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I realize this has definitely been done before, but I wanna see how many people agree with my newfound opinion of Valkorion.

Sabers
Force
All Out

Takes place in Valkoiron's Throne Room.

Valkorion.

Dunno why you bothered with a sabers portion though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Valkorion.

Dunno why you bothered with a sabers portion though. Neither am I, guess it's just a habit at this point.

Sidious.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sidious.

Who knows?

Logically, Valkorion. Feat wise, toss-up, or maybe Sids 'cause Force storms. Holistic representations - Sidious if we take of those "best sith" quotes at face-value, but some argue Valkorion isn't Sith, so we're essentially back to square one again. That aside, both are evenly seen as a galaxy level threats, so they're pretty much even there, too.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Who knows?

Logically, Valkorion. Feat wise, toss-up, or maybe Sids 'cause Force storms. Holistic representations - Sidious if we take of those "best sith" quotes at face-value, but some argue Valkorion isn't Sith, so we're essentially back to square one again. That aside, both are evenly seen as a galaxy level threats, so they're pretty much even there, too. That's the whole reason I did this, to see what people thought pretty much. I don't see Valk as Sith, he himself says he isn't Sith.

Personally I think Valkorion, as both of them are pretty equal in terms of their Force abilities. Valkorion however has better freedom as a spirit, if his body dies he can continue fighting and using his full power (or close to it); as evidenced in "Visions in the Dark". Sidious, based on what I've seen, can't use much of his power as a spirit; if any at all. So he's borderline helpless. If Sidious' physical body dies then he's pretty much done, but if Valk's body dies he can keep going. But I wanted to see what other people thought.

Valkorion in everything but sabers.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sidious.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sidious.

Currently I give a slight edge to Palpatine, but season 2 of KOTFE might change that.

Leaning with Sheev slightly

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Currently I give a slight edge to Palpatine, but season 2 of KOTFE might change that. Even despite Valkorion's abilities as a spirit?

What are you referring to in particular?

His ability to utterly dominate the Outlander and flow-walk as a spirit. Valkorion is obviously not greatly weakened as a spirit. So logically, if his physical body dies he can keep fighting, because his powers aren't restricted as a ghost. Sidious can become a spirit, but he's useless as one. Valkorion essentially has infinite chances unless Sidious can banish him to Chaos.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Valkorion in everything but sabers.

"Note on "Force Storms": The Emperor can't create Force Storms at will. They are in fact a phenomenon that occurs rarely, when the minds of two great Force users meet and struggle with each other at a distance." - Tom Veitch

Source

mmm

Lucky that other canon sources say otherwise.

Good interview though. Pretty interesting that the idea of the original villain was basically Kylo Ren and Lucas nixed the idea. I was always under the impression that Veitch intended to bring the real Vader back and not just the costume.

Originally posted by ares834
"Note on "Force Storms": The Emperor can't create Force Storms at will. They are in fact a phenomenon that occurs rarely, when the minds of two great Force users meet and struggle with each other at a distance." - Tom Veitch

Source

mmm

Lucky that other canon sources say otherwise.

Good interview though. Pretty interesting that the idea of the original villain was basically Kylo Ren and Lucas nixed the idea. I was always under the impression that Veitch intended to bring the real Vader back and not just the costume. I was under the impression that it took time and concentration to create one of those Force Storms. He can just create them on a whim?

I think it just takes a bit of effort to actually control them?

Can he create them? Yes. Can he controll them? With very intense concentration.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I think it just takes a bit of effort to actually control them? He didn't even achieve full control though, only partial control. So it must have required a lot more effort than the comic implied.

****, if Sheev can't control them no one can

He had full control by DE, lmfao. He was able to summon several ones in different star systems without losing control. The only evidence that people who claim he had lacked control have are quotes from him prior to RotJ, and him apparently losing control in DE II when it was actually Luke and Leia's Force Harmony that caused him to lose control.

rightio

Valky vs Sidious in lightning only would be interesting.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He had full control by DE, lmfao. He was able to summon several ones in different star systems without losing control. The only evidence that people who claim he had lacked control have are quotes from him prior to RotJ, and him apparently losing control in DE II when it was actually Luke and Leia's Force Harmony that caused him to lose control. Wasn't aware he had full control. That makes it more impressive for sure.

Originally posted by Sinious
Valky vs Sidious in lightning only would be interesting. That would be a hell of a show.

Very bright.

^^^Recommend bringing sunglasses to that fight.

Should be interesting to see the cancer that ensues on CV because of me.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Should be interesting to see the cancer that ensues on CV because of me. I'm stealing this quote for a debate I'm in right now.

Credit me, Ant and Skillz.

Kidding.

I mean, I could credit you guys if you wanted.

Kulvax, I guess it should be formally established I have no beef with you as it stands, and like you as an ally (although we have clear differences with the Avellone shit), and hopefully you feel sort of similar feelings. mmm

I already posted that in the thread you wanted to steal it for.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I already posted that in the thread you wanted to steal it for. I just saw, lol

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kulvax, I guess it should be formally established I have no beef with you as it stands, and like you as an ally (although we have clear differences with the Avellone shit), and hopefully you feel sort of similar feelings. mmm

Certainly, I'm two years done with all that.

"a Yoda tier master in Revan Reborn"

It's true. estahuh

He doesn't even have to be Yoda tier for Valkorion to be DE Sidious level.

But if he was Yoda tier, that would put Valkorion significantly above even DE Sidious.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He doesn't even have to be Yoda tier for Valkorion to be DE Sidious level. One should hope so, because the idea that Revan is Yoda tier is laughable.

Originally posted by Trocity
But if he was Yoda tier, that would put Valkorion significantly above even DE Sidious.

Now you're getting it.

Revan as of the novel is in Yoda's tier, as of SoR Revan is a hair below Yoda and ROTS Sidious; but only because their saber skills are >> Revan's.

Oh dear.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Revan as of the novel is in Yoda's tier, as of SoR Revan is a hair below Yoda and ROTS Sidious; but only because their saber skills are >> Revan's.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/fuHdUls1uGRtS/200.gif

Laughable that Reborn Revan is Yoda tier? The only thing laughable is putting Yoda on that level.

And the most retarded post of the thread goes to our friend here. The TOR fanboys never fail to disappoint.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Should be interesting to see the cancer that ensues on CV because of me.

I like that post.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Laughable that Reborn Revan is Yoda tier? The only thing laughable is putting Yoda on that level.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/zqBHhM4eh1iLe/200.gif

To address the OP, Palpatine has superior TK (being able to crack the foundations of a 3x2km building with a thought and being far more powerful than TK powerhouses Vader + Starkiller); superior Force lightning (one shotting Anakin, Marek, Vader etc. overloading Yoda's tutanimis); superior telepathy (mentally dominating the minds of DE Luke & Vader with ease, erasing the memories of millions on Coruscant); logically superior drainage powers (being more powerful than Nihilus, more powerful than Plagueis who mused himself capable of all known powers of the ancient Sith) and superior destructive powers, read world killing, SSD busting Force storms. Valkorion has better feats in alchemy and immortality, but Sheev takes home the lion's share of combat applicable powers. He wins as usual.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
To address the OP, Palpatine has superior TK (being able to crack the foundations of a 3x2km building with a thought and being far more powerful than TK powerhouses Vader + Starkiller); superior Force lightning (one shotting Anakin, Marek, Vader etc. overloading Yoda's tutanimis); superior telepathy (mentally dominating the minds of DE Luke & Vader with ease, erasing the memories of millions on Coruscant); logically superior drainage powers (being more powerful than Nihilus, more powerful than Plagueis who mused himself capable of all known powers of the ancient Sith) and superior destructive powers, read world killing, SSD busting Force storms. Valkorion has better feats in alchemy and immortality, but Sheev takes home the lion's share of combat applicable powers. He wins as usual.

Hmm...

How is Valk's immortality better? Aren't they just the same thing? Only Sidious had to keep hopping bodies due to them wasting away by how powerful he was?

I mean both of them went through different bodies, but the only thing I notice that's any different is that Valk was in his bodies longer, but this was just due to him being a reclusive shut-in as Vitiate and Valk was just like...an empty shell until needed and then becoming a hijacking body spirit in the Outlander or whatever.

When did he one-shot Anakin?

Regardless, being far superior to Revan in TK > a non-feat and supposedly being better than Vader without ever showing so, considering that was far from Vitiates best incarnation.

And Valkorion is solidly better than Sidious in lightning, being infinitely greater than Nyriss, overloading Revan's tutaminis, curbstomping the TOR-team and his lightshow against Arcann.

Lol @ Sidious > Valkorion in TP. Full cancer.

Terrible ABC argument for drain. Valkorion has lightyears better feats. Sidious has never even shown a combat variant for drain afaik.

Valkorion's demonstrated destructive feats are superior.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hmm...

How is Valk's immortality better? Aren't they just the same thing? Only Sidious had to keep hopping bodies due to them wasting away by how powerful he was?

I mean both of them went through different bodies, but the only thing I notice that's any different is that Valk was in his bodies longer, but this was just due to him being a reclusive shut-in as Vitiate and Valk was just like...an empty shell until needed and then becoming a hijacking body spirit in the Outlander or whatever.

Valkorion didn't need any help from sith spirits to survive death and return, despite how weakened he was. He's also got multiple-bodies and planetary-possession over him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When did he one-shot Anakin?

Lol pretty sure he's referring to the illusion.

In a wet dream of mine yeah, I'd like to think it legit.

@Neph, how is Sidious "supposedly" better than Vader lol? His superiority is firmly established. And out of curiosity on what grounds does Valkoriate >> Revan in TK? And more specifically, which incarnation?

That entirely depends on how great you think Nyriss is or how literally you interpret hyperbole, suffice to say I disagree with you there. However Yoda just so happens to be (much) better than all of those names.

We've been on that merrigoround already, even LeG was left flailing.

Neither has Valkorion, so what's your point?

I'm sure, I mean he blew up T3 amrite?

Sidious was legitimately dismantled by Luke and Leia's combined effort to Sever his force connection, his demonstrably lackluster Force defences mean that even child Vitiate has a decent shot at taking him by cutting off his Force connection.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Valkorion didn't need any help from sith spirits to survive death and return, despite how weakened he was. He's also got multiple-bodies and planetary-possession over him.

When were Sith spirits involved with Palps return?

Plaps also had multiple bodies? They were clones sure, but then Palps also shown the ability to hijack living bodies too.

@Wolf, I believe that's been retconned. It's stated in the CSWE that he escape through "sheer force of will."

But yeah I sort of agree, on paper Valkorion appears better but in reality that's not necessarily the case.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Neph, how is Sidious "supposedly" better than Vader lol? His superiority is firmly established. And out of curiosity on what grounds does Valkoriate >> Revan in TK? And more specifically, which incarnation?

That entirely depends on how great you think Nyriss is or how literally you interpret hyperbole, suffice to say I disagree with you there. However Yoda just so happens to be (much) better than all of those names.

We've been on that merrigoround already, even LeG was left flailing.

Neither has Valkorion, so what's your point?

I'm sure, I mean he blew up T3 amrite?

He's never actually demonstrated superior TK than him. Nor, I believe, has he been indicated to be the superior in that area. And based on Revan being unable to more than budge an Imperial Guard that was merely drawing upon Vitiate's power.

Nyriss' lightning was able to instantly disintegrate despite having to break through a force barrier. That's a very high level of lightning. Obviously "infinitely" is hyperbolic, but the clear intent is that his lightning was vastly superior. And naw, Revan's comparable to Yoda in tutaminis. Not that Sidious actually overloaded Yoda's tutaminis, it was a draw.

"Even Legend" isn't exactly a high mark.

That Valkorion's drain feats are better and you have no argument. It's not like Valkorion isn't also superior to Nihilus and Plagueis. And he lived at the height of the Sith Empire before knowledge of Nihilus' technique was lost and improved upon that variant with his rituals.

Sure did. Though, I suppose it's nothing on what Sidious did to that coffee table when Leia humiliated him.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
When were Sith spirits involved with Palps return?

Plaps also had multiple bodies? They were clones sure, but then Palps also shown the ability to hijack living bodies too.

It's stated that he returned with the help of Sith spirits.

Valkorion possessed multiple bodies at once.

Sidious being unable to deal a fatal blow to Ashoka add's more fire to the flame - or in this case - resistance to the voltage. If Mace Windu makes a reappearance, I legitimatly argue that Nyriss is better than Uncle Sids

Failing to kill someone despite them being defenseless seems like something Maul would do, not Sidious. mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's stated that he returned with the help of Sith spirits.

Valkorion possessed multiple bodies at once.

Except the Encyclopedia says he just did it through sheer will.

Hmm...when? I seem to recall him only being in one body at a time.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Sidious being unable to deal a fatal blow to Ashoka add's more fire to the flame - or in this case - resistance to the voltage. If Mace Windu makes a reappearance, I legitimatly argue that Nyriss is better than Uncle Sids

Why are you trying to interject Canon into a Legends thread here? Two completely different continuities with different gauges of power.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except the Encyclopedia says he just did it through sheer will.

Hmm...when? I seem to recall him only being in one body at a time.

That isn't incompatible with the other quote.

His Voices and Ziost. He was Vitiate and Valkorion simultaneously, after all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's never actually demonstrated superior TK than him. Nor, I believe, has he been indicated to be the superior in that area. And based on Revan being unable to more than budge an Imperial Guard that was merely drawing upon Vitiate's power.

Nyriss' lightning was able to instantly disintegrate despite having to break through a force barrier. That's a very high level of lightning. Obviously "infinitely" is hyperbolic, but the clear intent is that his lightning was vastly superior. And naw, Revan's comparable to Yoda in tutaminis. Not that Sidious actually overloaded Yoda's tutaminis, it was a draw.

"Even Legend" isn't exactly a high mark.

That Valkorion's drain feats are better and you have no argument. It's not like Valkorion isn't also superior to Nihilus and Plagueis. And he lived at the height of the Sith Empire before knowledge of Nihilus' technique was lost and improved upon that variant with his rituals.

Sure did. Though, I suppose it's nothing on what Sidious did to that coffee table when Leia humiliated him. In LotS his TK attacks are more potent than Vader's, no naw. And multiple sources confirm he's more powerful than him, much more powerful. This is elementary shit lmao. I can't help but doubt that Imperial Guard logic though when Revan put Vitiate on his ass in person moments later, its not as if he was expecting that level of resistance.

It's really not, but Nyriss never disintegrated anyone anyway. And Revan has never come close to absorbing the lightning of a Sidious-tier opponent, so wrong again. But yeah though Sidious failed to overwhelm Yoda he did overload his tutanimis, hence the explosion.

It is for the TOR brigade.

Except that's not what you said, you said Sidious has never employed a combat-variant of drain, well neither has Valkorion. Anyway I realised I typed superior drain in my OP, I meant equal, in the sense that we've every reason to believe the Ziost feat is something Palpy could pull off given his superiority to the likes of Nihilus & Plagueis.

Was that before and after he left her smoking and helpless on the floor?

Originally posted by Nephthys
That isn't incompatible with the other quote.

His Voices and Ziost. He was Vitiate and Valkorion simultaneously, after all.

Except didn't Senya say that Valk was at times distant and what not? This seems to say that he wasn't entirely in both bodies at the same time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That isn't incompatible with the other quote.http://i.imgur.com/rweNSvP.png

Where's Temp? Beni's pro-Sidious arguments kinda giving me cancer ngl.

Ur not worthy, deal.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Where's Temp? Beni's pro-Sidious arguments kinda giving me cancer ngl.

Valkorion and vitiate were going on at the same time.

Not really. During the centuries he was building up Zakuul, the Sith Emperor was silent, some even thought he was dead. During the events of the main game where the Sith Emperor returned to perform his ritual, Valkorion was distant and almost never spoke according to Senya. Both hosts are there, but he only actively controls one at time--the other is essentially on autopilot.

Genuinely love how the Sheev brigade on CV have no counter.

Lol, the "Sheev brigade".