom tubes.
6.Prove that he can use them to blast multiple Astro Force beams at her.

My claims are things WW has actually done a billion times.
1. Use ftl reflexes and arm speed to block multiple energy beams at a near 100% success rate.
2. Lasso enemies.
3. Parry attacks and counter them.
4. Deflect beams back at sender
5. Use skill and agility in fights.
6. Strike very sensitive areas (pressure points).
7. Use combinations effectively.


If I was using fanatic then non of that stuff would have occurred in comics multiple times.

Nope. You back your case to someone who actually has given feats, before I post more scans.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
If the board rules basically stipulate that Wonder Woman will use her speed as effectively as she can, I see little hope for Orion.
He may have a scan or two suggesting speed on this level, but it's hardly an established capability. I believe the full capacity rules only apply to well-established powers, and not just something that was only shown once or twice. And in a murky way, at that.
Sure, in the comics I think Orion is favored Pre-FP. But I see little hope when PIS is turned off, and the full capacity rule is in effect. Orion may have done better against Superman than WW, on average, but he's never faced any high-level brick in a fight where top-level super speed has been consistently used against him.
He's just never going to hit Diana here. Sure, the fight won't look like any fight we've seen in the comics, but that's how we roll here, right?

Based on what Pr and Bada have said, it doesn't seem that the rule works that way. Plus, Orion having so far fewer appearances would mean each example of him actually fighting at super speed holds more weight than one of Wonder Woman's does.

Originally posted by Surtur
Lol Orion is not as fast as WW or anywhere close to it, none of the feats you provided show that. WW has a plethora of speed feats. Can you post multiple feats from Orion on her level?

Orion was doing fine keeping-up with Darkseid. Are you saying Wonder Woman can move so fast that Superman can't even see her?

Originally posted by Surtur
*reads various replies in which her speed is ignored and people say Orion wins*

Well okay, if you say so.

How about you help H1 then? Since he doesn't seem to know how to post scans, as not once in the past several debates he's posted evidence when asked to back his case. Even though it's not an official source, we'll use DC Wikia as a measure for how many appearances they have, just so we have something to work with. It gives Wonder Woman 1,283 and Orion 256 appearances. That's just over 5 times as many appearances for Wonder Woman.

Let's see you post 5 examples of Wonder Woman fighting at super speed, actually fighting, whether overwhelming an opponent with super speed, or fighting evenly with an opponent at super speed. Not her blocking, not her tackling or whatnot someone while flying in a straight line. Not tagging(or similar) a speedster as Batman's done shit like that. Actually fighting an opponent at super speed, and a clear example(so, fights with Superman don't count unless you can prove they're consistently fighting at super speed). Then we'll go from there. If she uses her speed so much, that should be easy for you to do. K?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Is this the same logic by which Batgirl beats Batman and Captain America together?

Speed is rarely such a factor in her fights. I'd like you to show me her beating anyone with a blitz.

Speed is rarely a factor in Superman fights as well. Gotcha.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Nope. You back your case to someone who actually has given feats, before I post more scans.



Based on what Pr and Bada have said, it doesn't seem that the rule works that way. Plus, Orion having so far fewer appearances would mean each example of him actually fighting at super speed holds more weight than one of Wonder Woman's does.



Orion was doing fine keeping-up with Darkseid. Are you saying Wonder Woman can move so fast that Superman can't even see her?



How about you help H1 then? Since he doesn't seem to know how to post scans, as not once in the past several debates he's posted evidence when asked to back his case. Even though it's not an official source, we'll use DC Wikia as a measure for how many appearances they have, just so we have something to work with. It gives Wonder Woman 1,283 and Orion 256 appearances. That's just over 5 times as many appearances for Wonder Woman.

Let's see you post 5 examples of Wonder Woman fighting at super speed, actually fighting, whether overwhelming an opponent with super speed, or fighting evenly with an opponent at super speed. Not her blocking, not her tackling or whatnot someone while flying in a straight line. Not tagging(or similar) a speedster as Batman's done shit like that. Actually fighting an opponent at super speed, and a clear example(so, fights with Superman don't count unless you can prove they're consistently fighting at super speed). Then we'll go from there. If she uses her speed so much, that should be easy for you to do. K?

Why should I post scans on general knowledge? That's like asking you to post a scan of Superman lifting a car as proof to whether he can.

WW has blocked multiple beams of energy (including hv). No scans are needed.

WW has lassoed multiple beings. No scans are needed.

WW has struck Superman and others in very sensitive areas. No scans are needed.

WW has displayed the ability to parry attacks and counter attack. No scans are needed.


Lastly, you can't equate one character's showing with any other showing. DS moving to fast for Superman to see has absolutely nothing to do with Orion fighting DS in a totally different comic and scene. Otherwise, I can say that Colossus tanked planet destroying punches from Gladiator or IM hits harder than someone who can shatter worlds without touching them.
Characters operate at different levels at different times. Bryne Era Superman was KOed by a gas station. Thus it's not hard to believe that his reflex ability was subpar at times and pretty good at other times. Superman has had no problem seeing DS move in other scenes (even seeing DD move in some scenes).

Bottomline, Orion will not be moving faster than light in this fight. WW can block light speed attacks 100% of the time. WW has a lasso. WW can counter attack. Do the math.

Originally posted by h1a8
Why should I post scans on general knowledge? That's like asking you to post a scan of Superman lifting a car as proof to whether he can.

WW has blocked multiple beams of energy (including hv). No scans are needed.

WW has lassoed multiple beings. No scans are needed.

WW has struck Superman and others in very sensitive areas. No scans are needed.

WW has displayed the ability to parry attacks and counter attack. No scans are needed.


Lastly, you can't equate one character's showing with any other showing. DS moving to fast for Superman to see has absolutely nothing to do with Orion fighting DS in a totally different comic and scene. Otherwise, I can say that Colossus tanked planet destroying punches from Gladiator or IM hits harder than someone who can shatter worlds without touching them.
Characters operate at different levels at different times. Bryne Era Superman was KOed by a gas station. Thus it's not hard to believe that his reflex ability was subpar at times and pretty good at other times. Superman has had no problem seeing DS move in other scenes (even seeing DD move in some scenes).

Bottomline, Orion will not be moving faster than light in this fight. WW can block light speed attacks 100% of the time. WW has a lasso. WW can counter attack. Do the math.

Astro Force would devour her.

Darkseid himself doesn't have super speed. He doesn't magically get granted high end speed because in one instance Superman couldn't keep up with him. If that was the ONLY appearance in Darkseids history then sure, use it.

So, that was his only appearance, right? Dude showed up, showed FTL speeds, and never was seen again? Awesome.

ABC logic is not your friend, this isn't a dragonball Z fight.

Some of the arguments in here


http://gif.co/o8gf.gif


Anyway Orion wins

Comes in and implies a lot of the comments are stupid..then makes a stupid comment himself. Interesting.

Originally posted by Surtur
Comes in and implies a lot of the comments are stupid..then makes a stupid comment himself. Interesting.


Not yours dude, you just happened to post right before mine

But Orion does win

I mean it's pretty much time for people to decide if characters are going to use their speed or if they are not. Since it surely seems like some want to be able to cherry pick when it will or won't be used. It's silly. Make a decision.

I mean if people want to say they don't I honestly have no problem as long as it applies to every character.

But then that sucks for Flash fans. Or is it just..if super speed is your only power, then you can use it? But damn though, for most Flashes super speed isn't their only power.

Originally posted by Zack M
Astro Force would devour her. No it wouldn't. She deflect it back at him. He devour himself.

Originally posted by Surtur
I mean it's pretty much time for people to decide if characters are going to use their speed or if they are not. Since it surely seems like some want to be able to cherry pick when it will or won't be used. It's silly. Make a decision.

I mean if people want to say they don't I honestly have no problem as long as it applies to every character.

But then that sucks for Flash fans. Or is it just..if super speed is your only power, then you can use it? But damn though, for most Flashes super speed isn't their only power.

You do know that Orion is much slower than Wonder Woman.?

Originally posted by h1a8
No it wouldn't. She deflect it back at him. He devour himself.

It would. Diana's bracers are nothing compared to the great AF. Lasso won't work, either, especially with the force fields Orion can conjure up.

Originally posted by Zack M
It would. Diana's bracers are nothing compared to the great AF. Lasso won't work, either, especially with the force fields Orion can conjure up. Bracers >>>>>>>AF. They have redirected the OE and other things with greater feats than the AF.
Orion can't attack with force field up. He will let it down to attack. Diana can counter any attack made and stun him momentarily. She can lasso him at that moment.

Originally posted by h1a8
Bracers >>>>>>>AF. They have redirected the OE and other things with greater feats than the AF.
Orion can't attack with force field up. He will let it down to attack. Diana can counter any attack made and stun him momentarily. She can lasso him at that moment.

Orion's AF has also redirected the OE. Not too impressive. Only one man can contain the AF and that's orion.

Originally posted by Zack M
Orion's AF has also redirected the OE. Not too impressive. Only one man can contain the AF and that's orion. energy can redirect energy. Doesn't have to be equals. The AF is doing nothing to the bracers.

Originally posted by carver9
You do know that Orion is much slower than Wonder Woman.?

Yeah dude.. I was one of the people saying she blitzes him. She is hilariously faster than Orion.

Originally posted by h1a8
energy can redirect energy. Doesn't have to be equals. The AF is doing nothing to the bracers.

AF would blow up the bracers.

Originally posted by Zack M
AF would blow up the bracers. lol, so the AF is more powerful than the OE, the entire Greek pantheon, etc?

The bracers have never been damaged by any
energy attacks (even Skyfather level). But the AF has failed to destroy many things with lesser durability.


I tell you what? Prove that the AF is more powerful than the OE given its feats. Also prove that the AF is more powerful than high end HV by superman.

Did you know that Diana can create a large indestructible spherical force field twice her height just by crossing her bracelets?

Originally posted by h1a8
lol, so the AF is more powerful than the OE, the entire Greek pantheon, etc?

The bracers have never been damaged by any
energy attacks (even Skyfather level). But the AF has failed to destroy many things with lesser durability.


I tell you what? Prove that the AF is more powerful than the OE given its feats. Also prove that the AF is more powerful than high end HV by superman.

Did you know that Diana can create a large indestructible spherical force field twice her height just by crossing her bracelets?

AF>>>Anything Diana has experienced.

The AF also typically fires a wide beam, as in from the whole of his sled. The bracers only cover a relatively small area.

Of course, she can create her rarely used force field, but then, we'd have to show it has the same feats as the bracers themselves...

Originally posted by Zack M
AF>>>Anything Diana has experienced.

Prove that the AF >>>>OE and high end HV

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The AF also typically fires a wide beam, as in from the whole of his sled. The bracers only cover a relatively small area.

Of course, she can create her rarely used force field, but then, we'd have to show it has the same feats as the bracers themselves... But Zack is saying that the AF beam will definitely destroy the bracers. Do you agree with this?

Who cares if the AF would destroy the bracers? Orion won't have a chance to use it. The guy could have the Ultimate Nullifier in his hands and it still wouldn't matter.

Orion solos

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Orion solos Naw. WW wins. Too fast, too skilled, hax lasso, hax bracelets, etc.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that the AF >>>>OE and high end HV

OE doesn't have any universal feats.

Originally posted by Zack M
OE doesn't have any universal feats. neither does the AF

Originally posted by h1a8
But Zack is saying that the AF beam will definitely destroy the bracers. Do you agree with this?

Nah, I don't agree with that. I'm just saying, it doesn't have to. What is the best feat her shield has done?

destroy the braces? lmfao.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nah, I don't agree with that. I'm just saying, it doesn't have to. What is the best feat her shield has done?

She deflected the full might of Olympus that was said to have unlimited power. The bracers also shielded her body.

http://m.imgur.com/dBcaBrh?r


Shield herself from Ares Blast.

http://m.imgur.com/Q9BJ2OX?r

Deflects Silver Swan attack.

http://m.imgur.com/rNcuM4Z?r

Withstands an attack from Nekron.

http://m.imgur.com/a/6vXDW

I'm sure this is enough to prove that the ASTRO Force gets deflected.

Originally posted by h1a8
neither does the AF

It has one.

Originally posted by carver9
She deflected the full might of Olympus that was said to have unlimited power. The bracers also shielded her body.

http://m.imgur.com/dBcaBrh?r


Shield herself from Ares Blast.

http://m.imgur.com/Q9BJ2OX?r

Deflects Silver Swan attack.

http://m.imgur.com/rNcuM4Z?r

Withstands an attack from Nekron.

http://m.imgur.com/a/6vXDW

I'm sure this is enough to prove that the ASTRO Force gets deflected.

So, NONE of her shields? In every scan you posted, the bracers deflected and blocked and shielded, explicitly so in the Olympus scan. I was asking about a full body AoE blast.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So, NONE of her shields? In every scan you posted, the bracers deflected and blocked and shielded, explicitly so in the Olympus scan. I was asking about a full body AoE blast.

http://i.imgur.com/bDzQm4v.jpg

Something like that?

And her force field is talked about here.

http://m.imgur.com/0FYNSIo?r

Originally posted by iceman24567
Nobody is ignoring anything

H1 is ignoring all evidence against him.

Originally posted by h1a8
Why should I post scans on general knowledge? That's like asking you to post a scan of Superman lifting a car as proof to whether he can.

WW has blocked multiple beams of energy (including hv). No scans are needed.

WW has lassoed multiple beings. No scans are needed.

WW has struck Superman and others in very sensitive areas. No scans are needed.

WW has displayed the ability to parry attacks and counter attack. No scans are needed.


Lastly, you can't equate one character's showing with any other showing. DS moving to fast for Superman to see has absolutely nothing to do with Orion fighting DS in a totally different comic and scene. Otherwise, I can say that Colossus tanked planet destroying punches from Gladiator or IM hits harder than someone who can shatter worlds without touching them.
Characters operate at different levels at different times. Bryne Era Superman was KOed by a gas station. Thus it's not hard to believe that his reflex ability was subpar at times and pretty good at other times. Superman has had no problem seeing DS move in other scenes (even seeing DD move in some scenes).

Bottomline, Orion will not be moving faster than light in this fight. WW can block light speed attacks 100% of the time. WW has a lasso. WW can counter attack. Do the math.

Actual evidence, both for Orion and against Wonder Woman, has been posted. You just keep clinging to your fanfic. The burden of proof lies on you. You can't expect to be taken seriously when you blatantly ignore evidence and fail to provide any of your own. Put up or shut up.

Oh shut up ya ignoramus. You do this when it suits you, then go against it when it suits you. Orion and Darkseid have few appearances(relative to how long they'd been around) therefore your argument doesn't work. Bringing-up Superman in DOS is a red herring even if it weren't out of context. Plus the hypocrisy of you citing the rule then bringing this up.

Your options at this point are either A: back up your case instead of making unsubstantiated claims while crying you don't have to provide evidence then demanding others post evidence when you question it, or B: concede you don't actually read comics.

Originally posted by Surtur
Darkseid himself doesn't have super speed. He doesn't magically get granted high end speed because in one instance Superman couldn't keep up with him. If that was the ONLY appearance in Darkseids history then sure, use it.

So, that was his only appearance, right? Dude showed up, showed FTL speeds, and never was seen again? Awesome.

ABC logic is not your friend, this isn't a dragonball Z fight.

Not only is this an incredibly stupid argument, but I actually showed two examples. I guess it's just that hard of finding Wonder Woman using offensive combat super speed. The delicious irony is you keep using that without providing even one example, while Orion having far fewer appearances means Orion is more likely to speed-blitz Wonder Woman than Wonder Woman speed-blitzing anybody.

Originally posted by Surtur
I mean it's pretty much time for people to decide if characters are going to use their speed or if they are not. Since it surely seems like some want to be able to cherry pick when it will or won't be used. It's silly. Make a decision.

I mean if people want to say they don't I honestly have no problem as long as it applies to every character.

But then that sucks for Flash fans. Or is it just..if super speed is your only power, then you can use it? But damn though, for most Flashes super speed isn't their only power.

Considering that Flash actually uses his speed in every fight, this is either a dishonest strawman, or proof you don't understand the rules, how comics work, or both. Here for you and H1 proving you two are clueless on the actual rules. Edits only to highlight the parts you two fail to understand.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html





CIS is still in play unless otherwise specified. I did not say CIS was off. Therefore the burden of proof is on the person arguing Wonder Woman speed-blitzing. And nobody has provided one single example of Wonder Woman using offensive combat super speed, let alone what I stated. Flash, on the other hand, can easily be shown to consistently use offensive combat super speed in, like, every ****ing fight that doesn't have extenuating circumstances. So, anybody who says, "Must suck for Flash" doesn't understand the rules, how comics work, or both. Unless they're just flat-out dishonest.

Originally posted by carver9
You do know that Orion is much slower than Wonder Woman.?

Prove it. Let's see those great combat speed examples I gave the criteria for fearful one.

Originally posted by Surtur
Yeah dude.. I was one of the people saying she blitzes him. She is hilariously faster than Orion.

Your lack of examples and either dishonest red herring or hilarious proof you don't understand comics/the rules/both shows it's really hard to find one example of Wonder Woman using speed the way I said.

Originally posted by h1a8
Naw. WW wins. Too fast, too skilled, hax lasso, hax bracelets, etc.

Prove it. Stop using "common knowledge" as a ****ing crutch, ya ignoramus!!

Originally posted by Zack M
OE doesn't have any universal feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
neither does the AF

False. And don't demand proof until you provide evidence yourself. Once you've actually made an effort to back your case, I'll show you.

Lol I'm sorry but no, the feats you posted for Orion don't show him as faster than Wonder Woman. She has feats of moving at high speeds and showing high end reaction time.

Why bother showing you any feats when you already give yourself away? Just the way you phrase shit. You know damn well she has high end speed feats, but you seem to not understand this whole "we can extrapolate certain things based on feats". She can move her limbs at super speed, and react at such. Therefore, she can throw a punch at super speed.

That is why nobody is really bothering with it, its not hard to tell the excuses you would try to use to negate any feats given unless they showed WW doing DBZ style high speed attacks. It's the same tired tactic you and others use when it comes to super speed.

You even try to justify Darkseid having some level of impressive speed because he doesn't have a lot of appearances. Which would sure be a valid argument if he only appeared once or twice.

Originally posted by Surtur
Lol I'm sorry but no, the feats you posted for Orion don't show him as faster than Wonder Woman. She has feats of moving at high speeds and showing high end reaction time.

Why bother showing you any feats when you already give yourself away? Just the way you phrase shit. You know damn well she has high end speed feats, but you seem to not understand this whole "we can extrapolate certain things based on feats". She can move her limbs at super speed, and react at such. Therefore, she can throw a punch at super speed.

So you still have nothing AND don't understand how the rules work? I never said "CIS off" so the burden of proof is on you.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So you still have nothing AND don't understand how the rules work? I never said "CIS off" so the burden of proof is on you.

But what I'm saying has nothing to do with CIS being off. What I'm saying is you seem to be one of those people who seem to feel we can't extrapolate a character can fight at super speed based on them being able to move and react at high speeds.

So am I wrong in that?

Originally posted by Surtur
But what I'm saying has nothing to do with CIS being off. What I'm saying is you seem to be one of those people who seem to feel we can't extrapolate a character can fight at super speed based on them being able to move and react at high speeds.

So am I wrong in that?

So it's really that hard to give what I've cited? And love how you dance around the idiotic Flash comparison. Shows you're either dishonest, or don't understand how the rules/comics/both work.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So it's really that hard to give what I've cited?

So yes, you are that kind of person so what is the point?



Lol there is nothing to dance around because it wasn't really worthy of response. Flash doesn't utilize his powers to the fullest extent in every fight. You danced around that by saying he uses some level of speed in every fight. Yet he gets tagged loads of times by people with no real speed at all.

So I'm not sure what I'm dishonest about. I never said Flash doesn't use his speed. When it comes to people whose main power is speed, their problem tends to be from just not going all out and allowing far slower beings to tag you. When it comes to characters with variety of powers with them they usually just forget they have it all together.

Originally posted by Surtur
So yes, you are that kind of person so what is the point?



Lol there is nothing to dance around because it wasn't really worthy of response. Flash doesn't utilize his powers to the fullest extent in every feat. You danced around that by saying he uses some level of speed in every fight.

So you don't have even one example when she has about 5 times as many appearances. Gotcha.

Let's see what you said.

Originally posted by Surtur
I mean it's pretty much time for people to decide if characters are going to use their speed or if they are not. Since it surely seems like some want to be able to cherry pick when it will or won't be used. It's silly. Make a decision.

I mean if people want to say they don't I honestly have no problem as long as it applies to every character.

But then that sucks for Flash fans. Or is it just..if super speed is your only power, then you can use it? But damn though, for most Flashes super speed isn't their only power.

Yeah, Superman does speed-blitz, but not every fight, like you have a tendency to argue. Bringing-up Flash as a comparison, since he actually does fight at super speed as a standard, shows either you were being blatantly dishonest, or don't understand comics/the rules/both.

Didn't see your edit until after I posted. Doesn't really change anything, though. If anything it just shows more your inability to understand how comics work.

But Flash routinely fails to use all his speed in his fights. So what was dishonest? Superman doesn't blitz due to PIS. It's the same with Flash. He doesn't always blitz due to PIS. He doesn't always come at you at the speed of light. So yes, he fails to use his speed just as much as the others.

Also I ask again: are you one of those people who feel we can't extrapolate from feats? If you are then what would be the point of providing you with any of her feats?

Originally posted by carver9

Something like that?
Something like that, yes. But where does it say her FF was being used?



That's it? This is pretty much the only scan you have shown to support the idea that WW's FF can stand up to the Astro-Force from a bloodlusted (i.e. normal, lol) Orion. The only one. Deary me.

Originally posted by Surtur
But Flash routinely fails to use all his speed in his fights. So what was dishonest? Superman doesn't blitz due to PIS. It's the same with Flash. He doesn't always blitz due to PIS. He doesn't always come at you at the speed of light. So yes, he fails to use his speed just as much as the others.

Also I ask again: are you one of those people who feel we can't extrapolate from feats? If you are then what would be the point of providing you with any of her feats?

The fact that you said Superman doesn't always blitz due to "PIS" shows you're either lying, or don't understand comics. He doesn't always blitz because of CIS, not PIS.

Hmm Orion still wins

I agree that in the comics, Orion edges it. I've said as much.

But I was led to believe that we don't rate fights that way here. I get the feeling that most of the people saying that Orion wins are going more by the comics than they are strictly by the board rules.

If you are arguing Orion's side, by the board rules, it should all come down to proving that (a) Orion's speed will let him get in at least one action before Diana blitzes the crap out of him and (b) that action will be an overwhelming use of the Astro Force that even Diana can't block with her bracers.

This chain of logic may be provable--the AF has some crazy feats. But if you are following the board rules, I feel your argument really needs to follow along the above lines fairly strictly.

Originally posted by Delta1938
The fact that you said Superman doesn't always blitz due to "PIS" shows you're either lying, or don't understand comics. He doesn't always blitz because of CIS, not PIS.

You say the silliest things sometimes. In my opinion it's PIS. There is no "lying" here because this isn't all set in stone so I don't even know what you are talking about. I'm lying to you about what..my opinion?

He doesn't always blitz because of PIS in my view. It's not in character for Superman to want to prolong a fight, giving ample opportunity for more destruction to be caused. Why wouldn't Superman want to end a fight as quickly and neatly as possible? He doesn't need to murder you to disable you with his speed.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I agree that in the comics, Orion edges it. I've said as much.

But I was led to believe that we don't rate fights that way here. I get the feeling that most of the people saying that Orion wins are going more by the comics than they are strictly by the board rules.

If you are arguing Orion's side, by the board rules, it should all come down to proving that (a) Orion's speed will let him get in at least one action before Diana blitzes the crap out of him and (b) that action will be an overwhelming use of the Astro Force that even Diana can't block with her bracers.

This chain of logic may be provable--the AF has some crazy feats. But if you are following the board rules, I feel your argument really needs to follow along the above lines fairly strictly.

I understand your confusion because it seems like people just randomly decide when super speed will be a factor and when it won't. Sometimes the characters will use it, and other times it's "oh but they rarely do that in comics".

I've been here for a while and it still confuses me. People might say we don't argue powersets here and they always go "This isn't CBR" and then you look around though and you see some debates that lasted hundreds of even THOUSANDS of pages and do you want to know why they go on for so long? Because they follow the "anything can happen in a comic" type of logic. That is what that kind of debating ultimately gets you. You just go round and round in circles and somehow this is more preferable? I will never understand it.

CIS is basically dictated by PIS anyway.

It's a pointless distinction in my opinion.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
CIS is basically dictated by PIS anyway.

It's a pointless distinction in my opinion.

It depends on the character though. If you have a character who, in the story, is legitimately a very unintelligent person..it's actually in character for them to not use their powers as well as they should. They aren't dumbing down a character for the sake of the plot.

So Superman isn't stupid and it makes no sense why someone who genuinely cares about people would want to give villains time to cause mass amounts of destruction by having a big epic fight with them.

I agree with you on that Surtur. I think that at the end of a battle between these two, the winner will definitely know that they had been through a tough fight. My issue is with those that think that one would stomp by dominating the other? Errors do occur that can tip the battle towards either combatant engaging, or being engaged while striking. Diana is clearly the swiftest out of the two. Orion's hot head could be used against him, because like it or not, Diana is just as calculating of a fighter as Orion is. Well, in her own style. Anyway, It's too close to tell is all that I can say.

Originally posted by Surtur
I understand your confusion because it seems like people just randomly decide when super speed will be a factor and when it won't. Sometimes the characters will use it, and other times it's "oh but they rarely do that in comics".

I've been here for a while and it still confuses me. People might say we don't argue powersets here and they always go "This isn't CBR" and then you look around though and you see some debates that lasted hundreds of even THOUSANDS of pages and do you want to know why they go on for so long? Because they follow the "anything can happen in a comic" type of logic. That is what that kind of debating ultimately gets you. You just go round and round in circles and somehow this is more preferable? I will never understand it.

I take the opposite view: I believe that this board's understanding of what they call PIS and CIS is immature. And this has led them to believe that there is no way to rate fights "by the comics" as "anything could happen". It's not really like that at all.

On the other hand, I believe that it's this board's take on rating fights that will ultimately end in circles. Applying too much realism and ignoring comic conventions will inevitably lead to asking critical questions requiring a level of detail and consistency that the comics cannot reliably provide. Take the question at hand: Orion vs. Wonder Woman. Far from making fights easier to definitively and objectively rate, and reach a conclusion, the board's rules--applied with vigor--lead to questions like: can Wonder Woman, starting at however meters away from Orion, reach him from a standing start faster than he can react at all, and if so, can she disable him before he can react? What is Wonder Woman's maximum acceleration rate in M/s? What is Orion's measured reaction time? These are fine-grain, yet critical, questions for which the text material only has inconsistent and much less-detailed data.

Still, I'm up for trying new things. And so I'm trying to play by the board's rules and see where it takes us. I've changed my mind before. So at the very least I'd like people to be playing by one set of coherent rules--but that doesn't seem to be happening.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I take the opposite view: I believe that this board's understanding of what they call PIS and CIS is immature. And this has led them to believe that there is no way to rate fights "by the comics" as "anything could happen". It's not really like that at all.

On the other hand, I believe that it's this board's take on rating fights that will ultimately end in circles. Applying too much realism and ignoring comic conventions will inevitably lead to asking critical questions requiring a level of detail and consistency that the comics cannot reliably provide. Take the question at hand: Orion vs. Wonder Woman. Far from making fights easier to definitively and objectively rate, and reach a conclusion, the board's rules--applied with vigor--lead to questions like: can Wonder Woman, starting at however meters away from Orion, reach him from a standing start faster than he can react at all, and if so, can she disable him before he can react? What is Wonder Woman's maximum acceleration rate in M/s? What is Orion's measured reaction time? These are fine-grain, yet critical, questions for which the text material only has inconsistent and much less-detailed data.

Still, I'm up for trying new things. And so I'm trying to play by the board's rules and see where it takes us. I've changed my mind before. So at the very least I'd like people to be playing by one set of coherent rules--but that doesn't seem to be happening.

That isn't really what the spirit of the rules, or most of the rules themselves, are about.

CIS and PIS alone are about establishing what we believe would happen in comics without the constraints of bad plotting or writing.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That isn't really what the spirit of the rules, or most of the rules themselves, are about.

CIS and PIS alone are about establishing what we believe would happen in comics without the constraints of bad plotting or writing.

Sounds more like what I would believe, though 'bad' is going to be problematic. However, the explicit nature of the 'Full Capacity' rule leads me to believe I might still part company with the board rules, even when considered in their proper spirit.

Further elucidation is always appreciated, though I'll understand if you feel this is the wrong place to have such a discussion.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Sounds more like what I would believe, though 'bad' is going to be problematic. However, the explicit nature of the 'Full Capacity' rule leads me to believe I might still part company with the board rules, even when considered in their proper spirit.

Further elucidation is always appreciated, though I'll understand if you feel this is the wrong place to have such a discussion.

I don't mind clarifying as long as the thread doesn't get too derailed.

My view of this board has, for a long time been "if I wrote this fight in a comic, how would I have it go down" while taking in to account the character's behaviour and personality (at least how I view them).

I was the one that wrote the example about the Juggernaut and Martian Manhunter, so I'd hope that would give you some idea of where i'm coming from.

Full capacity for me has always meant "doesn't fight stupidly" rather than "uses 100% of their power all the time".

The prime example of that is the Flash. For me, full capacity means more about him not tripping over random twigs than it does Infinite Mass Punching the face off of everything. Sure, if Flash is against someone he can't beat with speed alone, he'd break out the exotic stuff, but a lot of people seem to miss that middle stage, no matter how many times we have to remind them that these characters are characters, not powersets you get to mould to your will.

"if I wrote this fight in a comic, how would I have it go down"

If you amended that to "if a typical writer wrote this fight in a comic, how would he likely have it go down," I'd be down with that.

Applying the above maxim with a fair and objective spirit basically deals with most problems that the 'CIS' and 'PIS" concepts are supposedly needed to deal with. While I don't believe in any kind of strict averaging (certain portrayals or events are clearly more defining of a character than others), when one looks at a character one obviously takes into account the breadth of his career. If the Flash is always tripping over twigs, then maybe you have an issue. But typically these are just low-showings that posters are trying to pass off as being more typical than they really are.

So perhaps what you meant by the Full Capacity rule was basically "don't present atypical, low showings as the norm for a character?"

Basically characters aren't dumber than they are. They will not fight stupider than what they actually are. If Flash or Thor knows that the only way to win is through exotic means then they will use it.
Superman may start the fight gauging the power level of his enemy. He will turn up the juice (power mostly) if he sees he has to and the enemy can take it without dying. He will not fight stupider than what he actually is and lose the fight.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Sure, if Flash is against someone he can't beat with speed alone, he'd break out the exotic stuff, but a lot of people seem to miss that middle stage, no matter how many times we have to remind them that these characters are characters, not powersets you get to mould to your will.

The problem with Flash, is that middle ground could conceivably take place within a microsecond. The same issue occurs with those with superintelligence.

Just know, if CIS was taken completely off of KMC, the style of debating these character would change. I can get away with Hulk going WB during the onset of a fight.

He needs something to be angry about though, to get stronger? He can't just amp without anger. And there are limits to it. He doesn't go WBH just because Spidey used a yo mamma joke.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
"if I wrote this fight in a comic, how would I have it go down"

If you amended that to "if a typical writer wrote this fight in a comic, how would he likely have it go down," I'd be down with that.

Applying the above maxim with a fair and objective spirit basically deals with most problems that the 'CIS' and 'PIS" concepts are supposedly needed to deal with. While I don't believe in any kind of strict averaging (certain portrayals or events are clearly more defining of a character than others), when one looks at a character one obviously takes into account the breadth of his career. If the Flash is always tripping over twigs, then maybe you have an issue. But typically these are just low-showings that posters are trying to pass off as being more typical than they really are.

So perhaps what you meant by the Full Capacity rule was basically "don't present atypical, low showings as the norm for a character?"

The problem for me is that a "typical writer" is a very vague idea, and in all honesty, this is us debating the characters, not "what would Grant Morrison do?". We all know what he'd do, for starters.

We already have a low showings rule. Petty people just like to ignore it for whatever reason.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The problem with Flash, is that middle ground could conceivably take place within a microsecond. The same issue occurs with those with superintelligence.

Sure, but that's why I like to try to trust that people won't be ridiculous with their claims, only to be inevitably disappointed.

========

The problem for me is that while we do want people to be able to debate in constructive, intelligent ways, the way some people carry on, we'd have to be incredibly strict in terms of what can and can't be argued, and that just wouldn't be fair.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He needs something to be angry about though, to get stronger? He can't just amp without anger. And there are limits to it. He doesn't go WBH just because Spidey used a yo mamma joke.

He was able to go WB plenty of times without a cause. You keep reflecting to his Sentry fight and his last battle. He was able to activate that ability on his own.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I take the opposite view: I believe that this board's understanding of what they call PIS and CIS is immature. And this has led them to believe that there is no way to rate fights "by the comics" as "anything could happen". It's not really like that at all.

On the other hand, I believe that it's this board's take on rating fights that will ultimately end in circles. Applying too much realism and ignoring comic conventions will inevitably lead to asking critical questions requiring a level of detail and consistency that the comics cannot reliably provide. Take the question at hand: Orion vs. Wonder Woman. Far from making fights easier to definitively and objectively rate, and reach a conclusion, the board's rules--applied with vigor--lead to questions like: can Wonder Woman, starting at however meters away from Orion, reach him from a standing start faster than he can react at all, and if so, can she disable him before he can react? What is Wonder Woman's maximum acceleration rate in M/s? What is Orion's measured reaction time? These are fine-grain, yet critical, questions for which the text material only has inconsistent and much less-detailed data.

Still, I'm up for trying new things. And so I'm trying to play by the board's rules and see where it takes us. I've changed my mind before. So at the very least I'd like people to be playing by one set of coherent rules--but that doesn't seem to be happening.

Is it any better than just "the character I want to win can only win if the other character forgets his powers so naturally..guess who is going to be forgetting their powers?!??!"

And then in another topic "Well the character I want to win has super speed so YEP speedblitz ftw!!!!".

I mean if we're just going to essentially be writing comics in these threads..shouldn't we try to get these f*ckers published?

Originally posted by carver9
He was able to go WB plenty of times without a cause. You keep reflecting to his Sentry fight and his last battle. He was able to activate that ability on his own. He was just testing himself. He would never go WB in a fight though since he would kill. Superman would never cut loose unless he has no choice.

Morals are still on. Don't confuse morals with strategy.

Originally posted by h1a8
He was just testing himself. He would never go WB in a fight though since he would kill. Superman would never cut loose unless he has no choice.

Morals are still on. Don't confuse morals with strategy.

Going WB is a strategy.

Originally posted by carver9
Going WB is a strategy. Yes but it goes against Hulks morals when fighting someone. So that strategy is off the table.

Going WB is fine, just never go full retard.

Bump. Orion wins.

Originally posted by carver9
http://m.imgur.com/0FYNSIo?r

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's it? This is pretty much the only scan you have shown to support the idea that WW's FF can stand up to the Astro-Force from a bloodlusted (i.e. normal, lol) Orion. The only one. Deary me.

DarkSaint, from what I remember, it might actually have turned out to be Circe with amnesia and thinking she was(and looking like) one of Diana's friends and had protected them. So, that's quite possibly carter getting it wrong, or just straight-up lying.

Wonder Woman wins.

Alpha Power is no match for the Power of the Vagina.

Originally posted by carver9
Wonder Woman wins.

In your wet dreams. In reality, she loses almost as much as she does to Superman, who gets a hilariously high majority over WW.

She is faster, better strength fts, better durability fts and better average equipment. She has the overall advantage with him on everything. Wonder Woman 9/10.

Originally posted by carver9
She is faster, better strength fts, better durability fts and better average equipment. She has the overall advantage with him on everything. Wonder Woman 9/10.

Then let's see these great combat speed feats. Yes, she's stronger yet could barely restrain Superman despite a ****ton of help AFTER Orion had gone toe-to-toe with Superman. Why do I have a feeling you're going to bring-up Brainiac-Doomsday toying with WW like it's a feat for WW? lol No, she doesn't. She doesn't have any real advantages except she can fly on her own and maybe her cleavage will distract.

Gonna give us some lies to "back" your case?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Bump. Orion wins.





DarkSaint, from what I remember, it might actually have turned out to be Circe with amnesia and thinking she was(and looking like) one of Diana's friends and had protected them. So, that's quite possibly carter getting it wrong, or just straight-up lying.

Carver, is this true?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Then let's see these great combat speed feats. Yes, she's stronger yet could barely restrain Superman despite a ****ton of help AFTER Orion had gone toe-to-toe with Superman. Why do I have a feeling you're going to bring-up Brainiac-Doomsday toying with WW like it's a feat for WW? lol No, she doesn't. She doesn't have any real advantages except she can fly on her own and maybe her cleavage will distract.

Gonna give us some lies to "back" your case?

Are you ready to do a strength, speed, and durability comparison between the two? Hello!!!!

Originally posted by carver9
Hello!!!!

Originally posted by carver9
Don't do that.

@Delta, you don't think that it would be somewhat of a competitive match-up between these two? That was my first thought when reading the OP. Diana is one hell of a combatant, and I can't see anyone short of a low-high level Trans roll-stomping on her.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver, is this true?

Of course he won't reply to this. I did a bit of digging, I remembered correctly about Circe was among Diana's friends. In fact, there's nothing indicating that the force field they're theorizing about is the one carter's trying to argue. Diana is surprised that they think she has a force field that.....HEALS her friends.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_100-PG07.jpg

As for it being Circe.....

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_100-PG08.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_100-PG09.jpghttp://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_100-PG10.jpghttp://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_100-PG11.jpghttp://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_100-PG12.jpg

I skimmed through the next few issues, so if they brought this up I didn't see, but couldn't find anything about this, but regardless it's questionable, Diana was even skeptical of it. The scan carter brought up was from WONDER WOMAN #99, my scans are from #100. And #100 was William Messner-Loebs' final issue before John Byrne took over. This was 1995.

Wasn't Wonder Woman getting that force field some time after 2000?

Carver, hello!!

Originally posted by carver9
Are you ready to do a strength, speed, and durability comparison between the two? Hello!!!!

I already posted him fighting Superman right before Superman proved to be far stronger than her. Are you going to post an actual speed showing as I outlined earlier? I gave something for Orion. Nobody gave a single actual example that I requested, I doubt you're going to change anything.

Also, I'm not surprised you didn't comment on the force field thing.

Originally posted by Stoic
@Delta, you don't think that it would be somewhat of a competitive match-up between these two? That was my first thought when reading the OP. Diana is one hell of a combatant, and I can't see anyone short of a low-high level Trans roll-stomping on her.

In a comic, because she's got A-List treatment and he's not treated the best, I'd see it as much more competitive. But I definitely put him a good deal above her. hahah I've posted an example why earlier in this topic.

Shame on you, Carver!!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver, is this true?

Carver?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver?

You've got a better chance of watching Big Foot and Elvis join an orgy with leprechauns in a giant chariot pulled by unicorns as porn stars pass out tacos and bacon cheeseburgers.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver?

I don't respond to haters.

I hate liars and stubborn fools, this is true. Especially if you tried to mislead me and lied to me with scans.

I AM giving you a chance to explain it, perhaps Delta is the one lying to me, so go at it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I hate liars and stubborn fools, this is true. Especially if you tried to mislead me and lied to me with scans.

I AM giving you a chance to explain it, perhaps Delta is the one lying to me, so go at it.

https://bossymoksie.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/haterade.gif

They sell them at Walmart. 2 for 5.

I think you should put me on ignore. It wouldn't hurt me at all.

Haha. Like I said, maybe Delta was the one lying to me. I give you a chance, before I accused you of lying, and this is how you run away?

I mean, if you were wrong, man up and admit it. If you were lying, then continue to be all faux angry lol.

Oh carver, failed once more

Doesn't Wonder Woman require crossing her bracelets for the force field? She certainly is unable to here.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_77-PG17.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_77-PG18.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_77-PG19.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_WONDER-WOMAN_V2_77-PG20.jpg

I mean I could be wrong, but I thought her getting that force field upgrade came after 2000, and carter's scan comes from WONDER WOMAN #99, which is from 1995, and the black hole instance referenced(and that I showed) is from WONDER WOMAN #77, which came out in 1993.

Plus, why is carter making such a big deal out of it? The black hole's pull isn't even strong enough to rip out the "No Loitering" sing that Diana lassoed to anchor herself and them not get sucked in. And we know how important collateral damage is to carter.

Originally posted by carver9
Same version of Hulk was throwing punches so powerful that Reed himself thought the world was going to end. The shockwaves from said punches was pushing the hero's back...hell, it was sending some flying.

This version of Hulk also walked through an uppercut from Onslaught (a weaker version of Onslaught dropped Juggernaut in a single blow).

Carter, Hello!!

Orion wins.

Orion wins

WW wins. She's faster, more skilled, bracelets to block and redirect the astroforce

Originally posted by h1a8
WW wins. She's faster, more skilled, bracelets to block and redirect the astroforce

Show her fighting at super speed like Orion has. Nope, she's not more skilled. Bracelets have failed against Amazo and IIRC Ultraman. Orion wins. Provide scans or concede defeat.

Also, by your own argument, skill won't compensate for a strength advantage many times over.

Originally posted by h1a8
Skill can't overcome someone who is many times stronger than you. You simply wouldn't be able to affect them well enough.

And--

Originally posted by Delta1938
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG14.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG15.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG16.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG17.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/SupermanVS/Heroes/Orion/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG18.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/RelativeStrength/Teams/SupermanRex/th_SUPERMAN_MOT13-PG19.jpg

--even if Wonder Woman was more skilled, by your own argument it will be irrelevant.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Show her fighting at super speed like Orion has. Nope, she's not more skilled. Bracelets have failed against Amazo and IIRC Ultraman. Orion wins. Provide scans or concede defeat.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Show her fighting at super speed like Orion has. Nope, she's not more skilled. Bracelets have failed against Amazo and IIRC Ultraman. Orion wins. Provide scans or concede defeat. She fights FAR FASTER than Orion. She casually blocks multiple beams of energy. So basically you are using one showing of Orion to represent his speed in this forum?

Her bracelets have never been broken in canon as far as I know. She has deflected the OE which has greater feats than the AF. She deflected the power of an entire pantheon.

She has shown great skill in MA billions of times. From pressure points to agility, to counter attack, to combos, to finesse techniques, etc. Post feats of Orion showing comparable skill.

Basically, please provide proof that Orion is faster, more skilled, and that her bracelets can't block the AF. Cause I'm thinking of reporting you for trolling.