Iron Fist vs. Midnighter

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StiltmanFTW
1. Classic versions.

2. Modern.

Sharivan
Originally posted by Sharivan
Immortal Iron Fist #23

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373418_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-008.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373419_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-009.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373420_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-010.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373421_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-011.jpg

Dodging four different bullets at once, and does so in slow motion so we can see the bullets in mid-air.

Power Man & Iron Fist #89

https://i.imgur.com/ciYjoBD.jpg

Deflecting dozens of flechettes at once, and creating numerous afterimages.

Power Man & Iron Fist #50

https://i.imgur.com/apaLQqQ.jpg


Catching a bullet with bare hands.

Immortal Iron Fist Annual

https://i.imgur.com/mzHglT3.jpg

He is able to move within the time-frame of a microsecond.

Iron Fist v3 #1

http://imgur.com/a/TiUNn

It only takes him 0.05 seconds to charge and use his Iron Fist.

Power Man & Iron Fist #54

https://i.imgur.com/WOnwAf0.jpg

He is able to easily defeat a giant dragon.

Immortal Weapons #5

http://imgur.com/a/0EXnr

He is able to take down a helicarrier with a single blow.

New Avengers #59

http://imgur.com/a/BHP0F

The collateral damage from his Iron Fist is compared to a hydrogen bomb.

Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #20

http://imgur.com/a/76zEa

He is able to murder Zhu-Rong, a God of Fire and Universal Order in a single punch.

Iron Fist: ILW #11

https://i.imgur.com/5ckAEMV.jpg

Originally posted by Sharivan
Speaking of that.

Immortal Iron Fist #14

http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373441_The_Immortal_Iron_Fist_014-008.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373442_The_Immortal_Iron_Fist_014-009.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373443_The_Immortal_Iron_Fist_014-010.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373444_The_Immortal_Iron_Fist_014-011.jpg




I only brought those up because that's precisely what would happen if Iron Fist was intent on actually murdering them, and had no moral compulsions stopping him.

Sharivan
Originally posted by Sharivan
Also, Danny is able to trick Daredevil's senses.

Power Man & Iron Fist #77

https://i.imgur.com/numK5XD.jpg

He is able to heal himself without even trying now. He doesn't even have to be conscious in order to do it.

Immortal Iron Fist #8

https://i.imgur.com/pwsbIkH.jpg

Originally posted by Sharivan
There is also the instance where Daniel Rand punches through a helicopter by leaping towards it from the side of a skyscraper. As he fights a bunch of ninjas amidst free fall.

Iron Fist: TLW #1

http://i.imgur.com/T4O2wy9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yWDgHjD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aWlxCn9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YhIuwyF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JVnp7lp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DsZ7WJI.jpg

He leaped all the way from the skyscraper, through the helicopter, and made it back in one piece.

He catches a bullet here after Brenda tries to kill herself. Do keep in mind since the gun was right next to her head? That means the timeframe he had to cross the distance had to be incredibly tiny.

Iron Fist: The Living Weapon #12

http://imgur.com/a/Fup9N

Sharivan
Originally posted by Sharivan
You do recall that time Danny defeated Davos without his chi? When Davos had it, and when he had the accumulated knowledge of every Iron Fist that died in the Anomaly Gem? Simply by being that much of a better martial artist?

Iron Fist v2 #2

http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29374109_Iron_Fist_MS1996_02_p18.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29374110_Iron_Fist_MS1996_02_p19.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29374111_Iron_Fist_MS1996_02_p20.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29374112_Iron_Fist_MS1996_02_p21.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29374113_Iron_Fist_MS1996_02_p22.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29374114_Iron_Fist_MS1996_02_p23.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29374115_Iron_Fist_MS1996_02_p24.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29374116_Iron_Fist_MS1996_02_p25.jpg

Zack M
Midnighter.

RealityWarper
Midnighter both rounds, very easily.

leonidas
Originally posted by Zack M
Midnighter.

laughing out loud

sorry, not laughing at your pick, just after all those scans you reply with one word. struck me as damn funny....

StiltmanFTW
I knew Golgo wouldn't fail me big grin

Sharivan
Originally posted by Sharivan
Also, what cdtm here said. Danny is able to take anything that's not atypically used in a fight and turn into a deadly fighting style. So much so that even Black Panther asked him to teach him.

Which is what's relevant there.

I figured that was obvious.

There is also defeating Mr. X's telepathy by using a drunken fighting style.

Thunderbolts #137

https://i.imgur.com/jti8zj4.jpg

Defeating Shin Kuei.

Heroes for Hire #19

http://imgur.com/a/cHm9y

Originally posted by Sharivan
Oh, and Danny breaks out of the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak before destroying an inter-dimensional portal with a punch. Which causes a tear in the fabric of reality.

Iron Fist v1 #7

http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373445_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_11.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373446_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_12.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373447_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_13.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373448_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_14.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373449_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_15.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373450_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_16.jpg

Originally posted by Sharivan
While we're at that.

Danny's senses are also enhanced. He can literally hear someone sweating behind him.

Immortal Iron Fist #9

https://i.imgur.com/ZiRi3br.jpg

Defeats a bunch of cyborg ninjas with a blast of chi.

Iron Fist: TLW #2

https://i.imgur.com/e0zryDO.jpg

Can project his chi as fireballs.

Immortal Iron Fist #14

https://i.imgur.com/NStAOGM.jpg

Destroys a ship with his Iron Fist.

Power Man & Iron Fist #68

http://imgur.com/a/IuaK0

abhilegend
Midnighter.

Sharivan
So, Lord Rand baby shakes and destroys Midnighter before going home to some chocolate loving.

Thread is done.

RadZoa
WS Midnighter but not sure about New 52 Midnighter

DarkSaint85
Midnighter, solidly. Sharivan, come at me.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Midnighter, solidly. Sharivan, come at me.

Your mother was a truck stop whore named Sally.

...

That's not what you meant?

cdtm
Midnighter.

What, you were expecting something else? (Seriously, you're all insane. stick out tongue )

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sharivan
Your mother was a truck stop whore named Sally.

...

That's not what you meant?

thumb up

In response to ALL of your scans....

'Door'.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
thumb up

In response to ALL of your scans....

'Door'.

In response to "Door" I give you "Iron Fist."

He punches it the same way he punched Master Khan's hopes and dreams.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sharivan
In response to "Door" I give you "Iron Fist."

He punches it the same way he punched Master Khan's hopes and dreams.

How can he do that, when Midnighter thinks it, and it happens?

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/3085733-2.png

Or he just dumps Danny in space:
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii265/scanscans/Midnighter12-016.jpg

Or chops him in half:
http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103537/2723155-5.png

We both agree Midnighter's reactions are at least in the same ballpark as Danny. Starting distance is 0.5km, featureless arena. As shown, Midnighter can think 'door', and it opens around the target. Moreover, Mids is not known for holding back, and is OK with opening with fatal attacks from the start.

Midnighter wins, handily.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How can he do that, when Midnighter thinks it, and it happens?

Namely Iron Fist is going to do it kind of like this.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Oh, and Danny breaks out of the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak before destroying an inter-dimensional portal with a punch. Which causes a tear in the fabric of reality.

Iron Fist v1 #7

http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373445_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_11.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373446_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_12.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373447_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_13.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373448_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_14.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373449_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_15.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373450_Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_16.jpg



All the instances you provided here shoe Midnighter having to vocalize it, and Door opening near them. At which point he has to force them inside somehow by either pushing them or kicking them.

That's more than enough time for Iron Fist to simply punch Door.



I would argue that Iron Fist is faster if we go by things outside of any fights. However, besides that even if they are similar in speed Midnighter needs to say the word and force Iron Fist through it.



How exactly is Midnighter going to do that if Iron Fist immediately punches Door before the former can push him through it?

We know Iron Fist is capable of murdering people as well. Just look at his his fight with the Iron Fist Killer where he decapitated him with a punch.

Then going into things such as Iron Fist being able to transform back into a human being after being reduced to a ghost, and giving said ghost substance again after bridging the dimensional gap in the afterlife.

Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #23

http://i.imgur.com/fWatTco.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lcVDjfn.jpg

Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #24

http://i.imgur.com/Bhcpmeo.png
http://i.imgur.com/xfpa0vX.jpg

It's only after this that he make a complete resurrection though.

http://i.imgur.com/Ypzaeec.jpg

So, it's more like using his ghost to substitute his body.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sharivan
Namely Iron Fist is going to do it kind of like this.

All the instances you provided here shoe Midnighter having to vocalize it, and Door opening near them. At which point he has to force them inside somehow by either pushing them or kicking them.

That's more than enough time for Iron Fist to simply punch Door.

I would argue that Iron Fist is faster if we go by things outside of any fights. However, besides that even if they are similar in speed Midnighter needs to say the word and force Iron Fist through it.

How exactly is Midnighter going to do that if Iron Fist immediately punches Door before the former can push him through it?
I thought your argument would go like this.

No, he doesn't vocalise it. First scan is just a text bubble, but more importantly, the second scan shows him communicating via telepathy to open the door in space (where sound does not travel, and nobody can hear you say door). A gift from the Engineer, and standard equipment for all Authority members:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/117571/3400506-4ce294c985d40.jpg

As evidenced by the text bubble with blue bubbles on it. Second to last panel, second scan; posted here again:
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii265/scanscans/Midnighter12-016.jpg

As for pushing? My first scan showed the doors opening ON the multiple opponents, sending them away. No pushing required. Posted here again:
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/3085733-2.png

In summary: he can summon doors by thinking, and he can open them on opponents (highlighting them in an orange yellow aura). It is usually shown as a rectangular portal, this is true, but it can also be a 'cut-and-paste' BFR.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought your argument would go like this.

You didn't really address the last part of my post.



He clearly vocalizes in the white text bubbles but I see your point in regards to the blue text bubbles.



Alright then.

That seems to be pretty clear. I have no idea why he vocalizes it anyway when he can. That seems to be kind of a bad idea. As that would let your opponent know something's up.



Yeah, I see it.



I don't see them going through those Doors that quickly, and they have enough time to chat before they're taken. The ones with the golden highlight?

That would be plenty of time for Iron Fist to jump out of the way or use an Iron Fist.



The former seems kind of slow, and the latter is clearly visible. It would easy for Danny take care of that one. As for the former it may be more difficult but I doubt Danny is going to stand still as something around or under him is glowing for no reason.

Sharivan
Originally posted by Sharivan
All the instances you provided here shoe Midnighter having to vocalize it, and Door opening near them. At which point he has to force them inside somehow by either pushing them or kicking them.

That is show not shoe.

Ah, typos.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sharivan
You didn't really address the last part of my post.

I don't see them going through those Doors that quickly, and they have enough time to chat before they're taken. The ones with the golden highlight?

That would be plenty of time for Iron Fist to jump out of the way or use an Iron Fist.

The former seems kind of slow, and the latter is clearly visible. It would easy for Danny take care of that one. As for the former it may be more difficult but Id doubt Danny is going to stand still as something around or under him is glowing for no reason.

Oh, I'm talking about the 2nd panel here:
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/3085733-2.png
One guy's hand can be seen, outlined in yellow/orange. 2nd guy's waist is already disappearing, etc etc. They're being sent away. In mid-battle. Nothing Danny can do, because the whole point about doors is that they are EVERYWHERE at once, within 'our' dimension, as it were. He can't evade it, because he is surrounded by it. You almost have to think in higher dimensions to understand it. Jumping around doesn't work, because you're being cut and pasted from one location to the other.

As to the vocalisation/rectangular portals? Guess it looks cooler, I suppose.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh, I'm talking about the 2nd panel here:
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/3085733-2.png
One guy's hand can be seen, outlined in yellow/orange. 2nd guy's waist is already disappearing, etc etc. They're being sent away. In mid-battle. Nothing Danny can do, because the whole point about doors is that they are EVERYWHERE at once, within 'our' dimension, as it were. He can't evade it, because he is surrounded by it. You almost have to think in higher dimensions to understand it. Jumping around doesn't work, because you're being cut and pasted from one location to the other.

As to the vocalisation/rectangular portals? Guess it looks cooler, I suppose.

Going from that it seems to ensnare them in this variation of Door. However, once again going from everybody else there it takes a while to completely ensnare you. In which case Danny can simply use his chi to break out of it. As we already know its effects on interdimensional portals causes them to explode. If it's literally all around his body I imagine any significant amount of chi here would set it off. In which case that may disorient him but it would solve the problem of getting ejected into outer space.

Yeah, probably the coolness factor.

At any rate what I already said here, and the fact he can use his ghost to substitute his body.

Plus, from what I have posted Danny hits harder and can take more punishment. I want to kinda argue he is faster but I definitely think someone would try to bring up Midnighter's fights against other characters.

Since that seems to be the song and dance with these things. You know how I feel about fights in comic books. Only if their individual showings justify it, and all that.

abhilegend
So midnighter wins.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
So midnighter wins.

Not really no.

As what I addressed there makes clear. If Door is all around Danny any of amount of chi would probably set it off, and he is explosion proof anyway so...

That, and the rest there.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sharivan
Going from that it seems to ensnare them in this variation of Door. However, once again going from everybody else there it takes a while to completely ensnare you. In which case Danny can simply use his chi to break out of it. As we already know its effects on interdimensional portals causes them to explode. If it's literally all around his body I imagine any significant amount of chi here would set it off. In which case that may disorient him but it would solve the problem of getting ejected into outer space.

Yeah, probably the coolness factor.

At any rate what I already said here, and the fact he can use his ghost to substitute his body.

Plus, from what I have posted Danny hits harder and can take more punishment. I want to kinda argue he is faster but I definitely think someone would try to bring up Midnighter's fights against other characters.

Since that seems to be the song and dance with these things. You know how I feel about fights in comic books. Only if their individual showings justify it, and all that.

Sure, and it then descends into low-balling/high-balling.

Hence, my use of doors. As seen, in some cases some of the opponents were already completely highlighted by doors. A single target like Danny? Should be easy enough. He COULD sub himself, but that wouldn't be his usual tactic.

Hitting harder/taking more punishment? Sure. Midnighter can see that, and he is a cheating sneaky bastard. A fair fight is for other people - if he can win by BFR, he will BFR. Or, chop in half or whatever.

For the chi to set off the door, you'd have to show that kind of energy (or magnitude) setting off doors in the Wildstorm universe. Which I highly doubt.

IOW, just because Danny's chi caused a portal to explode, =/= it exploding ALL portals. Or in this case, the Carrier's portals.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
Not really no.

As what I addressed there makes clear. If Door is all around Danny any of amount of chi would probably set it off, and he is explosion proof anyway so...

That, and the rest there.
Do Midnighter wins? Good.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sure, and it then descends into low-balling/high-balling.

Hence, my use of doors. As seen, in some cases some of the opponents were already completely highlighted by doors. A single target like Danny? Should be easy enough. He COULD sub himself, but that wouldn't be his usual tactic.

Hitting harder/taking more punishment? Sure. Midnighter can see that, and he is a cheating sneaky bastard. A fair fight is for other people - if he can win by BFR, he will BFR. Or, chop in half or whatever.

For the chi to set off the door, you'd have to show that kind of energy (or magnitude) setting off doors in the Wildstorm universe. Which I highly doubt.

IOW, just because Danny's chi caused a portal to explode, =/= it exploding ALL portals. Or in this case, the Carrier's portals.

It was in the scene, and it states the amount of energy disrupted was so immense it couldn't be measured by conventional means. It was quote-on-quote "incalculable." That's kind of unspecific. The resulting explosion is compared to a baby nuke, and the portal reaches into other dimensions.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/29373449/Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_15.jpg.html

What kind of energy are we talking about for Carrier's portals? Does it have any instances of dealing with things that disrupt interdimensional portals?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sharivan
It was in the scene, and it states the amount of energy disrupted was so immense it couldn't be measured by conventional means. It was quote-on-quote "incalculable." That's kind of unspecific. The resulting explosion is compared to a baby nuke, and the portal reaches into other dimensions.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/29373449/Iron_Fist_07_-_Iron_First_Must_Die_-_15.jpg.html

What kind of energy are we talking about for Carrier's portals? Does it have any instances of dealing with things that disrupt interdimensional portals?
It has been opened pretty close to the sun before. Time-travel, other dimensions, it works by using the Bleed.

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/2/23992/4153788-captainatomarmageddon8-007.jpg
http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/2/23992/4153792-captainatomarmageddon8-008.jpg
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/2/23992/4153813-captainatomarmageddon8-011.jpg

At those distances, it's rather larger than a baby nuke. To my knowledge, however, no one has exploded mid transport - because no one has been able to do so. It's instantaneous. My scans also show an overloaded Apollo, so powerful he's actually dying from the strain, travelling through without any problems.

Someone else may be better placed to have the scans, though.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It has been opened pretty close to the sun before. Time-travel, other dimensions, it works by using the Bleed.

The first one isn't really that impressive unless it was inside of the sun too. That's not what I am really talking about either. The sun isn't something esoteric that can destroy interdimensional portals.



That's not what this is about. The interdimensional portal itself exploded as a result of Danny punching it.

It wasn't near it. It was it.

Just being near the sun isn't impressive either. The surface is nowhere near as hot as the core for example.

Nukes can reach tens of millions of degrees.



Does Apollo have a history of fooling around with space and time with his powers?



Okay.

DarkSaint85
Regardless: Destroying one portal...it isn't as if Mids can't order more. Whilst Danny is disorientated.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Regardless: Destroying one portal...it isn't as if Mids can't order more. Whilst Danny is disorientated.

If he is not caught in the explosions himself, and what does Midnighter have against ghosts? While we're at there's AOE to consider as some of Danny's chi blasts can take out whole loads of cyborb ninjas out at once.

If Midnighter starts opening them up everywhere there are going to be explosions all over the place.

Which Danny has a better chance at surviving thanks to his energy absorption. As seen with Radion, and with Master Khan.

DarkSaint85
Wait, does Dannyopen fights spamming ghosts etc? And how will he achieve this when all Mids has to do is think 'door'? Which completely and instantly encases Danny, with any ensuing explosion being shunted away?

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait, does Dannyopen fights spamming ghosts etc? And how will he achieve this when all Mids has to do is think 'door'? Which completely and instantly encases Danny, with any ensuing explosion being shunted away?

I'll just repeat what I said earlier.

I am referring to Iron Fist being able to transform back into a human being (sort of) after being reduced to a ghost, and giving said ghost substance again after bridging the dimensional gap in the afterlife.

Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #23

http://i.imgur.com/fWatTco.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lcVDjfn.jpg

Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #24

http://i.imgur.com/Bhcpmeo.png
http://i.imgur.com/xfpa0vX.jpg

It's only after this that he makes a complete resurrection though.

http://i.imgur.com/Ypzaeec.jpg

So, it's more like using his ghost to substitute his body.

As for the explosion it would be the Door itself exploding not Danny. So, how exactly is the Door going to contain itself?

There's nothing going to be transported if Danny is already using chi. Assuming that he starts the fight off charging his Iron Fist or something. That or a chi blast. Maybe fireballs. Who knows.

If the Door manages to send him away before he can use chi maybe it can but otherwise the Door itself would be unstable.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh, I'm talking about the 2nd panel here:
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/3085733-2.png
One guy's hand can be seen, outlined in yellow/orange. 2nd guy's waist is already disappearing, etc etc. They're being sent away. In mid-battle. Nothing Danny can do, because the whole point about doors is that they are EVERYWHERE at once, within 'our' dimension, as it were. He can't evade it, because he is surrounded by it. You almost have to think in higher dimensions to understand it. Jumping around doesn't work, because you're being cut and pasted from one location to the other.

As to the vocalisation/rectangular portals? Guess it looks cooler, I suppose.

Midnighter isn't at the origin of that feat.

It's the Doctor whom used the power of Jenny Quantum with the doors who did it.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/apollo-vs-blue-marvel-1609774/?page=6#js-message-13865543

DarkSaint85
Never said it was Midnighter...he cannot door, lol.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never said it was Midnighter...he cannot door, lol.

Well, he can ask the Carrier to make a door thanks to their mechanical telepathic link but anyway with Midnighter physical stats, combat experience and battle computer Danny is toasted.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Midnighter isn't at the origin of that feat.

It's the Doctor whom used the power of Jenny Quantum with the doors who did it.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/apollo-vs-blue-marvel-1609774/?page=6#js-message-13865543

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Well, he can ask the Carrier to make a door thanks to their mechanical telepathic link but anyway with Midnighter physical stats, combat experience and battle computer Danny is toasted.

So it's literally not something Midnighter can do on his own and requires outside help from someone not in this match.

Alright then, Danny baby shakes.

RealityWarper
Yep.

The doors comes from the Carrier itself.

However both versions of Midnighter stomps Danny.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Yep.

The doors comes from the Carrier itself.

However both versions of Midnighter stomps Danny.

The only Door that might be a problem Midnighter can't even use without Jenny Quantum, and the ones he can use are easily dealt with.

Nope, and by virtue of the fact you frequent comicvine I am going to go ahead and say you're not entirely unbiased either.

It also explains a lot about your debating style. Now I know where it comes from.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
The only Door that might be a problem Midnighter can't even use without Jenny Quantum, and the ones he can use are easily dealt with.

Nope, and by virtue of the fact you frequent comicvine I am going to go ahead and say you're not entirely unbiased either.

It also explains a lot about your debating style. Now I know where it comes from.

You don't get it...

Midnighter can use doors...

That's just the way the doors are used in the scan that have been posted isn't the feat of Midnighter, this particular way to use them has a precise context which Midnighter can't replicate.

Rofl. I'm totally unbiased. If you paid more attention to what I've said you should know it.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
You don't get it...

Midnighter can use doors...

That's just the way the doors are used in the scan that have been posted isn't the feat of Midnighter, this particular way to use them has a precise context which Midnighter can't replicate.

Rofl. I'm totally unbiased. If you paid more attention to what I've said you should know it.

You said Midnighter would win despite not having anything that he needs in order to do this. You're disguising it as an attempt at being reasonable while at the same time not being reasonable.

I say the bias because comicvine is notoriously infamous for this sort of thing on the OBD, Spacebattles, and what have you.

The particular kind of Door that Midnighter needs here he doesn't have, and his garden variety is much easier to take care of.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
You said Midnighter would win despite not having anything that he needs in order to do this. You're disguising it as an attempt at being reasonable while at the same time not being reasonable.

I say the bias because comicvine is notoriously infamous for this sort of thing on the OBD, Spacebattles, and what have you.

The particular kind of Door that Midnighter needs here he doesn't have, and his garden variety is much easier to take care of.

1) Danny has nothing to counter the battle computer.

2) I'm not comicvine so stop immediately your hasty generalization.

3) I've never made a single argument about Midnighter using a door in this thread so stop with strawman.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
1) Danny has nothing to counter the battle computer.

Besides the fact Danny is faster, tougher, stronger? Specifically has fooled telepathy and the like with his drunken style



Going by your debating style? Yeah, you are.

1) The use of databooks.

2) The casual dismissal of nearly any and all feats.

3) The positively brain melting opinions.

The list goes on.



Oh, really?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Well, he can ask the Carrier to make a door thanks to their mechanical telepathic link but anyway with Midnighter physical stats, combat experience and battle computer Danny is toasted.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
You don't get it...

Midnighter can use doors...

That's just the way the doors are used in the scan that have been posted isn't the feat of Midnighter, this particular way to use them has a precise context which Midnighter can't replicate.

Rofl. I'm totally unbiased. If you paid more attention to what I've said you should know it.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
Besides the fact Danny is faster, tougher, stronger?


Based on ?



That's completely irrelevant against Midnighter's battle computer as it calculate every possible scenario.



Everybody don't debate the same way on comicvine, you should know if you wasn't a rookie.



Canon sources:

There is no problems in using Databooks (the OHOTMU for Marvel and the Secret Files & Origins) as they are canon to both their Universes. They are official informations given by Marvel and DC , so the reader can understand their characters better.

Same stuff with the Datafiles, which are part of some stories like Dark Reign, Storming Asgard, etc...


Non-Canon sources:

Everything not published by the main company itself which gives unreliable information besides the interviews like Marvel Fact Files, Eaglemoss Chess Collection Books, DC & Marvel Encyclopedias, etc...

Those are not canon and should not be taken seriously.



I didn't dismiss any feats, I replaced them in their proper context instead.



LOL.

Random Comment.




A) I was speaking with Darksaint85 how the doors are managed as a power for Midnighter, I didn't make a claim about Midnighter using them in this thread.

B) Same stuff here.

You should pay more attention.

leonidas
not even sure the doors would be necessary if this is pre-nu midnighter (i know less about nu nighter). with his computerized scenarios, danny would be in trouble even without the doors....

RealityWarper
Originally posted by leonidas
not even sure the doors would be necessary if this is pre-nu midnighter (i know less about nu nighter). with his computerized scenarios, danny would be in trouble even without the doors....

That's my point.

The doors aren't necessary at all.

Midnighter has enough striking power and his combat skills + the computer makes him faster than Danny in combat as he can anticipate everything

cdtm
Pre MN's got some nice feats, but not "that" nice.

Danny should take him. (He could take Zealot, too, imo.)

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Based on ?

I already posted it on the first freaking page.

Power Man & Iron Fist #89

https://i.imgur.com/ciYjoBD.jpg

Deflecting dozens of flechettes at once, and creating numerous afterimages.

Power Man & Iron Fist #50

https://i.imgur.com/apaLQqQ.jpg

Catching a bullet with bare hands.

Immortal Iron Fist Annual

https://i.imgur.com/mzHglT3.jpg

He is able to move within the time-frame of a microsecond.

Iron Fist v3 #1

http://imgur.com/a/TiUNn

It only takes him 0.05 seconds to charge and use his Iron Fist.

Power Man & Iron Fist #54

https://i.imgur.com/WOnwAf0.jpg




No limit fallacy.

The drunken style has worked against people who can literally know what Daniel Rand is planning to do next.



It's impossible to debate on comicvine due to the draconic, and positively asinine moderation. You could be permanently banned simply for disagreeing on something even if you provide evidence.



Yes, there is problem.

As they are notoriously inconsistent and don't take into account what characters have actually even done.



Only if they adhere to what is actually seen, and stated in the story itself. They are secondary sources. That's it.



Interviews or questions are not reliable either. As you people such as Stan Lee saying Galactus is the strongest character in Marvel bar none, and Tom Breevort saying that Black Panther is stronger than Silver Surfer.

The writers and editors themselves can incredibly stupid.




No, you dimissed them and ignored context that proved you wrong whilst fixating certain statements by cutting them out of the rest of what was said.




There are people on comicvine who think Thor from the MCU is more powerful than Thor from 616.



You specifically stated that he can use the rectangular variety in an attempt rebuke me. When I never said he couldn't. Then said he so much more powerful that he doesn't even need Door.

When he does.



This coming from the guy who ignores the mountains of evidence that I provide.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
That's my point.

The doors aren't necessary at all.

Midnighter has enough striking power and his combat skills + the computer makes him faster than Danny in combat as he can anticipate everything

The Doors are necessary, and what I was saying was that you were bringing them when I never said that Midnighter couldn't use the garden variety.

That's not the same as speed. You need to actually be able to move fast enough to react to what you see is going to happen. Otherwise, the only thing it does is give you a glimpse of your own death before it's already too late to do anything about it.

As I already noted Iron Fist can counter people who literally know what he is planning to do next.

Sharivan
Also, I can't forget this.

He catches a bullet here after Brenda tries to kill herself. Do keep in mind since the gun was right next to her head? That means the timeframe he had to cross the distance had to be incredibly tiny.

Iron Fist: The Living Weapon #12

http://imgur.com/a/Fup9N

Zack M
Originally posted by leonidas
not even sure the doors would be necessary if this is pre-nu midnighter (i know less about nu nighter). with his computerized scenarios, danny would be in trouble even without the doors....

I agree.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/MR_zpsashkeaq7.jpg

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/MR2_zpsmnitatqi.jpg

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/MR3_zpsxjqbfvee.jpg

Zack M
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/MR4_zpsfrtuvwrl.jpg

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/MR5_zpsg3x96gpo.jpg

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/MR6_zpsatrynbye.jpg

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/MR7_zpsiqudu8t0.jpg

carver9
Ironfist 8/10

Zack M
Mids ko's him in less than a second.

Sharivan
Originally posted by Zack M
Mids ko's him in less than a second.

Iron Fist punches his head off in less than 0.06 seconds.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
I already posted it on the first freaking page.

Power Man & Iron Fist #89

https://i.imgur.com/ciYjoBD.jpg

Deflecting dozens of flechettes at once, and creating numerous afterimages.

Power Man & Iron Fist #50

https://i.imgur.com/apaLQqQ.jpg

Catching a bullet with bare hands.

Immortal Iron Fist Annual

https://i.imgur.com/mzHglT3.jpg

He is able to move within the time-frame of a microsecond.

Iron Fist v3 #1

http://imgur.com/a/TiUNn

It only takes him 0.05 seconds to charge and use his Iron Fist.

Power Man & Iron Fist #54

https://i.imgur.com/WOnwAf0.jpg


Unfortunately.

All the scans that you are spamming in threads are irrelevant and worse than that misinterpreted.

You didn't post a single feat that could turn the tables in Iron Fist's favor.



Mr X low-grade telepathy is far from being close to Midnighter's computer...

If there is a "no limit fallacy" it is yours for bringing up the Drunken Style as a possible way to counter Midnighter's battle computer.



You are mistaking Comic Vine with other forums.



The only inconsistency here is your personal interpretation of Iron Fist's abilities.



They are a legit source of information whatever you like it or not.



You know better than the writers and editors, right ?




*sigh*



Completely irrelevant.



The doors are not needed to beat Iron Fist.



This coming from the guy whom will not agree with someone using hyperbolic statements and cognitive bias as evidence.



Necessary to what ?




Useless attempt at paraphrasing an argument.

Danny Rand has zero feat that could make us believes that he is too fast for Midnighter to be tagged as both fight at human speeds.



Rofl.

Nope.

You overplayed a Kung-Fu Drunken Style in order to make Iron Fist look stronger and have a mean to counter Midnighter's battle computer.

Which isn't the case and you should know it if you actually had read a single comic book with Midnighter.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Unfortunately.

All the scans that you are spamming in threads are irrelevant and worse than that misinterpreted.

No, they're not and you were the one butchering the context. As I made clear in the Kenshiro Gauntlet.

Not only that you added context that wasn't there. Such as Danny's punch only destroying the guidance system of that helicarrier despite the fact this is never noted, and that Danny went through that train full of explosives. When we don't see that.

You didn't post a single feat that could turn the tables in Iron Fist's favor.



Nope, it's not you're the one that claimed that Midnighter's battle computer can accommodate practically any and all scenarios.

That's a no limit fallacy.

I didn't say Danny's drunken style is undefeatable, and can't be predicted by anyone. Someone who has legitimate precognition instead of prediction or telepathy can defeat it.



No, I am not that is literally how comicvine operates. The moderators ban people at moment's notice for any sort of slight with no forewarning. Just for disagreeing with them.



No, it's your headcanon in regards to this that's contradicted by everything we see and hear in story.



They are retarded no matter how you want to ignore or pretend that isn't the case. On top of being against the rules to even use to begin with.



Yes, Tom Brevoort is literally that stupid that a random nerd on the internet knows more that he does.



That's how it is.



In regards to this particular topic? No. As it showcases how idiotic their community is.



http://i.imgur.com/fBFUW9P.gif



They're not hyperbolic statements as I made clear. How in the world are specific timeframes such as "microsecond" and "0.05 seconds" hyperbolic.

How is "hundreds of megatons" and "wiping London off the wipe if it's not stopped" hyperbolic?



They're necessary for Midnighter to defeat Iron Fist.



Despite the many instances I brought up that proves you wrong. Neither fight at human speed. I mean Jesus Christ the Midnighter is a bullet-timer at least. He was able to deflect a tank shell with a kick.

Now you're undermining his abilities too?



I didn't overplay it. The drunken style specifically allows Danny to counter people who can literally know what he is thinking, and what he is planning on doing. Simply by virtue of being that unpredictable.



I am not the one who said Midnighter fights at human speeds, and whilst I haven't read the entirety of the Authority I have read a few issues.

DarkSaint85
Midnighter's computer doesn't work like precog, not exactly.

http://i.imgur.com/DsqL5PT.jpg

He sees a scenario he likes (i.e. Midnighter wins). He then works backwards (OK, if I am to win, I need to break his leg. To break his leg, I need to do A, which makes him do B, and to do A, I need to make him do C etc etc). He in effect plans the entire fight out for both sides, then 'forces' the opponent to do it the way he wants.

IOW, Drunken Fist wouldn't counter it. As Danny wouldn't get the chance to use it.

With regards to the doors, all the Doc did was come up with the plan. Do people have scans of what Jenny did with her powers? How she changed it?

leonidas
i think that was pretty much the only time it was really defined that way. it's not precog though, you're right. he does see every possible outcome though and can counter based on the way the scenario plays out. so while it isn't precog technically, it acts much the same way in a h2h scenario. he's not unbeatable, obviously, and fist could take him, but straight h2h wouldn't be a sure thing for fist imo. throw in the doors and i don't see him winning this. digi would know off hand some of nighter's best feats and could weigh in more definitively than i could without looking back at a bunch of my older stuff. and i'm lazy....

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
No, they're not and you were the one butchering the context. As I made clear in the Kenshiro Gauntlet.

Not only that you added context that wasn't there. Such as Danny's punch only destroying the guidance system of that helicarrier despite the fact this is never noted, and that Danny went through that train full of explosives. When we don't see that.


I didn't add context.

The damage on the Hellcarrier were minimal so that's obviously something that lead the Hellcarrier to crash AKA the guidance system or similar stuff.

On the other hand you completely made-up that Danny moved at thousand of times the speed of sound in a microsecond and that he absorbed a nuke as that's not what is showed on panel.





That's normal.

There is literally less than 0 % of chance for Danny to beat Kenshiro or Midnighter.

I'm glad that you subconsciously recognized your mistake in here.




That's exactly what Midnighter's comuter is meant to do.

http://i.imgur.com/WlYva6h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DsqL5PT.jpg

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--399qnxYz--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1321990540823564690.jpg

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/2245176-untitled_scanned_23__2__2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/117571/3474243-midnighter+battle+computer.jpg

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Gfpll-iz--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1321990540678672786.png

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11119/111192788/4270070-mpcg29eb9-o.jpg




i'm glad that you recognize that pretending that an improvised Kung-Fu style coming from a Jackie Chan's movie isn't actually a mean to defeat Midnighter.



Rofl.

You are grasping at straws with your obscure terms thrown for nothing...

I don't care what you consider as legitimate.

Midnighter's battle computer will anticipate every scenario and that's all that matter.



As far as I know this kind of scenario rarely happens on comicvine.

I guess that the only reason would be a massive spam of scans and trolling on the forum like making-up a version of Iron Fist for example.



Keep believing that.



Yeah sure.

You are so out-of-argument that you insult the guys whom edited and wrote the stories.

Nice try.




Random insults thrown at a legit authority at Marvel.

Please keep discrediting yourself.




LOL




Keep spamming this thread with your nonsenses.

I already explained all that shit in the other thread.




The explosion isn't even close to a Nuke so it's clearly show on panel that's hyperbolic.


Nope.

He can punch his head off without it.



They do fight at human speed and stop using projectiles as a proof when there is no correlation with that and fighting in hand-to-hand.



You've just contradicted yourself once more:




LOL

Midnighter's computer has nothing to do with telepathy but please continue with definist fallacies.




You didn't say it because otherwise you will have to recognize that your favourite character is weaker than you want him to be. LULZ


Midnighter (New52) stomps and Minighter (Wildstorm) curbstomps.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Midnighter's computer doesn't work like precog, not exactly.

http://i.imgur.com/DsqL5PT.jpg

Didn't say that it did, and I specified my opinion on that here:

Originally posted by Sharivan
That's a no limit fallacy.

I didn't say Danny's drunken style is undefeatable, and can't be predicted by anyone. Someone who has legitimate precognition instead of prediction or telepathy can defeat it.

As the drunken style could simply be countered by someone who actually sees the future rather than predicting it based on what the person is thinking or doing.



Which is the problem because Midnighter is dealing someone whose fighting style is already so unpredictable that people that can literally read his mind can't predict what he would do. That, and I am pretty sure Midnighter's battle computer never thought of creating defenses against hardcore kickboxing cardio. Billy Blanks saves the day once again.

Maybe if Danny is nice enough he will teach Midnighter how to use Tae Bo as a deadly weapon.



This is the same guy who can charge and utilize his most powerful technique in the span of 0.05 seconds, and when not using it he is much faster than that.

This before Danny even gets Orson Randall's chi or starts learning from the Book of the Iron Fist.



I don't.

Which is why I was asking you or waiting for someone else. Maybe once I finish reading it but otherwise not at the moment.

Besides what RealitryWarper said, and considering that maybe I should be more suspicious of it.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sharivan
Didn't say that it did, and I specified my opinion on that here:



As the drunken style could simply be countered by someone who actually sees the future rather than predicting it based on what the person is thinking or doing.



Which is the problem because Midnighter is dealing someone whose fighting style is already so unpredictable that people that can literally read his mind can't predict what he would do. That, and I am pretty sure Midnighter's battle computer never thought of creating defenses against hardcore kickboxing cardio. Billy Blanks saves the day once again.

Maybe if Danny is nice enough he will teach Midnighter how to use Tae Bo as a deadly weapon.



This is the same guy who can charge and utilize his most powerful technique in the span of 0.05 seconds, and when not using it he is much faster than that.

This before Danny even gets Orson Randall's chi or starts learning from the Book of the Iron Fist.



I don't.

Which is why I was asking you or waiting for someone else. Maybe once I finish reading it but otherwise not at the moment.

Besides what RealitryWarper said, and considering that maybe I should be more suspicious of it.

Fair enough (with regards to the suspicion). I won't take it personally.

My point wasn't to do with the timing. My point was, I guess, that Midnighter would be forcing Danny to be on the defensive most of the time, or at least, reactive.

Imagine it like this. I want you to say the word 'medal' (the preferred outcome). So I ask you to complete this sentence (you have to answer truthfully): Hey, Sharivan, what word begins with M, you have three of them at the Olympics - gold/silver/bronze, and they are given out to winners, sounds like 'metal'? This is me setting things up for my outcome, which my brain has told me is the best scenario to get you to say 'medal'.

Now, because of the circumstances that I set up, you HAVE to say medal. Or just refuse to say it (i.e. forfeit).

That's what I mean by the chance to use it. I want you to say medal, I have decided on a course that leads to you saying it, and you have to go along with it. You can't say 'whale', or 'chair', or try saying random words...because that means you have answered the question incorrectly.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fair enough (with regards to the suspicion). I won't take it personally.

My point wasn't to do with the timing. My point was, I guess, that Midnighter would be forcing Danny to be on the defensive most of the time, or at least, reactive.

Imagine it like this. I want you to say the word 'medal' (the preferred outcome). So I ask you to complete this sentence (you have to answer truthfully): Hey, Sharivan, what word begins with M, you have three of them at the Olympics - gold/silver/bronze, and they are given out to winners, sounds like 'metal'? This is me setting things up for my outcome, which my brain has told me is the best scenario to get you to say 'medal'.

Now, because of the circumstances that I set up, you HAVE to say medal. Or just refuse to say it (i.e. forfeit).

That's what I mean by the chance to use it. I want you to say medal, I have decided on a course that leads to you saying it, and you have to go along with it. You can't say 'whale', or 'chair', or try saying random words...because that means you have answered the question incorrectly.

Here are my explanations about the Doors feat:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/apollo-vs-blue-marvel-1609774/?page=6#js-message-13865543

Saren was wrecked big time and caught using those scans out-of-context. XD

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Here are my explanations about the Doors feat:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/apollo-vs-blue-marvel-1609774/?page=6#js-message-13865543

Saren was wrecked big time and caught using those scans out-of-context. XD

That explanation doesn't matter to THIS debate, however.

The Doctor wanted to turn them into pixie dust - and Jenny helped him to do so.

However, like you said, to do so would trigger explosions. Hence, the Carrier to BFR them into the desert where they can explode harmlessly.

SO all the Carrier did, was door them. Something that I am saying Midnighter can also do. Your explanation in the thread said nothing about them being different doors, or that Jenny/Habib modded them in any way.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
I didn't add context.

You did.

You added things that weren't said or weren't seen.



Speculation that you did not support with any evidence. This is your subjective opinion right now. I am still waiting for that evidence by the way but I doubt you will provide it.



No, I didn't. You made up the fact the civilians moved in that time-frame and are ignoring that if he absorbed the brunt of it there wouldn't be that much collateral damage to begin with. That's the whole point of absorption.



I did not type that.

That was part of your post that somehow got caught into my reply. You do remember what you said here?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Unfortunately.

All the scans that you are spamming in threads are irrelevant and worse than that misinterpreted.

You didn't post a single feat that could turn the tables in Iron Fist's favor.


I suppose that it was a typographical error, and I missed that as I was busy replying to DarkSaint at the time.

Good job trying to play that up as something that it wasn't though.



Yet another straw man as egregious as the one you made prior to this.



Nope, that's the difference that I was pointing out there that you're ignoring once again.

Nice try though



Well, I don't care about your head canon. It seems we're at an impasse.



1) No limit fallacy.

2) Ignoring that prediction does not equal speed.

3) Once again dismissing everything else.

I am not surprised. This seems to be your bread and butter.




Not rarely it happened a few days ago to some of my friends simply for disagreeing on something.



No, you're the one using a head canon version of Iron Fist right now. You're ignoring context, and you're adding context not supported by evidence.

The definition comicvine has of trolling is not trolling.



Oh, I will as you have failed to bring up any counter evidence.




As they are deserving of ridicule. They are idiots you can't really argue otherwise. They make some good stories but also make some idiotic mistakes. It's called being a human being.



Tom Brevoort is to Marvel in the same sense that Celine Dion is to music. A grand tragedy that should be buried and forgotten.



*Nonsense.

It ain't spam when it's relevant evidence that you're failing to counter.



I already took it apart in that other thread. Which you have yet to actually provide a counter argument for.



Most likely due to the Iron Fist's ability to absorb energy. As that would mean it wouldn't be as big as it should be anyway.



Nope, Midnighter really can't. As I already explained in triplicate.

You're going to ignore that though.



Yes, there is.



No, I did not. There was nothing I said that contradicted myself. I noted that someone with actual precognition instead of prediction or telepathy can do it.



No, but it has everything to do with prediction. Which the drunken fist counters even when the person doing the predicting can literally read your mind.



Nope, I didn't say it because Midnighter is fast enough to kick tank shells away. Which you're ignoring once again. As I already noted you're undermining Midnighter.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That explanation doesn't matter to THIS debate, however.

The Doctor wanted to turn them into pixie dust - and Jenny helped him to do so.

However, like you said, to do so would trigger explosions. Hence, the Carrier to BFR them into the desert where they can explode harmlessly.

SO all the Carrier did, was door them. Something that I am saying Midnighter can also do. Your explanation in the thread said nothing about them being different doors, or that Jenny/Habib modded them in any way.

I didn't precise that Jenny / Habib modded the doors because it seemed obvious from my point of view.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
You did.

You added things that weren't said or weren't seen.



Speculation that you did not support with any evidence. This is your subjective opinion right now. I am still waiting for that evidence by the way but I doubt you will provide it.



No, I didn't. You made up the fact the civilians moved in that time-frame and are ignoring that if he absorbed the brunt of it there wouldn't be that much collateral damage to begin with. That's the whole point of absorption.



I did not type that.

That was part of your post that somehow got caught into my reply. You do remember what you said here?



I suppose that it was a typographical error, and I missed that as I was busy replying to DarkSaint at the time.

Good job trying to play that up as something that it wasn't though.



Yet another straw man as egregious as the one you made prior to this.



Nope, that's the difference that I was pointing out there that you're ignoring once again.

Nice try though



Well, I don't care about your head canon. It seems we're at an impasse.



1) No limit fallacy.

2) Ignoring that prediction does not equal speed.

3) Once again dismissing everything else.

I am not surprised. This seems to be your bread and butter.




Not rarely it happened a few days ago to some of my friends simply for disagreeing on something.



No, you're the one using a head canon version of Iron Fist right now. You're ignoring context, and you're adding context not supported by evidence.

The definition comicvine has of trolling is not trolling.



Oh, I will as you have failed to bring up any counter evidence.




As they are deserving of ridicule. They are idiots you can't really argue otherwise. They make some good stories but also make some idiotic mistakes. It's called being a human being.



Tom Brevoort is to Marvel in the same sense that Celine Dion is to music. A grand tragedy that should be buried and forgotten.



*Nonsense.

It ain't spam when it's relevant evidence that you're failing to counter.



I already took it apart in that other thread. Which you have yet to actually provide a counter argument for.



Most likely due to the Iron Fist's ability to absorb energy. As that would mean it wouldn't be as big as it should be anyway.



Nope, Midnighter really can't. As I already explained in triplicate.

You're going to ignore that though.



Yes, there is.



No, I did not. There was nothing I said that contradicted myself. I noted that someone with actual precognition instead of prediction or telepathy can do it.



No, but it has everything to do with prediction. Which the drunken fist counters even when the person doing the predicting can literally read your mind.



Nope, I didn't say it because Midnighter is fast enough to kick tank shells away. Which you're ignoring once again. As I already noted you're undermining Midnighter.

Once more nothing worth responding in your post.

Midnighter blows IF head off.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by RealityWarper
I didn't precise that Jenny / Habib modded the doors because it seemed obvious from my point of view.

Yah. Whereas my viewpoint is that the Carrier did all the dooring on her own, and Habib just wanted (not needed) Jenny's help in pixie dusting them as it made it easier.

The Carrier wasn't modded, nor were the doors. They managed to call 666 doors onto people, and it sent them away.

Something that Midnighter can call for here as well. He doesn't need Jenny/Habib's powers, because he's not turning them into pixie dust.

For Sharivan:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fair enough (with regards to the suspicion). I won't take it personally.

My point wasn't to do with the timing. My point was, I guess, that Midnighter would be forcing Danny to be on the defensive most of the time, or at least, reactive.

Imagine it like this. I want you to say the word 'medal' (the preferred outcome). So I ask you to complete this sentence (you have to answer truthfully): Hey, Sharivan, what word begins with M, you have three of them at the Olympics - gold/silver/bronze, and they are given out to winners, sounds like 'metal'? This is me setting things up for my outcome, which my brain has told me is the best scenario to get you to say 'medal'.

Now, because of the circumstances that I set up, you HAVE to say medal. Or just refuse to say it (i.e. forfeit).

That's what I mean by the chance to use it. I want you to say medal, I have decided on a course that leads to you saying it, and you have to go along with it. You can't say 'whale', or 'chair', or try saying random words...because that means you have answered the question incorrectly.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Once more nothing worth responding in your post.

Midnighter blows IF head off.

Well, besides everything that's in it that you haven't provided counter evidence for. The fact you made a blatant straw man attempt using part of your post that got caught into mine because of a typographical error.

That I would have edited if I wasn't already busy replying to DarkSaint at the time.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yah. Whereas my viewpoint is that the Carrier did all the dooring on her own, and Habib just wanted (not needed) Jenny's help in pixie dusting them as it made it easier.

The Carrier wasn't modded, nor were the doors. They managed to call 666 doors onto people, and it sent them away.

Something that Midnighter can call for here as well. He doesn't need Jenny/Habib's powers, because he's not turning them into pixie dust.


One important page was missing but I will post all that is needed here :

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471905144-number-of-the-beast-2008-007-011.jpg


http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471905150-number-of-the-beast-2008-007-014.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471905153-number-of-the-beast-2008-007-017.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471905144-number-of-the-beast-2008-007-018.jpg

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
Well, besides everything that's in it that you haven't provided counter evidence for. The fact you made a blatant straw man attempt using part of your post that got caught into mine because of a typographical error.

That I would have edited if I wasn't already busy replying to DarkSaint at the time.

1) I didn't do any strawman.

2) I quoted twice your post on purpose in my answer to show that you are contradicting yourself.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fair enough (with regards to the suspicion). I won't take it personally.

Which brings back the possibility of the other Door you brought up. Which I dismissed because of what RealityWarper said. So, I retract my previous statement on that.



The thing is Danny is the one with the huge AOE, and he is able to charge his chi so quickly that it's probably Midnighter who would be on the defense here. As I already mentioned the charge for his chi is ridiculously short. That coupled with the speed advantage (probably), energy absorption, and the volatile effects it has inter-dimensional portals?



I am not sure how that applies here.

DarkSaint85
Gotcha. The Doc/Jenny's powers were used to aid the Carrier in opening 666 escape routes. My bad.

Luckily, Midnighter only needs one here evil face

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
1) I didn't do any strawman.

2) I quoted twice your post on purpose in my answer to show that you are contradicting yourself.

1) Yes, you did. It's quite clear.

2) You're admitting that you're purposely trying to dishonestly represent my side of the argument?

I haven't contradicted myself there. That was part of your post that got stuck into mine. Word for word.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Gotcha. The Doc/Jenny's powers were used to aid the Carrier in opening 666 escape routes. My bad.

Luckily, Midnighter only needs one here evil face

Yep.

I was very surprised about Saren's claim myself because that's an unusual way to use the doors.

That's a good teamwork anyway. stick out tongue

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
1) Yes, you did. It's quite clear.

2) You're admitting that you're purposely trying to dishonestly represent my side of the argument?

I haven't contradicted myself there. That was part of your post that got stuck into mine. Word for word.

Instead of trying to discredit me why don't you try posting some combat feats for Iron Fist that could give some weight to your claims ? hum

DarkSaint85
JOriginally posted by Sharivan
Which brings back the possibility of the other Door you brought up. Which I dismissed because of what RealityWarper said. So, I retract my previous statement on that.



The thing is Danny is the one with the huge AOE, and he is able to charge his chi so quickly that it's probably Midnighter who would be on the defense here. As I already mentioned the charge for his chi is ridiculously short. That coupled with the speed advantage (probably), energy absorption, and the volatile effects it has inter-dimensional portals?



I am not sure how that applies here.

Yeah, RealityWarper has now clarified and showed that the Doc/Jenny never changed the nature of the doors, only the carrier's ability to open so many at once. Which is not applicable here, as he has only one target (or at least, 10 or so. Not 666).

It applies, because whilst IF DOES have the offensive advantage, he doesn't get to use it because of the way Midnighter sets the fight up.

Same way that you may have the advantage on me, with a larger vocabulary. You can say any word you like when I ask the question about the medals - but there is only ONE word that would answer me correctly. You can try saying 'chair', or 'table', or 'book' - but I have rigged the game to mean that answering the question means saying the word that I predicted you would say.

So yes, IF DOES have the ability for ghosts, healing, AoE punches, Drunken Fists, Tae Bo etc. Not saying he can't do it.

But the fight has been rigged, because Midnighter wants a certain outcome to happen. And has worked backwards from that outcome, to plan the entire fight out. The human body only has so many ways it can punch, so many ways it can kick, or headbutt, for example.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Instead of trying to discredit me why don't you try posting some combat feats for Iron Fist that could give some weight to your claims ? hum

I haven't tried to discredit you. You have done a good job of doing that yourself. I already provided the evidence right there.

It doesn't matter what you think.

That's what happened.

Now you openly admitted to trying to butcher my posts.

I already posted a bunch of speed feats.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Immortal Iron Fist #23

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373418_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-008.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373419_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-009.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373420_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-010.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373421_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-011.jpg

Dodging four different bullets at once, and does so in slow motion so we can see the bullets in mid-air.

Power Man & Iron Fist #89

https://i.imgur.com/ciYjoBD.jpg

Deflecting dozens of flechettes at once, and creating numerous afterimages.

Power Man & Iron Fist #50

https://i.imgur.com/apaLQqQ.jpg


Catching a bullet with bare hands.

Immortal Iron Fist Annual

https://i.imgur.com/mzHglT3.jpg

He is able to move within the time-frame of a microsecond.

Iron Fist v3 #1

http://imgur.com/a/TiUNn

It only takes him 0.05 seconds to charge and use his Iron Fist.

Power Man & Iron Fist #54

https://i.imgur.com/WOnwAf0.jpg

He is able to easily defeat a giant dragon.

Immortal Weapons #5

http://imgur.com/a/0EXnr

He is able to take down a helicarrier with a single blow.

New Avengers #59

http://imgur.com/a/BHP0F

The collateral damage from his Iron Fist is compared to a hydrogen bomb.

Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #20

http://imgur.com/a/76zEa

He is able to murder Zhu-Rong, a God of Fire and Universal Order in a single punch.

Iron Fist: ILW #11

https://i.imgur.com/5ckAEMV.jpg

As well as here.

Originally posted by Sharivan
There is also the instance where Daniel Rand punches through a helicopter by leaping towards it from the side of a skyscraper. As he fights a bunch of ninjas amidst free fall.

Iron Fist: TLW #1

http://i.imgur.com/T4O2wy9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yWDgHjD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aWlxCn9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YhIuwyF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JVnp7lp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DsZ7WJI.jpg

He leaped all the way from the skyscraper, through the helicopter, and made it back in one piece.

He catches a bullet here after Brenda tries to kill herself. Do keep in mind since the gun was right next to her head? That means the timeframe he had to cross the distance had to be incredibly tiny.

Iron Fist: The Living Weapon #12

http://imgur.com/a/Fup9N

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, RealityWarper has now clarified and showed that the Doc/Jenny never changed the nature of the doors, only the carrier's ability to open so many at once. Which is not applicable here, as he has only one target (or at least, 10 or so. Not 666).

So, it's usable as was the initial argument you made?



As I already noted prediction only gets you so far. You need the actually strength and speed to back you up. There are a lot force users for example who can genuinely sense the future rather than predicting it but it still wouldn't be usable against people faster than they are.



This would have to work under the assumption that Midnighter is as fast, and is strong enough to actually hurt Iron Fist here.

The prior is necessary because as I noted prediction or precognition is useless if you're not fast enough to use it. In order for Midnighter to rig the fight in his favor he has to be able to act on his predictions, and then move to set out his plans.

That's the limitation of being able to predict the future or see the future. You yourself need to actually be fast and strong enough that there is scenario where you can actually rig the fight.

It's the same with practitioners of the Hercules Method from the Luther Strode trilogy. They can predict the future but there's only so much they can do. There's also the fact that in the case of prediction there are factors you can't accommodate.

Say for instance a sudden eruption of chi. As that's not some typical punch or kick.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sharivan
So, it's usable as was the initial argument you made?
I see it so, and based on the full scans that REality has posted, plus my own foggy memory, I am confident it can be.

Other can disagree, of course.



And Mids HAS used it against faster/stronger people. That's kinda his shtick.



Not quite true. I know, for example, that a sniper will shoot me precisely 20 seconds from now. I simply change my location, and come up behind him and knife him in the back.

Am I faster than a bullet? Hell no. Am I faster in combat speed than some Navy SEAL? Probably (definitely) not. But I knew what he was going to do, where he was going to be located, and could act accordingly.


Which is what Mids does. He has the happy ending he wants, and works backwards. What does he need to do to ensure it happens?


True. Which brings me to the next argument - his enhanced senses. And again, I refer back to the word game analogy. Sure, you COULD say all manner of random words at me. But you won't/can't, if you want to answer the question correctly (which is analogous to blocking a Midnighter punch, for example). I've gone through every single possible way, and every single possible word you could've said, and have settled on wording my question exactly so that it limits you to saying one.

RealityWarper
...

Scan spamming with the same misinterpretations...

I will make a joy to tear apart all of this in the Kenshiro Gauntlet omfg

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
...

Scan spamming with the same misinterpretations...

I will make a joy to tear apart all of this in the Kenshiro Gauntlet omfg

You're seriously going to try and restart that argument days after it was finished?

You know, I would commend you on your tenacity but this is just insane.

By then way have you gotten to this yet?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t631394.html

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
You're seriously going to try and restart that argument days after it was finished?

You know, I would commend you on your tenacity but this is just insane.

By then way have you gotten to this yet?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t631394.html

Nothing was finished.

I ain't even started. XD

I'm not interested in Star Wars threads.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I see it so, and based on the full scans that REality has posted, plus my own foggy memory, I am confident it can be.

Other can disagree, of course.

I feel the same way.



That doesn't work though. If he has that means he is comparable in speed to them. It doesn't mean his battle computer can somehow find a way around this.

You need to actually act on it in time.



That still leaves you at a distinct disadvantage. As you need much more time in order to prepare for this beforehand. Against someone who is near you, and can move that much in far less than a second?



Which would require Midnighter to have some preparation here. You said they were how far apart again? I remember 0.5 kilometers. That would probably give Midnighter needs for a Door but as I said before. There's Danny's chi to consider, and if Danny closes the distance?

Well, Midnighter is in trouble because then he won't have that time.



He needs time. The distance can provide that but at close range he would be at a disadvantage. That's what I am saying here. It requires time with prediction and precognition.



Which is?

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Nothing was finished.

I ain't even started. XD

I'm not interested in Star Wars threads.

It was, and you're just going to repeat the same dishonest rhetoric I imagine. Which is going to waste my time again. On top of probably breaking the board rules again.

So then, you're not even going to try?

Very well, if you're not going to bother there. I am not going to bother with you once you spew some thirty pages of keyboard vomit.

Do keep in mind.

An argument from silence is a fallacious tactic.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
It was, and you're just going to repeat the same dishonest rhetoric I imagine. Which is going to waste my time again. On top of probably breaking the board rules again.

So then, you're not even going to try?

Very well, if you're not going to bother there. I am not going to bother with you once you spew some thirty pages of keyboard vomit.

Do keep in mind.

An argument from silence is a fallacious tactic.

LOL

You are the one whom pretended that I was making a concession because I wasn't answering to the thread which IS a fallacious argument coming from you.

You will see my answer asap in the Kenshiro Gauntlet.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
LOL

You are the one whom pretended that I was making a concession because I wasn't answering to the thread which IS a fallacious argument coming from you.

You will see my answer asap.

Nope, I asked if you were conceding or not because you didn't answer. Then you tried to say I said you did concede. Which I never claimed that you did.

As I already made clear earlier that was a straw man on your part. You know, kind of like when you tried to play off part of what you typed that got caught in my reply as my own words?

I don't particularly care because I am not bothering with that much keyboard vomit. Well, unless I get that bored.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
Nope, I asked if you were conceding or not because you didn't answer. Then you tried to say I said you did concede. Which I never claimed that you did.

As I already made clear earlier that was a straw man on your part. You know, kind of like when you tried to play off part of what you typed that got caught in my reply as my own words?

I don't particularly care because I am not bothering with that much keyboard vomit. Well, unless I get that bored.

1) That's not what you said. I've said that I will not respond AGAIN to your asking (I've already did it) and you said that my concession was accepted.

Do you quit lying sometimes ?

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471909286-lie.jpg

2) You believe that it's a straw man because you don't understand what a straw man is. Continue your trolling anyway it's not like you are the first doing that on the internet. It's always more complicated to be positive than drowning in all that negativism. LOL

3) Do you mean with your keyboard vomit ? So far you failed to recognize your own mistakes about your claims, even it has been pointed out that you was skipping the context you redefined your claims by making-up a new context.

LOL

It has been crazy to the point that you currently believe that Iron Fist has the power to absorb nukes, oh my god...

That's an hard case of cognitive dissonance here.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sharivan

That doesn't work though. If he has that means he is comparable in speed to them. It doesn't mean his battle computer can somehow find a way around this.

Can't speak for pre-52 Midnighter, but Zack posted a scan of DCnU Midnighter taking down a guy who was Flash-level in speed, and was actively trying to kill Mids. So was doing precisely that (unless you want to make a case for him being Flash-level, lol). But he was explicitly working round it with his computer.



Midnighter did this:

http://www.brucetringale.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Authority_06.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123873/2878197-2215668-2_super.png

Note the distance. How fast are these guys, though?

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee153/BadAss99/Apollo/Feats%20and%20junk/speed/number%201/3.jpg

He can be fast. IF there is a gap in speed between these two combatants (of course, debateable), it will be quite small, which can be exploited by the computer and doors.


As seen above, he completely and utterly blitzed (and not just with one punch, but completely decimated him) a guy who was matching Apollo in closing speed.


He has time, and can always door around. With his fight against Seth, he was porting all over the world. Against Apollo, he was using the doors midfight:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119495/3967682-durability%2C+tanked+a+punch+from+apollo.jpg


'Sharivan, out of all the words in every language ever, what English word begins with 'M', ending with 'Edal', rhymes with 'Metal', and has five letters? They give three of these out to Olympic winners, and these are traditionally made of gold, silver or bronze. It has to be a real word as found in Webster's Dictionary.'

I predict you will say 'Medal'. If you want to answer my question. But if you don't answer, and answer correctly, I win.

You are free to answer with ANY word you wish, or any combination of letters/numbers, be as random as you want. Do whatever you want. Get drunk, and spell words drunkenly if you want.

But my prediction is that you will say medal.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
1) That's not what you said. I've said that I will not respond AGAIN to your asking (I've already did it) and you said that my concession was accepted.

Do you quit lying sometimes ?

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471909286-lie.jpg

Yet another straw man. I wasn't referring to that at all. I was talking about what we were talking about earlier.

Originally posted by Sharivan
These scrubs not understanding the SUPERIOR fighting styles of Billy Blanks fitness instructor, and it's unmatched supremacy even among the likes of Black Panther.

Billy Blanks is obviously one of the best of the best in 616.

Niggas hatin' on his swaggity swag.

By the way, RealityWarper don't you have some threads you need to reply to or should I take your absence of a reply as a concession?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
1) Someone was asked to stop bikering with me. It seems that the message didn't reach.

2) On topic everyone on the team can easily solo and beat Danny Rand considering he isn't even in the same tier than Wolverine and Captain America when it comes to the combat skills, meaning that he isn't even close to Batman, Cassandra Cain and Batwing neither...

In short, the team stomps hard.

3) I guess that every logical fallacies would have been used against my arguments but this one is pretty obvious.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/33/1471811939-argumentfromsilence.jpg

As you can see I clearly asked you first.

So, you're taking something out of context and using it to rebuke me. When I never made that particular claim there.

I was referring to that exchange, and nothing else.



You believe it's not a straw man because you purposely misunderstood what I was referring to begin with and tried to rebuke that.

Which is a straw man.



I am not the one who openly admitted to trying to purposely misrepresent another person's argument, and doing so with pride. As if it's something that should win you a medal or something.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
1) I didn't do any strawman.

2) I quoted twice your post on purpose in my answer to show that you are contradicting yourself.

As seen here.



Now you're projecting your own failures onto me. When you are the one guilty of this behavior. You even openly admit to trying to sabotage my posts, and make them come off as if I was contradicting myself when I wasn't. It's pretty clear from what I can see.



As seen in Iron Fist's fight with Master Khan it's explicitly noted that what he was doing with Radion's attacks was the same as what he was doing Master Khan's spells.

I have been over this already.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Can't speak for pre-52 Midnighter, but Zack posted a scan of DCnU Midnighter taking down a guy who was Flash-level in speed, and was actively trying to kill Mids. So was doing precisely that (unless you want to make a case for him being Flash-level, lol). But he was explicitly working round it with his computer.

Which doesn't make any sense because prediction is not going to help against someone who is faster than light. The only way this does make sense is if he has some fraction of this person's speed.

As I noted before prediction or precognition is not supposed to actually help with a gap of speed this humongous.



If Midnighter is actually fast enough to keep up with Iron Fist, yes. Which would be the case if you assume those fights were legitimate and not the writers being idiots. By not realizing the different correlation between prediction and movement.



So then, how fast is Apollo and what showings does Midnighter have to support this sort of speed outside of combat? What has he done that's not subject to the inconsistency of fights in comic books?



If Midnighter is actually as fast as Iron Fist, and if the former isn't wrecked by one of the latter's helicarrier destroying punches. This will help Midnighter in terms of defense, and in closing the distance between them but if the distance is closed the advantage is Iron Fist's due to superior statistics. As well as AOE, and chi disrupting inter-dimensional portals.



As I already noted before Midnighter's predictions does not excuse any difference in physical ability. As well as any counters Iron Fist may have that are not easily predicted.

cdtm
Originally posted by Sharivan



As I already noted before Midnighter's predictions does not excuse any difference in physical ability. As well as any counters Iron Fist may have that are not easily predicted.

And besides, it's not like Iron Fist hasn't fought peers who can predict his every move.

Iron Fist Killer? Strong enough and fast enough to take down Luke Cage and Fat Cobra, and read Danny like a book after absorbing his ki.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Sharivan
Yet another straw man. I wasn't referring to that at all. I was talking about what we were talking about earlier.




As you can see I clearly asked you first.

So, you're taking something out of context and using it to rebuke me. When I never made that particular claim there.

I was referring to that exchange, and nothing else.


You are clearly inferring that if I don't answer to the thread I'm conceding thus you're making an argument from silence.

Thanks for proving my point.



Nope.

I just proved that you use the argument from silence on daily basis.




I should win a medal for answering to you when you are openly trolling.



As seen here the continuous misinterpretation of Iron Fist's feats via completely ignoring the context and making-up explanations. GG



Nice try.



Once again that's a gross misinterpretation.

I will expose with force details why you are a liar and or someone whom is relying on cognitive dissonance instead of reading the comic at hand.

I'm sure that you have been calling out about it before and you claims ridiculed.



Unfortunately what you are trying to make pass as an ability to absorb explosion was only Danny absorbing radiation from his hand-to-hand with Radion and surviving because he is more durable than a normal human, as he is peak human because he is summoning his Chi.

Same stuff with Master Khan about the damages...

Danny didn't broke the Crimson band neither because:

A) The spell is shown being dissipated on panel, after Danny calls Yu-Ti upon his responsibility on Danny's parents death, thus making Master Kahn's request accepted by default.
B) Danny summon his Iron Fist AFTER the Crimson bands are dissipated.
C) The Iron Fist enhance the striking power and not the strength thus making it impossible for Danny to destroy the Crimson band via sheer force...

Those 3 points, like many others, literally fly over your head because hey, why reading a character from a comic book when you can create your own, isn't it ?





Nope.

You scan spamming is a proof of it, you can't evolve.

And about Danny's combat speed and the overhyped "Drunk Fist", here is the full context:

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471912290-tbolts-137-010.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471912299-tbolts-137-011.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471912303-tbolts-137-012.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/34/1471912304-tbolts-137-013.jpg




This pretty much defuse all of your claims about Danny being able to shrugg off Nukes or move thousand of times the speed of sound or the Drunk Kung-Fu being efficient...

GG NO RE

I'm just being started.

DarkSaint85
These guys don't exist. They're fictional.

If the writers say hey, Midnighter can hit Apollo hard enough in the eardrums to burst them...then he can.

If he is able to snatch a child, completely shred a superhuman, and return to where he was standing before anyone else can move...and in the exact same storyline, they show those superhumans (all clones of each other) matching Apollo, who can cross the world in 30 seconds...then he can.

If he can one shot the Engineer, with a single headbutt etc etc...you get where I'm coming from, I hope.

That's why we don't just rely on handbooks and bios. Their feats also count. And if a character like Midnighter, who does NOT do 'space cheese' feats, but exists purely to phuck stereotypical comic archetypes up, has feats purely in battle....you cannot discount them.

If there is a gap on speed (I don't think so), it isn't massive. And if it is in favour of IF, then the computer plus doors more than evens it out.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
And besides, it's not like Iron Fist hasn't fought peers who can predict his every move.

Iron Fist Killer? Strong enough and fast enough to take down Luke Cage and Fat Cobra, and read Danny like a book after absorbing his ki.

Read my example, and my Modnighter scan. He isn't predicting based on statistics, he's predicting based on forcing.

He reduces his opponents choice to one, out of millions of different choices.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
These guys don't exist. They're fictional.

If the writers say hey, Midnighter can hit Apollo hard enough in the eardrums to burst them...then he can.

If he is able to snatch a child, completely shred a superhuman, and return to where he was standing before anyone else can move...and in the exact same storyline, they show those superhumans (all clones of each other) matching Apollo, who can cross the world in 30 seconds...then he can.

If he can one shot the Engineer, with a single headbutt etc etc...you get where I'm coming from, I hope.

That's why we don't just rely on handbooks and bios. Their feats also count. And if a character like Midnighter, who does NOT do 'space cheese' feats, but exists purely to phuck stereotypical comic archetypes up, has feats purely in battle....you cannot discount them.

If there is a gap on speed (I don't think so), it isn't massive. And if it is in favour of IF, then the computer plus doors more than evens it out.

The gap in speed between Mid and Apollo is about the way they "propel" themselves, not in hand-to-hand which is a different kind of speed.

For the rest I fugree with you.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Read my example, and my Modnighter scan. He isn't predicting based on statistics, he's predicting based on forcing.

He reduces his opponents choice to one, out of millions of different choices.

Basically, it's functionally precog, no?

The thing's hard to quantify, but I file it under the same place I put skills like "Spidey sense", which is "magic". Prediction by plot.

Between the likes of Zealot managing against the computer, and Rand going against various precognitive plot devices (Everything from the Spidey Sense and Iron Fist Killer, Mr. X's tp, to Matt's Radar Sense), at the least the BP should be a wash, imo..

DarkSaint85
Not if the computer comes up with: Door.

But as seen with my scan. Midnighter predicted the ENTIRE day, down to the conversation they were going to have. Spidey cant do that.

Iron Fist Killer can't do that.

Its more than precog. Its guessing, but guessing based on one choice.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not if the computer comes up with: Door.

Isn't that outside help?

May as well give Batman the JLA teleporter in his fights. sad

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
Isn't that outside help?

May as well give Batman the JLA teleporter in his fights. sad

Its standard gear, to me. He has used it so often in his fights. Unlike Batman, who, whilst he HAS used it, almost never does so in a fight.

I reckon out of Batman's entire history (10k appearances or more) I would still be able to find more examples of Mids using doors offensively and defensively. With Mids' 1000 or so appearances. Its well within his character to use.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not if the computer comes up with: Door.

But as seen with my scan. Midnighter predicted the ENTIRE day, down to the conversation they were going to have. Spidey cant do that.

Iron Fist Killer can't do that.

Its more than precog. Its guessing, but guessing based on one choice.

It's an impressive feat. And not one that doesn't make a little bit of sense, of you consider people are highly predictible.

Basically, what I took from that is Midnighter did a hyper version of a Google profile.. It's not like he randomly predicted someone was visiting him that he hasn't seen in 20.years, he was working with data on people and events he knew he'd be dealing with throughout the day.

Impressive, yes, but that doesn't make him Dr. Manhattan.

DarkSaint85
Oh god no, he's not Manhattan. But as seen with my example with Sharivan, I managed to whittle down an entire vocabulary of every possible language known to man....down to one word.

And I predicted it correctly.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
You are clearly inferring that if I don't answer to the thread I'm conceding thus you're making an argument from silence.

Thanks for proving my point.

Now you're arguing from fallacy, and combining that with a straw man from an entirely different argument than the one I was talking about.

Good job using more fallacious tactics.



http://i.imgur.com/9u1fApS.png

As I already noted before.

I only used it there, and I wasn't using it in reference to what I was actually talking about. What I quoted? When I asked you if you conceded or not.



This coming from the guy who admits that he is trying to discredit me in any way he can by dishonestly representing my side the best that he can?



Now I think you're blind because it clearly shows you that I asked you first before asserting that you conceded. What I said earlier in that other thread was a long time before I said that, and a different exchange I wasn't referring to.



Nice try isn't a rebuttal.



Nope, actually this is the only forum where I had any problems. Namely because of the likes of yourself, and abhilegend. Oh, and the positively poor standards of debate. Which leaves someone wanting.

The problem is your particularly odd opinions, and lowballing.



As I showed you many times before Daniel Rand is not peak human. He is blatantly superhuman.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Immortal Iron Fist #23

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373418_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-008.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373419_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-009.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373420_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-010.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29373421_Immortal_Iron_Fist_023-011.jpg

Dodging four different bullets at once, and does so in slow motion so we can see the bullets in mid-air.

Power Man & Iron Fist #89

https://i.imgur.com/ciYjoBD.jpg

Deflecting dozens of flechettes at once, and creating numerous afterimages.

Power Man & Iron Fist #50

https://i.imgur.com/apaLQqQ.jpg


Catching a bullet with bare hands.

Immortal Iron Fist Annual

https://i.imgur.com/mzHglT3.jpg

He is able to move within the time-frame of a microsecond.

Iron Fist v3 #1

http://imgur.com/a/TiUNn

It only takes him 0.05 seconds to charge and use his Iron Fist.

Power Man & Iron Fist #54

https://i.imgur.com/WOnwAf0.jpg

He is able to easily defeat a giant dragon.

Immortal Weapons #5

http://imgur.com/a/0EXnr

He is able to take down a helicarrier with a single blow.

New Avengers #59

http://imgur.com/a/BHP0F

The collateral damage from his Iron Fist is compared to a hydrogen bomb.

Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #20

http://imgur.com/a/76zEa

He is able to murder Zhu-Rong, a God of Fire and Universal Order in a single punch.

Iron Fist: ILW #11

https://i.imgur.com/5ckAEMV.jpg

Originally posted by Sharivan
Speaking of that.

Immortal Iron Fist #14

http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373441_The_Immortal_Iron_Fist_014-008.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373442_The_Immortal_Iron_Fist_014-009.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373443_The_Immortal_Iron_Fist_014-010.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/29373444_The_Immortal_Iron_Fist_014-011.jpg




I only brought those up because that's precisely what would happen if Iron Fist was intent on actually murdering them, and had no moral compulsions stopping him.

As seen here.

You are making an egregious claim based on the databooks, and are refusing to be reasoned with on this matter.

Citation needed that Daniel Rand was only absorbing the radiation, and that he wasn't also absorbing a brunt of the explosions.

This is more speculation that you have yet to support with evidence.



Already rebuked all three of these points.

Danny refuses the offer, and Khan doesn't dispel anything. It's shows his conflict, and his inherent refusal because of his honor within his inner monologue.

Danny summons his chi when he breaks out of Crimson Bands of Cyttorak. As we can see both his hands glowing when he does so. He then uses the Iron Fist again in order to destroy the portal.



Yes, that's the case.



I don't want to hear that from someone who refuses to acknowledge the inanity of the databooks, and is egregiously claiming that Daniel Rand is peak human even with his chi.



Which changes nothing?

Daniel Rand still beat Mr. X, and the only reason he was beaten there was because Iron Fist was outnumbered and caught off guard by a bunch of different guys afterwards.



No, it doesn't.

You didn't show it failing against Mr. X. You showed Daniel Rand being outnumbered, and surprised by a bunch of other people who proceed to take advantage of that and gang up on him.

That doesn't support your point at all.



*I'm just getting started.

Badabing
Reality Warper and Sharivan, this is your last chance to stop the nonsense. This place was peaceful until you both started derailing threads with your nonsense and reports. Stop now and keep posting freely, or I temp ban you both.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Badabing
Reality Warper and Sharivan, this is your last chance to stop the nonsense. This place was peaceful until you both started derailing threads with your nonsense and reports. Stop now and keep posting freely, or I temp ban you both.

Does it mean that I can address the thread while ignoring his claims ?

DarkSaint85
Basically, comment on the characters and feats, not on each other.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Basically, comment on the characters and feats, not on each other.

I'm fine with that. smile

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Basically, comment on the characters and feats, not on each other.
And if you absolutely positively cant do that:
http://i.imgur.com/q4vHrNv.jpg
No one's worth getting banned over.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Does it mean that I can address the thread while ignoring his claims ?


They're not claims. They're facts supported by evidence outside of fights, and inside of fights. Then again, you can't really tell the difference anyway. After all, you're fine with using baseless speculation.

RealityWarper
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111145037/3696648-2799285-4.jpg

That's impressive how many characters have nuke-level punches those days.

Sharivan
Originally posted by RealityWarper
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111145037/3696648-2799285-4.jpg

That's impressive how many characters have nuke-level punches those days.

You're using Deadpool who was already established to run on nonsense in the other thread. Whose showings over other characters have always been ridiculous.

He has hurt Thanos empowered by Death. So, by your own logic by using showings over other characters Deadpool would be a fully-fledged cosmic entity.

abhilegend
Midnighter still wins.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Midnighter still wins.

Midnighter still loses.

abhilegend
Well you're wrong as always.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Well you're wrong as always.

Not really, no.

You're as stubborn as usual though.

abhilegend
Yes, I'm right as always and you're wrong as always.

Iron Fist loses here. His history of losing to Shang Chi level MAs is pretty well documented.

Zack M
Originally posted by Sharivan
You're using Deadpool who was already established to run on nonsense in the other thread. Whose showings over other characters have always been ridiculous.

He has hurt Thanos empowered by Death. So, by your own logic by using showings over other characters Deadpool would be a fully-fledged cosmic entity.

laughing out loud

RealityWarper
I've already posted over 10 scans with 10 different characters hurting Iron Fist in different situations.

That's impressive how much Marvel characters can throw Nuke-level punches those days.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, I'm right as always and you're wrong as always.

No, you're wrong and I have been over why dozens of times.



Iron Fist wins here, as I have already demonstrated. The fights in comic books are so unreliable that using them without anything outside of them to back them up is straight up dishonest, and ignoring how ridiculous comic books are.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
I've already posted over 10 scans with 10 different characters hurting Iron Fist in different situations.

Note the above, and all the instances I provided that shows that those instances don't make any particular sense.



What's impressive is how comic books writers are incapable of any objectivity, and are willing to write anything no matter how ridiculous in order to get some money.

DarkSaint85
Wait so we're not allowed to use comic book fights to discuss comic book fights?

leonidas
laughing out loud well, not exactly....

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait so we're not allowed to use comic book fights to discuss comic book fights?

2016 KMC, The Age of Shari.

Sharivan
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait so we're not allowed to use comic book fights to discuss comic book fights?

So long as you back them up with feats outside of showings over other characters they should be usable.

Otherwise, you can grab any random scan and say a character is superhuman for fighting a character far more powerful than they are.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
2016 KMC, The Age of Shari.

http://i.imgur.com/3yQKzsx.jpg

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Sharivan
http://i.imgur.com/3yQKzsx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gNDcFKy.png https://i.imgur.com/mgL5ze7.png

Sharivan
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://i.imgur.com/gNDcFKy.png https://i.imgur.com/mgL5ze7.png

http://i.imgur.com/xToP0aG.jpg

StiltmanFTW
http://www.herosandwich.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FNF-IronFistFatCobra2.jpg

http://www.herosandwich.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FNF-IronFistFatCobra3.jpg

Sharivan
http://i.imgur.com/twNDnLx.jpg

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
No, you're wrong and I have been over why dozens of times.


Well, you have slammed dozens of times. That doesn't counts though.

It really doesn't matters what you think is unreliable or not.

You don't make rules here. Ask Bada or Pr to invalidate the fights and then come back.

Iron Fist loses. Easily.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
So long as you back them up with feats outside of showings over other characters they should be usable.

Otherwise, you can grab any random scan and say a character is superhuman for fighting a character far more powerful than they are.



http://i.imgur.com/3yQKzsx.jpg
Who died and made you mod here?

Your insistence to listen to your rules like a petulant child throwing a tantrum is getting annoying.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, you have slammed dozens of times. That doesn't counts though.

I have slammed and jammed with the best of them. You don't want to see my chaos dunk. Charles Barkley taught me many things.



You know what, for once you're sounding reasonable but here is the thing. That would be an empty "victory" (in the loosest sense since this isn't about winning). If I can't convince you myself, and instead rely on someone else to make a ruling? I will suffer for it as debater.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Who died and made you mod here?

It's not about modship. It's about how inconsistent showings over others can be. Come on now, and be honest. Have you never noted when Superman being beat up doesn't make sense? I know when I have debated for it not making sense.



They're not my rules. I am asking you for something that's more reliable than showings over other characters. That's it. You haven't provided me with them so I am not inclined to believe you. In turn I try to convince you of my side of the argument by providing just that.

We have different views on what's acceptable in debate.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
I have slammed and jammed with the best of them. You don't want to see my chaos dunk. Charles Barkley taught me many things.


Spamming is fun I guess.

Yes, this is about getting the last word for you.

Iron Fist loses. Get over it.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
It's not about modship. It's about how inconsistent showings over others can be. Come on now, and be honest. Have you never noted when Superman being beat up doesn't make sense? I know when I have debated for it not making sense.


It is about modship. Unless you change the rules of forum, nobody has to follow your rules.



Yes they are. This is called narcissism where only your word and rules count.

Nobody cares kid. Iron Fist loses.

Stop throwing tantrums and learn to accept different views than yours.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Spamming is fun I guess.

A shame I was hoping you were being reasonable, and that wasn't a typo.



No, it isn't. It's about discourse and discussion. This isn't what a debate is about. I made clear I want to convince but you seem set in your ways.



So you say but the only one here who really argued with me was DarkSaint. He has some good points regarding Doors. It could give Daniel Rand some problems.

However, I also noted that Daniel Rand's chi disrupts portals causing them to explode and that he can absorb energy. As well as the fact he can substitute his body with his spirit.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
A shame I was hoping you were being reasonable, and that wasn't a typo.



No, it isn't. It's about discourse and discussion. This isn't what a debate is about. I made clear I want to convince but you seem set in your ways.

Of course it is for you. You want last word over everything on everyone.

Are you OCD?

Midnighter beats the shit out of Rand with his bare hands.

No doors needed.

Get over it.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Of course it is for you. You want last word over everything on everyone.

Are you OCD?

Nope, I don't. The last word in something like "Well, you're a ****** and you're wrong so there" or "blah, blah, blah" and ad nauseam. It's not a meticulous explanation as to why someone is wrong.



No, Midnighter does not.

The Doors are needed as Iron Fist is the one who is faster, and hits harder.

No, you're just repeating yourself.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
Nope, I don't. The last word in something like "Well, you're a ****** and you're wrong so there" or "blah, blah, blah" and ad nauseam. It's not a meticulous explanation as to why someone is wrong.


Well, you're just craving last word here.


Nope. Midnighter wins. Stronger, faster and can easily calculate the easiest way to win.

Rand may win 1 or 2 out of ten times.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, you're just craving last word here.

This coming form you when you have provided nothing of substance?



Which you yet to prove with any showings outside of his fights with other characters. Which I am still waiting for.



Daniel Rand is going to win the majority here. It's the other way around.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
This coming form you when you have provided nothing of substance?


laughing out loud




Fights with characters is only thing that matters here.

You can wait or not. Not my concern. I don't have to prove it to you.

Nope, not even possible. Show me the fights with the characters which shows that.

I'll wait.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
laughing out loud

It's not funny it's the truth.



Why do you get to dictate what's usable or not? You're doing the same thing you're claiming I am doing.

Not only that but I imagine if someone said you couldn't use an instance of Superman surviving a black hole because it's not a fight? You would scream foul.



Yes, you do. If you want to prove your point. Otherwise, you're simply being stubborn and refusing to see reason.



As I already noted showings over other characters are inconsistent, and don't make a lick of sense half the time.



My watch has only just began in the case of waiting for you to provide anything reliable.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
It's not funny it's the truth.

Its funny and not truth at all.





Yes, essentially the same. As you can't be reasoned with, I'm turning your tactic on you. *** for Tat.



No I wouldn't. I never use that as a feat in a fight anyway.





Nope. Individual feats don't matter. They are too inconsistent and written by stupid writers who don't know science and physics.





Individual showings are even more inconsistent and never makes sense. They are invalid.





My watch is already counting for you to provide any reliable fight from Rand.

I'm waiting kid.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Its funny and not truth at all.

Argumentum ad nauseam.



No, you're the one who started this by saying that fights are only things that matter even as early as that Silver Surfer over a week ago.

I never said fights were invalid. I said they needed to be supported by things happening outside of them in order to determine whether they make sense.



Yes, you would and you have. Just take for example Superman's femto-second feat.



Then why rely on the fights either? If they are so incompetent, and can't understand anything. They can't judge what would happen in a fight either.



No, they are not. They are not subject to the popularity, and favoritism that may happen in showings over other characters.



I already did pages ago when Danny defeated Davos without his chi, and while Davos had it along with the accumulated memories of the dozens of Iron Fists in the Anomaly Gem.



Oh, and also when Iron Fist defeated Black Tarantula in that other thread.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sharivan
Argumentum ad nauseam.

Yes, your whole shtick.





And they do.



No, they don't. They don't need anything else to be valid.

Individual showings need to be validated by the fights though. Thanos hasn't destroyed a planet. Yet he still smacks Surfer down. Doomsday hasn't destroyed even a city. Yet he is stronger than Superman.

Only fights matter.





Because he used it in a fight.





Because they are only gauge of power.





They absolutely are. The more popular character always gets more feats.





And what has Davos ever done which makes him so impressive?





Favoritism. Invalid showing.

Sharivan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, your whole shtick.

Nope, it's yours.



And they don't.



Yes, we do.

Otherwise we gets things such as Batman defeating Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, and the Flash at the same freaking time.

That is in no way justifiable.



No, they don't. It's the other way around. As the former is the only thing that can justify the latter.



He has plenty of individual showings such as surviving black holes, and resisting reality warping turbulences.

You can definitely find something similar if you try hard enough.

There's also the case of the case-by-case basis. If a character has no outside showings. You have no choice but to go by fights, and determine what is consistent. Otherwise, you go by individual showings.



Note the above, and what I already said before. Not to mention it depends on the incarnation of Doomsday. Which varies.

If that was the case Squirrel Girl is more powerful than Thanos. When we know that's a lie, and she is a joke character.



Nope, not the instance I was talking about with the Flash. The other one that wasn't in a fight that Carver brought up when he noted your horseshit.



No, they are not and you are trying to ignore this fact. Along with the fact fights do not always make sense.




No, the more popular they are the more writers will write stupid shit in order to try to make them seem relevant among gods.

Whether it makes sense or not.



Davos has full mastery of his own chi, the knowledge of countless dead Iron Fists, enough chi to destroy large buildings etc.



This coming from the guy who is trying to play off Batman defeating Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and the Flash at the same time as not favoritism?

DarkSaint85
Squirrel Girl ISmore powerful. Not sure why you don't think so.

carver9
Dang, Sharivan is gone. I liked the guy.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by carver9
Dang, Sharivan is gone. I liked the guy.

Reasons ?

carver9
People reporting him I guess. I hope that isn't the case when we do have the ignore function. We are all men here, I'm sure we can brush off people debating style, so he probably didnt get reported, I hope.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by carver9
Dang, Sharivan is gone. I liked the guy.

He'll be back in 7 days, you silly.

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