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Fight takes place in an open field, fighters start off 50m from each other. Deadshot is armed with an M16 and a full clip, Cap has his shield.

Fighters have no knowledge of each other. All Deadshot was told was that Steve Rogers was some soldier who was tasked to kill his daughter. All Cap knows is that Floyd is a Hydra agent tasked to assassinate Bucky and Natasha.


Round 1: PIS and CIS are off
Round 2: PIS and CIS are on



Who wins?

PIS off: Cap blocks the first, maybe second salvo, then DS corrects and shoots him in the groin or legs.

Even if Cap turtles himself behind the shield, he's protected but immoble.

Cap's best bet is to toss the shield and hope he gets hit somewhere non lethal to him, as a single well placed hit from the shield will either KO or kill DS.

PIS on: Cap charges blocking his face/upperbody and DS just keeps shooting the shield and Cap then bonks him when he gets in range.

Cap wins

Originally posted by Robtard
PIS off: Cap blocks the first, maybe second salvo, then DS corrects and shoots him in the groin or legs.

Even if Cap turtles himself behind the shield, he's protected but immoble.

Cap's best bet is to toss the shield and hope he gets hit somewhere non lethal to him, as a single well placed hit from the shield will either KO or kill DS.

PIS on: Cap charges blocking his face/upperbody and DS just keeps shooting the shield and Cap then bonks him when he gets in range.



Agreed...

Cap wins. Robtard is a DC fanboy and LoM is a known mongoloid around these parts.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Cap wins. Robtard is a DC fanboy and LoM is a known mongoloid around these parts.

Robs posts are far more intelligently written than yours are...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Robs posts are far more intelligently written than yours are... Quit being asinine.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Quit being asinine.

The truth hurts....

Doesn't it?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Robs posts are far more intelligently written than yours are...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
The truth hurts....

Doesn't it?



It definitely hurts you while I'm fine. I've been dancing with the truth for years. You avoid it like you do a toothbrush.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

Originally posted by quanchi112
It definitely hurts you while I'm fine. I've been dancing with the truth for years. You avoid it like you do a toothbrush.

You are not fine...

The truth scorces your flesh like a holy symbol burns demons...

Deceit, lying, and trolling are the only thing you know how to do...

Your posts are litted with bad logic and nonsense....

You are a petty troll; always was, and will always be...

You just mad because Rob posts more intelligently than you do...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You are not fine...

The truth scorces your flesh like a holy symbol burns demons...

Deceit, lying, and trolling are the only thing you know how to do...

Your posts are litted with bad logic and nonsense....

You are a petty troll; always was, and will always be...

You just mad because Rob posts more intelligently than you do...

You are upset my legacy and my influence on this board are unmatched. Robtard won't even face me anymore.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are upset my legacy and my influence on this board are unmatched. Robtard won't even face me anymore.

Why should Rob waste time facing someone he is superior to?

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Why should Rob waste time facing someone he is superior to? Rob said he would never break before me. I told him it was a matter of time and they all fall. He fell big time.

DS has 2 seconds before Cap is on him. Someone who has proven to be a master at trajectory and has so many bullet blocking "feats", it's should just be part of his powerset. Whose fighting style is to charge at opponents with guns and to (succesfully) block their shots with his shield.

Cap is really good with that shield and has very impressive physical feats to go with it...

My gut tells me that this is not an optimal matchup for Deadshot; especially given the starting distance...

I honestly dont like Deadshot's chances here...

I honestly think Cap wins...

Cap fought better opponents who actually fought back..

SmithShot won't be shooting Cap, even if he does, Cap was shown to get back up and take care of business

This theory that somehow Cap can just block these shots while running forward and take no direct serious hits is a bit off for me. It would be tough to run and not get hit with a few shots. His shield can only block so much. Nor would he even want to peak his head around the shield. For all I know, in that situation, deadshot would simply spray in a coordinated way over and over. Cap wouldn't be able to block them all.

That said, I can also see how Cap, especially with CIS on would simply be aided by DS shotting mindlessly at his shield for no apparent reason. Even without, I could see a situation where Cap would get somewhat lucky but mostly skilled and block all fire and close the distance.

However, to think Cap can just do this and not take shots is kind of silly. He's going to get hit, and likely a few times. Can he tank through that to beat that ass... Not sure

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This theory that somehow Cap can just block these shots while running forward and take no direct serious hits is a bit off for me. It would be tough to run and not get hit with a few shots. His shield can only block so much. Nor would he even want to peak his head around the shield. For all I know, in that situation, deadshot would simply spray in a coordinated way over and over. Cap wouldn't be able to block them all.

That said, I can also see how Cap, especially with CIS on would simply be aided by DS shotting mindlessly at his shield for no apparent reason. Even without, I could see a situation where Cap would get somewhat lucky but mostly skilled and block all fire and close the distance.

However, to think Cap can just do this and not take shots is kind of silly. He's going to get hit, and likely a few times. Can he tank through that to beat that ass... Not sure

Havent even seen SS but this sounds pretty legit.

Once Cap gets shot several times in the legs he's not going to be able to do much of anything.

First round could go either way IMO. If Cap immediately throws his shield when the match starts, and then afterwards takes avoiding action (as in shield toss, then dive to the side or something), he could possibly take it. But if he simply charges in, he's likely going to get shot multiple times.

With PIS/CIS on, all Deadshot's bullets ping harmlessly off the center of Cap's shield.

I think the very best Cap could hope for is mutual destruction, He could get lucky and fling his shield and hit Deadshot and kill him, but that will also leave him as an open target to be shot.

I don't think he'd actually need luck to be able to hit DS with his shield. Cap's own aim is borderline cartoony. That shield toss at 0:26 quite literally defies the laws of physics.

yEt5GyUiNO0

Yeah, Cap is a master of spacial geometry, some of the throws where the shield bounces off multiple points to return back are masterclass and he does it on the fly.

Cap wins and even LoM has buckled under the pressure.

yeah definitely, Cap can hide between something and use his shield to take out SmithShot...

Cap is also very inteligent, unlike SmithShot

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This theory that somehow Cap can just block these shots while running forward and take no direct serious hits is a bit off for me. It would be tough to run and not get hit with a few shots. His shield can only block so much. Nor would he even want to peak his head around the shield. For all I know, in that situation, deadshot would simply spray in a coordinated way over and over. Cap wouldn't be able to block them all.

That said, I can also see how Cap, especially with CIS on would simply be aided by DS shotting mindlessly at his shield for no apparent reason. Even without, I could see a situation where Cap would get somewhat lucky but mostly skilled and block all fire and close the distance.

However, to think Cap can just do this and not take shots is kind of silly. He's going to get hit, and likely a few times. Can he tank through that to beat that ass... Not sure So Kt doesn't think intelligence factors in here at all but in the other thread he acts like it means something. Hypocrisy.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
yeah definitely, Cap can hide between something and use his shield to take out SmithShot...

Cap is also very inteligent, unlike SmithShot

Only there isn't anything to hide behind at all. I believe it's an open field. To say nothing of the fact that you'd never want to stay in one place with DS shooting at you. Let alone with debris on the battlefield. He'd bounce shit off so much stuff Cap would be toast

Originally posted by quanchi112
Cap wins and even LoM has buckled under the pressure.

Unlike you, I wont lie or be dishonest when a character I like loses a fight...

I'll admit it and be done with it...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Unlike you, I wont lie or be dishonest when a character I like loses a fight...

I'll admit it and be done with it... So you broke. You are so damn weak. This shows you're a known bullshitter and a self admitted troll.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only there isn't anything to hide behind at all. I believe it's an open field. To say nothing of the fact that you'd never want to stay in one place with DS shooting at you. Let alone with debris on the battlefield. He'd bounce shit off so much stuff Cap would be toast

lmao.. even if an open field, Cap still wins... SmithShot went up against people/zombies that just stood there so the Suicide Squad could kill them hahahahahahaha... Cap on the other hand has shown through 5 films to be on the move. To use his shield so nothing can touch him... Unless bullets get through the shield which is highly unlikely , there is nothing SmithShot can do here except take an ass whompin'

Cap stomps. Kt once again embarrasses himself for all to see.

Deadshot easily. Can can't guard his entire body.

The first time I ever sparred someone with a sidesword and buckler combination, I couldn't take the buckler seriously. It's a shield about the size of a dinner plate and I couldn't see how something so small could provide effective defense.

But I was surprised at how much it can actually cover depending on body position, stance, profile and line of sight. If the fencer knew what he was doing, he could actually hide his entire upper body behind the buckler. It wasn't so much trying to cover your body with the shield as it was covering your opponent's line of sight.

Anyway, at 50m Cap will be a small-ish target. If he runs with torso tilted forward and shield extended in front of his body, he can effectively hide his entire body behind the shield with probably only his feet exposed. His thighs, knees and shins could literally be covered.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The first time I ever sparred someone with a sidesword and buckler combination, I couldn't take the buckler seriously. It's a shield about the size of a dinner plate and I couldn't see how something so small could provide effective defense.

But I was surprised at how much it can actually cover depending on body position, stance, profile and line of sight. If the fencer knew what he was doing, he could actually hide his entire upper body behind the buckler. It wasn't so much trying to cover your body with the shield as it was covering your opponent's line of sight.

Anyway, at 50m Cap will be a small-ish target. If he runs with torso tilted forward and shield extended in front of his body, he can effectively hide his entire body behind the shield with probably only his feet exposed. His thighs, knees and shins could literally be covered.
1. His feet would be shot off instantly
2. I doubt anyone can run tilted foward (they would fall forward) without some gravity manipulation. That's like doing Michael Jackson's impossible forward lean.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. His feet would be shot off instantly
2. I doubt anyone can run tilted foward (they would fall forward) without some gravity manipulation. That's like doing Michael Jackson's impossible forward lean.

1. No proof of DS shooting such small and fast moving targets as running feet
2. You only need to tilt your torso forward, not your entire body. If you can find something the size of Cap's shield you can try it.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. His feet would be shot off instantly
2. I doubt anyone can run tilted foward (they would fall forward) without some gravity manipulation. That's like doing Michael Jackson's impossible forward lean.


Tell me... How many moving targets THAT ARE OF CAP'S NATURE that Deadshot took out in Suicide Squad???

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
Tell me... How many moving targets THAT ARE OF CAP'S NATURE that Deadshot took out in Suicide Squad???


I don't even remember DS taking out any moving targets that weren't either walking straight at him or were oblivious to his presence.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't even remember DS taking out any moving targets that weren't either walking straight at him or were oblivious to his presence.


I agree

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. No proof of DS shooting such small and fast moving targets as running feet
2. You only need to tilt your torso forward, not your entire body. If you can find something the size of Cap's shield you can try it.

1. DS hit every moving single target he shot at. And it was a lot.
2. We should definitely suspend belief and assume that DS can hit moving objects traveling under 60mph (any decent real sniper can do).
3. Caps knees on down will not be covered. They will not be moving laterally to DS but forward mostly. DS blows a knee cap off instantly.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. DS hit every moving single target he shot at. And it was a lot.
2. We should definitely suspend belief and assume that DS can hit moving objects traveling under 60mph (any decent real sniper can do).
3. Caps knees on down will not be covered. They will not be moving laterally to DS but forward mostly. DS blows a knee cap off instantly.

1. And none of them were fast moving targets.
2. Why should we make that assumption? DS isn't setup as a sniper in this scenario. He doesn't get prep (which any real sniper would have) and he doesn't have a sniping rifle.
3. Because Cap is just going to run straight for DS right?

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. And none of them were fast moving targets.
2. Why should we make that assumption? DS isn't setup as a sniper in this scenario. He doesn't get prep (which any real sniper would have) and he doesn't have a sniping rifle.
3. Because Cap is just going to run straight for DS right?

1. Cap won't be moving much faster.
2. Because he has a magical power that is able to hit whatever he shoots at. He can shoot better than a sniper with a simple handgun. It would be pretty dumb to shoot like he does and not be able to hit a target traveling under 60 mph. Especially one that's traveling forward TOWARDS YOU.
3. If he doesn't then where is he going to run? Sideways?

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Cap won't be moving much faster.
2. Because he has a magical power that is able to hit whatever he shoots at. He can shoot better than a sniper with a simple handgun. It would be pretty dumb to shoot like he does and not be able to hit a target traveling under 60 mph. Especially one that's traveling forward TOWARDS YOU.
3. If he doesn't then where is he going to run? Sideways?

1. Name a scene in SS where DS shot someone moving near as fast as Cap
2. DS has magical powers now? GTFO. If that's the case then Cap also has the power to either block every shot coming his way or never get hit in any critical area.
3. Strafing, zig zag manuevers, acrobatics... you know, stuff that any person with a bit of common sense would probably do when under fire.

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. Name a scene in SS where DS shot someone moving near as fast as Cap
2. DS has magical powers now? GTFO. If that's the case then Cap also has the power to either block every shot coming his way or never get hit in any critical area.
3. Strafing, zig zag manuevers, acrobatics... you know, stuff that any person with a bit of common sense would probably do when under fire.

1. That's irrelevant. Cap doesn't move much faster than an athletic human. At top running speed I give him between 30-50mph. Within the first second, Cap should obtain less than 15mph.
Comic Cap is different. What's the fastest speed Cap obtained in the movies the first second from rest? In one second, Cap never shown he can even reach 15mph after before the first second of travel.

2. His ability is equivalent to magic since it's impossible to do what he can do in the real world. Every gun is different and isn't calibrated 100% the same. Wind changes constantly. Bullets are not 100% the same. Etc. Yet he is able to shoot every bullet in the same hole.

3. To zigzag Cap will have to slow down and stop before changing directions. He would be traveling at super slow speeds for a significant amount of time when changing directions. Also, as I have said it takes time for Cap to build up speed from a standstill (or after changing direction).

Originally posted by h1a8
1. That's irrelevant. Cap doesn't move much faster than an athletic human. At top running speed I give him between 30-50mph. Within the first second, Cap should obtain less than 15mph.
Comic Cap is different. What's the fastest speed Cap obtained in the movies the first second from rest? In one second, Cap never shown he can even reach 15mph after before the first second of travel.

2. His ability is equivalent to magic since it's impossible to do what he can do in the real world. Every gun is different and isn't calibrated 100% the same. Wind changes constantly. Bullets are not 100% the same. Etc. Yet he is able to shoot every bullet in the same hole.

3. To zigzag Cap will have to slow down and stop before changing directions. He would be traveling at super slow speeds for a significant amount of time when changing directions. Also, as I have said it takes time for Cap to build up speed from a standstill (or after changing direction).

1. Name me a scene where DS shoots a target moving at speeds that an athletic human runs.

2. So you're explanation on how DS wins this fight is that he's magical. Gotcha. Of course, you think DS is magical but Cap isn't. Double gotcha.

3. You realize that 50m isn't that long a distance right? Also, please watch TWS to see just how fast Cap moves.

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. Name me a scene where DS shoots a target moving at speeds that an athletic human runs.

2. So you're explanation on how DS wins this fight is that he's magical. Gotcha. Of course, you think DS is magical but Cap isn't. Double gotcha.

3. You realize that 50m isn't that long a distance right? Also, please watch TWS to see just how fast Cap moves.

1. Don't have to. He can do it easily.
2. Equivalent to magical since he doesn't miss.
3. 50m is a long distance from a standstill. The moment the bell rings Cap wouldn't generate even 10mph. I saw the movie plenty of times. Nowhere did Cap obtain speeds higher than 10mph before the first second. If you disagree then refer me to a scene where he did.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Don't have to. He can do it easily.
2. Equivalent to magical since he doesn't miss.
3. 50m is a long distance from a standstill. The moment the bell rings Cap wouldn't generate even 10mph. I saw the movie plenty of times. Nowhere did Cap obtain speeds higher than 10mph before the first second. If you disagree then refer me to a scene where he did.

1. So you're giving DS abilities that are not supported by feats. No limits fallacy much?

2. Well if you want to play that game... Cap wins this because his magic power is that he never dies from a gunshot

3. Fastest records put 50m run at 5.5 seconds. Cap is quite a ways above a top athlete so he can probably cover that in about seconds. Now using your logic for your point #1, I don't have to prove that Cap can cover that distance within 2 seconds because he can do it easily (see how stupid your reasoning is?).

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. So you're giving DS abilities that are not supported by feats. No limits fallacy much?

2. Well if you want to play that game... Cap wins this because his magic power is that he never dies from a gunshot

3. Fastest records put 50m run at 5.5 seconds. Cap is quite a ways above a top athlete so he can probably cover that in about seconds. Now using your logic for your point #1, I don't have to prove that Cap can cover that distance within 2 seconds because he can do it easily (see how stupid your reasoning is?).

1. Actually the opposite. His ability gives him access to other things. It's assumed he can do (shoot) what normal trained humans can do but better (not worse).

2. Lol, sure. DS doesn't miss. He's 100% accurate (not even a mm off). This is impossible to do. With that type of ability he kills anything that can be killed with a gun.

3. Those creatures were actually moving faster than normal humans. They were aim dodging a hail of machine gun fire and leaping over cars, etc. DS didn't start shooting until after they built up full speed. Cap won't be able to generate even 10 mph within the first second after the bell. It takes time to accelerate from a standstill. If cap was already at full speed before DS started firing then he still gets hit easily. If cap runs foward then speed is irrelevant as its a still target. If cap zigzags then he must slowdown to 0 laterally velocity when he changes directions. Movie cap isn't that fast.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Actually the opposite. His ability gives him access to other things. It's assumed he can do (shoot) what normal trained humans can do but better (not worse).

2. Lol, sure. DS doesn't miss. He's 100% accurate (not even a mm off). This is impossible to do. With that type of ability he kills anything that can be killed with a gun.

3. Those creatures were actually moving faster than normal humans. They were aim dodging a hail of machine gun fire and leaping over cars, etc. DS didn't start shooting until after they built up full speed. Cap won't be able to generate even 10 mph within the first second after the bell. It takes time to accelerate from a standstill. If cap was already at full speed before DS started firing then he still gets hit easily. If cap runs foward then speed is irrelevant as its a still target. If cap zigzags then he must slowdown to 0 laterally velocity when he changes directions. Movie cap isn't that fast.

1. Normal trained humans don't have 100% accuracy when shooting at 100m, especially not at a moving target that's firing back at them. DS doesn't have any feats to prove that he can do so either. So you giving him this ability like it's a fact without no feats to back it up is a no limits fallacy. I might as well say that no bullets can kill Cap because he was never seriously injured by getting shot.

2. Like I said, if you're going with the whole DS never misses regardless of what his opponent does (which was already proved false during his fight with Batman) then I could just as well say that Cap can't be killed with bullets since he was never seriously injured by guns.

3. Don't think you know what aim dodging is. Jumping over cars to get across to your opponents isn't aim dodging. The fact that those things even wanted to close the distance to melee range when they had the numbers and had firearms shows you how little they were concerned about getting hit.

DS is an incredible marksman (almost unreal) but he didn't seem that fast on the draw. I've seen faster movie feats. Cap has a lot of experience fighting people with guns, like a lot. He's shown that he's more than capable to block and stay mobile. DS can definitely get a leg/foot shot in but that isn't enough to put him down. He's tanked a lot more than just bullets. Cap isn't gonna let vital areas get hit. DS has a chance to win but more often than not, Cap will defeat DS.

Originally posted by HellRider
DS is an incredible marksman (almost unreal) but he didn't seem that fast on the draw. I've seen faster movie feats. Cap has a lot of experience fighting people with guns, like a lot. He's shown that he's more than capable to block and stay mobile. DS can definitely get a leg/foot shot in but that isn't enough to put him down. He's tanked a lot more than just bullets. Cap isn't gonna let vital areas get hit. DS has a chance to win but more often than not, Cap will defeat DS.

He shoot cap in the foot or leg then it's over. DS can point and shoot in 0.3 or less of a second. When he was shooting zombies he shot to the right and in. 3 of a second move the gun left about 2-3 feet and shot again.
He was zigzaging the zombies very quickly.
Cap isn't very fast. He can move very far in 1 second. He can't do much in 1 second. This is a stomp.

LMMFAO @Cap not being very fast


hahahahahahhahha

Cap wins. 50 meters is too short. Once captain manages to get close Dead shot loses. And he can and will easily. Cap shield is can cover most of dead shot's bullets. Should dead shoot still manage to hit him, cap is fine. Captain America's suit is bullet and fire proof if in case you didn't know. Still! Should he get a scratch (hit). Cap got super healing. Deadshot is Dead!

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
LMMFAO @Cap not being very fast


hahahahahahhahha

He's not. How far do you think movie Cap can travel in THE FIRST HALF of a second FROM REST?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Cap wins. 50 meters is too short. Once captain manages to get close Dead shot loses. And he can and will easily. Cap shield is can cover most of dead shot's bullets. Should dead shoot still manage to hit him, cap is fine. Captain America's suit is bullet and fire proof if in case you didn't know. Still! Should he get a scratch (hit). Cap got super healing. Deadshot is Dead! Cap will not get close. He will be shot right after the bell rings. Instantly! Cap's shield can't cover his legs or feet. Caps legs and feet aren't bulletproof, only his torso. And hitting the same dent over and over will make a bullets penetrate through bulletproof material (as shown in the movie).

Originally posted by h1a8
Cap will not get close. He will be shot right after the bell rings. Instantly! Cap's shield can't cover his legs or feet. Caps legs and feet aren't bulletproof, only his torso. And hitting the same dent over and over will make a bullets penetrate through bulletproof material (as shown in the movie).

Yeah sure, because DS has so many feats shooting legs off targets that move as fast and as agile as Cap and carry a shield.

I mean, what are you basing this off of? DS never made the kind of shot you're describing. Are you giving DS no limits fallacy?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah sure, because DS has so many feats shooting legs off targets that move as fast and as agile as Cap and carry a shield.

I mean, what are you basing this off of? DS never made the kind of shot you're describing. Are you giving DS no limits fallacy?

Do you like how h1 claims that Cap, whose casual jog is faster than the current fastest person on the planet "isn't that fast"?

Originally posted by h1a8
He's not. How far do you think movie Cap can travel in THE FIRST HALF of a second FROM REST?

very fast.. do you even know what a movie is??? did you even watch the movies? first film saw him run fast chasing the hydra agent seconds after emerging from the chamber after receiving the SuperSoldier formula, then we see Cap dive and swim into the ocean w/o the benefit of an oxygen tank and punch through the mini sub the hydra agent had....Winter Soldier shows us the opening where Steve tells Sam "On your left" as he keeps on running past him.. minutes later we see Cap on the boat running fast throwing his shield and taking out the bad guys...

You see WE HAVE ACTUAL FEATS OF CAPS SPEED.. We have been shown Cap putting up his shield so nothing touches him...

but please continue to be in denial of these facts


Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah sure, because DS has so many feats shooting legs off targets that move as fast and as agile as Cap and carry a shield.

I mean, what are you basing this off of? DS never made the kind of shot you're describing. Are you giving DS no limits fallacy?


Maybe we should give Cap feats he wasn't shown using as well

Originally posted by h1a8
Cap will not get close. He will be shot right after the bell rings. Instantly! Cap's shield can't cover his legs or feet. Caps legs and feet aren't bulletproof, only his torso. And hitting the same dent over and over will make a bullets penetrate through bulletproof material (as shown in the movie).

Dead shot will have to shoot at moving feet buddie. I doubt he hits. He is running, he will barely have chance to see them. Still should he hit. Cap got regeneration, and his suit is bullet proof if am not mistaken. Am sure cap will be able to get close yo deadshot, he is dead then.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah sure, because DS has so many feats shooting legs off targets that move as fast and as agile as Cap and carry a shield.

I mean, what are you basing this off of? DS never made the kind of shot you're describing. Are you giving DS no limits fallacy? movie cap can't move his legs very fast from a dead start. This is because he has no feats of doing so. You can't use comic caps feats. Movie cap starts at the speed of a normal human (within the first second after the bell).

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Dead shot will have to shoot at moving feet buddie. I doubt he hits. He is running, he will barely have chance to see them. Still should he hit. Cap got regeneration, and his suit is bullet proof if am not mistaken. Am sure cap will be able to get close yo deadshot, he is dead then.

Cap's feet will not be moving fast the first second. He needs a few seconds to gain enough speed to be faster than a human.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
very fast.. do you even know what a movie is??? did you even watch the movies? first film saw him run fast chasing the hydra agent seconds after emerging from the chamber after receiving the SuperSoldier formula, then we see Cap dive and swim into the ocean w/o the benefit of an oxygen tank and punch through the mini sub the hydra agent had....Winter Soldier shows us the opening where Steve tells Sam "On your left" as he keeps on running past him.. minutes later we see Cap on the boat running fast throwing his shield and taking out the bad guys...

You see WE HAVE ACTUAL FEATS OF CAPS SPEED.. We have been shown Cap putting up his shield so nothing touches him...

but please continue to be in denial of these facts





Maybe we should give Cap feats he wasn't shown using as well

Yet cap still isn't very fast. I saw all the movies. DS could easily hit him instantly. Even if cap can reach 50mph then this is still very slow.

My argument is that Cap will not get past 10mph before the first second after the bell. DS will shoot him the first second after the bell (before he gains speed).

Originally posted by Silent Master
Do you like how h1 claims that Cap, whose casual jog is faster than the current fastest person on the planet "isn't that fast"? Cap, before the first second after the bell would not obtain a speed of more than 10mph. If you disagree then post a scene where he did.

Even if DS gets off the first shot, it's more likely that Cap will block it with his shield. by the time DS gets the idea to shoot at Cap's feet, he'll already he at full speed.

This fight isn't nearly as one-sided as you think it is.

Originally posted by h1a8
movie cap can't move his legs very fast from a dead start. This is because he has no feats of doing so. You can't use comic caps feats. Movie cap starts at the speed of a normal human (within the first second after the bell).

Guess you missed that part in the first Cap movie where he ran after a car. Or in Civil War where he dropped off a bridge and started running and keeping up with cars. Or in Winter Soldier where Cap can jump pretty high distances easily. That kind of leg power means he can propel himself forward pretty fast.

I just provided a whole bunch of feats. So could you now show me feats of DS shooting fast moving targets that are actively trying to block or dodge his gunfire? Or even better, how bout a feat of DS shooting someone's feet? Because I sure can give you multiple feats of Cap blocking gunfire.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Guess you missed that part in the first Cap movie where he ran after a car. Or in Civil War where he dropped off a bridge and started running and keeping up with cars. Or in Winter Soldier where Cap can jump pretty high distances easily. That kind of leg power means he can propel himself forward pretty fast.

I just provided a whole bunch of feats. So could you now show me feats of DS shooting fast moving targets that are actively trying to block or dodge his gunfire? Or even better, how bout a feat of DS shooting someone's feet? Because I sure can give you multiple feats of Cap blocking gunfire.

You basically ignored the fact I said speed before the first second elaspes. You gave irrelevant feats of cap already achieving full speed (which took longer than a second).
No thing can go from 0 to 50mph instantly. It takes time. Time to bend the knees (acceleration of gravity), time to push off, etc. But Silent gave a stronger argument.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Even if DS gets off the first shot, it's more likely that Cap will block it with his shield. by the time DS gets the idea to shoot at Cap's feet, he'll already he at full speed.

This fight isn't nearly as one-sided as you think it is. Good analysis. What if DS get off multiple shots instantly? Cap doesn't have the reflexes to react to bullets in the air (not movie Cap). Maybe he does aim for Cap's head at first and Cap just gets the shield up in time. Then instantly chooses areas not covered by the shield. It's not one sided as I thought. Cap does have a chance.

Originally posted by h1a8
You basically ignored the fact I said speed before the first second elaspes. You gave irrelevant feats of cap already achieving full speed (which took longer than a second).
No thing can go from 0 to 50mph instantly. It takes time. Time to bend the knees (acceleration of gravity), time to push off, etc. But Silent gave a stronger argument.

Good analysis. What if DS get off multiple shots instantly? Cap doesn't have the reflexes to react to bullets in the air (not movie Cap). Maybe he does aim for Cap's head at first and Cap just gets the shield up in time. Then instantly chooses areas not covered by the shield. It's not one sided as I thought. Cap does have a chance.

Why do you go for top speed? Why 50 mph? You're talking about foot speed right? Martial artists can deploy kicks with velocities as fast as 200 km/h. Cap isn't kicking here (yet) but I'm pretty sure his legs will be moving far faster than 50 mph. He doesn't need to actually be traveling at 50 mph for his legs to be moving that fast.

And in the end, Cap has multiple feats of blocking multiple gunfire. DS has ZERO feats of shooting fast moving feet.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Why do you go for top speed? Why 50 mph? You're talking about foot speed right? Martial artists can deploy kicks with velocities as fast as 200 km/h. Cap isn't kicking here (yet) but I'm pretty sure his legs will be moving far faster than 50 mph. He doesn't need to actually be traveling at 50 mph for his legs to be moving that fast.

And in the end, Cap has multiple feats of blocking multiple gunfire. DS has ZERO feats of shooting fast moving feet.

yea he needs to go rewatch the movies...

Originally posted by h1a8
You basically ignored the fact I said speed before the first second elaspes. You gave irrelevant feats of cap already achieving full speed (which took longer than a second).
No thing can go from 0 to 50mph instantly. It takes time. Time to bend the knees (acceleration of gravity), time to push off, etc. But Silent gave a stronger argument.

Good analysis. What if DS get off multiple shots instantly? Cap doesn't have the reflexes to react to bullets in the air (not movie Cap). Maybe he does aim for Cap's head at first and Cap just gets the shield up in time. Then instantly chooses areas not covered by the shield. It's not one sided as I thought. Cap does have a chance.

They don't know each other. The first thing DS will do is take out the gun. Once Cap notices this, he will draw his shield. DSo doesn't know the shield is Bullet proof, I guess he will try a few shots to the shield. When he finally realizes he has to change target, cap will already be running. DS dies.

Even if DS fires several shots at once the shield is big enough to block them, it's not like DS is going to start the fight shooting at both Cap's head and feet.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Even if DS fires several shots at once the shield is big enough to block them, it's not like DS is going to start the fight shooting at both Cap's head and feet.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Why do you go for top speed? Why 50 mph? You're talking about foot speed right? Martial artists can deploy kicks with velocities as fast as 200 km/h. Cap isn't kicking here (yet) but I'm pretty sure his legs will be moving far faster than 50 mph. He doesn't need to actually be traveling at 50 mph for his legs to be moving that fast.

And in the end, Cap has multiple feats of blocking multiple gunfire. DS has ZERO feats of shooting fast moving feet.

Starting from rest, Cap has to bend at the knee and push off the ground to propel himself forward. I'm referring to the instant right after the bell. Cap will be moving slowly. Provide a clip or refer to a scene where Cap moves his legs very fast before the first second elapses.

Also, the knees and waist will be exposed, making the argument of fast moving feet moot.

I just looked at scenes from winter soldier and civil war. As Cap is running his entire waist and below is exposed. The shield barely covers his head and chest.


Originally posted by Silent Master
Even if DS fires several shots at once the shield is big enough to block them, it's not like DS is going to start the fight shooting at both Cap's head and feet. actually Cap's entire waistline and below will be exposed. I just looked at a few scenes from winter soldier and civil war.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
They don't know each other. The first thing DS will do is take out the gun. Once Cap notices this, he will draw his shield. DSo doesn't know the shield is Bullet proof, I guess he will try a few shots to the shield. When he finally realizes he has to change target, cap will already be running. DS dies. it is understood that all shields are bulletproof. Forum rules state that each character has basic general knowledge of their opponent. That means he knows what Cap can do and his shield.

Provide clips of DS draw shooting a fast moving target's feet (unlike a moving target's head/body, feet are in constant motion) within 2-3 seconds. Or any showing that would indicate that he is capable of such.

Cap has aim blocked WS when they fought as WS was attemlting to shoot his other limbs to bypass his shield by shooting at his legs.

What point are you trying to make with that comment?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Provide clips of DS draw shooting a fast moving target's feet (unlike a moving target's head/body, feet are in constant motion) within 2-3 seconds. Or any showing that would indicate that he is capable of such.

Cap has aim blocked WS when they fought as WS was attemlting to shoot his other limbs to bypass his shield by shooting at his legs.

Cap's entire waistline and below will be exposed (part of his belly too). The shield barely covers the head and chest.

Cap can't aim block if he cannot see the aim. Also, DS can target and fire in less than 0.3 of a second.

Originally posted by h1a8
Cap's entire waistline and below will be exposed (part of his belly too). The shield barely covers the head and chest.

Cap can't aim block if he cannot see the aim. Also, DS can target and fire in less than 0.3 of a second.

Post clips of this 0.3 second draw and shoot? And WS was weaving his shots (going as far as spinning to make it hard for Cap to see where the pistol will be coming from) as he aimed for Cap's legs. Still blocked.

And why wouldn't he be able to see it? 50 meters isn't that far. And the shield cover his whole upper body if he packs himself in it and angles it right. Pls watch his highway fight with WS and the helicarrier fight for the aim blocking.

When has Deadshot ever aimed for 2 different places on a single target?

Originally posted by h1a8
Starting from rest, Cap has to bend at the knee and push off the ground to propel himself forward. I'm referring to the instant right after the bell. Cap will be moving slowly. Provide a clip or refer to a scene where Cap moves his legs very fast before the first second elapses.

Also, the knees and waist will be exposed, making the argument of fast moving feet moot.

I just looked at scenes from winter soldier and civil war. As Cap is running his entire waist and below is exposed. The shield barely covers his head and chest.


actually Cap's entire waistline and below will be exposed. I just looked at a few scenes from winter soldier and civil war.

it is understood that all shields are bulletproof. Forum rules state that each character has basic general knowledge of their opponent. That means he knows what Cap can do and his shield.

At the start of the bell, DS needs to reach down and draw his gun before he is able to point it at Cap and shoot. By that time Cap would already have been moving. Or did you think that DS starts this match with gun already aimed?

Also the way how shields work in terms of line of sight and also bullet trajectory, Cap can easily cover himself to his knees given proper angle. You need to try it to understand it.

I don't need to prove that Cap can move his feet at 50mph because regular humans can move their feet far faster than that. Also, why do you have this fixation about 50mph?

I'm still waiting for you to show feats of DS shooting fast moving targets in their feet (or even just their legs)

maybe i was asleep but Deadshot never ever shot at people's feet/legs....

Originally posted by h1a8
2. His ability is equivalent to magic since it's impossible to do what he can do in the real world.

By this logic Batman is magic. Peak human means something different in fiction than it does in real life. People who are supposed to be insanely skilled but still human..do things that no amount of mere skill would allow.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Post clips of this 0.3 second draw and shoot? And WS was weaving his shots (going as far as spinning to make it hard for Cap to see where the pistol will be coming from) as he aimed for Cap's legs. Still blocked.

And why wouldn't he be able to see it? 50 meters isn't that far. And the shield cover his whole upper body if he packs himself in it and angles it right. Pls watch his highway fight with WS and the helicarrier fight for the aim blocking. when he was shooting zombies. He shot right and left (alternating, turning his torso) with 0.3 seconds or less in between. No, I can post plenty of scenes where cap is behind the shield and can't see shit. He's blocking bullets while moving forward. He won't pack himself in such a way where his waistline on down is not covered while moving forward because he never did it in the movies (assuming it is physically possible). His shield always covered his head, chest, and part of his belly, not his waistline or legs when he was on the move.

I just watched the scene you are referring to. They were up close (3ft apart). Each shot was like a punch attack. It takes deliberate and significant movement of the hands to aim for the legs from that close. From 50m away an inch difference in aim is the difference between a head shot and a leg shot. If DS can move a gun left to right (about 3ft) in less than 0.3 sec then he move it an inch even quicker.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
maybe i was asleep but Deadshot never ever shot at people's feet/legs.... DS is not going to shoot at the shield on purpose. If Cap blocks the first shot then DS aims at his legs.

Originally posted by FrothByte
At the start of the bell, DS needs to reach down and draw his gun before he is able to point it at Cap and shoot. By that time Cap would already have been moving. Or did you think that DS starts this match with gun already aimed?

Also the way how shields work in terms of line of sight and also bullet trajectory, Cap can easily cover himself to his knees given proper angle. You need to try it to understand it.

I don't need to prove that Cap can move his feet at 50mph because regular humans can move their feet far faster than that. Also, why do you have this fixation about 50mph?

I'm still waiting for you to show feats of DS shooting fast moving targets in their feet (or even just their legs)

The gun is already on his hand. He needs to just raise his hand and point.
Takes a fraction of a second to do. Cap can't cover himself to his knees because he didn't in the movies. When he was blocking bullets while on the move he ALWAYS had his waistline and complete legs exposed.

Caps entire legs and waist will be exposed. DS hits Cap within 2 seconds after the bell everytime.

Originally posted by Surtur
By this logic Batman is magic. Peak human means something different in fiction than it does in real life. People who are supposed to be insanely skilled but still human..do things that no amount of mere skill would allow. I said equivalent to magic while not being magic. That's his power. If batman's magical power is crazy fighting skill then so be it. It's about who wins with their magical abilities.

Originally posted by h1a8
DS is not going to shoot at the shield on purpose. If Cap blocks the first shot then DS aims at his legs.



The gun is already on his hand. He needs to just raise his hand and point.
Takes a fraction of a second to do. Cap can't cover himself to his knees because he didn't in the movies. When he was blocking bullets while on the move he ALWAYS had his waistline and complete legs exposed.

Caps entire legs and waist will be exposed. DS hits Cap within 2 seconds after the bell everytime.

There were multiple times in the movies where Cap's legs were exposed but he never got shot in the legs. Why? Because guess what, it's not easy to shoot someone with a shield in the legs. Especially not if he'smoving.

But hey, if DS has a feat where he shoots people in the legs then let's have it and maybe then you'd have a point.

Originally posted by h1a8
DS is not going to shoot at the shield on purpose. If Cap blocks the first shot then DS aims at his legs.




you are one funny dude.. please tell us when and where exactly did Deadshot fire at the zombies feet???? oh and yes he will shoot at the shield on purpose because Cap will have the shield up and ready to go

Originally posted by h1a8
when he was shooting zombies. He shot right and left (alternating, turning his torso) with 0.3 seconds or less in between. No, I can post plenty of scenes where cap is behind the shield and can't see shit. He's blocking bullets while moving forward. He won't pack himself in such a way where his waistline on down is not covered while moving forward because he never did it in the movies (assuming it is physically possible). His shield always covered his head, chest, and part of his belly, not his waistline or legs when he was on the move.

I just watched the scene you are referring to. They were up close (3ft apart). Each shot was like a punch attack. It takes deliberate and significant movement of the hands to aim for the legs from that close. From 50m away an inch difference in aim is the difference between a head shot and a leg shot. If DS can move a gun left to right (about 3ft) in less than 0.3 sec then he move it an inch even quicker.

Him being unable to see -sometimes- is irrelevant to the debate (it is purely speculatory that he can't see in this fight, and frankly a bit absurd). That is because we have primary evidence of him aim blocking his opponent as well as primary evidence of him being able to quickly adjust shield positiioning to block secondary areas as each of those targetting adjustments that Cap defended against were a split second in between (as well as being hidden as WS spun his body to prevent Cap from seeing where the next shot is coming from til the last split second). Your only argument is that he won't be able to see and I find that silly as we've seen him block shots behind his shield thus evidence by "feats" seems to disagree with you.

You have presented no evidence of DS shooting against someone who can defend against bullets and gunfire (oh wait, we do when he fought Batman and hit his armor, how did that go again?). As well as no evidence of fast-shot precision targetting of small very fast moving objects that are going to move in and out of his view randomly behind a defensive shield/position (if you've ever held a gun, you'd know the level of difficult difference involved here) or even something that would point to that being highly probable. If you do, pls post the clip.

As far as evidence goes, my evidence > yours.

Originally posted by Robtard
PIS off: Cap blocks the first, maybe second salvo, then DS corrects and shoots him in the groin or legs.

Even if Cap turtles himself behind the shield, he's protected but immoble.

Cap's best bet is to toss the shield and hope he gets hit somewhere non lethal to him, as a single well placed hit from the shield will either KO or kill DS.

PIS on: Cap charges blocking his face/upperbody and DS just keeps shooting the shield and Cap then bonks him when he gets in range.

Sounds good

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Him being unable to see -sometimes- is irrelevant to the debate (it is purely speculatory that he can't see in this fight, and frankly a bit absurd). That is because we have primary evidence of him aim blocking his opponent as well as primary evidence of him being able to quickly adjust shield positiioning to block secondary areas as each of those targetting adjustments that Cap defended against were a split second in between (as well as being hidden as WS spun his body to prevent Cap from seeing where the next shot is coming from til the last split second). Your only argument is that he won't be able to see and I find that silly as we've seen him block shots behind his shield thus evidence by "feats" seems to disagree with you.

You have presented no evidence of DS shooting against someone who can defend against bullets and gunfire (oh wait, we do when he fought Batman and hit his armor, how did that go again?). As well as no evidence of fast-shot precision targetting of small very fast moving objects that are going to move in and out of his view randomly behind a defensive shield/position (if you've ever held a gun, you'd know the level of difficult difference involved here) or even something that would point to that being highly probable. If you do, pls post the clip.

As far as evidence goes, my evidence > yours.

The time he saw behind the shield is when he Had to. WS was 3 ft away. They were hth distance apart. Cap can only afford to take his eyes off his opponent for a split second. This is because WS will not miss from that close. From a distance Cap was shown many times to hide behind the shield and NOT LOOK at the person shooting. In some cases Cap would simply put his head down and move forward, trusting that they don't shoot him in the dicke.

Anyway, I'll focus on the stronger argument. Cap was able to to adjust the block because WS was 3ft away and had to move his arm a significant distance to aim at the legs (telegraphing). This was like throwing a punch at the legs, Cap is able to block it. Now DS would be 50m away. Cap will not know what he's aiming at. A simple movement of the nozzle less than 0.2 of an inch will result in the difference in a head shot vs. a dicke shot.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
you are one funny dude.. please tell us when and where exactly did Deadshot fire at the zombies feet???? oh and yes he will shoot at the shield on purpose because Cap will have the shield up and ready to go Cap's waistline on down will be exposed. Part of his belly, his waistline, his thighs, his knees and his feet. DS can simply aim at the waist, thighs, or knees. Shooting at the feet isn't necessary.

Originally posted by FrothByte
There were multiple times in the movies where Cap's legs were exposed but he never got shot in the legs. Why? Because guess what, it's not easy to shoot someone with a shield in the legs. Especially not if he'smoving.

But hey, if DS has a feat where he shoots people in the legs then let's have it and maybe then you'd have a point. DS's ability is to hit without missing as shown in his demonstration. Those guys were not DS. It's easy for DS to hit someone in the legs or waist if he aims there. With forward movement, Cap's waistline, thighs, and knees will not be moving in relation to DS's aim. And starting from a standing position when the bell rings Cap will not be able to get get both his Feet moving fast enough before 1 second elaspes.

Originally posted by h1a8
1) The time he saw behind the shield is when he Had to. WS was 3 ft away. They were hth distance apart. Cap can only afford to take his eyes off his opponent for a split second. This is because WS will not miss from that close. From a distance Cap was shown many times to hide behind the shield and NOT LOOK at the person shooting. In some cases Cap would simply put his head down and move forward, trusting that they don't shoot him in the dicke.

2) Anyway, I'll focus on the stronger argument. Cap was able to to adjust the block because WS was 3ft away and had to move his arm a significant distance to aim at the legs (telegraphing). This was like throwing a punch at the legs, Cap is able to block it. Now DS would be 50m away. Cap will not know what he's aiming at. A simple movement of the nozzle less than 0.2 of an inch will result in the difference in a head shot vs. a dicke shot

1) Speculatory. Him being behind his shield and "not seeing" the shooter sometimes has not taken away from his ability to block their shots almost every time. What we DO know is that, relevant to the debate at hand is that we KNOW he can aim block.

2) Watch the clip again, WS snuck in a shot after a spin w/c made it pretty hidden and within a split second (0:36) . Still blocked.

https://youtu.be/IuvDKS7-MTk

You are making an argument without even providing us with any proof. The last time DS fought someone who could defend against gunfire, he shot center mass and hit armor (even tho the face was pretty damned exposed) and couldn't draw and acquire his target within a split second to shoot at weak spots. Heck, his "quick draw" was slow enough for Batman to easily block and his one chance to bypass the armor by shooting at the mouth/eyes was slow enough for his daughter to move in the way.

Here is the clip:

https://youtu.be/Y2yYSbMbnJA

He has 2 seconds before Cap is on him. And from showings, looks like his first shots are gonna hit shield.

Not looking to good for ol' Slowshot.

Also, here s the zombie shooting scene with DS armed with a rifle.

https://youtu.be/gwhu1tn4JaQ

Look at his body movements as he acquires and shoots targets at short range (0:08 onwards). Looks pretty telegraph-y to me. He moved nearly his entire body everytime he fired. Looks to me Cap will easily figure out where he is aiming.

And is it just me or did he miss 2 shots (0:23 and 0:24)? Hitting car instead of zombie at nearly point blank range?

And what about his shooting here looks faster than any other guy Cap has succesfully aim blocked before?

Originally posted by h1a8


Cap's waistline on down will be exposed. Part of his belly, his waistline, his thighs, his knees and his feet. DS can simply aim at the waist, thighs, or knees. Shooting at the feet isn't necessary.




Okay funny dude,,,,, hahahahahahahahhaha

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This theory that somehow Cap can just block these shots while running forward and take no direct serious hits is a bit off for me. It would be tough to run and not get hit with a few shots. His shield can only block so much. Nor would he even want to peak his head around the shield. For all I know, in that situation, deadshot would simply spray in a coordinated way over and over. Cap wouldn't be able to block them all.

That said, I can also see how Cap, especially with CIS on would simply be aided by DS shotting mindlessly at his shield for no apparent reason. Even without, I could see a situation where Cap would get somewhat lucky but mostly skilled and block all fire and close the distance.

However, to think Cap can just do this and not take shots is kind of silly. He's going to get hit, and likely a few times. Can he tank through that to beat that ass... Not sure Agreed with this. I give the vast majority to DS. Caps no bullet timer. DS puts a round in each of his kneecaps and finishes him off. Even if Cap completely turtles behind the shield, DS bounces a bullet off of a surface and gets him from another angle.

Its mindboggling how people keep trying to argue ways for nonbullet timers to win a fight against DS. If any part of Cap is exposed, he takes a bullet. He's stuck being an immobile turtle completely behind his shield, and even that might not block all the bullets. There is no way for him to close the gap.

The OP also stipulated that they have no idea who the other is and the DS thinks Cap is there to kill his daughter. Not only is he bloodlusted, but Cap will probably treat him like he does every other armed assailant and either:

1. Put up his shield and sprint at him leaving his entire lower body open for the many shots DS will place there

2. He'll throw his shield at DS which DS will just shoot out of the sky or take the instakill shot against a completely open Cap

There is no scenario here where Cap comes out on top with CIS off.

What makes you think DS could shot the shield out of the sky?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Speculatory. Him being behind his shield and "not seeing" the shooter sometimes has not taken away from his ability to block their shots almost every time. What we DO know is that, relevant to the debate at hand is that we KNOW he can aim block.

2) Watch the clip again, WS snuck in a shot after a spin w/c made it pretty hidden and within a split second (0:36) . Still blocked.

https://youtu.be/IuvDKS7-MTk

You are making an argument without even providing us with any proof. The last time DS fought someone who could defend against gunfire, he shot center mass and hit armor (even tho the face was pretty damned exposed) and couldn't draw and acquire his target within a split second to shoot at weak spots. Heck, his "quick draw" was slow enough for Batman to easily block and his one chance to bypass the armor by shooting at the mouth/eyes was slow enough for his daughter to move in the way.

Here is the clip:

https://youtu.be/Y2yYSbMbnJA

He has 2 seconds before Cap is on him. And from showings, looks like his first shots are gonna hit shield.

Not looking to good for ol' Slowshot.

My argument is simple. No need for long posts. Basic logic is my proof. WS was telegraphing and moving his arm a whole foot or more. It's not the same as being 50m away and adjusting the aim by millimeters. There is no evidence to support that Cap can discern the aim of a head shot vs. a groin shot (since it's a different of a few millimeters). No is there any evidence to support he can move his shield a whole foot or more in reaction to DS moving his gun a few millimeters.

That DS wasn't geared up in the scene you posted, he was in normal clothes. His gun was concealed. DS in this fight will have his gun already out in his hand and on his arm. He just lifts it and aims. DS can get a first shot off in less than a second. He can get a second shot off in less than 0.3 seconds.

It would take Cap more than 5 seconds to cover that distance from rest. It takes a few seconds for Cap to reach top speed. He will be Accelerating from 0mph.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Also, here s the zombie shooting scene with DS armed with a rifle.

https://youtu.be/gwhu1tn4JaQ

Look at his body movements as he acquires and shoots targets at short range (0:08 onwards). Looks pretty telegraph-y to me. He moved nearly his entire body everytime he fired. Looks to me Cap will easily figure out where he is aiming.

And is it just me or did he miss 2 shots (0:23 and 0:24)? Hitting car instead of zombie at nearly point blank range?

And what about his shooting here looks faster than any other guy Cap has succesfully aim blocked before? That's because they were all over the place. The sheer distance between targets was significantly greater than the distance from Cap's head to his groin. Plus they were a lot closer than 50m away (some were just a few meters away). Trust me, I did the math already. It only takes a few millimeters of change in aim to go from the head to the ground from 50m away.

Originally posted by Silent Master
What makes you think DS could shot the shield out of the sky? I don't think he can. I think the shield will overpower the bullets (assuming he is even able to even shoot at the shield when it's in the air). Cap shouldn't try to throw the shield tbh. It leaves him exposed for a good second or more. Caps best chance is to try to close the distance.

Originally posted by h1a8
My argument is simple. No need for long posts. Basic logic is my proof. WS was telegraphing and moving his arm a whole foot or more. It's not the same as being 50m away and adjusting the aim by millimeters. There is no evidence to support that Cap can discern the aim of a head shot vs. a groin shot (since it's a different of a few millimeters). No is there any evidence to support he can move his shield a whole foot or more in reaction to DS moving his gun a few millimeters.

That DS wasn't geared up in the scene you posted, he was in normal clothes. His gun was concealed. DS in this fight will have his gun already out in his hand and on his arm. He just lifts it and aims. DS can get a first shot off in less than a second. He can get a second shot off in less than 0.3 seconds.

It would take Cap more than 5 seconds to cover that distance from rest. It takes a few seconds for Cap to reach top speed. He will be Accelerating from 0mph.

Except he wasn't (concealing a shot/movement until the last split-second of execution is the opposite of "telegraphing" in case you didn't know) and DS does (as indicated by his showings). Evidence > unsupported logic.

He had his gun in hand when he allowed his daughter to get between him and Batman. Him having his gun on-hand would still require him to raise said gun, aim it and fire (as characters don't start aiming weapons at each other). And based on on-screen showings, he isn't exactly faster than any other random shmoe with a gun Cap has blocked or dodged in the past. More accurate? Yes. Faster? No.

Cap will block his initial salvo, on screen evidence supports my argument, not yours.

And I call BS with the whole 5 second claim. Classic you to make a claim, not back it with evidence or logic and then place the burden of proof on the other side. That is a classic tactic of a bad debater, you know?

Unfortunately for you, however, I can back my shit up with actual logic and evidence.

Highway chase scene:

https://youtu.be/2Wn23N77hF0

(0:48) WS jumps down and lands at 0mph. What do you notice?

Cars are swerving away from him, as bodies (cars) in motion would need to avoid a body (WS) NOT in motion that is directly in their path to avoid hitting it. Especially at the speeds they move in freeways.

The second he starts running at (0:49), cars are no longer seen gaining ground on him and are no longer avoiding him nor does anything indicate that they slowed down in any way as all of them are shown to still be in their regular rate of motion as soon as we see Cap and BP jump down.

So you're a "physics buff". When objects in motion no longer appear to gain ground from someone's frame of reference, what does that mean?

Yep. Means that he was able to accelerate to said object's speed within said time frame. Which all happened as soon as he started running.

I'll not explain further as, if you have basic understanding of either physics and logic, you'd know that Cap did the same thing based on the evidence provided. I'll let you figure it out and not spoonfeed you the rest.

Bear in mind that if I hear the whole "feats aren't interchangeable" argument, then I will assume that you either have a poor understanding of physics or did not review the evidence provided. Because if you look closely at the evidence, it does prove that Cap accelarated to WS's speed almost instantly.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's because they were all over the place. The sheer distance between targets was significantly greater than the distance from Cap's head to his groin. Plus they were a lot closer than 50m away (some were just a few meters away). Trust me, I did the math already. It only takes a few millimeters of change in aim to go from the head to the ground from 50m away.

He still telegraphs his movement when he acquires new targets. Evidence points to this. Heck, he had a ton of wasted movment everytime he fired his weapons in the clip I posted. Yet you are arguing that he would have precise and total economy of movement in shooting at Cap within the first 2 seconds.

Evidence > assumption.

Sorry sport, not gonna fly.

Originally posted by Silent Master
What makes you think DS could shot the shield out of the sky? I remember him shooting a projectile out of the sky in the movie, though I cant remember the specific scene. Someone else would need to chime in on this one for the specifics.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Except he wasn't (concealing a shot/movement until the last split-second of execution is the opposite of "telegraphing" in case you didn't know) and DS does (as indicated by his showings). Evidence > unsupported logic.

He had his gun in hand when he allowed his daughter to get between him and Batman. Him having his gun on-hand would still require him to raise said gun, aim it and fire (as characters don't start aiming weapons at each other). And based on on-screen showings, he isn't exactly faster than any other random shmoe with a gun Cap has blocked or dodged in the past. More accurate? Yes. Faster? No.

Cap will block his initial salvo, on screen evidence supports my argument, not yours.

And I call BS with the whole 5 second claim. Classic you to make a claim, not back it with evidence or logic and then place the burden of proof on the other side. That is a classic tactic of a bad debater, you know?

Unfortunately for you, however, I can back my shit up with actual logic and evidence.

Highway chase scene:

https://youtu.be/2Wn23N77hF0

(0:48) WS jumps down and lands at 0mph. What do you notice?

Cars are swerving away from him, as bodies (cars) in motion would need to avoid a body (WS) NOT in motion that is directly in their path to avoid hitting it. Especially at the speeds they move in freeways.

The second he starts running at (0:49), cars are no longer seen gaining ground on him and are no longer avoiding him nor does anything indicate that they slowed down in any way as all of them are shown to still be in their regular rate of motion as soon as we see Cap and BP jump down.

So you're a "physics buff". When objects in motion no longer appear to gain ground from someone's frame of reference, what does that mean?

Yep. Means that he was able to accelerate to said object's speed within said time frame. Which all happened as soon as he started running.

I'll not explain further as, if you have basic understanding of either physics and logic, you'd know that Cap did the same thing based on the evidence provided. I'll let you figure it out and not spoonfeed you the rest.

Bear in mind that if I hear the whole "feats aren't interchangeable" argument, then I will assume that you either have a poor understanding of physics or did not review the evidence provided. Because if you look closely at the evidence, it does prove that Cap accelarated to WS's speed almost instantly. another long post. Geez.

You can try to derail the points, it won't work. Again DS can get a shot off in less than a second. And a second shot off in less than 0.3 seconds. That's all that matters.

Yes DS Telegraphed. I'm saying when he is fighting Cap a simple change by a few millimeters will be the difference between a head shot and a groin shot. Not only isn't there any evidence to support that Cap can detect a few millimeter difference in aim from 50m away but he there is no evidence to support he can move his shield fast enough and certainly no evidence to support that he can even trace an aim from that far (since a few millimeters difference equals the difference of several feet.

You are using stuff that don't rebut my argument. What evidence supports that Cap can
1. Trace an aim that precise from that distance
2. Move his shield fast enough in response to DS moving his gun a few millimeters.

Nothing you shown supports Cap being able to do that.

If you don't believe that a few millimeters difference in aim equals a few feet in the shot then I'll prove it to you.

What are you talking about? We don't see Cap instantly doing anything. We see him jump down a fraction of a second after BP. The scene is then cut. WS is running with human speed (by the look of his leg speed, stride length, and the slow movement of the cars). This is actually a low showing for Cap.

Originally posted by h1a8
another long post. Geez.

You can try to derail the points, it won't work. Again DS can get a shot off in less than a second. And a second shot off in less than 0.3 seconds. That's all that matters.

Yes DS Telegraphed. I'm saying when he is fighting Cap a simple change by a few millimeters will be the difference between a head shot and a groin shot. Not only isn't there any evidence to support that Cap can detect a few millimeter difference in aim from 50m away but he there is no evidence to support he can move his shield fast enough and certainly no evidence to support that he can even trace an aim from that far (since a few millimeters difference equals the difference of several feet.

You are using stuff that don't rebut my argument. How could
1. Trace an aim that precise from that distance
2. Move his shield fast enough in response to DS moving his gun a few millimeters.

Nothing you shown supports Cap being able to do that.

If you don't believe that a few millimeters difference in aim equals a few feet in the shot then I'll prove it to you.

What are you talking about? We don't see Cap instantly doing anything. We see him jump down a fraction of a second after BP. The scene is then cut. WS is running with human speed (by the look of his leg speed, stride length, and the slow movement of the cars). This is actually a low showing for Cap.

I disagree. Based on evidence, DS will pretty much telegraph his aim. First salvo will be center mass and get blocked. The next salvo will mean that Cap would be close enough to easily aim block his shots. You claim that he would immediately realize to shoot at the legs within a split second and yet have provided nothing to support this. Heck, we even see him get flustered when Batman caught him by surprise.

I have provided evidence of Cap aim blocking and blocking shots that would have been direct hits, yet you chose to disregard evidence while providing none of your own.

Now cars in a freeway are moving at human speed now? SMH. Average speeds in busy freeways are around 30-45 mph at least unless there is heavy traffic w/c I don't see here. You need to prove the things you say before you post it.

And I gave you a chance to prove your math skillz. Sadly, you didn't take the opportunity.

At (0:53) we see WS reach top speed (easily zipping past cars) BP couldn't have started running until (0:52) and Cap at around a split second into (0:53) as we see his feet touching the ground around this time.

Top speeds appear identical or close enough for one not to gain ground on the other. The distances between Cap, BP and WS looks about (6 car lengths to me from 0:56-0:57 between BP and WS and much closer between BP and Cap) 80 feet to me between WS and BP are consistent with one getting a second head start at around 55 mph. Go ahead, do the math.

Cap covers the distance in 2 seconds and bonks DS in the face.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I remember him shooting a projectile out of the sky in the movie, though I cant remember the specific scene. Someone else would need to chime in on this one for the specifics.

A vibranium projectile the size and weight of Cap's shield?

Of course not, but a three round burst from an m16 hitting the shield in mid air should still at least make it veer off course. Caps shield doesn't stay in perfect unstoppable linear motion. In fact, the way Cap uses it depends on it's trajectory being altered by collision, so I'm not seeing why something with that much force in such a small area wouldn't affect the shield in any way

Do you have any proof that a 3 round burst would knock a vibranium shield off course or are you just guessing?

Why are people comfortable giving DS skills he's never shown in feats (shooting legs, quick drawing, shooting thrown shields) while completely ignoring Cap's feats where he never got hit by bullets while he had his shield.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Why are people comfortable giving DS skills he's never shown in feats (shooting legs, quick drawing, shooting thrown shields) while completely ignoring Cap's feats where he never got hit by bullets while he had his shield.


they ignorant...

im thinking of playing their game and say that Cap's suit is made of the same material as the Batsuit

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I disagree. Based on evidence, DS will pretty much telegraph his aim. First salvo will be center mass and get blocked. The next salvo will mean that Cap would be close enough to easily aim block his shots. You claim that he would immediately realize to shoot at the legs within a split second and yet have provided nothing to support this. Heck, we even see him get flustered when Batman caught him by surprise.

I have provided evidence of Cap aim blocking and blocking shots that would have been direct hits, yet you chose to disregard evidence while providing none of your own.

Now cars in a freeway are moving at human speed now? SMH. Average speeds in busy freeways are around 30-45 mph at least unless there is heavy traffic w/c I don't see here. You need to prove the things you say before you post it.

And I gave you a chance to prove your math skillz. Sadly, you didn't take the opportunity.

At (0:53) we see WS reach top speed (easily zipping past cars) BP couldn't have started running until (0:52) and Cap at around a split second into (0:53) as we see his feet touching the ground around this time.

Top speeds appear identical or close enough for one not to gain ground on the other. The distances between Cap, BP and WS looks about (6 car lengths to me from 0:56-0:57 between BP and WS and much closer between BP and Cap) 80 feet to me between WS and BP are consistent with one getting a second head start at around 55 mph. Go ahead, do the math.

Cap covers the distance in 2 seconds and bonks DS in the face.

You provided evidence of Cap aim blocking from close range, not from long distance. You are passing it off as proof that Cap can aim dodge from long range. I agree he can aim block from close range. That's not the argument though as you are thinking.

Cap isn't that fast from a standstill. He has no feats of covering 50m in less than 3 seconds from a standstill. Hell he couldn't catch Bucky or BP right away. DS is going to shoot at either the legs or groin. It will be instinct and common sense to do. You are banking off DS being dumb and still aiming at the shield.

In several scenes you see the cars moving about 10-15mph. I'm not sure if this was done on purpose so that the characters appear faster than what they are or the cars was intended to move that fast.

Anyway, you haven't shown Cap being able to cover 50m in less than 5 second from a standstill. Bucky jumps down and starts running 4 seconds before BP lands. BP is only 30-40 ft away from Bucky when he lands. Thus Bucky has only traveled 30-40ft away in that time. Yet Cap is just as fast as him?

I would like the underlined question answered pls.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Also, here s the zombie shooting scene with DS armed with a rifle.

https://youtu.be/gwhu1tn4JaQ

Look at his body movements as he acquires and shoots targets at short range (0:08 onwards). Looks pretty telegraph-y to me. He moved nearly his entire body everytime he fired. Looks to me Cap will easily figure out where he is aiming.

And is it just me or did he miss 2 shots (0:23 and 0:24)? Hitting car instead of zombie at nearly point blank range?

And what about his shooting here looks faster than any other guy Cap has succesfully aim blocked before?

Here's the math.
This is a basic similar triangle problem.
Let d1=length of a handgun = 0.1524m
d2= the distance between the characters =50m
h2 = the distance from Cap's head to his groin = 1m
h1 = the vertical distance the nozzle of the handgun has to move.

h1/d1 = h2/d2 => h1 = d1*h2/d2 = 3mm

I can post the diagram if you want.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I would like the underlined question answered pls. I didn't see a single miss. I watched the scene you posted about 4 times. I don't see a miss.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
they ignorant...

im thinking of playing their game and say that Cap's suit is made of the same material as the Batsuit

Or just go Cap has the magic power of blocking anything with his shield. After all, some guy keeps saying that DS has the magic power of never missing.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Why are people comfortable giving DS skills he's never shown in feats (shooting legs, quick drawing, shooting thrown shields) while completely ignoring Cap's feats where he never got hit by bullets while he had his shield. Cap got shot several times.

Anyway. I say DS draws as fast as a normal trained human. Which is fast enough to get off plenty of shots before Cap closes the distance.

Originally posted by h1a8
Here's the math.
This is a basic similar triangle problem.
Let d1=length of a handgun = 0.1524m
d2= the distance between the characters =50m
h2 = the distance from Cap's head to his groin = 1m
h1 = the vertical distance the nozzle of the handgun has to move.

h1/d1 = h2/d2 => h1 = d1*h2/d2 = 3mm

I can post the diagram if you want.


You're forgetting to add in a few factors. Line of sight, trajectory of bullet and angle of shield coverage. A properly utilized shield the size of Cap's should effectively be able to cover till his knees given proper angle and profile to DS's line of sight.

Originally posted by h1a8
You provided evidence of Cap aim blocking from close range, not from long distance. You are passing it off as proof that Cap can aim dodge from long range. I agree he can aim block from close range. That's not the argument though as you are thinking.

Cap isn't that fast from a standstill. He has no feats of covering 50m in less than 3 seconds from a standstill. Hell he couldn't catch Bucky or BP right away. DS is going to shoot at either the legs or groin. It will be instinct and common sense to do. You are banking off DS being dumb and still aiming at the shield.

In several scenes you see the cars moving about 10-15mph. I'm not sure if this was done on purpose so that the characters appear faster than what they are or the cars was intended to move that fast.

Anyway, you haven't shown Cap being able to cover 50m in less than 5 second from a standstill. Bucky jumps down and starts running 4 seconds before BP lands. BP is only 30-40 ft away from Bucky when he lands. Thus Bucky has only traveled 30-40ft away in that time. Yet Cap is just as fast as him?

He has blocked gunfire at this range (see highway fight in WS) and has even deflected bullets towards his opponents within this range. He has "feats" of blocking and dodging gunfire at that range, and DS has zero "feats" of hitting actively defending targets.

And the one time he faced one, he hit armor at point blank, got flustered, allowed his daughter enough time to step in the way and got himself caught. The "feats" and showings disagree with your powerset-only argument. He is not given time to assess the situation and readjust his stategy here. Until "feats" say otherwise, he fires center mass or aims for the head, which Cap will block.

Of course he couldn't catch up to Bucky and BP, they were running at more or less the same speed he was. This is basic stuff, man. And if you look at the clip instead of making up your own figures (seriously, stop it), you'll know that Bucky landed at (0:48) and doesn't even start running til (0:50) and was looking over his shoulder. He doesn't start accelerating at full speed til (0:52) when he sees Cap and BP landed behind him. By (0:53) he was passing cars easily. So that 4 second line was complete BS.

Heck no they were moving at 15 mph. It was obvious via portrayal that this was a standard freeway and cars don't drive 15mph on a freeway. Granted they may have slowed the cars down (and used camera play to make them seem faster) for obvious safety and storytelling reasons (as real ppl can't run 50-60 mph) but writer's intention clearly portray this as a standard busy freeway. Especially when at (1:00) they were shown to be chased by a police (?) pursuit vehicle and it was barely keeping up (with no implied changes to the constant speed of the vehicles around them). Essentially and obviously, writer's intention.

And that's not the point, WS already had a second head start by (0:52) and he was already at full velocity running-past-cars speed at this time. if you understand basic math, you'd know that if Cap took more than a second (like you say) to accelerate to equal his speed, then the distance discrepancy would have been much greater. Do the math.

Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't see a single miss. I watched the scene you posted about 4 times. I don't see a miss.

Look at 0:23-0:24. 2 shots seems to hit car instead of zombie.

I will acknowkedge the fact that the footage is awful and will wait until high res images are available.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
He has blocked gunfire at this range (see highway fight in WS) and has even deflected bullets towards his opponents within this range. He has "feats" of blocking and dodging gunfire at that range, and DS has zero "feats" of hitting actively defending targets.

And the one time he faced one, he hit armor at point blank, got flustered, allowed his daughter enough time to step in the way and got himself caught. The "feats" and showings disagree with your powerset-only argument. He is not given time to assess the situation and readjust his stategy here. Until "feats" say otherwise, he fires center mass or aims for the head, which Cap will block.

Of course he couldn't catch up to Bucky and BP, they were running at more or less the same speed he was. This is basic stuff, man. And if you look at the clip instead of making up your own figures (seriously, stop it), you'll know that Bucky landed at (0:48) and doesn't even start running til (0:50) and was looking over his shoulder. He doesn't start accelerating at full speed til (0:52) when he sees Cap and BP landed behind him. By (0:53) he was passing cars easily. So that 4 second line was complete BS.

Heck no they were moving at 15 mph. It was obvious via portrayal that this was a standard freeway and cars don't drive 15mph on a freeway. Granted they may have slowed the cars down (and used camera play to make them seem faster) for obvious safety and storytelling reasons (as real ppl can't run 50-60 mph) but writer's intention clearly portray this as a standard busy freeway. Especially when at (1:00) they were shown to be chased by a police (?) pursuit vehicle and it was barely keeping up (with no implied changes to the constant speed of the vehicles around them). Essentially and obviously, writer's intention.

And that's not the point, WS already had a second head start by (0:52) and he was already at full velocity running-past-cars speed at this time. if you understand basic math, you'd know that if Cap took more than a second (like you say) to accelerate to equal his speed, then the distance discrepancy would have been much greater. Do the math.

You are moving the goalposts. Of course Cap has blocked bullets from that range. The shooter will aim for center of mass remember? But that has no bearing on Cap being able to trace the aim precisely from that distance (knowing the difference between a head shot aim and a groin shot aim is a difference of a few millimeters). Also even if Cap can trace the aim precisely from that distance you still have the problem with him lowering the shield a foot or more IN RESPONSE AND BEFORE DS lowers the aim a few Millimeters and fires.

You are using irrelevant showings.
1. He was surprised and not in top fighting mindset
2. He was in street clothes where his gun was holstered and concealed.
3. He was in hth close range where Batman can respond better.


Yes he will aim at Cap's head at first. I agreed on this. Do you completely read my posts or just parts and ignore other parts? My point is that once Cap's blocks the first shot then DS will aim at an exposed area. This takes only a matter of a second to adjust. Remember DS went shooting one target to the next in less than 0.3 seconds (by moving the gun a few feet instead of a few millimeters here).

Bucky starts running at 0.49 (not 0.50). BP lands at 0.53. WS is only 30-40ft away when BP lands.
That means that Cap (who is similar speed) will cover up to 40feet in the first 4 seconds. Even using your 3 second scenario this still isn't 50m.
You just killed your own argument. Top running speed is irrelevant. It's all about acceleration and the time it takes to cover the first x feet from rest.


Originally posted by FrothByte
You're forgetting to add in a few factors. Line of sight, trajectory of bullet and angle of shield coverage. A properly utilized shield the size of Cap's should effectively be able to cover till his knees given proper angle and profile to DS's line of sight.

I covered line of site. The bullet will travel approximately straight from 50m away with a slight curve (making it easier to hit Cap). In all the movies, Cap's waistline on down was completely exposed when he was on the move. There was a few scenes where he was turtled up but he was completely stationary.

This is all moot anyway as DS will hit what HE SEES. That's his ability.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are moving the goalposts. Of course Cap has blocked bullets from that range. The shooter will aim for center of mass remember? But that has no bearing on Cap being able to trace the aim precisely from that distance (knowing the difference between a head shot aim and a groin shot aim is a difference of a few millimeters). Also even if Cap can trace the aim precisely from that distance you still have the problem with him lowering the shield a foot or more IN RESPONSE AND BEFORE DS lowers the aim a few Millimeters and fires.

You are using irrelevant showings.
1. He was surprised and not in top fighting mindset
2. He was in street clothes where his gun was holstered and concealed.
3. He was in hth close range where Batman can respond better.

Yes he will aim at Cap's head at first. I agreed on this. Do you completely read my posts or just parts and ignore other parts? My point is that once Cap's blocks the first shot then DS will aim at an exposed area. This takes only a matter of a second to adjust. Remember DS went shooting one target to the next in less than 0.3 seconds (by moving the gun a few feet instead of a few millimeters here).

Bucky starts running at 0.49 (not 0.50). BP lands at 0.53. WS is only 30-40ft away when BP lands.
That means that Cap (who is similar speed) will cover up to 40feet in the first 4 seconds. Even using your 3 second scenario this still isn't 50m.
You just killed your own argument. Top running speed is irrelevant. It's all about acceleration and the time it takes to cover the first x feet from rest. .

Actually, that's been the argument from the very start. It is not "moving the goalposts" when you're just repeating the same argument you've been presenting from the very beginning. The argument has always been "feats" (Cap) vs no "feats" (DS).

You are the one implying that DS will immediately bypass Cap's defenses the second he realizes the shield blocks bullets. Of which he has no "feats" proving this.

You got it backwards, you are attempting to distract from your lack of evidence by focusing on a purely conjectural argument. Should I repost my first and second post to prove this?

Facts:
DS telegraphs his shots.
DS has poor economy of movement in several of his showings.
The one time DS faced an opponent who can defend against bullets, he got flustered and hit armor.

Cap has aim blocked opponents
Cap has blocked bullets from a variety of range.
Cap is a master of trajectory.

You claim that it takes a minute change in angle to hit Cap and that DS can change his tactics on the fly within seconds, and that at this distance, Cap would not be able to see where he is aiming.

But Cap has blocked shots from that distance before, are you saying that it was luck or that his opponents were magically drawn to his shield? He knew where the bullets would land and defended against them.

And DS telegraphis his shots, his body moves at an almost exaggerated way when he makes even minute adjustments to aim (see zombir fight). Even at 50m, Cap will notice that DS is adjusting his aim.

DS has one showing where he fought someone capable of defending against gunfire. He failed. Why are you so confident that he would be able to bypass the defenses of an opponent with a far richer history of defending against gunfire?

No one is denying his great aim. But why can't his shots be dodged? Why can't they be blocked?

Wait. What part of your last post to me did you indicate that you agreed to DS shooting head first and hitting the shield? Because I just went thru your old posts and I couldn't find it. Pls quote it because your last post insists that he will shoot at the legs and groin and made no mention of the head/center mass shot.

You're not getting it.....

Firstly, this debate isn't about WS. It is about Cap. And WS was already at full speed before Cap even got started running.

Do the math.

Initial starting point = where Bucky is 40 feet (as you claimed) ahead.
Bucky's velocity = top speed of 55mph at least
Ending distance = 100 feet (as he was slightly behind BP) apart.
Cap's initial speed. = 0 mph
Cap's constant acceleration = X

Solve for X.

And come back here and let me know the results. I promise that it will be very enlightening and will in no way "kill my own argument".

Will be gone for a few days after the last post. Need to reprioritze work again and I need to sleep, but should be able to post by Thrusday. Good night.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Do you have any proof that a 3 round burst would knock a vibranium shield off course or are you just guessing? Just guessing based off real world physics. Do you have proof that the shield would keep a perfect linear motion after taking three 5.56 rounds in mid air? That sounds pretty unlikely. There is no counter force like Cap behind it here after all, and his shield doesn't work like the Juggernaut.

Real world physics hardly apply to a fictional super-metal that can absorb energy.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Just guessing based off real world physics. Do you have proof that the shield would keep a perfect linear motion after taking three 5.56 rounds in mid air? That sounds pretty unlikely. There is no counter force like Cap behind it here after all, and his shield doesn't work like the Juggernaut.

This point is moot anyway. If DS takes the time to shoot the shield out of the air he'll get tackled by Cap. His best bet is to dodge the shield and keep shooting at Cap.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Actually, that's been the argument from the very start. It is not "moving the goalposts" when you're just repeating the same argument you've been presenting from the very beginning. The argument has always been "feats" (Cap) vs no "feats" (DS).

You are the one implying that DS will immediately bypass Cap's defenses the second he realizes the shield blocks bullets. Of which he has no "feats" proving this.

You got it backwards, you are attempting to distract from your lack of evidence by focusing on a purely conjectural argument. Should I repost my first and second post to prove this?

Facts:
DS telegraphs his shots.
DS has poor economy of movement in several of his showings.
The one time DS faced an opponent who can defend against bullets, he got flustered and hit armor.

Cap has aim blocked opponents
Cap has blocked bullets from a variety of range.
Cap is a master of trajectory.

You claim that it takes a minute change in angle to hit Cap and that DS can change his tactics on the fly within seconds, and that at this distance, Cap would not be able to see where he is aiming.

But Cap has blocked shots from that distance before, are you saying that it was luck or that his opponents were magically drawn to his shield? He knew where the bullets would land and defended against them.

And DS telegraphis his shots, his body moves at an almost exaggerated way when he makes even minute adjustments to aim (see zombir fight). Even at 50m, Cap will notice that DS is adjusting his aim.

DS has one showing where he fought someone capable of defending against gunfire. He failed. Why are you so confident that he would be able to bypass the defenses of an opponent with a far richer history of defending against gunfire?

No one is denying his great aim. But why can't his shots be dodged? Why can't they be blocked?

Wait. What part of your last post to me did you indicate that you agreed to DS shooting head first and hitting the shield? Because I just went thru your old posts and I couldn't find it. Pls quote it because your last post insists that he will shoot at the legs and groin and made no mention of the head/center mass shot.

You're not getting it.....

Firstly, this debate isn't about WS. It is about Cap. And WS was already at full speed before Cap even got started running.

Do the math.

Initial starting point = where Bucky is 40 feet (as you claimed) ahead.
Bucky's velocity = top speed of 55mph at least
Ending distance = 100 feet (as he was slightly behind BP) apart.
Cap's initial speed. = 0 mph
Cap's constant acceleration = X

Solve for X.

And come back here and let me know the results. I promise that it will be very enlightening and will in no way "kill my own argument".

Now you are bordering trolling.
I already proved that Bucky traveled 40ft in the first 4 seconds. This means it would take Cap more than 4 seconds to reach DS. It takes time to reach full speed. Top speed is irrelevant. I just proved that Cap won't cross 50m in less than 4 seconds.

DS can raise his gun and fire in about a second. That being poor performance is irrelevant and red herring. DS can get another shot off in less than a second (as shown).

Answer these questions.

1. Are you saying that Cap gets to him in less than 3 seconds when it was shown him to take longer to reach a smaller distance?
2. Are you saying it would take longer than a second to get the first shot off?
3. Are you saying that DS wouldn't go for an exposed area when he sees Cap's head and chest is covered by a shield?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Real world physics hardly apply to a fictional super-metal that can absorb energy. There was a scene where Cap got knocked through a building when he blocked an rpg with his shield. Fiction support both cases.

Tbh Cap's shield is one of the dumbest things in comics. I studied the properties of it in physics class a long time ago. I got contradictions everywhere. It bounces off walls and people with almost no loss of momentum yet it absorbs impacts well. So I figure the shield is made of at least two separate parts. The edge has elastic properties and the center has absorbing properties. I know writers didn't create the shield that way but it is the only plausible thing I can think of.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Or just go Cap has the magic power of blocking anything with his shield. After all, some guy keeps saying that DS has the magic power of never missing.

that'll work...

Originally posted by h1a8
Now you are bordering trolling.
I already proved that Bucky traveled 40ft in the first 4 seconds. This means it would take Cap more than 4 seconds to reach DS. It takes time to reach full speed. Top speed is irrelevant. I just proved that Cap won't cross 50m in less than 4 seconds.

DS can raise his gun and fire in about a second. That being poor performance is irrelevant and red herring. DS can get another shot off in less than a second (as shown).

Answer these questions.

1. Are you saying that Cap gets to him in less than 3 seconds when it was shown him to take longer to reach a smaller distance?
2. Are you saying it would take longer than a second to get the first shot off?
3. Are you saying that DS wouldn't go for an exposed area when he sees Cap's head and chest is covered by a shield?

That poor performance is his only showing. You can try and sweep it under the rug but you need to provide evidence that contradicts it. It proves 4 things:
-DS telegraphs his moves.
-DS is nothing special on the draw speed wise.
-DS can get flustered when facing something that can negate his firearms and might (like any normal person) take a second or two to re-adjust his tactics
-DS primary attack will be center mass/headshot. Which will get blocked.

And I asked you where it was that you "agreed with me" in your prior replies to me when you accused me of not reading your replies. By your silence, I guess you owe me an apology.

OMG, you're still not getting it.....

Why are you using Bucky's performance to guage Cap's performance? This isn't about Bucky. It is about Cap.

Here are some facts.
-at (0:53) Cap lands some feet away from BP. The distance, from your own words, is around 40 feet behind.
-at (0:53) Bucky is shown to already be running at top speed, outracing cars in the freeway (setting it at around at least 55 mph top speed at this point, tho it should be quite a bit faster than that IMO.).
-at (0:56-0:59) we can see WS ahead of BP by close to around 6 car lengths (or around 80 feet. Freeze the frames around this point a few times and measure) with Cap close behind (20 feet more or less).

Which of the above facts are wrong?

Thus:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Initial starting point = where Bucky is 40 feet (as you claimed) ahead.
Bucky's velocity = top speed of 55mph at least
Ending distance = 100 feet (as he was slightly behind BP) apart.
Cap's initial speed. = 0 mph
Cap's constant acceleration = X

Solve for X..

I am being serious when I say I have work to do and I really shouldn't be wasting time here posting. Pls show your fellow debater some courtesy and do your due diligence before replying

Edit. Forgot to include that Cap's top speed also caps at 55 mph (or caps at whatever Bucky's top speed is as none of the characters sermed to be able to gain ground on the other).

Too bad the OP didnt make this into a poll topic...

It would have been interesting to see what the results would have been...

I havent counted, but (with just glancing over some of the replies) it seems the voting would be close at this point...

Anyway, carry on; this is entertaining...

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That poor performance is his only showing. You can try and sweep it under the rug but you need to provide evidence that contradicts it. It proves 4 things:
-DS telegraphs his moves.
-DS is nothing special on the draw speed wise.
-DS can get flustered when facing something that can negate his firearms and might (like any normal person) take a second or two to re-adjust his tactics
-DS primary attack will be center mass/headshot. Which will get blocked.

And I asked you where it was that you "agreed with me" in your prior replies to me when you accused me of not reading your replies. By your silence, I guess you owe me an apology.

OMG, you're still not getting it.....

Why are you using Bucky's performance to guage Cap's performance? This isn't about Bucky. It is about Cap.

Here are some facts.
-at (0:53) Cap lands some feet away from BP. The distance, from your own words, is around 40 feet behind.
-at (0:53) Bucky is shown to already be running at top speed, outracing cars in the freeway (setting it at around at least 55 mph top speed at this point, tho it should be quite a bit faster than that IMO.).
-at (0:56-0:59) we can see WS ahead of BP by close to around 6 car lengths (or around 80 feet. Freeze the frames around this point a few times and measure) with Cap close behind (20 feet more or less).

Which of the above facts are wrong?

Thus:



I am being serious when I say I have work to do and I really shouldn't be wasting time here posting. Pls show your fellow debater some courtesy and do your due diligence before replying

Now actually try ADDRESSING my argument without utterly ignoring it and posting things that has nothing to do with what I said.

I'll repeat

You claimed that Cap runs at a similar speed as Bucky. These are your own words, now eat them. After all, he couldn't catch up to Bucky and BP after many seconds of running. He gained no ground on Bucky or BP (lost ground actually). Bucky is either faster or equal to Cap in running speed.


I already proved that Bucky traveled the first 40ft in the first 4 seconds. This means it would take Cap more than 4 seconds to reach DS. But I'll satisfy your question at the end.

Another point you didn't address.
DS can raise his gun and fire in about a second. 1 second being "poor performance" is irrelevant and red herring since 1 second is enough. DS can get another shot off in less than a second (as shown). This is enough time. 2 seconds being "poor performance" is red herring since that's enough time to get the job done.

You also didn't respond to this question.

Are you saying that DS wouldn't go for an exposed area when he sees Cap's head and chest is covered by a shield?

Calculating the value to your question is irrelevant if we know that Cap covered the first 40ft distance in about 4 seconds, but I'll do it anyway. It's about distance and time. Thus the speculation (not fact) that the cars were moving 55mph is false. How can one accelerate uniformly to 55mph or more in 4 seconds when they only traveled 40ft in 4 seconds? This is a contradiction. But WE SEE HIM travel 40 feet in 4 seconds. We actually don't know how fast the cars were going. So what we see is stronger than what we speculate. In some scenes the cars appear to be moving at 15mph due to rush hour traffic. Some cars were in front of others by a few feet (almost like traffic jam).

Before we satisfy your question. Let's assume Cap can travel 55mph instantly (infinite acceleration) instead of 4 seconds, but he tops out at 55mph. Then it would take him 2 seconds to get to DS. But since we know it takes him 4 seconds to reach 55mph then he gets to DS in more than 2 seconds.

Now to satisfy your question. I can calculate the exact time it would take Cap to reach DS assuming he can reach 55mph in 4 seconds.

a = v/t = 55mph/4 seconds = 6.1468m/s^2

The distance covered in the first 4 seconds is
d = 1/2at^2 = 1/2(6.1468)(4)^2 = 49.1744m. Although thus contradicts what was shown, it still shows more than 4 seconds to reach DS.

So Cap gets to DS in a little over 4 seconds assuming he can reach top speed in 4 seconds and top out at 55mph.

This is getting out of hand. DS has no feats shooting at moving legs and feat. Cap has plenty feats blocking all incoming gunfire.

Yes, Cap has never gone up against a marksman like DS but DS also has never gone up against an opponent like Steve.

So you can argue physics and math all you want, at the end of the day DS has no feats to support what you're claiming.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now actually try ADDRESSING my argument without utterly ignoring it and posting things that has nothing to do with what I said.

I'll repeat

You claimed that Cap runs at a similar speed as Bucky. These are your own words, now eat them. After all, he couldn't catch up to Bucky and BP after many seconds of running. He gained no ground on Bucky or BP (lost ground actually). Bucky is either faster or equal to Cap in running speed.

I already proved that Bucky traveled the first 40ft in the first 4 seconds. This means it would take Cap more than 4 seconds to reach DS. But I'll satisfy your question at the end.

Another point you didn't address.
DS can raise his gun and fire in about a second. 1 second being "poor performance" is irrelevant and red herring since 1 second is enough. DS can get another shot off in less than a second (as shown). This is enough time. 2 seconds being "poor performance" is red herring since that's enough time to get the job done.

You also didn't respond to this question.

Are you saying that DS wouldn't go for an exposed area when he sees Cap's head and chest is covered by a shield?

Calculating the value to your question is irrelevant if we know that Cap covered the first 40ft distance in about 4 seconds, but I'll do it anyway. It's about distance and time. Thus the speculation (not fact) that the cars were moving 55mph is false. How can one accelerate uniformly to 55mph or more in 4 seconds when they only traveled 40ft in 4 seconds? This is a contradiction. But WE SEE HIM travel 40 feet in 4 seconds. We actually don't know how fast the cars were going. So what we see is stronger than what we speculate. In some scenes the cars appear to be moving at 15mph due to rush hour traffic. Some cars were in front of others by a few feet (almost like traffic jam).

Before we satisfy your question. Let's assume Cap can travel 55mph instantly (infinite acceleration) instead of 4 seconds, but he tops out at 55mph. Then it would take him 2 seconds to get to DS. But since we know it takes him 4 seconds to reach 55mph then he gets to DS in more than 2 seconds.

Now to satisfy your question. I can calculate the exact time it would take Cap to reach DS assuming he can reach 55mph in 4 seconds.

a = v/t = 55mph/4 seconds = 6.1468m/s^2

The distance covered in the first 4 seconds is
d = 1/2at^2 = 1/2(6.1468)(4)^2 = 49.1744m. Although thus contradicts what was shown, it still shows more than 4 seconds to reach DS.

So Cap gets to DS in a little over 4 seconds assuming he can reach top speed in 4 seconds and top out at 55mph.

Lol. Utter garbage. It's funny how you try to ignoring your points when that is the exact same thing you are doing. Hypocrite much?

My argument has always been: "Feats support Cap being capable of defending against gunfire while DS has no showings of bypassing an opponent's defenses when they are actively trying to defend from being shot and actually has a bad showing when it comes to this." You're the one trying to distract from that.

But feel free to toss accusations anytime. I'm sure ppl believe you.

Yes, I said they run at similar top speeds. But we are talking acceleration here (since you brought it up). You DO understand the difference, right Mr "Physics-guy"?

And no, Bucky taking 4 seconds to cross 40 feet hass no bearing on Cap's capabilities as Cap has his own showings.

Here you are trying to downplay Cap's acceleration by using Bucky's showings while trying to distract from the fact that Cap has a pefectly quantifiable showing available within the same scene.

Writer's intent trumps your unsupported ramblings any day. They even used clever cameraplay to conceal/exaggerate their run speeds, which unquestionably. proves the writer's intent.

He was portrayed outpacing cars in a freeway. Cars don't go 10-15 mph in a freeway. Unless you can provide proof that this was not a regular freeway, then cars move at their average speed here by default (45 mph on average). Cry all you want, but that's how it is.

You have a poor understanding of physics and reality in general if you didn't know that acceleration need not be constant. How did it happen to Bucky, you say? Can't say for sure, but if I was to speculate, then it maybe it was because Bucky didn't push himself to top speed right away until he saw them landing as he still kinda had to look to his back at times to see where they are. Ppl can run at different speeds depending on the situation and how hard they push themselves, or didn't you know that? You try running while constantly checking your back and see how easily you are able to attain your top speed.

Chances are, however, that it was most likely done for cinematography reasons, that it is most likely that they couldn't have him be too far ahead so they can show Cap and BP landing behind him from that angle and still have them be clear to the audience. They likely had to slow the cars, as well, for safety reasons.

You didn't answer anything. You came up with your own numbers by ignoring facts. You were unable to discredit ANY of the facts I brought forward and are now REFUSING to do the math (or did you and just refused to show it knowing that it destroys your entire argument?

Now, I'm not a physics major. I'm just a regular joe that loves to argue but using a basic diagram, I was able to come up with 33.333 feet/s2. That means he reaches DS in 2.75 seconds.

Here are the facts:

WS attained top speed at 0:53 (zipping past cars likely going at around 45mph)
Cap was at 0mph at 0:53
Cap and Bucky attained top equal speeds (of 55mph or 80 feet/s).
Bucky had a 40 foot head start (or so you say, but I'll take your word for it)
Cap trailed by a 100 feet by the time he attained top speed of 55mph or 80 ft/s (w/c equaled WS)
Assuming constant acceleration since we have no choice but to assume this as we have no reason to believe his acceleration fluctuated.

And it is not a question of time here, it is a question of the acceleration needed to be able to reach equal top speeds from rest while only losing a set amount of distance.

Here it is in an easy to read diagram for all of us simple laymen:

Bucky @ 0 second (80 ft/s speed, no accel) = 40 feet head start
Bucky @ 1 second (80 ft/s speed, no accel) = 120 feet travelled
Bucky @ 2 seconds (80 ft/s speed, no accel) = 200 feet travelled
Bucky @ 3 seconds (80 ft/s speed, no accel) = 280 feet travelled

Cap @ 1 second (33.33 ft/s speed, 33.33 ft/s2 accel) = 33.33 feet travelled
Cap @ 2 seconds (66.66 ft speed, 33.33 ft/s2 accel) = 100 feet traveled
Cap @ 3 seconds (capped at 80 ft/s, no accel.). = 180 feet travelled

The above diagram is completely consistent with the scene in question as welll, showing that Cap reached top velocity (reaching WS top speed) within 3 seconds (as they were in full speed pursuit by 0:56).

Feel free to correct the above diagram as I am just a humble layman and have little physics expertise but I think we should call Astner as I don't really trust your physics "expertise" at this point with all the crap you just spouted and with your refusal to accept basic facts that you have been unable to refute so far.

PS. You accused me of not reading your post where you stated that you "agreed with me". Yet when called out to post a quote, you have til now failed to do so. You either owe me a quote or an apology.

Hell, here is Civil War Audi commercial:

https://youtu.be/mhYrHjbwfWE

At 0:56 you can see that the wife is maintaining the speed of 45 mph.

Is that scene canon to the movie? Likely no.

But I can use it as the real-world reference point to state that the average speeds for cars in the real world that drive in that area is 45mph.

On most highways, the slowest you're legally allowed to go is 45mph. Also, iirc they were in the fast lane while they were running, and people don't get in the fast lane unless they're really trying to haul ass.

And before someone says that this scene was in Germany and that German cars use kmh and not mph. Pls refer to 1:00 of the commercial and notice the american plates on the car. And the american family driving it. And american cars definitely use mph. You can bring and use a non-German registered car for up to 3 months in Germany (or was it 6? someone pls check on this).

Originally posted by Nibedicus
And before someone says that this scene was in Germany and that German cars use kmh and not mph. Pls refer to 1:00 of the commercial and notice the american plates on the car. And the american family driving it. And american cars definitely use mph. You can bring and use a non-German registered car for up to 3 months in Germany (or was it 6? someone pls check on this).

Doesn't really matter. Pretty sure freeway speeds in Germany would still be roughly equal to US speed limits if not faster, even if they were in kmh. (Or I might be wrong, never been to Germany).

Originally posted by FrothByte
This is getting out of hand. DS has no feats shooting at moving legs and feat. Cap has plenty feats blocking all incoming gunfire.

Yes, Cap has never gone up against a marksman like DS but DS also has never gone up against an opponent like Steve.

So you can argue physics and math all you want, at the end of the day DS has no feats to support what you're claiming. His marksmen feats in the movie support perfect accuracy on his part. Trying to argue that he cant shoot legs because all he's ever done is shoot perfect headshots just doesn't make any sense. Neither does arguing that Cap can block someone like DS shots perfectly because he's done it against highly inferior shots. People on this forum have joked about the fact that no one ever shoots at Caps legs multiple times. PIS off, thats what would happen. Plus, he's shooting at Cap, not Quicksilver. There is no reason he cant shoot the guy in the leg.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
His marksmen feats in the movie support perfect accuracy on his part. Trying to argue that he cant shoot legs because all he's ever done is shoot perfect headshots just doesn't make any sense. Neither does arguing that Cap can block someone like DS shots perfectly because he's done it against highly inferior shots. People on this forum have joked about the fact that no one ever shoots at Caps legs multiple times. PIS off, thats what would happen. Plus, he's shooting at Cap, not Quicksilver. There is no reason he cant shoot the guy in the leg.

Perfect accuracy against targets that weren't actively trying to avoid getting hit.


See here's where you see the bias. DS has no feats of shooting fast moving objects that were trying to avoid getting shot yet you're willing to believe he can't miss fast moving objects. Cap has feats of blocking all bullets shot at him while he had his shield, yet you're willing to overlook that and say he'll get shot in the legs. See the bias?

Or maybe the fact that Cap has gone up against decent shots before whereas DS has never gone up against a decent fighter before and yet you think DS can easily shoot Cap whereas Cap can't block DS.

Come on, man. You think Cap can somehow advance while blocking his legs? Even his shins and feet? Unlike 99% of the people who shoot Cap, Deadshot won't be aiming for his big shiny shield.

Originally posted by KingD19
Come on, man. You think Cap can somehow advance while blocking his legs? Even his shins and feet? Unlike 99% of the people who shoot Cap, Deadshot won't be aiming for his big shiny shield.

It's not whether or not I think Cap can completely protect his legs, it's that I don't think DS has shown the skill necessary to make such a difficult shot.

I don't think people here understand how hard it is to shoot someone in the legs who's holding a shield.

First off at 50m Cap won't be a big target. His legs will be pretty small targets and they're moving and that's definitely not an easy shot.

But more importantly, the way shields work is that you don't need to actually cover your body part to protect it, you just need to cover line of sight to it, or in this case bullet trajectory.

If Cap puts his shield out in front of him and leans slightly forward, that already covers the bullet trajectory that DS would need to shoot his hips and groin. Might even be enough to block the trajectory to hit his knees. So for DS to hit his knees/thigh area, he would need to kneel down or lie down to get a clear shot.

Which means if DS wants to remain standing up, he'll be limited to just shooting below the knees or so. I can probably explain it better with a diagram but I'm too lazy for that.

Anyway, unless DS has a feat that shows he can easily shoot a fast moving foot or shin within 2-3 seconds before he gets punched in the face, I don't see why people are giving him no limits fallacy.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't think people here understand how hard it is to shoot someone in the legs who's holding a shield.

First off at 50m Cap won't be a big target. His legs will be moving and that's definitely not an easy shot.

But more importantly, the way shields work is that you don't need to actually cover your body part to protect it, you just need to cover line of sight to it, or in this case bullet trajectory.

If Cap puts his shield out in front of him and leans slightly forward, that already covers the bullet trajectory that DS would need to shoot his hips and groin. Might even be enough to block the trajectory to hit his knees. So for DS to hit his knees/thigh area, he would need to kneel down or lie down to get a clear shot.

Which means if DS wants to remain standing up, he'll be limited to just shooting below the knees or so. I can probably explain it better with a diagram but I'm too lazy for that.

He doesn't need to be a big target. Deadshot is lethal at at least 4,000 meters. Also with standard gear he should get his targeting lens which should make the shot even easier. Also, by doing that Cap would have to expose a portion of his skull(from his eyes and up) so he could see, or he'd literally be running blind. And he'd have to bend over pretty far for it to cover his knees based on his size and the shield's size/diameter.

Even shooting him in the shins/feet, shouldn't be too hard. His legs can only move in one direction, no matter how fast he goes. Any side stepping will slow him down drastically and open up other areas to shoot.

And Floyd was confident enough to one-arm snipe Harley from easily beyond 50m, with a hand cannon revolver, at night. He just missed because they were friends.

When it comes to Deadshots accuracy, let me just say this:

Deadshot is the number marksman in the entire DC UNIVERSE...

Just let that sink in for a moment...

Out of all the characters there, all the superhumans, all the assassins; Deadshot is the better than all of them as pertains marksmanship...

As a result, I think this is one of those rare situations where "no limits fallacy" doesnt apply; atleast to targets within his 4000 meter kill range...

Thats over 2 miles of virtually flawless accuracy folks...

Originally posted by KingD19
Come on, man. You think Cap can somehow advance while blocking his legs? Even his shins and feet? Unlike 99% of the people who shoot Cap, Deadshot won't be aiming for his big shiny shield.

I can completely agree with this...

Originally posted by Arachnid1
His marksmen feats in the movie support perfect accuracy on his part. Trying to argue that he cant shoot legs because all he's ever done is shoot perfect headshots just doesn't make any sense. Neither does arguing that Cap can block someone like DS shots perfectly because he's done it against highly inferior shots. People on this forum have joked about the fact that no one ever shoots at Caps legs multiple times. PIS off, thats what would happen. Plus, he's shooting at Cap, not Quicksilver. There is no reason he cant shoot the guy in the leg.

Originally posted by KingD19
He doesn't need to be a big target. Deadshot is lethal at at least 4,000 meters. Also with standard gear he should get his targeting lens which should make the shot even easier. Also, by doing that Cap would have to expose a portion of his skull(from his eyes and up) so he could see, or he'd literally be running blind. And he'd have to bend over pretty far for it to cover his knees based on his size and the shield's size/diameter.

Even shooting him in the shins/feet, shouldn't be too hard. His legs can only move in one direction, no matter how fast he goes. Any side stepping will slow him down drastically and open up other areas to shoot.

And Floyd was confident enough to one-arm snipe Harley from easily beyond 50m, with a hand cannon revolver, at night. He just missed because they were friends.

Ah, lethal at 4000 meters. With what kind of gun. Sniper rifle? Did he get prep? What was the location? Was he shooting at someone who was walking out in the open?

Unless you can answer all that, then that factoid is moot in this fight. We are going by feats here and DS has ZERO feats to support that he can shoot a fast moving target that's trying to avoid him.

If you think I'm wrong, all you need to do is supply the feats.

Sure sounds like a lot of ppl posting here have never even held a gun.

Hitting stationary targets and hitting moving targets and hitting moving targets that are actively defending against you (ducking and finding cover) are different levels of difficulty. With exponentially higher levels of difficulty. And quickshooting a very fast moving target actively trying to defend against you that is bringing its own cover forcing you to target the smaller, even faster moving parts at 50 meters within 2 seconds? That is not easy at all. Even well trained marksmen will miss more often than not when trying to hit moving actively defending targets. Go ahead and ask one. The problem is, too many ppl here base their knowledge on what they see in movies where characters never seem to miss hitting moving targets. Heck many don't understand the basic concept of LOS.

Not to mention that those are all different skillsets. Hitting a stationary or slow moving target does not translate to hitting a fast moving target actively defending target.

And Cap has a freakin wealth of showings that point to him being able to dodge, block and defend against gunfire from multiple angles/shooters and from just about every range out there, from a variety of ranged weapons. He does this instinctively and with no difficulty on his part. And yet somehow, DS completely negates this without ever having to provide any "feat" that supports this.

Someone needs to show me the "feats" that DS have that support these assertions. Post it. Because the target range showing is just not enough for me.

Right now all I hear a whole lotta no-limits fallacies.

@Nib

Two questions for you:

1) Have you seen Suicide Squad yet?
2) Have you shot a gun?


I can answer yes to both of those questions (I own a 22 caliber rifle and a 38)...

If you saw the target practice scene, you know that Deadshots accuracy is off the charts good; no human on this Earth (in the real world or comicbook/movie world for that matter) can even remotely come close to what Deadshot displayed during that scene...

Yes they were stationary targets, but they were at various distances, and Deadshot shot multiple weapons (none of which were calibrated to him), and yet every single round hit every target in the exact same place perfectly (all absolutely perfect headshots right between the eyes and not a single round was off in the slightest)...

Over 100 rounds...

Thats crazy, insane, OMFG-did-you-see-that, good...

If you have done target practice, then you'd be able to appreciate and be in awe of what Deadshot did during that scene...

That was godlike (and in this case, that is NOT hyperbole)...


If you saw the movie (and the above described sequence) how on Earth can you conclude that Deadshot couldnt hit any exposed portion of Caps body at will is beyond me...

And btw Nib, Deadshot hit multiple moving targets, in rapid succession, with perfect headshots...

And he did it continuously...


This is absolutely superhuman...

Yes, you are seeing no limits arguments on the pro-Deadshot side, but seeing what Deadshot can do with a gun and knowing that "perfect aim" is essentially his superpower, I think the pro Deadshot arguments are valid...

Atleast to within his stated range of accuracy; 4000 meters...


Thats absolutely insane Nib...

Deadshot is the number 1 marksman in the entire DC Universe for a reason...

Just think about that when you try to argue what he cant do with a gun in his hands...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Nib

Two questions for you:

1) Have you seen Suicide Squad yet?
2) Have you shot a gun?


I can answer yes to both of those questions (I own a 22 caliber rifle and a 38)...

If you saw the target practice scene, you know that Deadshots accuracy is off the charts good; no human on this Earth (in the real world or comicbook/movie world for that matter) can even remotely come close to what Deadshot displayed during that scene...

Yes they were stationary targets, but they were at various distances, and Deadshot shot multiple weapons (none of which were calibrated to him), and yet every single round hit every target in the exact same place perfectly (all absolutely perfect headshots right between the eyes and not a single round was off in the slightest)...

Over 100 rounds...

Thats crazy, insane, OMFG-did-you-see-that, good...

If you have done target practice, then you'd be able to appreciate and be in awe of what Deadshot did during that scene...

That was godlike (and in this case, that is NOT hyperbole)...


If you saw the movie (and the above described sequence) how on Earth can you conclude that Deadshot couldnt hit any exposed portion of Caps body at will is beyond me...

And btw Nib, Deadshot hit multiple moving targets, in rapid succession, with perfect headshots...

And he did it continuously...


This is absolutely superhuman...

Yes, you are seeing no limits arguments on the pro-Deadshot side, but seeing what Deadshot can do with a gun and knowing that "perfect aim" is essentially his superpower, I think the pro Deadshot arguments are valid...

Atleast to within his stated range of accuracy; 4000 meters...


Thats absolutely insane Nib...

Deadshot is the number 1 marksman in the entire DC Universe for a reason...

Just think about that when you try to argue what he cant do with a gun in his hands...

Question 1: Do you think shooting at targets in the range is similar to shooting a moving target who's actively trying to hurt you?

Question 2: Do you think truly believe that he's able to hit anything at 4000 meters with just his regular guns without any prep?

Question 3: Have you ever used a shield?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Question 1: Do you think shooting at targets in the range is similar to shooting a moving target who's actively trying to hurt you?

Question 2: Do you think truly believe that he's able to hit anything at 4000 meters with just his regular guns without any prep?

Question 3: Have you ever used a shield?

1) Of course not, but he did do exactly as you describe during the sequence where he took over the battle and virtually stopped the zombie/creature/whatever-the-heck-they-were single handedly...

And during that sequence he delivered perfect headshots continuously to moving targets that meant him and his team harm...


2) Yes, thats what the movie directly tells us...

The movie tells us he's accurate out to 4000 meters...


3) No, I've never used a shield...

As of 2009, a UK sniper named Craig Harrison used a L115A3(at 914m beyond the rifles recommended range) took out not one, but 2 Taliban insurgents with back to back shots at a range of 2,475 meters.

So if a real guy can make a shot like that well beyond the supposed effective range of his standard issue weapon(with no prep), why is Deadshot's on-screen statement, and one of the reasons Waller pulled him into the SS in question?

Oh, and his "regular" guns are all pretty heavily customized and unique to him. He seems to have them as standard, but for him a regular sniper rifle would probably work almost as good.

Originally posted by KingD19
As of 2009, a UK sniper named Craig Harrison used a L115A3(at 914m beyond the rifles recommended range) took out not one, but 2 Taliban insurgents with back to back shots at a range of 2,475 meters.

So if a real guy can make a shot like that well beyond the supposed effective range of his standard issue weapon(with no prep), why is Deadshot's on-screen statement, and one of the reasons Waller pulled him into the SS in question?

Oh, and his "regular" guns are all pretty heavily customized and unique to him. He seems to have them as standard, but for him a regular sniper rifle would probably work almost as good.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Nib

Two questions for you:

1) Have you seen Suicide Squad yet?
2) Have you shot a gun?


I can answer yes to both of those questions (I own a 22 caliber rifle and a 38)...

If you saw the target practice scene, you know that Deadshots accuracy is off the charts good; no human on this Earth (in the real world or comicbook/movie world for that matter) can even remotely come close to what Deadshot displayed during that scene...

Yes they were stationary targets, but they were at various distances, and Deadshot shot multiple weapons (none of which were calibrated to him), and yet every single round hit every target in the exact same place perfectly (all absolutely perfect headshots right between the eyes and not a single round was off in the slightest)...

Over 100 rounds...

Thats crazy, insane, OMFG-did-you-see-that, good...

If you have done target practice, then you'd be able to appreciate and be in awe of what Deadshot did during that scene...

That was godlike (and in this case, that is NOT hyperbole)...


If you saw the movie (and the above described sequence) how on Earth can you conclude that Deadshot couldnt hit any exposed portion of Caps body at will is beyond me...

And btw Nib, Deadshot hit multiple moving targets, in rapid succession, with perfect headshots...

And he did it continuously...


This is absolutely superhuman...

Yes, you are seeing no limits arguments on the pro-Deadshot side, but seeing what Deadshot can do with a gun and knowing that "perfect aim" is essentially his superpower, I think the pro Deadshot arguments are valid...

Atleast to within his stated range of accuracy; 4000 meters...


Thats absolutely insane Nib...

Deadshot is the number 1 marksman in the entire DC Universe for a reason...

Just think about that when you try to argue what he cant do with a gun in his hands...

Sadly no, was sick during the weekend i was supposed to watch (it with the flu) and I don't pirate movies so I'll have to wait til it comes out on Bluray.

Fortunately, the feats in question are in YT for all to see. Tho, I will admit the zombie instance (where he shot targets at short range) is kinda of terrible quality. I have also seen (and posted the batman instance) and seen his deflection shot as well. But feel free to provide the "feats" I missed.

You own a gun? Ever been to a range? Got trained? If so, good. This will make it easier to explain things. Wish Time was here, I know he must have gotten marksmanship training.

Yes, I understand the level of difficulty involved in hitting a stationary target repeatedly inside the same spot. Even at a target range. Especially using a rifle at full auto (as you'll need to compensate for recoil on each round). Utterly superhuman, yes.

But so is the ability to deflect enemy fire from multiple angles with a shield as well as to anticipate gunfire froma pistol at short range and at high speed. You will need to acknowledge that Cap's defenses are superhuman as well.

You also need to acknowledge that hitting a moving, actively defending target is entirely different. That even expert marksmen would miss against targets in cover avoiding fire. And that hitting moving targets is an entirely different set of skills than shooting at a target range as there is a level of anticipation of where your target's next position will be (any hunter would know this) and that an aware, actively defending target (especially a target that knows what they're doing) makes it extemely difficult to hit precisely due to the unpredictability of their movements. At that point, it will be mostly luck.

There are different skillsets involved. There is accuracy, rangefinding, target acquisition, recoil compensation and (in the case of moving targets) ability to anticipate. Of course, I might have missed some and gotten the wording wrong as I am dictating purely from memory (and that was a long time ago) and I was taught in my native tongue. I remember my instructor used to test me on target acquisition by making me face away from the target, he'd yell "go!" And I'd turn around and fire as soon as I see the target and he'd check how many I'd get center mass. I wasn't a good shot (below average, actually) but that was one thing I was good at.

If you've ever gotten trained using a gun (hell, even if you play a bit of paintball) then you know these things and I'm sure we can both agree?

Now, it comes down to weighing DS's level of superhuman marksmanship skill vs Cap's superhuman defenses. I think here is our point of contention?

Basically, I think the that level of difficulty works against DS here, a fast moving, aware, actively defending target with most of his body behind cover with vulnerable parts moving at an unpredictable manner. DS has 2 seconds to pull off the shot before the target is on him, Cap, races shield to his side, DS raises his gun (w/c Cap,would see), aims and fires (at human speed as no one has provided and above human "feats" of quick draw), Cap anticipates it and blocks his first salvo, (if DS is in character) as it would likely be a headshot/center mass (as he is trained to do) and would likely get blocked. He has shown on screen to get flustered when his shots don't hit like they normall do (As per his encounter with Batman) and would likely waste a precious second or split second reassesing his tactics (yes ppl do need time to think when faced with an unfamiliar situation) before aiming for the legs. By this time, Cap would have covered the distance needed to safely aim block (within 50 feet IMO) him, slowly advance while defending and WTFOWN him.