Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

*Force Only*

Both at their peaks, neutral settings; who wins and why?

Maul.

Force only, leaning Satele.

Maul wrecks.

Originally posted by ILS
Maul wrecks.

This.

It's a good fight honestly.

Yeah Maul actually

Even if I would LOVE to say Satele because I enjoy her way more, we all have to go for Maul simply because he wins.

Satele, actually.

:mmm;

Peak Satele wins via force

Actually I retract that; not sure tbh

Draw. Maul kills Satele then trips over her corpse and dies.

What has Maul done with the Force to put him on Satele's level?

Originally posted by KingD19
What has Maul done with the Force to put him on Satele's level?

While Maul's showings aren't quite as flashy as Satele's, the implied significance behind them puts him on her level if not above imo. This is not accounting for Satele's showings in KOTFE since the speculation that the Satele we saw is Valkorion.

Satele coming from Revan's bloodline and having the the title of grandmaster do imply that her raw power may be greater than that of Maul, but this disparity is negligible imo since Maul possesses the title of one of the greatest sith assassins in history, and Maul's tutelage under the most powerful sith in history, and being considered a worthy successor would suggest great force power. Maul's bloodline has a healthy amount of force power behind it too, given that maul's brother Savage is the TK beast we've seen in TCW and maul's mother is Talzin herself.

Satele's feats are impressive, her force augmentation that allows her to blitz sith warriors and having her movement be compared to a cannonball are good. Her tutaminis feat with the lightsaber is nice, and her throwing Malgus into a mountain and then pulverizing the side of the mountain is probably her best TK feat.

Maul matches all of these feats imo however ( besides the TK one); Maul's speed enhancement that allows him to blitz droids, mercs, and Komari Vosa along with easily contending with Anoon Bondara and Qui-Gon imply to me that he can match Satele's speed. Maul has no showings with force lighting, nor does he have many showings with energy attacks if at all iirc, but this just means Satele will have nothing to absorb, and since this is a force only bout, no lightsabers. This means no extra energy Satele can supply to her own force attacks btw. And while what Satele did to malgus was impressive, I think Maul can tank her TK (if she even has the opportunity to pull it off) given his impressive endurance : Killing a Wampa after being mauled (heh) by it, tanking a fall that would break an ordinary man's back in TPM, and ofc, surviving being bisected and coming back stronger. Not to mention Maul has his own showings of TK like pulling that ship off a cliff in TCW, breaking through Kenobi's defenses in Sith Hunters, and shoving Kenobi with enough force to crumble a tunnel in TCW.

In conclusion, I think this this would be a good fight, but Satele has nothing that could put Maul down imo, and even stands at risk of enraging Maul with her attacks, in which case I think Maul would have the upperhand. Maul takes the majority.

Not even, honestly. Maul is the son of Talzin, and is a member of the Order of the Sith Lords himself.

CoD.

Originally posted by Kurk
Actually I retract that; not sure tbh You are a mess.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Draw. Maul kills Satele then trips over her corpse and dies.

Rebels Maul does, yeah

Leaning Satele. Maul has a great advantage in his insane durability, but rarely ever does the one taking the insane beating outlast the one giving it to the extent they can go on to win the fight.

Yes, I am implying Maul would be the one taking the beating. Proceed with the "kek"ing if you so desire.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Satele, actually.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Satele, actually.

This. And Maul wrecking? I'm hoping that's not serious.

Ragdolling Kenobi impresses me more than anything Shan did, tbh.

Maul doesn't do Force, he only does lightsaber

What if he uses the Force to shove a lightsaber up Satele Shan's ass? mmm

Originally posted by MythLord
Ragdolling Kenobi impresses me more than anything Shan did, tbh.


I'd say his Force push that sent Kenobi flying and caused a cave in, is comparable to Satele's force push and pin against Malgus in the Hope trailer.

Well, the cliff-destroying blast was pretty good, but it all happened whilst she was amped by absorbing the lightsaber's energies. Though the fact that she did manage the absorb the blade and presumably grew in the decades to come is very impressive.

Meh, an injured Kylo Ren deflected lightsabers without so much as batting an eyelash... Not quite as impressive as absorbing it, but still...

It's nowhere near as good as absorbing it.

I mean he did stop a friggin lightsaber just by outstretching his hand while in a conflicted state and mental/physical wreck.

Originally posted by MythLord
I mean he did stop a friggin lightsaber just by outstretching his hand while in a conflicted state and mental/physical wreck.


facepalm

That Lightsaber fight was so forced into the movie. "hey lets's have Kylo injured so our heroes can get into a Laser Sword fight with him." No need for it at all.

Would be happy to three man NewG, Nova and Ant on this later if we're seriously considering Satele as a contender here.

Well, I'd like to see what your argument is, first.

I'm not debating anything that relies on scaling off the Bane quote.

Originally posted by MythLord
Ragdolling Kenobi impresses me more than anything Shan did, tbh.

Maul takes Force and everything else.

This is force only, so I guess her anal virginity?

Woops lmfao

That's what Maul said when he put it in the wrong hole.


Wait nm, he doesn't have the tools anymore.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, I'd like to see what your argument is, first.

I'm not debating anything that relies on scaling off the Bane quote. As if that's really necessary

Originally posted by ILS
As if that's really necessary

Well, I've still yet to hear a case. I'm all ears.

Oh, and it better not be a potential-based argument. There's a quote which suggests that Dooku would've equaled Yoda had he stayed in the Order.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not even, honestly. Maul is the son of Talzin, and is a member of the Order of the Sith Lords himself.

I mentioned that, which is why I said the raw power difference wouldn't matter.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, I've still yet to hear a case. I'm all ears.

Oh, and it better not be a potential-based argument. There's a quote which suggests that Dooku would've equaled Yoda had he stayed in the Order. Maul just has better feats? Especially when powerscaled off Savage and Kenobi.

Maul.

Maul, honestly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are a mess.
moron I was leaning Satele then I reconsidered. You should be thanking me for giving Maul a chance.

Quanchi112 is a failure. He can't even manage a single apprentice for a week.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul just has better feats? Especially when powerscaled off Savage and Kenobi.

This doesn't prove that he'd wreck at all, lmfao. Satele's more powerful than either of them as well.

Why do you think that, you poor soul?

Why do I think that Satele's more powerful than Savage and Obi-Wan?

Yes.

I suppose feats isn't a valid claim?

Yeah, honestly, Obi or Savage should at least rival Shan in power.

Not too sure whether or not I give Satele the win here anymore, but she's definitely above Obi-Wan and Savage in pure Force mastery.

Mastery, perhaps, but I'm not sure if she's ahead of them in magnitude, tbh.

Mate please, Jensaarai thinks Satele > Yoda in Force and Sabers so she obvs wins

He actually said she's > him in sabers and = in the Force, which is ridiculous.

Originally posted by MythLord
Mastery, perhaps, but I'm not sure if she's ahead of them in magnitude, tbh.

Magnitude's to do with mastery as well.

And shattering mountains pre-prime doesn't convince you that she's ahead of them in magnitude?

Originally posted by MythLord
He actually said she's > him in sabers and = in the Force, which is ridiculous.

Yup, wonder how Chilled can defend this nonsense...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Magnitude's to do with mastery as well.

Not really. Traya's demonstrated more mastery with her TK than Vader, yet I doubt she's the better telekinetic.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And shattering mountains pre-prime doesn't convince you that she's ahead of them in magnitude?

Damaging an exterior portion of a hill while amplified = shattering mountains, apparently.

Needless to say, getting amped by a lightsaber, then charging power to break a large chunk of rock hardly impresses me as much as most of Obi's or Savage's hype or feats.

Shattering a prison cell forged from Beskar > anyway

Originally posted by MythLord
Not really. Traya's demonstrated more mastery with her TK than Vader, yet I doubt she's the better telekinetic.

I was referring to a broad mastery of the Force, not individual powers, but even then, Vader's greater command of telekinesis could well be described as greater mastery.



'Twas following Jace Malcolm describing it as Satele "dropping a mountain" on Malgus in Annihilation.

It's a bit hard to see precisely how much was destroyed, but if you pause as the blast zooms towards Malgus, you'll notice that the cliff face is pretty big.

Regarding being amped, sure, but she grew vastly following Hope. Given her potential as a descendant of Revan, and the fact that I recall it being stated that she retreated to study after the war, it's pretty easy to imagine that she was growing in power over that time. She retreats to study with Darth Marr in the KotFE period, too, which results in growth and study over 35 years. I'd certainly put that well over the amp received from the lightsaber. As for charging up power, she was also pinning Malgus with the Force. I'd say they counteract one another.

We're also forgetting that the fact that Satele can even Absorb a lightsaber blade's energy by Hope alone is incredibly impressive. Around the same time, she calls down a tree in short order whilst engaged in a saber lock against Malgus, which is also pretty good.

Then there's her freezing objects in the midst of a fight with mere looks, which I don't think Obi-Wan or Savage or even Maul have ever managed. Her apparent teleporting is also going to be an asset here. I'm reconsidering whether or not Satele can win, now, but she's not getting curbed ala Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I was referring to a broad mastery of the Force, not individual powers, but even then, Vader's greater command of telekinesis could well be described as greater mastery.

Honestly, Traya's master of TK just seems superior to Vader's IMHO; I mean, she essentially doesn't even need to raise a finger to perform most of her feats.

Originally posted by SunRazer
'Twas following Jace Malcolm describing it as Satele "dropping a mountain" on Malgus in Annihilation.

https://youtu.be/IomiOdc62HQ?t=418


Originally posted by SunRazer
The section of mountain that was destroyed was still pretty good.

It wasn't that big, tbh. I mean, she left a massive dent on a hillside which is pretty good for say a Jedi Knight, but I don't think it's anything spectacular.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Regarding being amped, sure, but she grew vastly following Hope. Given her potential as a descendant of Revan, and the fact that I recall it being stated that she retreated to study after the war, it's pretty easy to imagine that she was growing in power over that time. She retreats to study with Darth Marr in the KotFE period, too, which results in growth and study over 35 years. I'd certainly put that well over the amp received from the lightsaber.

Meh, lightsabers are actually pretty extreme energy sources, tbh. Although I do agree her growth more than made up for the amp... but by how much? Enough to perform the feat again, perhaps less difficulty, but I still don't see that as dwarfing Kenobi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As for charging up power, she was also pinning Malgus with the Force. I'd say they counteract one another.

From what I recall, she didn't keep him pinned when she charged her second way, just that by the time Malgus recovered she had already sent out the other wave.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We're also forgetting that the fact that Satele can even Absorb a lightsaber blade's energy by Hope alone is incredibly impressive.

When an injured Kylo Ren in such a traumatic state could've blocked lightsaber strikes with his hands, I don't see why that's outside the capabilities of someone more powerful and masterful than him like Maul couldn't do the same. This also doesn't apply to TK.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Around the same time, she calls down a tree in short order whilst engaged in a saber lock against Malgus, which is also pretty good.

She crushed the base of the tree. I'd say Kenobi utterly crushing two durasteel droids without so much as batting an eyelash is better.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Then there's her freezing objects in the midst of a fight with mere looks, which I don't think Obi-Wan or Savage or even Maul have ever managed. Her apparent teleporting is also going to be an asset here. I'm reconsidering whether or not Satele can win, now, but she's not getting curbed ala Obi-Wan.

Just because they didn't doesn't mean they can. I mean, I'm pretty sure they can stun things with TK.

Originally posted by ILS
Shattering a prison cell forged from Beskar > anyway

Just curious, but has beskar in TCW demonstrated the defensive properties of beskar in other sources? I recall Mandalorians being wrecked by blaster shots and lightsaber strikes, but not so much of the armor being impervious to them.

Originally posted by ILS
Shattering a prison cell forged from Beskar > anyway

Never happened.

Originally posted by MythLord
Honestly, Traya's master of TK just seems superior to Vader's IMHO; I mean, she essentially doesn't even need to raise a finger to perform most of her feats.



https://youtu.be/IomiOdc62HQ?t=418




It wasn't that big, tbh. I mean, she left a massive dent on a hillside which is pretty good for say a Jedi Knight, but I don't think it's anything spectacular.



Meh, lightsabers are actually pretty extreme energy sources, tbh. Although I do agree her growth more than made up for the amp... but by how much? Enough to perform the feat again, perhaps less difficulty, but I still don't see that as dwarfing Kenobi.



From what I recall, she didn't keep him pinned when she charged her second way, just that by the time Malgus recovered she had already sent out the other wave.



When an injured Kylo Ren in such a traumatic state could've blocked lightsaber strikes with his hands, I don't see why that's outside the capabilities of someone more powerful and masterful than him like Maul couldn't do the same. This also doesn't apply to TK.



She crushed the base of the tree. I'd say Kenobi utterly crushing two durasteel droids without so much as batting an eyelash is better.



Just because they didn't doesn't mean they can. I mean, I'm pretty sure they can stun things with TK.

Kylo did actually create a barrier to tank Rey's lightsaber strikes, much like the Outlander doing it in the latest KotFE chapter, the junior novel's description of the events pretty clearly point to that and it's consistent with the Visual Guide noting that Kylo's TK defenses are immense.

Meh, Tutaminis still isn't translatable to TK, unless Yarael Poof can ragdoll Starkiller.

Originally posted by MythLord
Honestly, Traya's master of TK just seems superior to Vader's IMHO; I mean, she essentially doesn't even need to raise a finger to perform most of her feats.

Well, if we're going off dialogue files, some or most of that might just be animation bugging. Also, doesn't Vader perform numerous TK feats without gesturing?



Any size estimates?



She'd perform the feat again without the need for external amplification. That's beyond Obi-Wan, too.



Well, he wasn't able to leap out of the way or anything, and he's screaming whilst still being in place. Seems like Satele held him there to me.



Sorry, but numerous Jedi deflect lightsaber blades whilst exhausted or weakened. Absorbing a lightsaber blade is an entirely different prospect and a far superior display of Force mastery. You're not just letting the blade bounce off your hands, you're actually channeling the sheer power of the blade into yourself. It's an incredible showing, and the fact that Satele had 35 years to grow afterwards puts her very high up.

Also, it does apply to TK. Satele's mastery of the Force clearly applies to TK as much as it does to Tutaminis. She can convert that energy.



Nah. Satele was currently strained in a saberlock with Malgus. That justfies her greater effort, and she didn't just crush the tree base, she also yanked the tree her way.

This does remind me - was Obi-Wan doing the same or something similar in his vaunted showing with the trees? Kind of reduces how impressive it is.



Obviously they can freeze things. With mere looks? That's a bit different.

She's also equal with Marr, who's probably above Baras, and certainly above Fulminiss, who could disintegrate cities, albeit under suspect and likely ritual-oriented means.

I'll respond later, Nova. BTW, padawans turned Dark Jedi have devastated several cities

Originally posted by MythLord
Meh, Tutaminis still isn't translatable to TK, unless Yarael Poof can ragdoll Starkiller.

If this is aimed at me, I'm just saying that Kylo used TK- not tutamis, deflection or stopping the swing of the lightsaber - to stop Rey's strikes from killing him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
This doesn't prove that he'd wreck at all, lmfao. Satele's more powerful than either of them as well. I never said he would wreck lol but he certainly wins.

Wollf:

It's true.

No, she doesn't. The "ma look, no hands!" logic is as retarded as it comes.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, she doesn't. The "ma look, no hands!" logic is as retarded as it comes.



Lana ****ing Beniko did Tk without gesture.

One better, Lycan, a minor character killed a group of guys without gesturing either.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
No, she doesn't. The "ma look, no hands!" logic is as retarded as it comes.


Vader does it throughout ESB anyway.

Yeah he was legit the first guy to do it in Star Wars.

He also Force chokes a guy from space through nothing but an audio link.

I'm not yet saying Satele wins, but what has Maul done with the Force that impresses people so much?

Blowing away an army (albeit with Savage's aid, but we are talking 100+ strong); being able to level a building with a Force scream age 15; gesturelessly manipulating boulders, being more powerful than Savage; he also got cools tats.

Maul pinned Sidious to a wall with TK in an unused scene during their TCW fight. Despite what you think, it is canon

No it's not.

Then neither is Ahsoka tanking his lightning

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah he was legit the first guy to do it in Star Wars.

He also Force chokes a guy from space through nothing but an audio link.

First guy to do TK period in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Petrus
I'm not yet saying Satele wins, but what has Maul done with the Force that impresses people so much? All of what Beni said, plus collapsing a huge tunnel, ripping a shuttle from a cliff while dealing with an amputated leg, being shot at, and carrying Savage, surviving being cut in half in a near-enough unprecedented display of Force Rage mastery, etc.

He also tanked an explosion that vaporized Anoon Bondara, and after dealing with the aftershock of said explosion, slowed his descent by manipulating gravity and weaved between 100 feet of building-ledges and other obstacles. Also, if you read some of the pre-TPM material he's in, his Force Sense and other mental abilities are pretty impressive.

Then there's the fact Anakin, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Dooku and potentially others all sensed something profoundly "sinister" rippling through the Force, simply because Savage was on his way to meet Maul in Season 4 of TCW.

That, and ragdolling Obi-Wan, one of the most impressive Jedi there is to debate. Twice, without unfair circumstances.

:umad:

Tbh, if everything ILS says is true, Maul should take this.

I need to get a zip folder with all of maul's force shit from comics, but here's the text stuff:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11QQsVSAmA3heIduRj5GuuuQVGGZCzkOEB3XK_zDCwEU/edit?usp=sharing

Originally posted by MythLord
Then neither is Ahsoka tanking his lightning Nice try, but that scene has actually been overwritten by Dave's description of the fight, whereas those sketches have been used to inform ongoing continuity.

Still ain't canon unless it happens in the novel... and it won't since Dave likes suckling Palpatine's shaft.

Why not? Palpatine's lightning is 1000x weaker in canon.

Originally posted by MythLord
Still ain't canon unless it happens in the novel... and it won't since Dave likes suckling Palpatine's shaft. Call it what you like, but if he didn't consider it accurate he wouldn't have given it along with a bunch of other stuff to Johnson to work off.

Regardless, this is off topic, save it for when Ahsoka is pushing the shit in of one of your faves.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless, this is off topic, save it for when Ahsoka is pushing the shit in of one of your faves.
like Shaak Ti

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, if we're going off dialogue files, some or most of that might just be animation bugging. Also, doesn't Vader perform numerous TK feats without gesturing?

Nah, Vader legit needs his hands outstretched just to choke fodder. Traya doesn't appear to, tbh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Any size estimates? She'd perform the feat again without the need for external amplification. That's beyond Obi-Wan, too.

Should be sizeable, but nothing too impressive. Especially when you consider her amplification in question; Corran Horn, a relatively "meh" telekinetic, having less exposure to a lightsaber and drawing on it with tutaminis, was capable of holding back a massive landslide ala Mace Windu.

He goes from a telekinetically hindered individual to top tier Jedi Master with less exposure to a lightsaber, and still has a more impressive feat than Shan.

I'd say that, while Shan could probably do it again, it won't be without at least some effort on her part. And yes, that's all within Kenobi's range of capabilities.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, he wasn't able to leap out of the way or anything, and he's screaming whilst still being in place. Seems like Satele held him there to me.

He probably didn't leap away because he just took a grenade and Force Wave to the face. By the time she unleashed her second wave, she seems to have let go of Malgus completely.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sorry, but numerous Jedi deflect lightsaber blades whilst exhausted or weakened. Absorbing a lightsaber blade is an entirely different prospect and a far superior display of Force mastery. You're not just letting the blade bounce off your hands, you're actually channeling the sheer power of the blade into yourself. It's an incredible showing, and the fact that Satele had 35 years to grow afterwards puts her very high up.

Given how Corran Horn was absorbing lightsaber energies pretty damn early in his Jedi career, I don't think it's a "much wow" feat as many try to show it as. Channeling said power would've amplified her more than strained her, the only problem would be

And while it's a great showing of her versatility or mastery, I doubt it automatically translates to Maul esque TK.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, it does apply to TK. Satele's mastery of the Force clearly applies to TK as much as it does to Tutaminis. She can convert that energy.

Yarael Poof is a planet-buster by this logic

Besides, it's not like she'll be absorbing any lightsabers here to go all "side of a hill" buster on Maul.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah. Satele was currently strained in a saberlock with Malgus. That justfies her greater effort, and she didn't just crush the tree base, she also yanked the tree her way.
This does remind me - was Obi-Wan doing the same or something similar in his vaunted showing with the trees? Kind of reduces how impressive it is.

Actually, I rewatched the fight and while she was bladelocking with Malgus -- which excuses the drain -- she also just crushed the base enough then moved out of the way, then the tree fell.

And Kenobi didn't crush the base, he completely knocked the ships over.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Obviously they can freeze things. With mere looks? That's a bit different.

I recall a teenage Maul levitating a boulder and holding it in place without even needing to look at it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She's also equal with Marr, who's probably above Baras, and certainly above Fulminiss, who could disintegrate cities, albeit under suspect and likely ritual-oriented means.

*According to legend, he can disintegrate cities... but then again so could a padawan-turned-Dark Jedi. Unless you wanna claim any competent Force user is city level(which I'd love, personally ) I don't think that logic would work.

Originally posted by MythLord
Corran Horn, a relatively "meh" telekinetic, having less exposure to a lightsaber and drawing on it with tutaminis, was capable of holding back a massive landslide ala Mace Windu.

He goes from a telekinetically hindered individual to top tier Jedi Master with less exposure to a lightsaber, and still has a more impressive feat than Shan.

Given how Corran Horn was absorbing lightsaber energies pretty damn early in his Jedi career, I don't think it's a "much wow" feat as many try to show it as.

Corran Horn has a unique gift for tutaminis. That's hardly a fair comparison.


Originally posted by MythLord
*According to legend, he can disintegrate cities... but then again so could a padawan-turned-Dark Jedi.

Who are you talking about?

Wollf, I'll respond to you later.

Originally posted by ILS
Then there's the fact Anakin, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Dooku and potentially others all sensed something profoundly "sinister" rippling through the Force, simply because Savage was on his way to meet Maul in Season 4 of TCW.

Do you take these things as inherent displays of power, or the Force simply reacting in response to certain events and Jedi being able to pick up these reactions?

Because the Exile's natural power progression was making Nihilus sense her from across the galaxy, lol. And Ragnos' spirit coming back sent shockwaves throughout the Force that manifested in the form of nightmares to Odan-Urr. IIRC, Malak coming towards the Leviathan was doing something similar.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Corran Horn has a unique gift for tutaminis. That's hardly a fair comparison.




Who are you talking about?

Yeah, but that just means he can absorb from a greater array of energy sources, they still both drew on the power of a lightsaber, i.e. the same energy source. So it shouldn't matter because they'd be amplified similarly.

I'm talking about Kibh Jeen.