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Force
Sabers
All out

If Surik and Traya win easily then turn Darth Revan into KOTOR Revan.

Revan. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/695389815.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/695389815.gif Really? Against both of them?

Yeah.

Team, he's not that powerful until the novel, no Malak tier Sith is beating the two of them.

Team.

How far apart do you guys have KotOR and Darth Revan? I personally think the gap is fairly slight, which means Darth Revan > Malak. They're likely on the same tier, though.

Darth Malak is confirmed to be > Darth Revan, an amped Darth Malak with two armies and Bastila Shan, couldn't defeat a hindered KotOR Revan.

I think KotOR Revan is significantly more powerful than Darth Revan.

That confirmation being him losing his jaw when he attempted to fight Revan.

That confirmation being from Vandar, as well as numerous quotes stating that his borrowed power from the Star Forge is 'unprecedented' and is empowering him to a level where KotOR Revan wouldn't be capable of defeating him if given enough time.

Good for Vandar, he's wrong. Unprecedented, at the time, perhaps. And if given enough time he would beat KoTOR Revan, but that doesn't mean he surpassed Darth Revan yet, assuming the gap between them is slight.

I'm not using SF Malak in my comparison.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Team.

By feats, accolades and everything else, Revan.

By the fact that their creator said they'd lose to Revan together as well. Time to move on with life.

Avellone had a lot of idea's that were never implemented. Darth Revan has nothing except for non-canon and non-official statements to suggest he could pull this off.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
By feats, accolades and everything else, Revan.

Lmfao, what has Darth Revan done in feats that compares to Traya casually shitstomping the Council and casually one-shotting almost twenty elite Sith?

Also I'm still baffled by the Avellone wank. Apparently Surik can temporarily Force deafen a planet killer, she stomps Vader clearly.

She could Foce deafen him, then still lose.*

Waaaaaay beyond the point there NG.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
She could Foce deafen him, then still lose.*

Again, this is a guy that Avellone claims is up there with ancient Sith, who create galaxies, and that Darth Revan is more powerful than Nihilus given his other statements. Meetra can temporarily block the connection of a planet killing Sith Lord. Clearly she can wreck Vader in the Force too.

There are so many things wrong with that, I'd need to write a CV blog to explain them all.

They're just trolling.

If so, they really are desperate.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Again, this is a guy that Avellone claims is up there with ancient Sith, who create galaxies, and that Darth Revan is more powerful than Nihilus given his other statements. Meetra can temporarily block the connection of a planet killing Sith Lord. Clearly she can wreck Vader in the Force too.

Nope, because he also stated that Vader was > the ancient Sith.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Meetra can temporarily block the connection of a planet killing Sith Lord.

WTF is this from?

Are you talking about when Nihilus tried to drain her?

No, I'm talking about how Avellone compares Darth Revan to Sith who can 'shape galaxies and worlds'.

After further looking at the feat, I don't think he was referring to the Force with that.

He refers to empires of Sith who can shape galaxies and worlds, he says Nihilus isn't as powerful as them in another quote and that Darth Revan is better or equal to any of them.

The Exile being even capable of having such a profound, if temporary, effect on any thing of that tier makes her planetary tier.

Why am I the only one seeing how massively contradictory to the rest of lore that is?

That isn't even the only problem with what Avellone said.

I mean I don't think "shape galaxies and worlds" was in reference to Force power.

It's in reference to what he imagined the true Sith Empire being capable of, Revan is, in his own words, comparable to them. They were meant to be capable of causing wounds in the Force on massive scales and all that nihilistic stuff, with Darth Revan having a doctorate in the ability.

I'm saying he didn't imagine them being capable of shaping galaxies with their *Force powers*.

I know what you're saying, but he hardly suggests it's a feat of industry, they can manufacture wounds in the Force as great or greater than Malachor V. Given Kreia would've killed everything with the echo she designed to create, I doubt we need to imagine what her vast superiors were capable of.

What does any of this have to do with Traya's capabilities? It's not like Traya was going to get more powerful after KotOR II, and it's not like Revan didn't exist before it.

On a side note, I find it strange that Avellone thinks Revan would still win after being deafened. I mean, the stupidity of a non-Force sensitive Revan beating Surik in combat aside, KotOR II was about the Exile being the only character who could live completely without the Force, something that not even Revan managed (the whole point of Traya considering the Exile to be her greatest disciple).

Seems like quoting authors on sources they wrote years ago isn't very reliable.

The point of the quote was that Sever Force wouldn't work on Revan, not that he could beat her without the Force. The quote can technically be interpreted as the latter, but I feel it's more used ironically and for humor purposes.

He says something to the effect of "even then, that wouldn't keep Revan down forever" or something. The implication there is that Revan gets deafened but somehow recovers and goes on to win the duel. The fact that Surik can't beat Revan during that brief period of non-Force sensitivity is pretty laughable.

Also, his quote about Revan trumping Surik and Traya at once seems a bit iffy as well. He doesn't so much cite Revan's prowess in combat as Traya and Surik's character-based deficiencies (Kreia's "stuck in the past" and Surik "has her own troubles", both of which sound like character weaknesses as opposed to power disparities between them and Revan). It's almost as if he's saying that they don't want to fight him as opposed to anything else.

Seems to me like you're desperate and reaching for air, tbh.

Going to bed though. 3:00 am.

Desperate? You email every author and stunt coordinator you can, lmfao.

I don't need to be desperate, because Avellone's opinion can be taken with a grain of salt, just as Karpyshyn's can. You know what's desperate? Dismissing one author's quote in favor of another solely because it supports your point, lmfao.

He also refers to Revan strategising the victory.

That's passable, because Revan's famous for his strategy, knows Battle Precognition, and kind of does that against the Imperial Guard in the novel.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Desperate? You email every author and stunt coordinator you can, lmfao.

I don't need to be desperate, because Avellone's opinion can be taken with a grain of salt, just as Karpyshyn's can. You know what's desperate? Dismissing one author's quote in favor of another solely because it supports your point, lmfao.

Every author's opinions on battles is able to be "taken with a grain of salt". I don't go up to Bart, ask for his opinion on a duel and then take it as canon. Authors aren't canon sources for versus battles, I don't get why people insist on using them as such. Karpyshyn even says:

"I'm not any kind of official expert or authority on Star Wars. I wrote some books for them, but I don't get to say what is or isn't canon or official or anything like that. That's why I'm reluctant to answer questions like this; because even with all these caveats it's inevitable that fans will give my opinion more weight than it's worth. So, to sum up, I told you my opinion, but it doesn't have any real weight, importance or authority."

Now that doesn't go for all author statements, if someone's willing to clarify if something is a Nexus or not, if a character progressed through their source or not, or if they wrote their character to be capable of X, Y, or Z that's perfectly acceptable imho. Asking people who haven't written content for a decade to comment on characters that have been capped and rewritten since then really isn't steady ground for any kind of canon statement. Like seriously, when Avellone was writing for Kotot and by extension Revan, the public consensus was that Revan and the Exile were Sidious and Yoda tier respectively. The novel and SWTOR changed that at least somewhat, as did more detailed explorations of characters, but it's important to remember that it was then that Avellone was writing and actually creating for Star Wars

The fact Avellone has said his opinion is completely unofficial and that his statements have no bearing on anything in the expanded universe, is also pretty straight forward.

"I know more about a character than the person who created them because reasons."

Love it.

Avellone didn't create Revan you retard.

But yeah, his opinion isn't official, and contradicted by Drew's, Revan dies in a good fight.

I'm sorry, where does Drew contradict that opinion?

Drew said that Meetra could potentially beat Revan in sabers, lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Avellone didn't create Revan you retard.

He created Meetra and Traya to be weaker than him, so...

Being weaker than Meetra in sabers doesn't mean he'd lose to her in all out. What the **** is this even? And you have the audacity to call me a retard.

Stay in school, kids.

Take your meds.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He created Meetra and Traya to be weaker than him, so...


They were making Kotor II before the original had even released, let alone the follow up material that Avellone likely hasn't even read. His original intentions are irrelevant. The Ancient Sith have since been explored and obviously can't move planets with their strength, so no one cares what he says about that, because he's not a canon source and never wrote said characters.

I don't get what's so difficult to accept when the authors themselves don't think their opinion is worth more than anyone else.

Worse Avellone doesn't even have exclusive liscense over Meetra or Traya, Drew and SWTOR have both contributed to their characterisation, and we can't assume it aligns with his.

>Avellone says KOTOR Revan could kick Meetra and Traya's ass at the same time.
>Avellone says that even if Meetra somehow severed Revan from the Force he'd still beat her
>Drew writes Meetra to not be remotely comparable to Revan
>Traya practically verbally sucks Revan's dick talking about how powerful he is all throughout KOTOR II, considering him to basically be the embodiment of power
>Meetra says Mando Wars Revan>Meetra or Traya
>Darth Revan did far more with Malachor's nexus than Traya ever did
>Darth Revan, on top of the opinions of both the characters and writers suggesting him to possess more power than Traya, also possesses more knowledge than her, having learned everything he could from her as a Jedi, claiming the malachor archives which is where Traya's Sith knowledge came from, and learning much more past that point, such as the transcript for the greatest Sith ritual ever attempted.

Huh, it seems almost as if there is a consensus between writers, characters, and established lore in the continuity that even pre-novel Revan is above Traya or Meetra.

The counters to this notion are the Drew quote supposedly saying Meetra can outduel Revan, however this fails for multiple reasons. First of all, he says a definitive answer can't be given, his statement isn't even an absolute ("probably", and he was only referring to technical skill when there are a myriad of other factors that play into dueling (such as experience, tactical ingenuity, physicality, and Force power), so using that quote to either claim Meetra outduels Revan or claim that it contradicts Avellone's quotes thereby making both of them invalid is unfounded.

The other argument is that author opinions shouldn't hold weight and that authorial intent doesn't matter in regards to the legitimate published material, however by that same token the KOTOR II cut content doesn't mean shit either since the arguments for that being legitimate are authorial intent (which also counts for writer's explaining their own works) and the notion that G-canon guidelines get passed down to C-canon (George's statements are counted as G-canon so by that same token author statements of C-canon works would also fall into C-canon). And also by the line of thought that authorial intent/positions not expressed in the work don't matter, there is no excuse for dismissing Meetra blatantly admitting inferiority to Mando Wars Revan.

Pretty much everything in the lore points to pre-novel Revan being above either Traya or Meetra, and there doesn't seem to be anything concretely dispelling that notion.

Why does DMB hate KotOR II characters so much? He makes it his mission to shit on them whenever the time arises.

DMB, Drew saying a definitive answer can't be given in regards to a lightsaber duel between Meetra and Revan contradicts Avellone doing just that, it's not rocket science. Meetra's showings also sufficiently suggest she could pose a significant threat to him in this regard.

On topic the only thing that's really been established is Revan's considerable Force superiority to the Exile, and I'm failing to see how Traya having a high opinion of Revan means she would trash him in the Force. Whereas if we follow the logic that Traya is in fact the Entity, then she too should be a significant threat to him in this regard, something also supported by her feats. Collectively therefore they have a pretty good chance of taking him down, and it's certainly not a stomp. Irrespective of Avellone's opinion on the matter.

And on the topic of authorial opinions, I don't believe anybody is advocating a complete dismissal of them as evidence (though under no circumstances are they the final word on such debates, that's just ludicrous.) Merely pointing out that in terms of the rules of canon and continuity they are protected by the square root of jack shit, therefore their legitimacy can be brought into question, whenever and wherever, and the onus is on you to argue their reliability. In this case Avellone's opinion being awfully circumspect.

Oh sh!t. Lovebirds coming to a head? Is the honeymoon over?

oh I'm not saying the shit proves a 2v1 will go in Revan's favor, I'm just saying he's definitively above either individually

We don't need a quote from Avellone to reach that conclusion, lol.

Selenial and DMB dominating this discussion. Beni being swallowed and destroyed by his own retardation. Wonderful!

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Oh sh!t. Lovebirds coming to a head? Is the honeymoon over? DMB was never my lovebird. uhuh

Beni is faithful to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Beni is faithful to me.

>Canderous states Revan is no longer a singular Jedi in a combative regard after meeting the Exile.
>Malak > Darth Revan is canon, so apparently Malak stomps them both.
>Meetra > Alek is stated to be the case in the Mandalorian Wars by the novel and Revan himself, Meetra far surpasses this by the novel, as Revan himself confirms yet again.
>Revan repeatedly refers to Meetra as his greatest and most trusted ally bar none, yet he still considers Malak his 'friend' at this point.
>Traya > Malak is obvious in terms of feats and her entity accolades.
>Meetra > Traya in the years after KotOR II is confirmed by Sion and even Traya herself.

But Chris Avellone, who dismisses himself as any authority, thinks Darth Revan 'kicks ass' with his epic 'strategies'. Obviously we take Chris Avellone's unofficial opinion over actual canonical inferences.

What epic strategies did Darth Revan even do? I recall like....nothing of what his strategies entail.

He states Darth Revan can defeat them with extreme Force power and his master strategies.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
What epic strategies did Darth Revan even do? I recall like....nothing of what his strategies entail. He took the Mando strategies and... copied them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He took the Mando strategies and... copied them.



Huh, I knew it was either you or someone else who said that awhile back, guess I forgot that.

Avellone thinks Revan beats them because of their character weaknesses anyway. It's not even a matter of Revan's combative prowess, lmfao.

It's okay, Nova. The duo might be able to beat pre-Mandalorian Wars Revan.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He took the Mando strategies and... copied them.


He used their own strategies and tactics against them, but he didn't "copy" them. That's misleading. He beat them because he fought like a Mandalorian with an understanding for sacrifice. In other words, he beat the Mandalorians at their own game. He beat the Mandalorians at being Mandalorian. I'm not surprised you can't grasp this concept though. You're intellectually slower than everyone on these boards, Ching and Kurk included.

Wrong. There's at least two or three people in the KoTORII/TOR forum squad that are dumber than Beni.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He used their own strategies and tactics against them, but he didn't "copy" them. That's misleading. He beat them because he fought like a Mandalorian with an understanding for sacrifice. In other words, he beat the Mandalorians at their own game. He beat the Mandalorians at being Mandalorian. I'm not surprised you can't grasp this concept though. You're intellectually slower than everyone on these boards, Ching and Kurk included. Nice to see you took the bait, a disappointing lack of nerdrage though. Ah well.Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wrong. There's at least two or three people in the KoTORII/TOR forum squad that are dumber than Beni. Fresh, Ant and others yeah.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by AncientPower
>Canderous states Revan is no longer a singular Jedi in a combative regard after meeting the Exile.

Citation needed.

Ordo says they are both singular Jedi because they defeated the best of the Mandalorians. But a heavy majority of the Mandalorians were already dead by the time the Exile confronted the Ordo Clan on Dxun, so a direct comparison is misleading.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fresh, Ant and others yeah.
Response doesn't even makes sense. Not only are we not a part of those groups, but using "others" to dodge the point is about as nonsensical as saying nothing at all.

Originally posted by Selenial
Every author's opinions on battles is able to be "taken with a grain of salt". I don't go up to Bart, ask for his opinion on a duel and then take it as canon. Authors aren't canon sources for versus battles, I don't get why people insist on using them as such. Karpyshyn even says:

"I'm not any kind of official expert or authority on Star Wars. I wrote some books for them, but I don't get to say what is or isn't canon or official or anything like that. That's why I'm reluctant to answer questions like this; because even with all these caveats it's inevitable that fans will give my opinion more weight than it's worth. So, to sum up, I told you my opinion, but it doesn't have any real weight, importance or authority."

Now that doesn't go for all author statements, if someone's willing to clarify if something is a Nexus or not, if a character progressed through their source or not, or if they wrote their character to be capable of X, Y, or Z that's perfectly acceptable imho. Asking people who haven't written content for a decade to comment on characters that have been capped and rewritten since then really isn't steady ground for any kind of canon statement. Like seriously, when Avellone was writing for Kotot and by extension Revan, the public consensus was that Revan and the Exile were Sidious and Yoda tier respectively. The novel and SWTOR changed that at least somewhat, as did more detailed explorations of characters, but it's important to remember that it was then that Avellone was writing and actually creating for Star Wars

tbh

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Response doesn't even makes sense. Not only are we not a part of those groups, but using "others" to dodge the point is about as nonsensical as saying nothing at all. Ah sorry, forgot you were in denial. And what point, darling?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ah sorry, forgot you were in denial. And what point, darling?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNYf894ZM8U

Lmao, I really irk you don't I.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ah sorry, forgot you were in denial.

Denial about not supporting KotOR II and not being from the TOR forum? This legit means nothing.

That you have more than a few screws loose in that chasm you call a head, for starters.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's okay, Nova. The duo might be able to beat pre-Mandalorian Wars Revan.

Their Mandalorians Wars versions might be able to, yeah.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ordo says they are both singular Jedi because they defeated the best of the Mandalorians. But a heavy majority of the Mandalorians were already dead by the time the Exile confronted the Ordo Clan on Dxun, so a direct comparison is misleading.

Untrue. He was never comparing their superiority over the Mandalorians - and if you actually listened to the conversation, you'd realize that he was talking about Revan in the context of his travels with him in KotOR I. He was only using superiority to the Mandalorians as praise for the Exile, nothing else.

And yes, he considers them both singular Jedi, so even if you're in denial like Ant that it's a comparison between the two of them, Canderous is still ranking the Exile over any other Jedi he's known. But of course, it's Canderous, not canon.