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Masters Vrook Lamar, Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar have gathered in Dantooine's Rebuilt Jedi Enclave to discuss a disturbance in the Force that they have felt.

This disturbance turns out to be Raskta Lsu, Sarro Xaj & Valenthyne Farfalla, who arrive to tell the KotOR II Masters that their teachings are destroying the Jedi Order. The two sides clash.

Morals off, standard equipment.

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-out

Who wins?

1: Team 2, 10/10. Raskta >> all team 1, Sarro > all team 1.
2: Team 1, Vrook and Kavar are better than anyone on team 2. Zez-Kai costs them some rounds, but i dont know how many.
3: Team 2, 10/10. Raskta can beat anybody unless she gets cheapshot from Force, same with Sarro. But Zez-Kai makes up for it... being a total weak link xD

Originally posted by BazookaMaster
1: Team 2, 10/10. Raskta >> all team 1, Sarro > all team 1.
2: Team 1, Vrook and Kavar are better than anyone on team 2. Zez-Kai costs them some rounds, but i dont know how many.
3: Team 2, 10/10. Raskta can beat anybody unless she gets cheapshot from Force, same with Sarro. But Zez-Kai makes up for it... being a total weak link xD

Disgusting, unamped Lsu provides any of them with a potentially lethal duel, but that's about it, the High Council wins every time.

Unamped Lsu provides any of them with a saber through the throat, lol.

For once, I agree. Don't see how the KotOR II team even stands a chance.

amped Lsu was carving figure 8's across Orbalisk Bane's chest, (someone who imo is even more powerful than Darth Traya, who embarrassed these High Council Members like trailer trash). Even unamped, her contribution here is too much. Team 2.

Her BM amp was specifically stated to allow her to do that, like the book couldn't have been more explicit about how they'd all be immediately f*cked if they lost that amplification. Her Bane feat isn't even remotely relevant in an umamped state.

I'd also like to know how scaling off of Bane helps Lsu in this case, due to the fact that even with the BM amp, she would've legit died to Bane's Force push.

Even worse for her is the fact that they are all powerful enough to blow her into next week in any Force exchange.

Team 2, Team 1, Team 2

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
For once, I agree. Don't see how the KotOR II team even stands a chance.

The Kotor team has to win, to make Traya and co. look better!

Team 2, every time.

When I was new here, mooks from Kotor were considered mooks... and Meetra, Traya and other guys were rated very low, too low for me. But now all of a sudden a bunch of veterans starts pushing them insanely high. It all looks so forced and cheap...

Who cares about the BM amp? Bane was amped by the dark side nexus, so the BM only evened the odds.

Raskta can easily defeat Vrook or Kavar, and she stomps Zez. Vrook or Kavar can overpower her with the Force though. Zez defo cannot lol.

The same goes for Sarro, but with higher difficulty. He beats Vrook/Kavar in good fight, and throws down Zez easily with sabers. Same with the Force as with Raskta.

Farfalla is on even odds with them, and even he is superior to Zez.

Originally posted by BazookaMaster
When I was new here, mooks from Kotor were considered mooks... and Meetra, Traya and other guys were rated very low, too low for me. But now all of a sudden a bunch of veterans starts pushing them insanely high. It all looks so forced and cheap...

People called them "mooks" because no one had any idea of what their feats were. Most of the "veterans" you're talking about haven't changed their opinions on these characters at all, it's only the people who were initially uneducated on the era, tbh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Team 2, every time.

Originally posted by Trocity
The Kotor team has to win, to make Traya and co. look better!

Team 2 handily

Raskta is better than any of the KOTOR fodder Jedi masters

Originally posted by Selenial
People called them "mooks" because no one had any idea of what their feats were. Most of the "veterans" you're talking about haven't changed their opinions on these characters at all, it's only the people who were initially uneducated on the era, tbh.
I know plenty about KotOR II. They're still mooks.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I know plenty about KotOR II. They're still mooks.

You don't consider cut content viable, IIRC.

Tell me though, would you consider the relatively unexplored members from the PT Jedi Council mooks too?

Originally posted by carthage
Team 2 handily

Raskta is better than any of the KOTOR fodder Jedi masters

Originally posted by Selenial
You don't consider cut content viable, IIRC.

Tell me though, would you consider the relatively unexplored members from the PT Jedi Council mooks too?

Like who? Stass Allie? Coleman Trebor? Coleman Kcaj? Because the answer to all of these happens to be yes.

Being fair: Coleman Trebor sliced through hundreds of droids, despite not wielding a lightsaber for a lengthy timeframe and Stass Allie easily murdered two MangaGuards, so...

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Like who? Stass Allie? Coleman Trebor? Coleman Kcaj? Because the answer to all of these happens to be yes. Stass Allie and Coleman Kcaj have virtually no feats, so it'd be unfair to label them as mooks.

Allie does, tho. Well... one.

Team 2, seem more skilled.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Like who? Stass Allie? Coleman Trebor? Coleman Kcaj? Because the answer to all of these happens to be yes.

Not quite who I had in mind. I also don't need your opinion, I know from chat your problem with the masters has less to do with an era bias than certain other debaters around here

Please. I don't rank KotOR II characters lowly because they're in KotOR II, nor do I rank some, as in like 4, PT characters highly because they're in the PT.
Originally posted by Selenial
You don't consider cut content viable, IIRC.

Tell me though, would you consider the relatively unexplored members from the PT Jedi Council mooks too?
Even with cut content, they're a bunch of people who get toyed with casually.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Like who? Stass Allie? Coleman Trebor? Coleman Kcaj? Because the answer to all of these happens to be yes.

Yeah, I made this thread with the intention of team 2 winning sabers every time, team 1 winning Force every time, and all-out likely going to team 2 (6-7/10?)

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Please. I don't rank KotOR II characters lowly because they're in KotOR II, nor do I rank some, as in like 4, PT characters highly because they're in the PT.

Even with cut content, they're a bunch of people who get toyed with casually.

Ahh but you do, you just don't realise it. You dismiss the fact the few force feats they actually have are good compared to a lot of PT Council Members, because they were manhandled by Traya. You use Traya's treatment of them to lower them as force wielders instead of raise her, because of your opinion on her and the era in general.

'Your preconceptions are irrelevant.' Is much easier to type Sel.

Well, sabers and Force are such pitched battles that I may as well have not made those rounds.

We're pretty much only discussing all-out, lol.

Also, what's this about Zez-Kai Ell being a weak link? He's more skilled than Kavar and probably similarly powerful.

Ignorance, simply put.

Well, I made this with the expectation that the K2 team would be lowballed, but not with the expectation that they would win the fight overall anyways.

Honestly, Lsu is MVP in sabers but the clear weak link in Force.

I don't expect Sarro to be stronger than her in Force, either. Bane was simply far more powerful than Zannah at this point, and less pressed in sabers, so his ability to dominate with the Force actually manifested itself.

But yeah, if Vrook could put Dantooine! Exile in Stasis, he can do it to either Sarro or Raskta. At worst, he can do something similar to what he did to the Exile's party in the caves.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But yeah, if Vrook could put Dantooine! Exile in Stasis, he can do it to either Sarro or Raskta. At worst, he can do something similar to what he did to the Exile's party in the caves.

Oh sweet summer child, you have much to learn. The masters are featless, remember?

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

Originally posted by Selenial
Ahh but you do, you just don't realise it.

No, no, I really don't.

I don't dismiss their feats because they get manhandled by Traya. I scale them by the fact that they got manhandled by Traya. There's a difference.

No, I use Traya's treatment of them to place them lower than Traya, who is already lowered by the statements of her creator. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't give a shit about your, or anyone's really, opinion of her feats or accolades when it's being compared to the Word of God. I don't care about her era, and I don't care about the vast majority of any era. Or the mythos, if we're being honest. Traya's a mid-tier combatant who's able to take on all three of them at once. That makes them look bad whether you like it or not.

Lmfao, the double standards are absolutely hilarious.

Went through KotOR 2 again, according to Kreia the Jedi Masters were too powerful to be allowed to live.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I don't dismiss their feats because they get manhandled by Traya. I scale them by the fact that they got manhandled by Traya. There's a difference.

No, I use Traya's treatment of them to place them lower than Traya, who is already lowered by the statements of her creator. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't give a shit about your, or anyone's really, opinion of her feats or accolades when it's being compared to the Word of God. I don't care about her era, and I don't care about the vast majority of any era. Or the mythos, if we're being honest. Traya's a mid-tier combatant who's able to take on all three of them at once. That makes them look bad whether you like it or not.

No, there's no real difference to be honest. Their feats are quantifiable in comparison to every other era because they don't rely on scaling from other force users. It is the most concrete way of placing a character, to lower them based on an "unknown" (which Traya is if you don't solidly rank the others first) is both a fallacy and factually inaccurate.

To use Avellone's statements are retarded, tbh. What statement puts her as a "mid-tier" combatant. In Avellone's mind, she's not as strong as the ancient Sith, but in Avellone's mind every ancient Sith was Vitiate tier, and destroying planets on a whim. He doesn't write for the eras which he discusses, and Drew Karpyshyn even goes out of his way to say that an authors opinion is no more relevant than ours when discussing works he had no involvement in, their only usefulness is clarifying details. So please, again, tell me what quote you think is so drastically game changing in regards to her power levels that you must ignore the Council's feats and lower them because she's garbage?

Because that's your intrinsic era bias. Every character has feats that are quantifiable and comparable to other eras because they don't involve other characters. Traya's feats aren't like that, she relies on placement of other individuals in her era to actually show where she lies.

If you arbitrarily judge Traya's prowess first, based on nothing canonical for no reason, you're scaling the rest of the era down and ignoring their strong showings because "nope herpa derp Traya crushed them and she's shit". Like I said, it culminates in an era bias whether purposeful or not.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Went through KotOR 2 again, according to Kreia the Jedi Masters were too powerful to be allowed to live.

Quote?

It's in the same part where she talks about them influencing worlds, iirc.

I need a direct quote, lol. She makes too many references to them.

Is this near the end, in the DS Enclave scene, or what?

DS Enclave scene.

That's a long scene. Do you have the exact words? All I can think off the top of my head is her talking about how she didn't expect them to still live, how it's been corrected etc.

Ah, fair enough.

Not sure how usable the accolade is, though. Rather unquantifiable.