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We have Sidious, Yoda, Anakin and Mace Windu confirmed to be in tier 9. Dooku, Maul and Obi-Wan fit into tier 8.

So who else is (potentially) eligible for tier 9 status as a combatant? We're measuring all facets of dueling (skill, experience, Force augmentation and reserves, etc.), but not offensive/defensive Force powers.

My picks would be Luke Skywalker, Revan, Reborn Krayt, Exar Kun & Darth Plagueis.

Tenebrous probably fits in the highest notch of tier 8, as would Vader and the wanked Ancient Sith duelists. The TOR protags as well.

You're pretty much spot on, although I still stand by Dooku being tier 9 :/

I would, too, but Gillard's confirmed (apparently) that he doesn't rank him there.

Vader, Dooku and Mace are all more or less equals IMO
Dooku > Mace
Mace > Vader
Vader > Dooku
That's how I see it anyway, so they should all be on tier 8 or all on tier 9.

The ancients are all stated to be below Kun anyway so Nadd, Ragnos and co are tier 8 at most

Vader and Caedus

Caedus sucks

I forgot about Caedus. He's between tier 9 and 8. Not sure where he is precisely as of yet.

I know Caedus is supposed to be more powerful than Vader, but I still see a fight between those two being Vader's game, So low-mid tier 8 for me

I'm not too sure about Caedus being more skilled than Vader, either, but his speed and agility would give him the edge there.

He would've stomped Katarn in seconds while exhausted, was the 2nd greatest swordsmen in the galaxy after Luke/Jaina admited inferiority in Dark Journey, was stated to be greater in the force than Jaina and Mara. Not sure what Vader has done that places him as being more skilled

Not too sure about the others, but Caedus being able to trounce Katarn in a few seconds whilst injured is actually very good. Yeah, he's tier 9.

Vitiate/Valkorion, or is this strictly saber skill?

He doesn't have anything by way of dueling to be ranked.

Starkiller??

Originally posted by SunRazer
He doesn't have anything by way of dueling to be ranked. So this is strictly saber duels. OK, **** Vitiate then.

Yeah Starkiller is on here if we aren't going completely by technical skill

@Carthage - Wasn't Vader matching him whilst holding back? I doubt Vader's tier 9 to begin with, so SK's definitely tier 8.

The candidates for tier 9 should be easier to rank than tier 8.

My ranking would be:

1. Luke Skywalker

2.Darth Sidious/Yoda (DE Sidious might be a bit higher)

3. Mace Windu

4. Darth Plagueis/Darth Caedus

I'm not ranking Anakin, since it depends on his state of mind. He could be anywhere from 2-3 here to somewhere in upper tier 8, based solely on his mindset.

Luke and Sheev are prolly on another tier altogether tbh

Isn't it stated as a preface that Gillard refuses to rank tier 10's because "nobody's perfect" or something? That makes sense, especially considering low showings and how random lightsaber duels are/can be.

Disregarding that, Luke in his prime, holistically, might be a tier 10. DE Sidious might belong there, too, but RotS Sidious was one of the tier 9 benchmarks. There's no way he's tier 10 if Yoda's tier 9.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not too sure about the others, but Caedus being able to trounce Katarn in a few seconds whilst injured is actually very good. Yeah, he's tier 9.

Already disproved.


You can stop repeating broken memes Nova as well as pretending Gillard knows what he's talking about. Caedus is not even Dooku level and Nick 'lightsaber forms do not exist' Gillard, is not a canon.

Stop reaching and I won't have to shit on you, like I did on CV.

Vader, Caedus and Dooku, tbh.

I mean, the Gillard email isn't even 100% legit as when I asked Ant to give it to me, he didn't respond.

For **** sake.

It wouldn't matter if Gillard said his own character Cin Drallig was a ten - I think he has somewhere. His opinions on the matter aren't canon. I can't believe no one wants to argue this.

zig ziggidy to the rescue

Mace level and up sans Dooku if Ant can provide the email.

Zzzz...

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Already disproved.

You can stop repeating broken memes Nova as well as pretending Gillard knows what he's talking about. Caedus is not even Dooku level and Nick 'lightsaber forms do not exist' Gillard, is not a canon.

Stop reaching and I won't have to shit on you, like I did on CV.

I suppose you shit on everyone you talk to, since they don't bother to indulge you.

Also, I explicitly said in this thread (or the other) that I'm not suggesting that Gillard's rankings are canon. I'm merely asking how people would build on his rankings.

It's kind of hard to do given how broke the logic of his system is tbh.

L

Nova, why rank Mace and not Anakin? The tier 9 Mace we see in the movies was in the deepest state of Vaapad he could ever be in while under normal circumstances he's perceived as an equal to Dooku, evn at the time Gillard gave the quote. Anakin, under normal circumstances, is there as well, his "destroying Dooku mode/tier 9 duelist" was a one-time thing when releasing everything he'd been holding back for years. Gillard's quoting in general seems controversial, claiming AotC Anakin is a level 5??

Level 5 would have to be utter fodder, given the supposed massive differences in ability between tiers.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Level 5 would have to be utter fodder, given the supposed massive differences in ability between tiers.

Yeah absolutely but if that's not correct how can we be sure that everything else he says is?

Nothing he says is correct. I can't believe this is still a discussion, **** Gillard he shouldn't be used for an argument on KMC ever again

He said AotC Anakin was a 7, not a 5.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Nothing he says is correct. I can't believe this is still a discussion, **** Gillard he shouldn't be used for an argument on KMC ever again This obsession is getting old tbh yeah.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I suppose you shit on everyone you talk to, since they don't bother to indulge you. Also, I explicitly said in this thread (or the other) that I'm not suggesting that Gillard's rankings are canon. I'm merely asking how people would build on his rankings.

Sunrazer,

When creating a circle-jerk thread with groupthink ambitions, don't expect that all is fine and dandy. You have presented some of your delusions in front of everyone, and if you're to carry on, I rather expect you to be in a position to explain them - yes that means answering criticisms too. Now I understand the desire to duck opponents outside your weight class, but it would be rather refreshing if you just admitted there are certain arguments you don't want to make, when certain imposing figures are looming over them. It would also be nice if you admitted I have qualities you have yet to understand, much less apply them yourself. The first is the ability to apply context with usage of quotes contained in literature - for this reason Caedus is not stomping a Katarn-level combatant within seconds, and theres is nothing to suggest he can do so - it's rather the opposite. The next is to understand what is Canon and what is not, why it is important to only use canon information in discussions.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He said AotC Anakin was a 7, not a 5.

But then he said Anakin moved up four levels towards RotS...

Tier nine duelists would be Luke, Yoda, Palpatine, Anakin, Windu, and Plagueis.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Tier nine duelists would be Luke, Yoda, Palpatine, Anakin, Windu, and Plagueis.

Then how are Windu and Anakin only statlemating a level 8 duelist in the form of Dooku?

Skywalker destroyed Dooku. Windu and Dooku never fought long enough for a conclusive match.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker destroyed Dooku. Windu and Dooku never fought long enough for a conclusive match.

Yeah when he released all his anger all at once, the RotS novel made that pretty clear, that's something he isn't going to do twice. Windu was by accolades an equal to Dooku, not to mention that Windu's Vaapad allowed him to compete with Palpatine (and become a tier 9 duelist) because not only his inner darkness was beyond anything it had been before but also because he was facing the most powerfil Sith ever, pretty much the perfect circumstances for him.

Skywalker was dominating Dooku even before his "Zonakin" state.

The accolades putting Windu and Dooku on the same level are generally all prior to the start of the Clone Wars (with Yoda's musing as an exception). Windu destroyed over 100,000 B1 battle droids even prior to the Outer Rim Sieges, let alone other models. I operate under the assumption he grew in power. Besides, he's stated as tier nine, and Dooku's state as tier eight, so I have no clue why you're trying to dispute this when it's already set in stone for this thread.

Windu is only Sidious level (9) in the unique situation of RotS. Normally he isn't near that point, as evidenced by, like, every other fight he's ever been in.

I highly doubt a real Tier 9 needs all their prowess to beat Ventress.

People actually take that shit quote seriously? Windu clearly wasn't giving it his all against her in the comic, kek.

Info that gives in-depth look is good and all, but when it contradicts what factually happen, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Irrelevant. There's also his fights against Bulq, Depa, Dooku, Talzin and Maul with which to establish that he sucks.

Nice goal post move. Instead of admitting your initial argument was shit, you create another I couldn't care less about.

It wasn't shit, I just have no particular interest in defending it. It's merely a single instance in the complete trend of Windu being a very solidly Tier 8 duelist. Maul isn't gonna call Yoda + back up a real fight like he did Windu and Aayallaya, he'd cack his pants. Sidious personally said Talzin is a worse duelist than Dooku and pooped on her head easily, while Mace struggled with a weaker version. Mace is no better a duelist than Dooku is.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker was dominating Dooku even before his "Zonakin" state.

Dominating? Let's take a look at the Revenge of the Sith novelization, shall we? Obi-Wan & Anakin found it necessary to sucker Dooku in a trap which costed him a valuable amount of energy to then both, at the same time, fight him. Anakin in this scenario had every advantage possible, he faced an opponent who already losted a great deal of energy, had Obi-Wan to help defeat Dooku and this same Obi-Wan would cover any mistakes he made. Yet Dooku could still land numerous hits on both Obi-Wan and Anakin, even to the point that the former could take out Obi-Wan while Anakin could any watch helplessly. The only thing Anakin put against that was that he could pressure a Dooku who had direct tactic, had already lost a good amount of energy and was also focusing on Obi-Wan, and even then Dooku could change his tactics to the point that he could let the fight shift in his favor again. Does that seem to you the makings of a tier 9 fighter like Yoda, who dominated the Count without any favorable circumstances or help?



You assume that Windu would make a huge jump from tier 8 to 9 during the Clone Wars? Well it's quite obvious that the Windu that fought Sidious was performing under a unique set of circumstances perfect for his fighting style. Gillard never made a distinction between a normal circumstances Mace and the one we saw in RotS while the RotS novel, which was edited by George himself, does. That this Windu, under very specific circumstances, is a tier 9 duelist is kind of undisputed since we did see him take on Sidous but under normal circumstances? No, everything points in the other direction.



Because Gillard's quote is made under very specific circumstances, he's only looking at the movies without acknowledging the circumstances, which other sources actually do, of the fights and the character's level of performance. This context is very different from the context used on the boards where 'we' prefer to rank characters who are under the influence of the same circumstances.

If this thread is only made to blindly follow Gillard's context and neglect any of the above mentioned circumstances then you're absolutely right and I will take back everything I said, no problem. However if this thread also leaves room for a critical look at Gillard's system then I stand by everything I've said, it's easy to pick a quote, rip it from it's context and make a conlcusion which is the complete opposite from the general accepted opinion and call it a day.

Note that I don't say Gillard's system is 'wrong' and everything he says is abolsute trash, no, his way of ranking characters is right form his perspective (under a very specific context) but looking at how characters are normally evaluated and ranked on this board (or CV) then I think I can safely conclude that his way isn't the best way to compare characters.

tl;dr. Try to cut down your arguments to a few sentences.

Assuming you're disputing something:



That's, like, the ultimate display of lightsaber domination. mmm Skywalker performed better than Yoda against Dooku, easily.

---

In regards to Windu, while it's possible Gillard's ranking is referring specifically to his Vaapad state, that's not really the implication behind the quote.

Plus Lucas also says you have to be either Yoda or Windu to compete with Palpatine, which also reinforces the point, unless you think Lucas is factoring Vaapad in there too.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
People actually take that shit quote seriously?
Only a select few at this point, tbh.

No-one cares about the novel. It took Anakin a considerable amount of time to reach that point. In the movie he's losing right up till the end.

Yes Neph, you've voiced your concern about the novel a thousand times.

No one gave a **** every time. No difference for the thousandth and one.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
tl;dr. Try to cut down your arguments to a few sentences.

Assuming you're disputing something:



That's, like, the ultimate display of lightsaber domination. mmm Skywalker performed better than Yoda against Dooku, easily.

---

In regards to Windu, while it's possible Gillard's ranking is referring specifically to his Vaapad state, that's not really the implication behind the quote.

Plus Lucas also says you have to be either Yoda or Windu to compete with Palpatine, which also reinforces the point, unless you think Lucas is factoring Vaapad in there too.

Pretty convenient for you

Again, put a quote out of context and you can make it look however you want. At that point, Dooku only just discovered Anakin's true fighting style and lost a good amount of energy because of the Jedi's trap. Funny enough, right after your quote Dooku changes his tactics and takes out both Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time, and the only thing that kept Dooku from defeating Anakin was the fact that he needed to ensure Obi-Wan was defeated. So now, add everything up and it's not even close, Dooku was running away from Yoda after the latter launched his full offensive while in the RotS duel he could still take the advantage over the duo when employing the right tactics.

How so? Gillard bases his tiering on what we see from these characters in the movie, that's his base of information and in that movie we only see Windu in these specific circumstances.

Since George actually edited the RotS novel I think he actually does to be honest.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes Neph, you've voiced your concern about the novel a thousand times.

No one gave a **** every time. No difference for the thousandth and one.

Lol, you're trying to use Gillard as a source yet you're ignoring the actual fight choreography that he worked on that shows Dooku blocking Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand, kicking Anakin aside while taking out Obi-Wan and then having the upper hand in a saber lock with him.

Maybe when you're trying to use someone as a source, you should pay attention to his actual work instead of a book he had no involvement in and that's massively different from his version. Just a tip, buddy.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Again, put a quote out of context and you can make it look however you want.
Yawn.


Dooku figured it out prior to the assault. That's enough for any normal combat situation.


Dooku was using more power to handle Skywalker's attacks than he did throwing Kenobi against a wall. He was fine.


By seizing advantage of the droid's saving them. If the droids weren't there, he was dead.


Again, after escaping Skywalker's deadly assault by using the droids. He didn't defeat Skywalker on fair grounds. He got the droids to distract him and then landed a kick. That's not indication of superiority or parity.


What?


I recall an interview with Gillard in which he rejects the notion he was considering Vaapad for the fights.

http://movieweb.com/star-wars-episode-iii-plot-spoilers/

---

BTW, I love how you're bashing me for circumstances, but your argument rests on droids intervening and a desperate kick from Dooku. Pathetic.

To repeat, if not for the droids, Dooku was dead. On neutral grounds, there wouldn't be droids. In other words, Dooku would be dead in a brutal fashion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, you're trying to use Gillard as a source yet you're ignoring the actual fight choreography that he worked on that shows Dooku blocking Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand, kicking Anakin aside while taking out Obi-Wan and then having the upper hand in a saber lock with him.

Maybe when you're trying to use someone as a source, you should pay attention to his actual work instead of a book he had no involvement in and that's massively different from his version. Just a tip, buddy.
I don't care for the actual choreography, which is limited in a thousand and one ways. I care for the intent and actual descriptions of what happened.

If you like choreography so much, check out Jensaarai's videos. I'm sure you'll find them great.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


In regards to Windu, while it's possible Gillard's ranking is referring specifically to his Vaapad state, that's not really the implication behind the quote.




This is a summary of an online chat before the release of RotS and you can find this statement there:

"Mace (Sam) does not use "vaapad" (?) in Ep3, he does what Nick tells him to do for the scene."

Of course, that statement had to be overwritten with the acceptance of the lightsaber forms into canon. Still: Gillard hasn't any claim to expertise regarding those forms, since he probably doesn't even know how they work. So citing him on anything but stunts in the movies is pretty much arbitrary and pointless, not only because of his lack of expertise on the topic - but also because his opinion isn't canon. Honestly, I'd sooner claim EvanNova's tier listing is the more comprehensive piece.

You and Neph should get a room.

And you should take a leaf from ILS, and go back to debating loony toons on Comicvine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't care for the actual choreography, which is limited in a thousand and one ways. I care for the intent and actual descriptions of what happened.

If you like choreography so much, check out Jensaarai's videos. I'm sure you'll find them great.

Not sure you quite understand but, like, Gillard was the fight choreographer. That was his job, for the movies. If he's saying something, that's the context in which he is speaking. That's his sole official capacity. So ignoring that aspect, pretty much just because you want to despite it being more canon than the garbage you're pedaling, is kind of ****ing retarded. If his intent was for Anakin to dominate the fight he's an appalling incompetent because he failed in every respect to show that. You don't think the intent behind the things I mentioned were to show that it was a close fight? Because that's obviously what it is. In the movie. The movie that Gillard worked on. The only thing that you should be paying attention to in respect to Nick Gillard.

Like it or not, the movies are the most important aspects of the PT. They're also the most relevant to Gillard by a nautical mile. Relying on intent and descriptions that have nothing to do with him, while trying to use him in support of those things is ****ing stupid.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes Neph, you've voiced your concern about the novel a thousand times.

No one gave a **** every time. No difference for the thousandth and one.
*thousandth and two

Also:

>"movie version of fight doesn't show Anakin's superiority"
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=2m22s

Right...

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the movie he's losing right up till the end.



For someone who loves the book so much, you sure have trouble reading.

But I thought the book wasn't canon?

Neph, your double-standards are as blatant as ever.

Um, come again?

Are you not a firm believer in Zonakin, a novel-based concept?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in your claims? mmm

Well, of course you don't, but I assume everyone else does.

The contents and choreography of the fight between the book and the movie are at odds, but Anakin winning by drawing on his rage isn't. It's clearly what happens in the movie as well as the book. Theres no contradiction.

I'm still waiting on proof you actually got the email, Ant...

And nah, Skywalker wasn't dominating Dooku, not on an even playing field at least. He had Obi-Wan save him twice, and had to resort to tiring out Dooku whilst simultaneously luring him into a false sense of security, so he can catch him off-guard later.

This is of course not mentiong all the other sources showing the Count and Skywalker are relative equals, until Anakin gets enraged. Holistic portrayel obviously favours Skywalker and he is the Count's superior... but unless he's enraged "Zone-akin" mode, he's not dominating.

Oh yeah, I'm just lying to everyone. I posted a scan of it in the VS section.

By "resort to tiring out Dooku," I assume you mean "completely dominate Dooku to where he's about to lose consciousness." If so, then yeah.

It's no coincidence that the main opponents to the Anakin Brigade are people like Wollf or Ziggy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The contents and choreography of the fight between the book and the movie are at odds, but Anakin winning by drawing on his rage isn't. It's clearly what happens in the movie as well as the book. Theres no contradiction.
The movie shows him getting angry, not being in a pristine moment of clarity.

All aboard the Nephthys train. Destination: double-standard island.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yCxZYvXDv40/V8NEHZGMj_I/AAAAAAAAB5k/ysuO0eddg44LBDDF2jQj-I_yP-B_WKVywCL0B/w1597-h500-no/gillard.PNG

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Oh yeah, I'm just lying to everyone. I posted a scan of it in the VS section.

By "resort to tiring out Dooku," I assume you mean "completely dominate Dooku to where he's about to lose consciousness." If so, then yeah.

It's no coincidence that the main opponents to the Anakin Brigade are people like Wollf or Ziggy.

I actually wanna wank Skywalker, but I also wanna wank Dooku... So I just let the two go hand-in-hand

Also, he legitimately says in that email he thinks it isn't about how well they fight, lmao. So it has no significance here.

And I love how you cherry pick parts of the novel that suit you, while ignoring the context that leads up to them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


He figured it out while fighting off Anakin and Obi-Wan, I would hardly call that normal.



He only needed a fraction of his power to push Kenobi while the fact that he needed to regain his energy implies that he lost a little more energy because of the trap.



Yes the droids distracted Skywalker, fair enough but Obi-Wan still dismantled the droids before Dooku was making his move against Skywalker.



Dooku kicked Anakin after the droids were dismantled but in the movie Dooku also takes out Anakin and there de droids only targeted Obi-Wan so it doesn't really matter anyway.



So Gillard didn't consider Vaapad in that fight, what does it matter? Windu's fighting style didn't change, it was the mental aspect of Vaapad which allowed him to keep up with Sidious. That mental aspect has little to do with the fighting choreography which Gillard was responsible for. The working of Vaapad is explained in the RotS novel (which George personally approved and edited) and in that source it's clearly expressed that the circumstances involving the fight allowed Windu to sink deep in Vaapad.



Did I do something wrong? I see no reason for you to suddenly start insulting me, it isn't going to strengthen your arguments nor is it going to affect my argumentation.



Yes, because Obi-Wan was there to help Anakin.

Originally posted by MythLord
I actually wanna wank Skywalker, but I also wanna wank Dooku... So I just let the two go hand-in-hand

Also, he legitimately says in that email he thinks it isn't about how well they fight, lmao. So it has no significance here.

And I love how you cherry pick parts of the novel that suit you, while ignoring the context that leads up to them.
Cool.

That's within the levels themselves.

Yawn. I'm well aware of what transpired in the fight.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Cool.

That's within the levels themselves.

Yawn. I'm well aware of what transpired in the fight.

Yeh, so wank Dooku to being Mace+ and have Anakin wreck Mace

But in the email he sent you, he says it isn't just how well they fight, it's how much they've learned. So I take it as being technical skill, innate talent and adroitness with the blade, experience etc.

Good to know mmm.

Back.

Your argument doesn't really make a lot of sense, sorry. I'm not insulting you, by the way. Just your reasoning in this particular discussion.

First, let's address the form trick. Yes, there's no disputing that Dooku was initially unprepared for Skywalker and Kenobi changing their stances.



However, as shown in the text, while Dooku wasn't prepared for the start, he was expecting Skywalker's Djem So with the attack relevant to this debate. Prior in battle, he even changed his tactics to specifically handle against it. Your argument revolves around the notion that Dooku's kick against Skywalker was indication of them being peers. This theory is laughable because it ignores both the context of how Dooku did this, and what happened directly before and thereafter.



So, Skywalker was explicitly dominating Dooku in a one-versus-one combat. There's no disputing that. When Kenobi returned to the fight, Dooku recognized that there was absolutely no chance of a fair victory, so he ordered his droids to open fire. He honestly had no chance against Skywalker either though, as made clear by the fact all he could do is barely defend himself against Anakin's fury. The droids spared him from Skywalker's assault, presumably allowing him to recover. Just as the final droid was destroyed, Dooku attacked Skywalker, suggesting it wasn't a fair attack. Also, not that the text said that Anain "whirled," suggesting he wasn't even facing Dooku when the attack happened. Plus, Dooku wouldn't have been able to even launch said attack unless he cheated (and even he claims he cheated, so that's not arguable). Besides, a kick is not indication of lightsaber parity anyway.

In other words, when they were put in direct combat, Skywalker dominated the scene. Dooku fared better against Yoda than he did against Skywalker, based on their respective performances in the adult novelization. Against Yoda's assault, Dooku was never teetering on unconsciousness. Hell, against Skywalker, he wasn't even able to strike back. That's how overwhelming Anakin's attack was. Sure, Dooku got a cheap shot, but that's exactly what it was: a cheap shot. Skywalker's a tier nine duelist. Dooku's a tier eight duelist. Their fight shows as much.

In regards to Windu, I have no interest arguing personal opinion on what Gillard or Lucas means, or your interpretation of Vaapad.

Originally posted by MythLord
But in the email he sent you, he says it isn't just how well they fight, it's how much they've learned. So I take it as being technical skill, innate talent and adroitness with the blade, experience etc.
So, stuff relevant to lightsaber combat anyway?

Just accept Anakin and Windu > Dooku and move on already, kek.

Dooku's salty sagging balls must be tasty if Wollf can't accept that the status quo has changed. The Dooku > Mace days are long gone.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Sunrazer,

When creating a circle-jerk thread with groupthink ambitions, don't expect that all is fine and dandy. You have presented some of your delusions in front of everyone, and if you're to carry on, I rather expect you to be in a position to explain them - yes that means answering criticisms too. Now I understand the desire to duck opponents outside your weight class, but it would be rather refreshing if you just admitted there are certain arguments you don't want to make, when certain imposing figures are looming over them. It would also be nice if you admitted I have qualities you have yet to understand, much less apply them yourself. The first is the ability to apply context with usage of quotes contained in literature - for this reason Caedus is not stomping a Katarn-level combatant within seconds, and theres is nothing to suggest he can do so - it's rather the opposite. The next is to understand what is Canon and what is not, why it is important to only use canon information in discussions.

*Yawn*

Can we have a number count on the amount of people who read Ziggy's rants?

@Ant
-1?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo


Just accept Anakin and Windu > Dooku and move on already, kek.

Nevah! Well, I've accepted Anakin's his better long ago.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Back.

Your argument doesn't really make a lot of sense, sorry. I'm not insulting you, by the way. Just your reasoning in this particular discussion.

Okay, I still find it unnecessary to, even indirectly, insult me or my argumentation or anything. It's isn't going to provide anything usefull to the discussion so I see no reason why to do it anyway.



He indeed changed his tactics by using Djem So's lack of mobility in order to leap away and gather his energy again, something he didn't have the time or space to do before. However instead of leaping away after he succesfully unbalanced Skywalker, Obi-Wan was there to keep him busy until Anakin recovered from it. So no, even though Dooku's tactic actually worked to some degree, Obi-Wan's interference stopped Dooku from executing the rest of it, thereby making it useless. The point still stands that Anakin was attacking a Dooku who had lost a noticeably amount of energy without having the opportunity to recover form it.

My argument resolves around the fact that Dooku could still land hits on Anakin, despite that he had to come up with a tactic in the midst of battle, was facing a secondary opponent in the form of Obi-Wan and was supporting a form disadvantage which was in turn amplified by Kenobi's presence. Even if you believe that Dooku could only land a kick on Anakin because he latter was still distracted by the droids, other sources like the movie or the junior novelization have supported the idea that even without the help of his droids, Dooku could stun Anakin long enough to take out Obi-Wan at the same time.



Skywalker was pushing Dooku back under very favorable circumstances, not to mention that the Revenge of the Sith novel points out that Makashi's vulnerability against Djem So was the reason Dooku couldn't confront Anakin head on and had to rely on tactics like kicking him. If we take a look at other sources (Junior novel, Movie itself, Dark Disciple,...) we see that Anakin only was relatively equal to Dooku until he began actively tapping into his rage.



The only thing that confirmed Anakin's supposed domination is the RotS novel, and even then it puts forward quit a bit of circumstances in Anakin's favor. All the other sources (Junior novel, Movie) have them as equals while even the more recent sources like Dark Disciple support this idea rather then Anakin absolutely dominating Dooku. Regarding Yoda's fight with Dooku, once Yoda actually launched his full offensive Dooku could only parry and defend, he never tried to change his tactics or even land any kicks on the former. So again no, a tier 9 duelist isn't stunned by an almost exhausted Dooku or seen as his relative equal since the gap between tier 8 and 9 is huge.



You mean you're going to neglect all the evidence that I put forward and blindly follow Gillard's system? You can do that if you really want it. Gillard was only responsible for the stunts, he only needed to factor in how the characters where going to perform, not how they achieved that status or anything else in that area, so that's how his tiering system workes. Don't get me wrong, I want to wank Anakin all the way to Walhalla, he's been my favorite character since I first saw the movies, but I'm not just blindly going to follow someone's ranking when that person completely neglects the circumstances involved.

BTW, when are you going to upload the Caedus RT?

Yeah? Don't care. Stupid arguments deserve to be addressed as stupid. This isn't ComicVine.



http://media.giphy.com/media/l41m6U61XBBLnRhNS/giphy.gif


"The point still stands that Anakin was attacking a Dooku who had lost a noticeably amount of energy without having the opportunity to recover form it. "
This isn't true. The text states Dooku called upon the Force following his engagement with the duo and prior to temporarily incapacitating Obi-Wan Kenobi.



So, he did have time to replenish himself, especially considering how later in the text when he also summons the Force back into himself, the "weight of his years dropped away."

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Obi-Wan's interference stopped Dooku from executing the rest of it, thereby making it useless."


The entire maneuver was just him kicking Skywalker and then jumping away to safety. There wasn't a lightsaber attack follow up.

Kenobi's presence prevented the latter Dooku from leaping away, sure, but it wasn't like Skywalker was going to be bested anyway.

Ultimately, landing two kicks across the duration of a fight isn't indication of parity. The fact a tier eight did that to a tier nine doesn't put the latter in question.

TPM Obi-Wan Kenobi is only a tier six or seven, and yet he was able to land a solid hit against Darth Maul (who's tier eight) before being bested.

Hell, Opress landed a physical blow against Palpatine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg&t=2m19s

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Blatant lies. Dooku was able to launch an offensive against Yoda, but Yoda flew away before he could. With Skywalker, he couldn't even attempt to.





And while Dooku was parrying Yoda's assaults and "holding strong," he was in full retreat against Anakin and barely able to stay conscious.

Don't you see the difference?

Your bias against the facts makes me concerned that you plan on making a Skywalker respect thread.

I don't think you could live up to the task appropriately.

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Actually, that only further supports my point.

If they're dueling as equals that early on, that Skywalker following the Outer Rim Sieges will definitely be more powerful.

Note it's said that Skywalker grew "vastly in power" between season six and the third film.


Yeah, I don't care what a random fan has to say when Nick Gillard is saying something else, sorry.

There's no indication Vaapad provided Windu with an "amp," but rather it allowed himself to fully display the peak of his capabilities.

Said peak was tier nine-worthy and capable of besting Palpatine. This isn't up for dispute.

Windu even has a handful of accolades like these: http://www.tradingcarddb.com/Images/Cards/Non-Sport/89943/89943-6388294Fr.jpg.

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And that will probably be my final post here, since I'm getting bored discussing this with you.

I'm not sure if the Yoda comparisons are very apt; there Dooku was being dominated in a different manner (speed), so the description's going to be different. And I still get the feeling that Yoda wasn't going in for the kill; we know he didn't want to as of Dark Rendevous, so why would he as of AotC?

That being said, I think Dooku's inferiority to Anakin was pretty legitimate for a few reasons (and you guys were analyzing this in depth so you may have already gone over these):

1. Dooku was literally struggling to remain conscious and getting metaphorically aged decades by Anakin's blows, even before Obi Wan was taken out. Yes, I know that there's this "form disadvantage" allegation, but this extends far beyond that. It's not like Anakin's muscles play any role in this; Grievous wasn't a problem to Dooku at all; it's his raw power in the Force. And I don't think a juyo using Anakin would've been any less able to batter down Dooku in this particular capacity, for example. The description doesn't involve technique interactions, and it's unlikely that there's some special hip rotation from djem so that makes his Force powers more palpable or something. Dooku had a form disadvantage, but it wasn't why he lost.

2. Anakin was already matching Dooku almost evenly during the early-mid Clone Wars, and this was before he grew massively more powerful through the series, and then massively more powerful between its end and RotS.

3. Anakin has been stated multiple times to rival Yoda in power, and in many contexts it seems more a statement of actualized than potential ability. At that level of power advantage, I doubt that Dooku's technical edge, which isn't necessarily huge, is really enough. The Force is a lot more important.

4. IIRC Anakin wasn't just not-peak-performance early in the duel; he was consciously holding back.

5. Dooku's one legitimate hit was when he kicked Anakin away and choked Obi Wan. Before he was deflecting their attacks but when they got serious he was losing badly, so that hardly indicates parity on his part. But that's still one shot - a kick. That hardly compares to barely being able to hold onto his saber for the rest of the time. Anakin was dominating for most of the fight and then got knocked back once, that hardly counts as a win for Dooku.

6. It still isn't clear why we should think that post-failed-dun-moch Anakin was some freak outlier beyond anything he could ever do again. He wasn't being facilitated by some extraordinary moment like others have been; all he did was to stop consciously holding back. I guess you could say that he hated Dooku especially...maybe?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Yeah? Don't care. Stupid arguments deserve to be addressed as stupid. This isn't CV


Really? You're a good debater but you ain't God so stop pretending you are Ant.



He gathered the Force to throw Kenobi aside, not replenish his energy. Later on he specifically summons the Force to gather his strength again.



First of all, my statement was to counter what you previously said, that Dooku changed his tactics against Anakin's Djem So and even then it had no effect. That's why I explained that Dooku couldn't fully execute his "counter Djem So" plan because of Kenobi. I never said that it was game changing, only that it was noticeable.

There is a difference between random kicks and what Dooku did to Anakin, the degree of injury it causes. Obi-Wan's kick hardly did anything against Maul while Dooku's attack litteraly toke out Anakin for a very respectable amount of time. The movie makes it actually pretty clear how Anakin lies there helpless and could only watch his best friend get thrown around and possibly killed. Did Dooku that to Yoda? I don't think so.



Dooku tried to launch an offfensive which Yoda prevented, hardly any difference. Yet despite that Dooku was barely able to stay conscious, he was still doing effectively doing damage to the duo? Seems strange, to my knowledge Dooku couldn't do that against Yoda.



Again? Really Ant, why always attack people? Does it make you feel better?



I'm not just saying that, the RotS novel is. Do you even read my comments? I never denied that Windu could take on the Emperor, we saw him do that, I said that he couldn't replicate that showing against anyone else besides the Emperor and that's backed up by the RotS novel's description of Vaapad.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm not sure if the Yoda comparisons are very apt; there Dooku was being dominated in a different manner (speed), so the description's going to be different. And I still get the feeling that Yoda wasn't going in for the kill; we know he didn't want to as of Dark Rendevous, so why would he as of AotC?



You're right but it depends on which source you use. The RotS novelization blantly says that Dooku can't face Anakin head on because of Makashi's weakness against Djem So so in that case it actually is. Other sources like the movie itself, junior novelization, Dark Disciple (and other Clone Wars sources) never make the form advantage as big but they also don't support the Adult novelization idea that Anakin utterly dominated Dooku.



Correct again but we also see Dooku and Anakin fight as equals in Dark Disciple which takes place between Season 6 and RotS, in the midst of Anakin's power growth. I think it's very acceptable that Anakin surpassed Dooku in RotS, everything in the Clone Wars points to that but he isn't on Yoda/Sidious level or capable of straight up dominating the Count.



There definitely is some debating value since sources mainly claim his "power" rivales/surpasses that of Yoda. This "power" can have mutlipe meanings so it's kind of in the open.



He was holding back all of his rage, like all Jedi do.



Looking only at the Revenge of the Sith novelization, yes absolutely true however Dooku's kick wasn't just some random move lilke we've seen countless times during TCW, no it was strong enough to litteraly take Anakin out and have him practically defeated for a shot amount of time (I call Anakin being helpless and only able to watch how his best friend gets thrown around and possibly killed as temporarely defeated).



He was releasing all his anger he's been holding back for years, that's something he can't do twice. And that's only looking at the novelization, in the movie Anakin just becomes more angry and disarms the Count, that hardly means he could do it without any effort.

Those are already in, as stated:
- Yoda,
- Palpatine,
- Mace Windu,
- Anakin Skywalker.

Candidates:
- Darth Nyriss,
- Revan,
- Darth Malgus,
- Outlander (possibly),
- Darth Plagueis,
- Jacen Solo,
- Darth Krayt (possibly).

Kyle being outdueled is a good feat for Caedus?

Interesting. I'll make sure to give Ant my support to push Caedus

I believe Ant's opinion of Caedus actually lowered in making his thread.