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God Doom:

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/gaq8b77xzqz8zdikim4c.png

vs.

Beyonder Doom:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/146053/3264906-0.jpg

Who wins?

Depends which version of Beyonder I guess.

If pre-retcon, Beyonder Doom has the whole 'thousands of times powerful than everything power so probably wins.

If post-retcon, then at that point Doom only had the power of the child-unit/CCU Beyonder, which God Doom is explicitly thousands of times more powerful than.

So depends on that I guess.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
If post-retcon, then at that point Doom only had the power of the child-unit/CCU Beyonder, which God Doom is explicitly thousands of times more powerful than.

Which is Hickman's BS of course. Even post Retcon, many of Beyonder's multiversal feats were still valid (the most notorious was erasing Death from all creation and the LT and all other Cosmic Powers were there unable to stop him or reverse it). Post Retcon Beyonder also had control over TIME as well as his other reality warping powers (Hickman's Beyonders have no control over it). Spiderman had post retcon Beyonder's power for a few seconds yet he remade ALL creation. Molecule Man and Post Retcon Beyonder's fight was TRANSmultiversal.

Beyonder Doom stomps.

Originally posted by zopzop

Spiderman had post retcon Beyonder's power for a few seconds

yet he remade ALL creation.
Actually, it was one nanosecond.

But, even more astonishing,
is that Wolverine and Doom separately also remade all creation,
within that same nanosecond.

In fact, all 3 of them, lived entire separate lives, within that billionth of a second.

That was of course non canon.

The book and story is 100% canon. ... ties into the original SW harmoniously.

We've been through this already. Marvel titles with an "all ages" rating means nothing to canonicity.

I've researched this thoroughly. Let me know.

No, it wasn't. Spider-Man gave Hulk the pep talk when he was bracing the mountain for example when it was Reed in the actual story. There are a lot of inconsistencies between it and the actual story.

And it's an all ages book. Which automatically makes it non canon.

Cool, that was one detail that was warped, but that's it. It's minute in the grand scheme of the story.
Everything else is nigh-verbatim to the original story.

Anywho, I supposed the mini arc, "Last Planet Standing," is also auto non-canon?

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29433213_1.jpg

Oh ahbi, you never fail. I have several more in wait, but I wanna see you wiggle around this first.

Homie, if you got no official Marvel sources to support your claim, and, I know you don't,
don't come at me again with this fallacy. Actually, since I know, don't come at me again.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it wasn't. Spider-Man gave Hulk the pep talk when he was bracing the mountain for example when it was Reed in the actual story. There are a lot of inconsistencies between it and the actual story.

Well that was bound to happen. The original story is 30 something years old. Those were either retcons or writer screwups. The story is canon as far as I'm aware.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool, that was one detail that was warped, but that's it. It's minute in the grand scheme of the story.
Everything else is nigh-verbatim to the original story.

Other parts were inconsistent as well. It wasn't "warped".





Of course. Its from MC2, a different reality altogether.



When I mean non canon, it means they occur in a different reality and are not canon to 616 characters.



Oh you poor fool.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Other parts were inconsistent as well. It wasn't "warped".
What "other" parts?
Originally posted by abhilegend

Of course. Its from MC2, a different reality altogether.
The wiggle.
Originally posted by abhilegend

When I mean non canon, it means they occur in a different reality and are not canon to 616 characters.
Interesting fallacy.

So, now you have you try and find (actually make up some more bullshit)
that mysterious "realty" where the Spidey SW mini took place.

Dude, I mean ... facepalm ...

wait, mc2 feats are canon to 616....?

Originally posted by Mr Master
What "other" parts?


Hulk and Spidey fighting Enchantress. Enchantress playing with Spider-Man for a whole issue.

Etc.

The ****? MC2 is canon to 616 now?

Dude, shut the **** up if you can't understand such a simple concept.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Hulk and Spidey fighting Enchantress.

Enchantress playing with Spider-Man for a whole issue.
I see you don't understand the concept behind the mini.

First, it's not a re-print, it's a follow up. So yea, it's not going to be identical.
The point of the mini is to present details we never got to see in the original portrayals.
These "details" are obviously made up by Tobin (writer) so, he can add anything he wants.

Oh, and Enchantress wasn't playing with Spidey,
that was Galactus right before the heroes challenged him, while they were observing him.
Originally posted by abhilegend

The ****? MC2 is canon to 616 now?
.. It's a "wiggle" cause you made it seem like "all ages" rated books never happened.

Now the spin (wiggle) is, that "all ages" books only apply to alternate realities.

Which is complete bull shit
Originally posted by abhilegend

Dude, shut the **** up if you can't understand such a simple concept.
Nah, you shut the **** up with your lieS!

And ... Let me know when you have that proof,
which means,
you'll never let me know since the proof is non-existent.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I see you don't understand the concept behind the mini.

First, it's not a re-print, it's a follow up. So yea, it's not going to be identical.


That's not what it is. It's a reinterpretation in a different reality.

Hulk lifting the mountain is one of the most iconic scenes of Secret Wars and this book completely changed that. There is no way to reconcile it.



And as this is an all ages comic, it's not happening in 616 universe.

And no, he can't just add whatever he want.

Enchantress was causing that too.



Where did you even get that you fool?

Non canon doesn't means never happened.

That's how marvel advertised the comic.



Hahaha, oh you poor deluded fool.

Keep paddling the same bullshit.

The proof is right there on cover.

MC2 is an alternate future around 15 years from present day. It branches from 616.

Originally posted by abhilegend

That's not what it is. It's a reinterpretation in a different reality.

Hulk lifting the mountain is one of the most iconic scenes of Secret Wars and this book completely changed that.
Hulk was portrayed doing the exact same thing in the Spidey mini, as he did in the original SW.
The only difference is that Tobin gave Spidey Reed's dialogue in the mountain scene.

Still waiting on that non-existent proof which tells us the number or name of this "different reality."
Originally posted by abhilegend

And as this is an all ages comic, it's not happening in 616 universe.
And as this is an all ages rated story, Spiderman & SW, so it is happening in the 616 universe.
Originally posted by abhilegend

And no, he can't just add whatever he want.
Yea he can, since it's from a point of reference we never saw in the original.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Enchantress was causing that too.
I already told you it was Galactus's presence which was warping reality when the heroes approached him:

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29451010_G1.jpg

I hate when you step to me without knowing what the **** you're debating about.
Originally posted by abhilegend

That's how marvel advertised the comic.
You're the only one advertising that bull shit son.
Originally posted by abhilegend


The proof is right there on cover.
facepalm ... and bullshit!

In the Spiderman/SW mini, many scenes directly from the original SW were portrayed and expanded on,
but this stands out as a depiction which stamps the book as 100% canon to the original SW:

While moving through "time" with the imaginary Enchantress due to Galactus' presence warping reality,
she points out to Spidey a momentous occasion in his history, namely, finding the Black Suit,
which ONLY took place in the original SW, and which ONLY produced a 616 limited run called Web of Spiderman:


*** (Spiderman and SW mini) ***

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29451011_Sp1.jpg

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29451012_Sp2.jpg


*** (original Secret Wars #8) ***

http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/29451036_Sp3.jpg

http://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/29451013_Sp4.jpg

... The illustration and even the dialogue is verbatim. ... stoned

Now come claim that there are/were two Web of Spiderman. (no room for wiggle here punk)

But never mind, and troll on, as you most definitely will return with exactly that..

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hulk was portrayed doing the exact same thing in the Spidey mini, as he did in the original SW.
The only difference is that Tobin gave Spidey Reed's dialogue in the mountain scene.

And that in itself is proof enough that its not canon to 616 universe.



This is an all ages comic and Paul Tobin himself informed that All Ages comics are not bound by code of continuity.

http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/29451176_Masterlol.jpg

https://blog.tfaw.com/2010/12/06/paul-tobin-tells-all-about-spider-girl-marvel-adventures/



Even the writer denies that.


And not bound by continuity.



This is all unnecessary at this point. I would like to burst your bubble once more but who cares

The comic is out of continuity. Cry more.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And that in itself is proof enough that its not canon to 616 universe.
Non-Stop bull shit in the house.
Originally posted by abhilegend

This is an all ages comic and Paul Tobin himself informed that
All Ages comics are not bound by code of continuity.
So no evidence of any kind relating to the Spiderman/SW mini.

No proof of any kind from Marvel comics.

Beyond that:
Originally posted by Digi

KMC Vs. FORUM RULES

An obscure interview given by someone involved in a story arc is not proof.

Neither is a random post by a supposed writer on a message board, blogs, tweets, etc.

There have been too many of these so called interviews which go against what's shown on panel.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9388817#post9388817


So take your wannabe 'reference' and shove it. Phuk I care what some ghost text on the net states.

... not Marvel comics, or official Marvel sources? .. phuck off.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Even the writer denies that.
.. yah, some ambiguous unofficial text by who knows who.
Originally posted by abhilegend

This is all unnecessary at this point. I would like to burst your bubble once more but who cares

The comic is out of continuity. Cry more.
So, still shitting in your pants and diving in, every chance you get.

Anywho, the Spiderman and Secret Wars mini is 100% canon to the original Secret Wars

which took place and is canon to 616.

When you have that official Marvel source saying otherwise, return.

but, I know you'll come back with more gobbledygook.

That's who/what you are and we all know it.

Are we talking about Marvel Age/Adventures? Those are not canon to 616. Darwyn Cooke Said it was a seperate continuity years ago. However, that was then

Originally posted by -K-M-
Are we talking about Marvel Age/Adventures? Those are not canon to 616. Darwyn Cooke Said it was a seperate continuity years ago. However, that was then

still, i don't think i've ever seen that changed. far as i've ever seen all ages stories are not in continuity unless explicitly stated otherwise. i read a bit of this series which was stated to be in continuity (i didn't like it) but even after being stated as canon, there is still doubt:

http://www.cbr.com/sdcc-marvel-announces-all-ages-in-continuity-spidey/

opening the door to allow for one all ages book to be canon would seem to be opening the door to ALL all ages books, and clearly most are well outside of that. without some form of explicitly stated exception, can't see that sw story arc being considered canon--certainly not by forum standards, but i don't think by marvel standards either. /shrug

maybe galan or opr know more.

Some of that Marvel Adventures/all ages stuff was definitely not in continuity as there were clear differences to the mainstream titles. Other things like the events of Pet Avengers seemed to kind of fit into the gaps and were actually mentioned in the official handbooks alongside regular material, so it was a mixed bag. Being Marvel I doubt the editors were even keeping track of it all.

fair enough i guess. but it would seem to me that the default assumption should be non-canon, unless otherwise explicitly stated. referenced in canon books or official handbooks could work i guess, just that as you know, handbooks can be...problematic at times. where 2 things happen though, and one is shown in 616 and the other in all ages, they can't BOTH be right obviously, and the 616 material clearly takes precedence.

allowing all ages to act as canon material (sometimes) really seems to open a can of worms imo....

Yeah, fully agree. I always assume they are out of continuity (most were obviously so), with a few exceptions that didn't contradict and were referenced in canon material - which was extremely rare.

As for the fight, it comes down to what others have said about the whole pre/post-retcon business. Beyonder Doom's mastery of time could tip it in his favor.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Non-Stop bull shit in the house.

So no evidence of any kind relating to the Spiderman/SW mini.

No proof of any kind from Marvel comics.

Beyond that:



So take your wannabe 'reference' and shove it. Phuk I care what some ghost text on the net states.


Stop crying. That's the writer of that series calling All Ages line out of continuity.



Is that so? Provide me a source which shows this comic is canon to 616 universe.



Yeah, you've lost it. Go home.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Are we talking about Marvel Age/Adventures? Those are not canon to 616. Darwyn Cooke Said it was a seperate continuity years ago. However, that was then They're discussing a 4-issue mini released in 2010 called: Spider-Man and the Secret Wars. It was written as sort of a tie-in to the original Secret Wars. Anyway, the implication to me is that it was intended to be canon.

Aside from what has been mentioned, here is the opening page of issue #3:
http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463920_smatsw_03_002.jpg

Those scenes were pulled directly from SW #5:
http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463910_Secret_Wars_005-013.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463915_Secret_Wars_005-014.jpg


And here is the opening page of issue #4:
http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463922_Spider-Man__the_Secret_Wars_4_002.jpg

A scene pulled directly from SW #10:
http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463918_Secret_Wars_010-025.jpg


Doesn't seem like the writers would have used specific scenes from SW itself, if the mini wasn't intended to canonically tie-into it. I understand where abhi is coming from, though.

Yeah, it was homaging the original comic. But it's definitely out of continuity.

It's canon.

Good fight, Doom wins.

Originally posted by Mindset
It's canon.

Good fight, Doom wins. Glad you think so...

https://s9.postimg.org/u9ydbdsyn/Spider_Man_the_Secret_Wars_4_012.jpg


vin

Originally posted by Galan007
They're discussing a 4-issue mini released in 2010 called: Spider-Man and the Secret Wars. It was written as sort of a tie-in to the original Secret Wars. Anyway, the implication to me is that it was intended to be canon.

Aside from what has been mentioned, here is the opening page of issue #3:
http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463920_smatsw_03_002.jpg

Those scenes were pulled directly from SW #5:
http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463910_Secret_Wars_005-013.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463915_Secret_Wars_005-014.jpg


And here is the opening page of issue #4:
http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463922_Spider-Man__the_Secret_Wars_4_002.jpg

A scene pulled directly from SW #10:
http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/29463918_Secret_Wars_010-025.jpg


Doesn't seem like the writers would have used specific scenes from SW itself, if the mini wasn't intended to canonically tie-into it. I understand where abhi is coming from, though.

i get there are definite overlaps, but minor differences are still....differences. i mean how many times has the watcher in what ifs talked about how some universes are extremely like our own, with only the most minor of changes, while others are vastly different? also, i was under the impression these all ages stories took place like...years before the 616 stories?

not sure if all the 'all ages' stuff is meant to take place in the same universe though. i thought it was.

anyway, i guess it's ambiguous at the very least. still can't imagine any feats pulled from the series being considered canon in the forum. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Glad you think so...




vin He was momentarily affected by Beyonder's stupidity when he had his powers.

anyway, that should pretty much obliterate any claims that the series was canon.

Originally posted by leonidas
i get there are definite overlaps, but minor differences are still....differences. i mean how many times has the watcher in what ifs talked about how some universes are extremely like our own, with only the most minor of changes, while others are vastly different? also, i was under the impression these all ages stories took place like...years before the 616 stories?

not sure if all the 'all ages' stuff is meant to take place in the same universe though. i thought it was.

anyway, i guess it's ambiguous at the very least. still can't imagine any feats pulled from the series being considered canon in the forum. /shrug Yeah. I mean, my take has always been that this specific mini is canon(just seemed like that was the intent.)

However, I also understand why some believe it is not.

fair enough. i've checked it out and looked around and can't find a definitive answer anywhere, so yeah. i guess it's open to interpretation as relates to that specific series.

Yeah I don't believe that's canon. Other books in that line paid homages to existing stories and I have yet to see anything where it states it's canon

Even the current all ages series is based on the cartoon universe
http://marvel.com/news/comics/23160/share_your_universe_with_all-ages_comics

I don't think anyone in their right mind(set) actually believes that Doom is smarter than Reed.

Originally posted by -K-M-

Are we talking about Marvel Age/Adventures?

Those are not canon to 616.

Darwyn Cooke Said it was a seperate continuity years ago. However, that was then
... and they still are non-canon.

The "Spiderman & Secret Wars" mini has nothing to do with Marvel Age, or Marvel Adventures.

Originally posted by Galan007

They're discussing a 4-issue mini released in 2010 called: Spider-Man and the Secret Wars. It was written as sort of a tie-in to the original Secret Wars. Anyway, the implication to me is that it was intended to be canon.

Aside from what has been mentioned, here is the opening page of issue #3:

Doesn't seem like the writers would have used specific scenes from SW itself, if the mini wasn't intended to canonically tie-into it. I understand where abhi is coming from, though.
... phuckin common sense at last.

... and then there's the verbatim recall of Spideman finding the Black Suit in the Spidey/SW mini,
it was illustrated/dialogued identically as in the original series. I posted it on page 1.

That, as we both know, manifested the limited run titled: "Web of Spiderman."

That incident happened only in the original SW.

So just with that detail brother G, the truth with proof is sound.

Originally posted by leonidas

i mean how many times has the watcher in what ifs

talked about how some universes are extremely like our own
How many times did the Watcher, or anyone for that matter
pop up in the Spidey mini to highlight how we were indulging an alternate reality story?

(silence) .. and, exactly old friend.

Marvel readers are always given an indication they are dealing with an alternate universe.

It's the age of twitter can someone just ask Paul Tobin?

https://twitter.com/PaulTobin

Sorry guys, but I have yet to see any evidence to suggest it is canon. The All-Ages books played homages to other 616 stories and books, but hey I'm open if it is canon.

Originally posted by -K-M-

It's the age of twitter can someone just ask Paul Tobin?
Mods declared that twitter/interviews and such are not permissible.
Originally posted by -K-M-

Sorry guys, but I have yet to see any evidence to suggest it is canon.
I'm sorry too brah, but I have yet to see any evidence to suggest it is not canon.
Originally posted by -K-M-

The All-Ages books played homages to other 616 stories and books, but hey I'm open if it is canon.
What other books are you referring to?

I'd like to see identical illustrations and dialogue referencing the original 616 template, like in the Spidey mini.

Originally posted by Mr Master
How many times did the Watcher, or anyone for that matter
pop up in the Spidey mini to highlight how we were indulging an alternate reality story?

(silence) .. and, exactly old friend.

Marvel readers are always given an indication they are dealing with an alternate universe.

we are given an indication--all ages is on the cover. and we know all ages books are NOT canon. the one time they officially tied one to continuity they announced it. any other all ages book canon that you know of? you've already acknowledged there are differences in the retelling vs the real thing. so, between the differences (even if minor) and what we know about other all ages books, not sure why you're so certain it is canon. you claim there is no proof that it ISN'T canon. there is equally no proof it is. similarity of story isn't enough imo. it could simply be another retelling that is mostly correct. you also say there is nothing indicating an alt universe, but what about this famous book:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48945/903630-gladiatorvssilversurfer.jpg

is there something specific in that book, or others like it, that specifically tell us its another universe? because that fight past for canon for a long whole....i don't know the answer to that question tbh....

i'll freely admit i don't care one way or the other. definitive claims from either side seem sort of ridiculous though. imo the any feats from story should be left out of debates purely because it's so ambiguous. /shrug

Originally posted by Mr Master
Mods declared that twitter/interviews and such are not permissible.

I'm sorry too brah, but I have yet to see any evidence to suggest it is not canon.

What other books are you referring to?

I'd like to see identical illustrations and dialogue referencing the original 616 template, like in the Spidey mini.

Oh never-mind then. Still would be curious to find out what he says.

So there lies the issue. Honestly, I'm open to it being canon. However, from prior experience All-Ages comics tend not to be. Could this be the exception? Maybe. but haven't seen anything clearly to say it is. *shrugs* So this becomes very murky.

I'll have to go back, but Fantastic Four had a few retellings.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Oh never-mind then. Still would be curious to find out what he says.

So there lies the issue. Honestly, I'm open to it being canon. However, from prior experience All-Ages comics tend not to be. Could this be the exception? Maybe. but haven't seen anything clearly to say it is. *shrugs* So this becomes very murky.

I'll have to go back, but Fantastic Four had a few retellings.

pretty much my thoughts as well.

you'd think it would at least be mentioned somewhere in a handbook somewhere, or in a for-sure canon comic if it really was intended to be canon material.

Originally posted by krisblaze
I don't think anyone in their right mind(set) actually believes that Doom is smarter than Reed. But he is.

Doom is Reed's inspiration, his only reason for being.

He wants to impress his superior.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Oh never-mind then. Still would be curious to find out what he says.

So there lies the issue. Honestly, I'm open to it being canon. However, from prior experience All-Ages comics tend not to be. Could this be the exception? Maybe. but haven't seen anything clearly to say it is. *shrugs* So this becomes very murky.

I'll have to go back, but Fantastic Four had a few retellings.


The writer himself said that the all ages comics are non canon.