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Fight takes place aboard the Ebon Hawk. Who wins?

Bump.

Bandon loses

No one wants to support Bandon?

Bandon.

Bandon throws her at a computer.

Originally posted by MythLord
Bandon throws her at a computer.

Marr

Good fight, but I'm leaning towards Bandon atm.

Visas has been beaten by an unarmed exile in lightsaber sparring and has been dominated by Kreia in the Dantooine enclave. Visas grew more powerful after confronting Nihilus, but idk how to quantify this power growth without any post-Ravager showings. TSLRCM has shown us however that even with the power growth, Visas is no match for Darth Traya (though Visas was bested on DS nexus).

While I think Visas is a shadow hand under a stronger master, Bandon being chosen among hundreds of apprentices based on his power impresses me more than Visas being chosen because Nihilus chose to spare her. Her position as a shadow hand is more circumstantial, and thus less quantifiable.

Visas's showings strike me as more impressive, defeating a sith camp and then beating some sith masters in a DS nexus (Freedon Nadd's tomb) with help, and helping the exile gauntlet through the Ravager and a weakened Nihilus are better than beating Trask Ulgo and force pushing a sith trooper into a computer. But the implied threat of Bandon, being the 2nd strongest in Malak's Empire and being seen as a possible successor to Malak outshines feats in this case.

I am in no way implying that Bandon is close in sabers to the Exile or close in force to Kreia, but given the circumstances with which the aforementioned characters bested Visas, and given Bandon's rank, I think Bandon could likely beat Visas in an all out confrontation with difficulty.

Visas being Shadow Hand puts her above everybody else under Nihilus' dominion, including the Sith Lords on Onderon and Dxun. She also blocks Nihilus' connection to the Ravager, which is a showing beyond Bandon, tbh.

Not sure who's more skilled by the end of it, but Visas' blinding power could be a game changer here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Visas being Shadow Hand puts her above everybody else under Nihilus' dominion, including the Sith Lords on Onderon and Dxun. She also blocks Nihilus' connection to the Ravager, which is a showing beyond Bandon, tbh.

Not sure who's more skilled by the end of it, but Visas' blinding power could be a game changer here.

On DarthAnt66's Respect Thread, he has that quote describing what a shadow hand is (the same quote you put under Visas for your Kotor II companions respect thread), so I kinda assumed Bandon was also a shadow hand.

"His great strength in the Force, his natural cruelty, and his absolute ruthlessness in his quest for power soon set him apart from his fellow students, and drew the calculating eye of Lord Malak himself. In the tradition of their order, Malak sought a single pupil from among his many followers to become his chosen apprentice: one who could learn the terrible secrets of the Sith and use them to destroy the Jedi and the Republic. So far, Darth Bandon has proven himself to be an excellent choice."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide

This quote ( which I took from DarthAnt66's Respect Thread) is what helps convince me that Bandon is in everything but name, Malak's shadow hand. I do believe Malak has more followers than Nihilus, so it's a larger pool to pick from.

I don't recall when Visas blocks Nihilus's connection to the Ravager, was that one of those dialogue options during the Nihilus fight? And are Visas and Nihilus not linked by a force bond, adding some circumstance to the feat?

The blinding power could be a game changer, but unfortunately it didn't seem to help her secure victory against a lightsaber-less Exile, which leads me to question how effective it would be against Bandon.

Bandon is Malak's Shadow Hand. I believe that's his title in KotORCG.

The blocking thing is mentioned in the Prima Guide. In the game, your only option is for Visas to Sever her Force Bond with Nihilus, which weakens him.

And the Exile did have a lightsaber by that point. KotORCG mentions them "crossing lightsabers" before Visas was defeated, so the Exile did have a lightsaber.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Bandon is Malak's Shadow Hand. I believe that's his title in KotORCG.

The blocking thing is mentioned in the Prima Guide. In the game, your only option is for Visas to Sever her Force Bond with Nihilus, which weakens him.

And the Exile did have a lightsaber by that point. KotORCG mentions them "crossing lightsabers" before Visas was defeated, so the Exile did have a lightsaber.

So the shadow hand thing is settled, cool.

Oh that's interesting, but the feat is still circumstantial due to Visas's and Nihilus's bond no?
Kreia says " ...when one of us manipulates the force to heal or strengthen ourselves, the other is aided as well." Which makes me the believe that the reverse is also true, which is why Kreia was able to threaten the Exile with suicide near the end of the game. Not to mention Nihilus is already weakened at this point from trying to drain the Exile.

Hmm, alright. I didn't think it was possible to get a lightsaber at that point in the game, but if the guide says she did, I guess that's canon. There's still the issue that this was early exile though, before any major power growth.

Didn't Visas also incapacitates the entirety of the Exile's party before she fights the Exile?

Yeah. And in the dialogue files, she puts the two currently travelling with the Exile in Stasis, in the same way that Bastila did to two of Revan's companions on the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Solar Power
So the shadow hand thing is settled, cool.

Oh that's interesting, but the feat is still circumstantial due to Visas's and Nihilus's bond no?
Kreia says " ...when one of us manipulates the force to heal or strengthen ourselves, the other is aided as well." Which makes me the believe that the reverse is also true, which is why Kreia was able to threaten the Exile with suicide near the end of the game. Not to mention Nihilus is already weakened at this point from trying to drain the Exile.

Hmm, alright. I didn't think it was possible to get a lightsaber at that point in the game, but if the guide says she did, I guess that's canon. There's still the issue that this was early exile though, before any major power growth.

Visas actually severing the bond is impressive, though. And blocking Nihilus' connection to the Ravager has nothing to do with their Force bond anyway.

As for the last point, fair enough, but Visas also grows under the Exile's tutelage.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Visas actually severing the bond is impressive, though. And blocking Nihilus' connection to the Ravager has nothing to do with their Force bond anyway.

As for the last point, fair enough, but Visas also grows under the Exile's tutelage.

The nature of force bonds eludes me, and debating the impressiveness of severing one is beyond my caliber. I just remember Zez Kai Ell saying you have to die or change your feelings, which sounds vague to me. Then Lonna Vash says that turning to the darkside can break a bond too (It's been too long, and I'm too lazy atm to re-listen to her dialogue/read the script)? It just seems to me that breaking a bond is an indication of mental fortitude, not force power.

If the script says Visas blocked Nihilus's connection to the Ravager, then sure that's a great force feat that's beyond Bandon. I just have to question whether this breaking happens before or after Nihilus's failed drain attempt. Idk what breaking Nihilus's connection to the Ravager does, but that's separate from the debate I suppose.

Visas's growth still isn't enough for her to challenge Darth Traya however, which is what leads me to believe she is still in the realm of Bandon's capabilities.

Just curious, but who do you support here? I think this is a good fight and you've brought some good stuff to the table that's made me waver in Bandon's victory, but nothing concrete yet. Are you arguing that Visas wins, or just attacking my arguments for Bandon to generate discussion? I'm happy either way, but I'll have to do some research before continuing.

It's after Nihilus' Drain attempt. And Bandon would be one-shotted by Traya as well.

Well, I made the thread, so I'd rather not be particularly aligned with anyone here. I just decided to throw in a contributing argument, but you responded and so we've had this discussion.

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Was Malak aware of Traya and Sion's existence during KOTOR?

Visas electrocutes him.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
Was Malak aware of Traya and Sion's existence during KOTOR?

Sion was one of his minions. Not sure about Traya.

Sion was a Sith Marauder who predated Malak, Traya was on her sojourn of Malachor V.

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Originally posted by Azronger
Visas electrocutes him.

Bandon.

https://youtu.be/ZiTDC8OORdY