Chaos King Hercules vs Promethean Giant Geridath

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golem370
Maybe a good fight maybe not.

Jmanghan
bump

Galan007
Not sure what "Chaos King Hercules" is? We talking SuperGod Herc?

If so, he stomps.

golem370
Yes.

Astner
I thought the reborn Hercules was supposed to be around Sky-father level.

Edit: Never-mind It's said "All-father," not Sky-father.

http://i.imgur.com/qYKpH3a.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/apIxsTHm.jpg

zopzop
Originally posted by Astner
I thought the reborn Hercules was supposed to be around Sky-father level.

Edit: Never-mind It's said "All-father," not Sky-father.

http://i.imgur.com/qYKpH3a.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/apIxsTHm.jpg
The title is sort of meaningless. Even Odin's been called "All Father".

Astner
How powerful do you think Hercules was?

zopzop
Originally posted by Astner
How powerful do you think Hercules was?
He was a multiversal power. After CK destroyed the overwhelming majority of the multiverse, CW Hercules restored it.

Astner
Originally posted by zopzop
He was a multiversal power. After CK destroyed the overwhelming majority of the multiverse, CW Hercules restored it.
He gave up his power to restore the universe, not the multiverse.

http://i.imgur.com/1HXF8Ky.jpg

Source: Chaos War #5.

http://i.imgur.com/PlngnEMm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ocnfxEim.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/l6zvWnam.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/4mGeylFm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/WRf4uPSm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/0eSAMTgm.jpg

operator616
It was stated in the arc that CK destroyed the majority of the multiverse and herc restored everything that CK consumed.

Oblivion further confirmed it in Thor annual. I guess the term universe was used interchangeably with the multiverse in this instance.

Astner
Originally posted by operator616
It was stated in the arc that CK destroyed the majority of the multiverse
This is correct.

Originally posted by operator616
and herc restored everything that CK consumed.
I don't remember ever reading that.

Originally posted by operator616
Oblivion further confirmed it in Thor annual.
No. The Mighty Thor Annual #1 only confirmed that the Chaos King sought to destroy the multiverse, it said nothing about Hercules restoring it.

operator616
Originally posted by Astner

I don't remember ever reading that.



It was shown on panel how he restored everything back, including Nightmare's realm which is a separate universe and is as big as 616.

It was also stated in a handbook iirc.

Edit: Scan.

http://imgur.com/fx9mc2f

Originally posted by Astner
No. The Mighty Thor Annual #1 only confirmed that the Chaos King sought to destroy the multiverse, it said nothing about Hercules restoring it.

It said that the multiverse came close to ending.

So Herc only restored one universe and the rest of the multiverse just magically re-appeared, is what you're saying?

Astner
Originally posted by operator616
It was shown on panel how he restored everything back, including Nightmare's realm which is a separate universe and is as big as 616.
The Dream Dimension didn't look to be any different than Hades or any other hidden realm the Chaos King invaded.

Originally posted by operator616
It was also stated in a handbook iirc.
I'd like to see it.

Originally posted by operator616
So Herc only restored one universe and the rest of the multiverse just magically re-appeared, is what you're saying?
I was under the impression that the rest of the part of the multiverse that was destroyed remained destroyed. Alternatively that the word "multiverse" as it was used in the contexts of these stories was just the 616 universe and its various hidden realms.

Astner
Originally posted by operator616
http://imgur.com/fx9mc2f
Cool. Can I get the full text?

operator616
Originally posted by Astner
The Dream Dimension didn't look to be any different than Hades or any other hidden realm the Chaos King invaded.


What do you mean by it not being different? It's established to exist outside the 616 reality and Herc restored it.

Originally posted by Astner

I was under the impression that the rest of the part of the multiverse that was destroyed remained destroyed. Alternatively that the word "multiverse" as it was used in the contexts of these stories was just the 616 universe and its various hidden realms.

So you're saying that Marvel doesn't have an official multiverse (the infinite parallel realities) since Chaos War?

Come on, man. You know that's not true.

Originally posted by Astner
Cool. Can I get the full text?

http://imgur.com/bBQNrlQ

It's in the paragraph right before "LEGACY" highlighted in red.

Astner
Originally posted by operator616
What do you mean by it not being different? It's established to exist outside the 616 reality and Herc restored it.
The Dream Dimension is not a different universe with a number attached to it. It's as much part of the 616 as Asgard or Olympus.

Originally posted by operator616
So you're saying that Marvel doesn't have an official multiverse (the infinite parallel realities) since Chaos War?

Come on, man. You know that's not true.
The Chaos King never destroyed the multiverse, only a part of it.

Originally posted by operator616
http://imgur.com/bBQNrlQ

It's in the paragraph right before "LEGACY" highlighted in red.
Thanks.

operator616
Originally posted by Astner
The Dream Dimension is not a different universe with a number attached to it. It's as much part of the 616 as Asgard or Olympus.



Right, it is not an alternate universe with a different designation, however, it is still a separate universe, located in a separate space-time continuum which is as large as the mainstream 616 reality.

Originally posted by Astner

The Chaos King never destroyed the multiverse, only a part of it.



Cho stated that CK had already destroyed 98% of the multiverse (further confirmed by Oblivion later on). By the time Herc and CK confronted each other, only Earth's solar system remained. So if Herc did indeed only one universe, Marvel would have stayed as a sinlge universe.

backup
Originally posted by operator616
Cho stated that CK had already destroyed 98% of the multiverse (further confirmed by Oblivion later on). By the time Herc and CK confronted each other, only Earth's solar system remained. So if Herc did indeed only one universe, Marvel would have stayed as a sinlge universe.

Hey operator, Chaos King does not destroyed only the universe?

Because in this manual says universe (like Reality-616):

http://imgur.com/a/4PNMY

DarkSaint85
Herc wins.

operator616
Originally posted by backup
Hey operator, Chaos King does not destroyed only the universe?

Because in this manual says universe (like Reality-616):

http://imgur.com/a/4PNMY

That handbook was released at the same time when Chaos War concluded which means it isn't updated till the end of the event. And the thor annual was released a year after that, which confirmed that the event was multiversal. The handbook couldn't have taken that into account.

But even if we're willing to use it as genuine, the handbook should be used as a secondary source. On panel comes first.

Galan007
thumb up

Aside from what operator has already mentioned, Cho also said that the multiverse had been saved in the wake of CK's defeat:
http://i.imgur.com/cNuQsE4.jpg

Oblivion's dialogue pertaining to CK also corroborates the fact that he came "very close" to destroying the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/LKpj00Z.jpg

-K-M-
Technically 616 is a multiverse with all its seperate dimensions and what have you. Chaos war was very inconsistent

operator616
Originally posted by -K-M-
Technically 616 is a multiverse with all its seperate dimensions and what have you. Chaos war was very inconsistent

But the actual term "multiverse" has never been used to describe 616 and its associated dimensions/realms. It always refers to the infinity of universes which comprise mainstream Marvel.

The dialogue in the Oblivion supports this as well.

-K-M-
I don't put much stock in the oblivion scene to be honest. A aspect of him was close to destroying the multiverse? So he should be omniversal and above and he just isn't at that level

Actually look at the recent secret wars they have been flip flopping between their terms.

I'm sure the intention was he was multiversal just conveyed very poorly

zopzop
Originally posted by -K-M-
I don't put much stock in the oblivion scene to be honest. A aspect of him was close to destroying the multiverse? So he should be omniversal and above and he just isn't at that level

You have an excellent point. The ONE TIME we see Oblivion fighting and he couldn't even beat Infinity despite having homefield advantage and the more supped up Avatar. It was Infinity with Quasar as her avatar (all he has was Cosmic Awareness) vs Oblivion in his home realm with Maelstrom as his avatar (Maelstrom had Cosmic Awareness, Anomaly's power, the Quantum Bands, AND his own kinetic energy manipulation powers boosted by the Q-bands). Yet all he could do was stalemate Infinity.

So, yeah. Oblivion could have been talking out his @$$.

operator616
Originally posted by -K-M-
I don't put much stock in the oblivion scene to be honest. A aspect of him was close to destroying the multiverse? So he should be omniversal and above and he just isn't at that level


CK didn't start at multiversal levels.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Actually look at the recent secret wars they have been flip flopping between their terms

They've been flip flopping between the terms multiverse and omniverse which is perfectly understandable because both of the terms could be defined as being the equivalent of "infinite universe" and dates back to before SW.

This however doesn't change the fact that the term "multiverse" has a consistent meaning of referring to a multitude of realities with a numerical designation (I think this is the thing you're missing here), as opposed to a single designated universe along with its associated dimensions.

Originally posted by -K-M-

I'm sure the intention was he was multiversal just conveyed very poorly

That I agree with.

-K-M-
I'm aware he didn't. But at the end he was and that was what oblivion was referring too. It doesn't make much sense powerwise

I'm aware. More just referring to consistentcy in comics. But yes I have seen the different dimensions refered yo as a universe. So as I said 616 universe is technically a multiverse. Also as I mentioned above I'm sure CK was portrayed as multiversal just portrayed very poorly. Until the Thor scene I thought the argument he was just universal was warranted

Galan007
Oblivion stated that CK FAILED because he was just one aspect of his totality. To me, this statement only implies that Oblivion himself could have succeeded where CK failed -- destroying/absorbing the multiverse.

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
Oblivion stated that CK FAILED because he was just one aspect of his totality. To me, this statement only implies that Oblivion himself could have succeeded where CK failed.
He couldn't even beat Infinity despite have the MUCH more powerful avatar AND homefield advantage.

Oblivion is full of sh|t.

-K-M-
"Just one aspect of the infinity that I am" that strongly implies he is above CK and more powerful. What has he done to warrant that claim?

Regardless Hercules wins

operator616
Originally posted by -K-M-
I'm aware he didn't. But at the end he was and that was what oblivion was referring too. It doesn't make much sense powerwise


The image he conjured was of Mikaboshi, not CK.
Originally posted by -K-M-


I'm aware. More just referring to consistentcy in comics. But yes I have seen the different dimensions refered yo as a universe. So as I said 616 universe is technically a multiverse. Also as I mentioned above I'm sure CK was portrayed as multiversal just portrayed very poorly. Until the Thor scene I thought the argument he was just universal was warranted

I don't think you understood my post. I'm not referring to universe and multiverse used interchangeably. I'm talking about numerical designations. Marvel's "multiverse" consists of all the realities with a numerical designation (Earth-616, Earth-1610, etc...) That's what comprises the multiverse. That's why you'll never find an instance where the term "multiverse" is used to describe a designated universe + its associated realms.

Galan007
Originally posted by -K-M-
"Just one aspect of the infinity that I am" that strongly implies he is above and more powerful. What has he done to warrant that claim? In all fairness, when has he ever tried to do more?

And CK started out as a comparatively low-level being(ie. Mikaboshi.) THAT is the 'one aspect' of himself that Oblivion was referencing... Especially since a pic of Mikaboshi was shown in unison with the statement.

-K-M-
Originally posted by operator616
The image he conjured was of Mikaboshi, not CK.


I don't think you understood my post. I'm not referring to universe and multiverse used interchangeably. I'm talking about numerical designations. Marvel's "multiverse" consists of all the realities with a numerical designation (Earth-616, Earth-1610, etc...) That's what comprises the multiverse. That's why you'll never find an instance where the term "multiverse" is used to describe a designated universe + its associated realms.

Read the text they refer to the "chaos king" destroying the universes. The pic is not important. Mika didn't destroys all those universes CK did

I'm aware. I don't think you get what I'm saying. There are several universes connected to the 616. That technically would make it a multiverse, but not saying that's what it was due to the actual term for multiverse. In chaos war as mentioned earlier Hercules said he repaired the universe not the multiverse. We never saw him go into any other universes sans the god realms. Also keep in mind weakened great beasts nearly beat CK and his God army. Very inconsistent

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007
In all fairness, when has he ever tried to do more?

When he empowered his agent, Maelstrom and told him to destroy sh|t.

At the culmination of that arc, Infinity and Oblivion went at it. Oblivion couldn't beat her despite having massive advantages.

Galan007
The pic is very important, imo, because it is Oblivion himself generating the image as a means of showing us exactly WHO he is referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/iqq8ELw.jpg

He also uses the names "Mikaboshi" and "Chaos King" interchangeably, which makes the specific image of Mikaboshi far more relevant than the name.

operator616
Originally posted by -K-M-
Read the text they refer to the "chaos king" destroying the universes. The pic is not important



The pic is what's actually important because it gives an idea at what power level was Mikaboshi considered an aspect of oblivion. The name is not that relevant, that was my mistake.
Originally posted by -K-M-
I'm aware. I don't think you get what I'm saying. There are several universes connected to the 616. That technically would make it a multiverse, but not saying that's what it was due to the actual term for multiverse.

Ok. Then we're in agreement here.

operator616
Originally posted by Galan007
The pic is VERY important, because it's Oblivion himself who is generating the image as a means of showing us exactly WHO he is referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/iqq8ELw.jpg

He also uses the titles "Mikaboshi" and "Chaos King" interchangeably, which makes the specific image of Mikaboshi even more relevant.

thumb up

-K-M-
Not at all, he was still the chaos king under his attire. When he removed his clothes and mask is when we saw his true face which is what we saw until the end of the book. In the same sentence he refered to as mika being the chaos king

-K-M-
Originally posted by Galan007
The pic is very important, imo, because it is Oblivion himself generating the image as a means of showing us exactly WHO he is referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/iqq8ELw.jpg

He also uses the names "Mikaboshi" and "Chaos King" interchangeably, which makes the specific image of Mikaboshi far more relevant than the name.

I disagree. He refered to mika and chaos king as the same person. He was still the chaos king underneath his attire. He just removed it during the story and that's when we saw his true face.

This isn't the first time mika tried this. It was the Japanese gods that stopped him the first time

operator616
Originally posted by -K-M-
Not at all, he was still the chaos king under his attire. When he removed his clothes and mask is when we saw his true face which is what we saw until the end of the book. In the same sentence he refered to as mika being the chaos king

Doesn't change the fact that he absorbed countless powers on his way which is how he became multiversal, which is why he is far below oblivion at base power. And by extension is why Oblivion conjured an image of his base form and not an amp form.

Galan007
Originally posted by -K-M-
I disagree. He refered to mika and chaos king as the same person. He was still the chaos king underneath his attire. He just removed it during the story and that's when we saw his true face. Right, but Oblivion wasn't saying that peak CK was a mere aspect of his totality/power. He was referring to CK's original/base iteration: Mikaboshi. Hence the image of Mikaboshi he specifically opted to show us.

...He could have easily generated an image of CK-proper, if that is indeed who he was referencing. /shrug

-K-M-
Yes but again he refered to the chaos king nearly destroying all the universes and failed because he was merely an small aspect of his infinity form. Infinity means no limit do you actually agree he has no limit? That clearly illustrates he feels he was beyond the chaos king.

Agree to disagree

-K-M-
Originally posted by Galan007
Right, but Oblivion wasn't saying that peak CK was a mere aspect of his totality/power. He was referring to CK's original/base iteration: Mikaboshi.

Hence the image of Mikaboshi he specifically opted to show us. He could have easily generated an image of CK-proper, if that is indeed who he was talking about. /shrug

Actually he referenced mika and CK in the same sentence and said he failed because he was just an aspect of him and went on to talk about he destroyed all the universes. That would be the height of his power

Or he merely showed a pic of mika, which is still the chaos king

Galan007
"Infinite" is a relative term in comics that is thrown around all the time.

The only being in Marvel who possesses *truly* infinite power is TOAA. Anyone below that is more accurately described as nigh-infinite, regardless of statements or w/e.

-K-M-
Guh! That's my point. He could have simply been boosting. It doesn't make sense powerwise and what we have seen

operator616
Originally posted by -K-M-
Yes but again he refered to the chaos king nearly destroying all the universes and failed because he was merely an small aspect of his infinity form. Infinity means no limit do you actually agree he has no limit? That clearly illustrates he feels he was beyond the chaos king.

Agree to disagree

But your argument is contradictory. You're saying peak CK is Oblivion's aspect, despite the fact that Mikaboshi achieved his peak form by absorbing external power which wasn't Oblivion's. How could these fit together?

Galan007
Originally posted by -K-M-
Guh! That's my point. He could have simply been boosting While I do not believe Oblivion's raw power is infinite, I definitely believe the concept he embodies is infinite. He is basically just the empty void/blackness that existed before creation itself, and will be left over when creation comes to an end -- and that voidspace technically is infinite.

Anyway, I'm just saying that I believe Oblivion was referencing the original/base version of Mikaboshi when he stated that he was just an aspect of his totality(as the image shows us.) I am not of the mind that he was referring to peak CK, who only attained that level of power/status after he damn near absorbed all of Marvel. /shrug

-K-M-
Originally posted by operator616
But your argument is contradictory. You're saying peak CK is Oblivion's aspect, despite the fact that Mikaboshi achieved his peak form by absorbing external power which wasn't Oblivion's. How could these fit together?

Not at all. He references mika and chaos king in the same sentence and then went on about destroying the universes. No where did he said he was referring to a weaker mika.

Galan007
Then why didn't Oblivion provide a more current image of CK-proper? Why specifically show us Mikaboshi?

-K-M-
Originally posted by Galan007
While I do not believe Oblivion's raw power is infinite, I definitely believe the concept he embodies is infinite. He is basically just the empty void/blackness that existed before creation itself, and will be left over when creation comes to an end -- and that voidspace technically is infinite.

Anyway, I'm just saying that I believe Oblivion was referencing the original/base version of Mikaboshi when he stated that he was just an aspect of his totality(as the image shows us.) I am not of the mind that he was referring to peak CK, who only attained that level of power/status after he damn near absorbed all of Marvel. /shrug

Keep in mind this isn't the first time he did this and eternity was referring him as his equal and was the void before the universe began

krisblaze
What a shit ****ing character Chaos King turned out to be.

Mikaboshi was excellent.

-K-M-
Originally posted by Galan007
Then why didn't Oblivion provide a more current image of CK-proper. Why specifically show us Mikaboshi?

Why would he? Only difference is he was wearing his clothes there while in chaos war he took them off. He specifically referenced the chaos king in the same
Panel and sentence as he referenced mika. Then right after talks about destroying the universes

Again he's done this before

operator616
Originally posted by -K-M-
Not at all. He references mika and chaos king in the same sentence and then went on about destroying the universes. No where did he said he was referring to a weaker mika.

You're missing the point though.

Peak CK = base CK + countless external powers (not Oblivion's)

Which makes it impossible for his peak form to be an aspect of Oblivion.

-K-M-
Not at all of you not know his backstory prior to choas war? Or when eternity was talking shot him near the start of choas war?

He was basically returning to his true level

Galan007
Originally posted by -K-M-
Keep in mind this isn't the first time he did this and eternity was referring him as his equal and was the void before the universe began Yeah, but that was on a universal scale I thought?:
http://i.imgur.com/BAVdSqq.jpg

Originally posted by -K-M-
Why would he? Only difference is he was wearing his clothes there while in chaos war he took them off. He specifically referenced the chaos king in the same
Panel and sentence as he referenced mika. Then right after talks about destroying the universes

Again he's done this before Because that was the 'look' he went with when he actually went on his absorption frenzy and damn near absorbed the multiverse?

Oblivion showed us a specific iteration of the character for a reason. It's silly to think he was referring to CK-proper. If that were the case, he would have just shown us an image of him instead.

-K-M-
and notice Hercules showed mika when he refered to him as universal but that wasn't his true form. Sometimes the pictures are just for general references purposes

operator616
Originally posted by -K-M-
Not at all of you not know his backstory prior to choas war? Or when eternity was talking shot him near the start of choas war?

He was basically returning to his true level

I remember vaguely that he has some ambiguous creation story with Gaea being involved in it as well for some reason. He was apparently the void before creation and yes, that is perhaps his "true level". We still can't ignore the countless gods and pantheons he absorbed along the way before achieving his Chaos King true form. Which by default makes his peak form inapplicable to being an oblivion aspect. But I don't think anyone is changing the other's mind on this one.

Galan007
That actually proves what I'm saying.

Herc referenced Mikaboshi being universal /w/ an accompanied image of his normal/base-self. CK, however, was multiversal.

The former fits perfectly with the notion that Mikaboshi was just one aspect of Oblivion's totality. Mika=universal; Oblivion's totality=multiversal. smile

-K-M-
Originally posted by Galan007
That actually proves what I'm saying.

Herc referenced Mikaboshi being universal /w/ an accompanied image of his normal/base-self. CK, however, was multiversal.

The former fits perfectly with the notion that Mikaboshi was just one aspect of Oblivion's totality. Mika=universal; Oblivion's totality=multiversal. smile

Not at all even if you think mika was universal so oblivion was far above that? No. Also he donned that look after the Japanese captured him the first time. That wasn't his look when he was the void

But you think mika prior to chaos war was universal in power? I don't. Yet they showed that form and referenced him to bring universal. The story was to get him back to his regular levels

Also remember when Hercules repaired all of reality he referenced it as the recreating the "universe". Could be the exact same thing. Multiversal but Hercules said universe again. Zero consistency

Galan007
Again, an image of Mikaboshi was specifically shown. No reason at all to think that pic was meant to represent CK at the peak of his power.

Bored discussing this, though... We just keep repeating the same shit. sick

Astner

Mr Master
The Pantheon "god" realms/dimensions are not located withIN 616.

They are all WAY outside 616.

Nightmare's world, Meph, Asgard, Olympus, Celtic etc. All of em.

-----------------------------------

Although, I have learned through time, so much in this comic land is writer/plot dependent.

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