Outlander/Arcann/Malgus vs. Vader/Dooku/Maul

MythLord

Originally posted by AncientPower
Holding up an instinctive Force barrier, which is cited to be a very poor defense against Force lightning in general, to block Valkorion's Force lightning storm for a few minutes; the mere excess of which crippled multiple ships and killed so many that even SCORPIO considered it amazing. Then surviving a multi-thousand feet plung to the surface after being knocked clean off the platform? Easily Vader tier.

What notes that is an instinctive barrier?

And it didn't cripple the ships; it killed the pilots inside the ships and since nobody could then operate the crafts, they crashed.

Vader tanking the lightning of Starkiller is honestly a better feat.

And Tyranus and Asajj have similar feats of plummeting from insane heights and surviving; the Count wasn't even harmed.

Trocity

Originally posted by MythLord
And it didn't cripple the ships; it killed the pilots inside the ships and since nobody could then operate the crafts, they crashed.

thumb up

The Ellimist

AotC Anakin has one of the best falling feats ever lol.

Nephthys

You're wanking of that already failed, lol.

The Ellimist

No it didn't? The point is, it's better than Arcann's and so renders the latter kind of moot.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by MythLord
And it didn't cripple the ships; it killed the pilots inside the ships and since nobody could then operate the crafts, they crashed.
Wrong.

It short-circuited the Starships. The crew of each Starship got electrocuted as well since they were in contact with machinery.

Originally posted by MythLord
Vader tanking the lightning of Starkiller is honestly a better feat.
You've got to be kidding me?

Starkiller have nothing on Valkorion.

Originally posted by MythLord
And Tyranus and Asajj have similar feats of plummeting from insane heights and surviving; the Count wasn't even harmed.
Quantify insane heights please.

Arcann did not willfully descend in great physical shape and clear focus. He was bombarded with Force powers that eventually sent him flying below the platform.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No it didn't? The point is, it's better than Arcann's and so renders the latter kind of moot.
No, you are posting nonsense.

The Ellimist

Lol

Nephthys

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No it didn't? The point is, it's better than Arcann's and so renders the latter kind of moot.

You did. It isn't though, since Anakin didn't do his feat after a fight and being overpowered by Valkorion's lightning.

S_W_LeGenD

And Anakin fell on a speeder. He did not fell at the bottom of Skycrapers. His plummet would be like a few hundred feet.

In case of Arcann, the bottom was so deep that it was blurred to eye sight.

The Ellimist

If the falling feat is now meant to show that a weakened Arcann can replicate an inferior version of AotC Anakin's showing, I don't see how it's useful anymore.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If the falling feat is now meant to show that a weakened Arcann can replicate an inferior version of AotC Anakin's showing, I don't see how it's useful anymore.
Your argument is flawed.

The Ellimist

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Anakin fell on a speeder. He did not fell at the bottom of Skycrapers. His plummet would be like a few hundred feet.

In case of Arcann, the bottom was so deep that it was blurred to eye sight.

He would already have hit terminal velocity, so it hardly makes a difference. What makes it so impressive is that he times perfectly the fall onto a metallic speeder (which would also jerk him sideways), and with no injuries.

AncientPower

Originally posted by MythLord
What notes that is an instinctive barrier?

And it didn't cripple the ships; it killed the pilots inside the ships and since nobody could then operate the crafts, they crashed.

Vader tanking the lightning of Starkiller is honestly a better feat.

And Tyranus and Asajj have similar feats of plummeting from insane heights and surviving; the Count wasn't even harmed.

Because Valkorion hits him with it almost instantaneously after a slow time scene.

Smoke and electric discharges as well as light flickering, he clearly damaged the ships too. This is only a fraction of the lightning Arcann himself was blocking.

Valkorion casually 'destroyed' Marr's body instantly, easily two-shotted a strike team of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, including the Hero and Tol Braga, pre-prime, and when massively pre-prime, overwhelmed Revan's tutaminis and paralysed him. Starkiller's lightning surpassing or equating that, is straight retarded.

MythLord

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wrong.

It short-circuited the Starships. The crew of each Starship got electrocuted as well since they were in contact with machinery.

And Vader couldn't defend against that with a Barrier, why?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You've got to be kidding me?

Starkiller have nothing on Valkorion.

No shit Sherlock, but 'Killer's usual lightning barrages, or just in general feats of raw power, eclipse short-circuting ships and killing fodder.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Quantify insane heights please.

Arcann did not willfully descend in great physical shape and clear focus. He was bombarded with Force powers that eventually sent him flying below the platform.

Dooku's should be of similar height as Arcann's, and Asajj's is unknown. And they didn't willfully go kamikaze and leap off massive heights, lmao. Dooku just fought both Mace and Kenobi and sustained several close range explosions before the platform he was standing on, and he himself plummeted to the ground. And Asajj got bombarded by an enraged Anakin's assault, after one of her arms got nearly snapped like a twig.

Nephthys

Originally posted by MythLord
No shit Sherlock, but 'Killer's usual lightning barrages, or just in general feats of raw power, eclipse short-circuting ships and killing fodder.

No, they don't. no expression

Originally posted by MythLord
Dooku's should be of similar height as Arcann's, and Asajj's is unknown. And they didn't willfully go kamikaze and leap off massive heights, lmao. Dooku just fought both Mace and Kenobi and sustained several close range explosions before the platform he was standing on, and he himself plummeted to the ground. And Asajj got bombarded by an enraged Anakin's assault, after one of her arms got nearly snapped like a twig.

Dooku fell into water though. erm

MythLord

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because Valkorion hits him with it almost instantaneously after a slow time scene.

Smoke and electric discharges as well as light flickering, he clearly damaged the ships too. This is only a fraction of the lightning Arcann himself was blocking.

Valkorion casually 'destroyed' Marr's body instantly, easily two-shotted a strike team of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, including the Hero and Tol Braga, pre-prime, and when massively pre-prime, overwhelmed Revan's tutaminis and paralysed him. Starkiller's lightning surpassing or equating that, is straight retarded.

So what? Kas'im can throw up a Barrier "in an instant", and you're telling me Arcann cannot?

The only smoke I see is after two ships collide because their pilots died.

I'm not saying 'Killer > Valkorion, lmao. I'm saying the barrage of lightning Valkorion threw at Arcann in that instance isn't quite the same as an all-out Starkiller's barrage.

MythLord

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, they don't. no expression

'Killer? Yeah, he can kill fodder and send a surge through a small ship easily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku fell into water though. erm

I don't recall it being water; though the texture of the game is sketchy.

cs_zoltan

Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion casually 'destroyed' Marr's body instantly, easily two-shotted a strike team of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, including the Hero and Tol Braga, pre-prime, and when massively pre-prime, overwhelmed Revan's tutaminis and paralysed him. Starkiller's lightning surpassing or equating that, is straight retarded.

Lmao, Valkorion was weakened against Arcann.

This is what happens when he is not: https://youtu.be/2g7BwwggxFI?t=20m51s

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Tanking the centre of the explosion of the biggest weapon factory in the galaxy, tanking the explosion on Malachor >>> that.

Neither of those can be considered feats Zoltan, they are are tropes. Storytelling shorthands for a concept that the audience will recognize and understand instantly. In this case - the villain escapes the calamity around him to see another day:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/hu4vao.jpg

We've all seen in on our TV sets or in comics. There is a catastrophic event that should have killed the antagonist, yet he lives. Much of the tanking is not displayed on screen, like Grievous above, who seemingly survives an explosion that can level an entire city - and come out unscathed. Yet we know of course, that Grievous will not be shrugging off that same level of damage in front of our eyes:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/os4ls0.jpg

The same goes for Vader. The off screen element of his tanking on Malachor leaves the feat open to a range of borderline cases. Did he escape last minute and find cover? Possibly? He doesn't look too hot when it comes to tanking splash damage on-panel:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/v5ivm0.jpg

Quite clearly, it takes far less than Sith super-weapons to incapacitate Vader in the midst of combat.

AncientPower

A weakened Valkorion is still a Revan Reborn stomper.

Sinious

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Don't find having a magic power up saber that only works against Arcann and beating him in a saber duel only because Arcann lost his footing to be all that impressive. This doesn't even make sense or fit in the story. Why would Valkorion be shitting on you for not being ready to defeat Arcann, and then praise you for proving yourself ready by defeating him if your achievement is solely based on a lightsaber? And Valky himself says that you have to finish your training or Arcann will defeat you, and then he does the amp thing. I'd say these matter more than a sketchy lightsaber amp that doesn't even make sense as a concept.

Also, doesn't Arcann's alignment to the Force make it harder for Jedi/Sith to fight him? In that sense, I personally think that the Outlander's new training and weapon is an answer to the advantage that Arcann already has.

Nephthys

Originally posted by MythLord
'Killer? Yeah, he can kill fodder and send a surge through a small ship easily.

Don't be stupid. Valkorion's lightning was wiping out every ship near the spire with just the excess lightning. He was directing the bulk of the attack directly at Arcann. It's far greater than what Killer is capable of.

Originally posted by MythLord
I don't recall it being water; though the texture of the game is sketchy.

Agreed.

MythLord

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't be stupid. Valkorion's lightning was wiping out every ship near the spire with just the excess lightning. He was directing the bulk of the attack directly at Arcann. It's far greater than what Killer is capable of.

It wasn't wiping out every ship; it was killing it's pilots by sending surges through said ships. 'Killer's more than capable of that.

Nephthys

No he isn't.

cs_zoltan

That's quite the effort you put into lowballing Ziggy. By the same logic Arcann lost to the smuggler. Vader stomps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHH6YVHGh90

Originally posted by AncientPower
A weakened Valkorion is still a Revan Reborn stomper.

Based on?

AncientPower

Lol.

He was attacking Arcann and as a side effect of that, was shortcircuiting every ship in the vicinity of the spire and caused massive death.

Comprende?

Ziggystardust

Wolfmyth, Producing kills on (usually shielded) star ships with his force lightning, is very far out of Starkillers depth.

Now please go back to that Google hangout chat and discuss with ILS how big and mean Ziggy is.

cs_zoltan

AncientPower

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
That's quite the effort you put into lowballing Ziggy. By the same logic Arcann lost to the smuggler. Vader stomps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHH6YVHGh90

Based on?

Based on the fact Vitiate's power was ever-increasing in the three centuries after and then absorbed another, more powerful planet than Medriaas in Ziost, which enlightened him and vastly increased his capacity in the Force.

cs_zoltan

Originally posted by AncientPower
Based on the fact Vitiate's power was ever-increasing in the three centuries after and then absorbed another, more powerful planet than Medriaas in Ziost, which enlightened him and vastly increased his capacity in the Force.

So? Unless you can put a % on how far he was weakened it's irrelevant. We saw how powerful his lightning was at the moment he fought Arcann, which is hardly beyond Starkiller.

Nephthys

Based on?

Also, no the attack was focused on Arcann.

MythLord

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Now please go back to that Google hangout chat and discuss with ILS how big and mean Ziggy is.

I don't even chat with ILS on Hangout... Come to think of it, I rarely chat on Hangout nowadays.

And ur just jelly cuz u weren't invited to our club.

cs_zoltan

Casually oneshotting an AT-AT pre-prime, overloading a cannon that oneshotted an ISD pre-prime, potentially oneshotting the Gorog is he was aware of it's anatomy, vaporizing stormtroopers. We could also infer the level of destruction he could unleash with his all out lightning from his TK feats.

AncientPower

So you're claiming that I have to substantiate his weakened state when you're the one using the argument that he was weakened to lowball Arcann's feat? Christie Golden tier.

Trocity

Christie Golden tier LMFAO, that's actually priceless.

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by MythLord
I don't even chat with ILS on Hangout... Come to think of it, I rarely chat on Hangout nowadays.

And ur just jelly cuz u weren't invited to our club.

Wrong you are again.

Due to your incompetence, I infiltrated your little safe space months ago right under your nose.

cs_zoltan

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, no the attack was focused on Arcann.

Lmao, focused af:
https://puu.sh/qSEow/636b1174e7.png

cs_zoltan

Originally posted by AncientPower
So you're claiming that I have to substantiate his weakened state when you're the one using the argument that he was weakened to lowball Arcann's feat? Christie Golden tier.

Damn you are dense. You are using his not weakened feats to wank Arcann. We saw how powerful his weakened lightning was, so his all out lightning is irrelevant.

Nephthys

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Lmao, focused af:
https://puu.sh/qSEow/636b1174e7.png

Maybe you should look up the meaning of excess. The main bolts of lightning are targeting Arcann and everything else is unfocused energy. Obviously Valkorion isn't incompetent enough to not be using the majority of the attack against his actual target. A while after that you can clearly see large bolts of lightning coming from the Outlanders hands directed at Arcann, which is clearly the main attack. The rest of it is what I consider excess.

Nephthys

I rather think the first part of that paragraph was the more important aspect.

cs_zoltan

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe you should look up the meaning of excess. The main bolts of lightning are targeting Arcann and everything else is unfocused energy. Obviously Valkorion isn't incompetent enough to not be using the majority of the attack against his actual target. A while after that you can clearly see large bolts of lightning coming from the Outlanders hands directed at Arcann, which is clearly the main attack. The rest of it is what I consider excess.

He was incompetent enough to waste a lot of energy with an unfocused attack. Maybe, just maybe he didn't have a full control over his power through the Outlander erm

The lightning that hit Arcann was the same intensity that killed the crew of those ships.

Ziggystardust

Let's be fair here, It is estimated that the human body will reach 99% of terminal
velocity after falling 1,880 feet (573 meters) which takes anywhere
from 10-14 seconds. So after a certain point, the height of the drop does not matter.

The Ellimist

You can't quantify how weakened Valkorion was, so power scaling here is fruitless.

Going by the actual demonstration of the Lightning, it's sub-Galen for sure; I don't see how that's really a question.

Nephthys

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He was incompetent enough to waste a lot of energy with an unfocused attack. Maybe, just maybe he didn't have a full control over his power through the Outlander erm

The lightning that hit Arcann was the same intensity that killed the crew of those ships.

You're just making that up. erm

Theres no indication it was the same intensity.

MythLord

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Wrong you are again.

Due to your incompetence, I infiltrated your little safe space months ago right under your nose.

I am literally in only one Hangout, atm. Didn't you hear? I no longer use my WollfMyth Hangout profile. I made a new one to escape vermin like yerself.

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
I rather think the first part of that paragraph was the more important aspect.

Sure. I wouldn't disagree. It's a great feat.

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by MythLord
I am literally in only one Hangout, atm. Didn't you hear? I no longer use my WollfMyth Hangout profile. I made a new one to escape vermin like yerself.

I saw that, I have two very loyal people in your space right now - you will never guess who they are, so interrogating a certain member about it is fruitless. These were the same people who let me know of the happenings on comicvine as well.

DarthAnt66

LMFAO @ Ziggy.

MythLord

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I saw that, I have two very loyal people in your space right now - you will never guess who they are, so interrogating a certain member about it is fruitless. These were the same people who let me know of the happenings on comicvine as well.

Doubtful. And even if you weren't lying, the only chats I'm in have only one, two, maybe three members of the SW debating community that you could know. So that should narrow it down... assuming what you're saying is true.

Though, of course you'd know I can leave those hangouts at any time, yes?

MythLord

BTW, Ziggy, since you have intel on my new Hangouts account... what's my name on it?

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by MythLord
Doubtful. And even if you weren't lying, the only chats I'm in have only one, two, maybe three members of the SW debating community that you could know. So that should narrow it down... assuming what you're saying is true.

Though, of course you'd know I can leave those hangouts at any time, yes?

http://media.tenor.co/images/32717e0c462a18414583fdcace04dd9a/raw

Deronn_solo

LAL.
Team 2, obviously.

Ziggystardust

Originally posted by MythLord
BTW, Ziggy, since you have intel on my new Hangouts account... what's my name on it?

William Henning. laughing out loud

Emperordmb

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
William Henning. laughing out loud

Yep

That's our good ol' Wollfy

Ziggystardust

Shut up Dylan wink

MythLord

KEK! Will? He hasn't talked to me in ages, nor is he in any Hangout I am in, atm.

But makes sense. thumb up

Ziggystardust

I know what your google name is young Wollfy. You really don't understand the enigma that is Ziggystardust. I've been around this community since I was ten years old, during the days of the Antediluvian. It was a very different landscape back then, but i've met many people in my time, and two of those people are in your circle right now. Two very loyal companions who will tell me anything I want, you will never guess who they are, they won't crack like a Jordan almond under any sort of interrogation.

UCanShootMyNova

Ziggy, I'm William Henning...

Ziggystardust

Yes I know Syndicate.

UCanShootMyNova

Then why'd you call Wolf William?

Ziggystardust

Because it's amusing?

UCanShootMyNova

Sorry. I sometimes miss the humor.

MythLord

Nah, it's because he has no clue what he's talking about, he's just bullsh!tting to try and seem like an actually competent human being.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by MythLord
And Vader couldn't defend against that with a Barrier, why?
Darth Vader can tank Valkorion's powers now when even the likes of Revan couldn't?

Originally posted by MythLord
No shit Sherlock, but 'Killer's usual lightning barrages, or just in general feats of raw power, eclipse short-circuting ships and killing fodder.
Provide evidence.

I recall Starkiller electrocuting an AT-ST (and its crew) in a battle and activating a machine in another event. In both of these cases, Starkiller focused entirely on the targets, sending multiple bolts into them.

Valkorion unleashed his FLS on Arcann and the latter's defenses deflected its bolts around. Even a single residual bolt of that FLS was enough to down a large Starship mid-flight. Valkorion's bolts (while being deflected by Arcann) cleared the entire space route in the vicinity. You can infer that a large number of Starships were downed. Do keep in mind that Starships are much better shielded than ground vehicles on average and Valkorion was not able to bring his entire power to bear in this particular clash for some reason.

Starkiller have nothing on Valkorion. Not even close.

Originally posted by MythLord
Dooku's should be of similar height as Arcann's, and Asajj's is unknown. And they didn't willfully go kamikaze and leap off massive heights, lmao. Dooku just fought both Mace and Kenobi and sustained several close range explosions before the platform he was standing on, and he himself plummeted to the ground. And Asajj got bombarded by an enraged Anakin's assault, after one of her arms got nearly snapped like a twig.
Show me evidence of that.

UCanShootMyNova

Legend I already posted Galen and Starkiller's feats in lightning above.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Legend I already posted Galen and Starkiller's feats in lightning above.
I am largely aware of Starkiller's showings. Those revelations do not contradict my point.

Beniboybling

Lmfao I'd say I can't believe this barrier thing is a debate when Vader has tanked two of the most potent dark side explosions known in mythos but this is the TOR fanboys so I'm not surprised.

1. The energy unleashed by the Malachor Sith superweapon was not normal energy considering its ability to turn people into ****ing stone, it was evidently of the dark side. It was also powered by a giant (Force-resonant) kyber crystal, eight of which powered the planet-busting Death Star and the explosion of one of which did this.

Notice how those TIE's were vaporised. Valkorion short-circuiting vessels does not compare. Noting that that kyber crystal wasn't even weaponised.

2. The explosion Marek unleashed upon his death that Vader withstood meters from the epicenter, and in a significantly weakened state, (I assume that's what people were referring to, if not a reminder) does not represent Marek's standard ability. But that point he had entered Oneness, allowing him to harness power far greater than anything he'd ever experienced before:And considering that at his peak Starkiller vaporised a 300m frigate, it again makes Valkorion's light show look pretty shitty. Finally:Originally posted by ares834
Lmao

Ahsoka pulled this off in season 1 of TCW... thumb up

Yeah, neither Arcann nor the Outlander have anything on Vader I'm afraid. smile

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmfao I'd say I can't believe this barrier thing is a debate when Vader has tanked two of the most potent dark side explosions known in mythos but this is the TOR fanboys so I'm not surprised.

1. The energy unleashed by the Malachor Sith superweapon was not normal energy considering its ability to turn people into ****ing stone, it was evidently of the dark side. It was also powered by a giant (Force-resonant) kyber crystal, eight of which powered the planet-busting Death Star and the explosion of one of which did this.

Notice how those TIE's were vaporised. Valkorion short-circuiting vessels does not compare. Noting that that kyber crystal wasn't even weaponised.

2. The explosion Marek unleashed upon his death that Vader withstood meters from the epicenter, and in a significantly weakened state, (I assume that's what people were referring to, if not a reminder) does not represent Marek's standard ability. But that point he had entered Oneness, allowing him to harness power far greater than anything he'd ever experienced before:And considering that at his peak Starkiller vaporised a 300m frigate, it again makes Valkorion's light show look pretty shitty. Finally: thumb up

Yeah, neither Arcann nor the Outlander have anything on Vader I'm afraid. smile

So you are trying to assert that Force powers and explosives do not affect Darth Vader now? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yet:

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.

He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.

The apprentice stood over him with his lightsaber upraised and ready to strike. His former Master was trying to stand, feebly willing his massive bulk to move as it was supposed to. Servomotors whined and strained. When he rolled over, the apprentice froze.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

---

I suppose that Jedi Master Ood Bnar is the most powerful Force-user ever because he endured a supernova event. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Or

Perhaps those civilians were most powerful beings in the galaxy who survived attack of a superweapon that wrecked the entire planet (Hint: Uphrades).

---

Seriously, learn to distinguish between events of shock-value (to spice-up storytelling) and actual limitations of a character.

------

As for Starkiller blowing that frigate apart; it was already in the process of disintegration due to forces of gravity acting against it during its fall. Starkiller blew apart a 150m long segment of it but its integrity was (logically) compromised.

Beniboybling

I don't recall saying Vader was invulnerable to all forms of explosion, so your non-answer aside Vader has tanked energy well in excess of what Arcann has managed, I'm sorry this upsets you.

But sure the ship had broken up, still beats > short circuiting vessels.

Zenwolf

Eh well Vader did also survive a huge building explosion with hardly any damage, in Dark Times. So...I mean he seems pretty well guarded against explosions.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am largely aware of Starkiller's showings. Those revelations do not contradict my point.

Except it outright does... You implied his best feat was electrocuting an ATAT crew when its downing the supports of orbital superstructures, powering machines capable of piercing the hull of an ISD and powering the hyperdrive engines of a frigate so large it would have taken him hours to get around.

You have yet to prove that the ships Valkorian's lightning hit even had their shields on. I mean, why would they on a bustling city planet they're docking in?

You have yet to prove it wasn't simply the lightning coursing through the ships and killing the pilots that caused the ships to crash but actual damage to the ship like you seem to be assuming.

Also your assumption that the area was cleared out because Valkorian's lightning downed all the ships in it is ridiculous levels of reaching. It's far more logical that upon seeing a lightning storm around the area the ships decided to - I don't know - leave it? Lol.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't recall saying Vader was invulnerable to all forms of explosion,
So explosion of a generator is more potent than that of a superweapon on Malachor? Good.

Your point flopped.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
so your non-answer aside Vader has tanked energy well in excess of what Arcann has managed, I'm sorry this upsets you.
Show me proof of Darth Vader tanking FLS of a Palpatine-TIER (or superior) Force-user.

This is not a 'who endured what' argument. It is about superiority of Valkorion over Starkiller and inferred limitations of Darth Vader against such a foe.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But sure the ship had broken up, still beats > short circuiting vessels.
Apples and oranges comparison. Force Lightning and Telekinesis are two entirely different Force powers and affect external objects/environment in a vastly different manner.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So explosion of a generator is more potent than that of a superweapon on Malachor? Good.

Your point flopped.Seriously? Your first mistake is comparing Legends to Canon. On top of that in your example Vader was exhausted and vulnerable, not so on Malachor. Finally he failed to erect a Force barrier, wheres on Malachor it would have been necessary.

An apples and oranges comparison, as you would put it.When Arcann manages that I will, but until then I'm at a loss as to why I should bother.

And it's a question of whether Vader could have endured Valkorion-lite's power, in which case he'd manage just fine. A comparison between vanilla Starkiller and Valkorion being irrelevant, as Valkorion was severely weakened and Starkiller in a state of Oneness, gosh.It's all Force energy dear, and the repulse Marek unleashed on the Death Star took the Form of a lightning maelstrom:

http://i.imgur.com/90lhWWx.png

thumb up

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Except it outright does... You implied his best feat was electrocuting an ATAT crew when its downing the supports of orbital superstructures, powering machines capable of piercing the hull of an ISD and powering the hyperdrive engines of a frigate so large it would have taken him hours to get around.
What part of this statement:

"I recall Starkiller electrocuting an AT-ST (and its crew) in a battle and activating a machine in another event. In both of these cases, Starkiller focused entirely on the targets, sending multiple bolts into them.

Valkorion unleashed his FLS on Arcann and the latter's defenses deflected its bolts around. Even a single residual bolt of that FLS was enough to down a large Starship mid-flight. Valkorion's bolts (while being deflected by Arcann) cleared the entire space route in the vicinity. You can infer that a large number of Starships were downed. Do keep in mind that Starships are much better shielded than ground vehicles on average and Valkorion was not able to bring his entire power to bear in this particular clash for some reason.

Starkiller have nothing on Valkorion. Not even close."

- you did not understand?

The only feat of Starkiller that is relevant for comparison here is him electrocuting an AT-ST with Force Lightning. Here are the details:

Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Starkiller's other showings like powering-up machines (and such), are irrelevant examples to consider. Such showings only tell us that Force Lightning can utilized as a source of power for machines.

Now, tell me! Disabling a single AT-ST is a more impressive showing or disabling scores of Starships is?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You have yet to prove that the ships Valkorian's lightning hit even had their shields on. I mean, why would they on a bustling city planet they're docking in?
Asylum was a space-port above a gas giant. It became a battleground before the confrontation between Arcann and the Outlander.

Any traveler would be alert to developments within the spaceport.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You have yet to prove it wasn't simply the lightning coursing through the ships and killing the pilots that caused the ships to crash but actual damage to the ship like you seem to be assuming.
How the hell Force Lightning struck the pilots in the first place? Did it teleport inside?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Also your assumption that the area was cleared out because Valkorian's lightning downed all the ships in it is ridiculous levels of reaching. It's far more logical that upon seeing a lightning storm around the area the ships decided to - I don't know - leave it? Lol.
Right.

Did you even play the game?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Seriously? Your first mistake is comparing Legends to Canon.
I did not bring Starkiller into this discussion. Others did.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On top of that in your example Vader was exhausted and vulnerable, not so on Malachor. Finally he failed to erect a Force barrier, wheres on Malachor it would have been necessary.

An apples and oranges comparison, as you would put it.
In what manner is Malachor's energy relevant to Valkorion's FLS?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
When Arcann manages that I will, but until then I'm at a loss as to why I should bother.
Arcann tanked Palpatine-TIER Force Lightning on Asylum. Your point is moot. And I am being generous here because Palpatine does not have a comparable showing with Force Lightning either.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And it's a question of whether Vader could have endured Valkorion-lite's power, in which case he'd manage just fine.
And I shall take your word for it?

The day when Darth Vader tanks Palpatine's powers, let me know.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
A comparison between vanilla Starkiller and Valkorion being irrelevant, as Valkorion was severely weakened and Starkiller in a state of Oneness, gosh.
How is Starkiller's explosion of energy relevant to the discussion at hand?

Force powers are certainly manifestations of Force energy but they significantly vary in nature and their effects.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's all Force energy dear, and the repulse Marek unleashed on the Death Star took the Form of a lightning maelstrom:

http://i.imgur.com/90lhWWx.png

thumb up

That explosion of energy was potent enough to kill mooks but not powerful Force-users. Even a mortally wounded Darth Vader shrug it off. And it didn't down any Starships in the vicinity.

Beniboybling

Friend, I've already explained the argument to you, do your best to employ memory recall. The explosion Vader tanked on Malachor and the energy Marek unleashed on the Death Star > what Valkorion unleashed on Arcann in terms of potency. A simple comparison makes that quite obvious. So Vader's shown the ability to withstand more potent Force energy than Arcann, simple. On the other hand downing a bunch of starships does not make your lightning Palpatine-tier, not when it couldn't overpower a sub-Yoda Force user.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Friend, I've already explained the argument to you, do your best to employ memory recall.

The explosion Vader tanked on Malachor and the energy Marek unleashed on the Death Star > what Valkorion unleashed on Arcann in terms of potency. A simple comparison makes that quite obvious. And downing a bunch of starships does not make your lightning Palpatine-tier, not when it couldn't overpower a sub-Yoda Force user.
I disagree.

Beniboybling

Thanks, you can PM me your concession if you like.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Thanks, you can PM me your concession if you like.
LOL

The explosions that Darth Vader tanked on Malachor and Death Star are not valid analogues to Valkorion's FLS and tanking it, because they are not similar manifestations of energy.

Show me an example of Palpatine's Force Lightning downing/disabling scores of Starships mid-flight.

You are underestimating defensive abilities of Arcann, it is that simple.

The Ellimist

So why are we only allowed to look at lightning tanking feats? If anything, your attempt to dissociate lightning feats from other applications of the Force just renders your entire argument moot, since Vader isn't even going to use lightning on Arcann; he's going to use telekinesis.

Now, given your own dismissal of any correlation between different kinds of Force abilities, we have to just look directly at Arcann's telekinetic showings, which are very minimal compared to Vader's. We therefore conclude that Vader snaps his pitiful neck without ever needing to care about his ability to block lightning that can kill humans in cockpits.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
LOL

The explosions that Darth Vader tanked on Malachor and Death Star are not valid analogues to Valkorion's FLS and tanking it, because they are not similar manifestations of energy.

Show me an example of Palpatine's Force Lightning downing/disabling scores of Starships mid-flight.

You are underestimating defensive abilities of Arcann, it is that simple. Gosh give it up LeG. If Vader had tanked more potent Force energy, in whatever form, than what Valkorion unleashed on Arcann, he can withstand what Valkorion unleashed on Arcann. That is basic shit that even you can work out.

And overloading Yoda's tutanimis > downing starships. This is also elementary.Originally posted by The Ellimist
So why are we only allowed to look at lightning tanking feats? If anything, your attempt to dissociate lightning feats from other applications of the Force just renders your entire argument moot, since Vader isn't even going to use lightning on Arcann; he's going to use telekinesis.

Now, given your own dismissal of any correlation between different kinds of Force abilities, we have to just look directly at Arcann's telekinetic showings, which are very minimal compared to Vader's. We therefore conclude that Vader snaps his pitiful neck without ever needing to care about his ability to block lightning that can kill humans in cockpits. Legend's argument essentially implodes on itself yeah. We only need ask him what evidence he has that Arcann could have withstood the energy explosions Vader did on Malachor and the Death Star for proof of that.

Zenwolf

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Seriously? Your first mistake is comparing Legends to Canon.

confused

You did the same thing?

The Ellimist

Also the lightning didn't even physically damage the ships, it just killed the crew members, possibly by conducting through the hulls. So yeah, Galen taking out AT-AT's with lightning is far more impressive.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Zenwolf
confused

You did the same thing? I don't mean in that sense, I mean in comparing Vader's Legends limitations to his Canon ones, obviously we can't assume their the same.

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What part of this statement:

"I recall Starkiller electrocuting an AT-ST (and its crew) in a battle and activating a machine in another event. In both of these cases, Starkiller focused entirely on the targets, sending multiple bolts into them.

Valkorion unleashed his FLS on Arcann and the latter's defenses deflected its bolts around. Even a single residual bolt of that FLS was enough to down a large Starship mid-flight. Valkorion's bolts (while being deflected by Arcann) cleared the entire space route in the vicinity. You can infer that a large number of Starships were downed. Do keep in mind that Starships are much better shielded than ground vehicles on average and Valkorion was not able to bring his entire power to bear in this particular clash for some reason.

Starkiller have nothing on Valkorion. Not even close."

- you did not understand?

The only feat of Starkiller that is relevant for comparison here is him electrocuting an AT-ST with Force Lightning. Here are the details:

Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Starkiller's other showings like powering-up machines (and such), are irrelevant examples to consider. Such showings only tell us that Force Lightning can utilized as a source of power for machines.

Now, tell me! Disabling a single AT-ST is a more impressive showing or disabling scores of Starships is?

Asylum was a space-port above a gas giant. It became a battleground before the confrontation between Arcann and the Outlander.

Any traveler would be alert to developments within the spaceport.

How the hell Force Lightning struck the pilots in the first place? Did it teleport inside?

Right.

Did you even play the game?

Did you not* Please learn grammar Legend.

The ability to power a machine capable of such allows us to estimate how much energy was behind the feat. This is basic logic.

I'd say Galen powering the hyper drive of an enormous frigate massively pre prime and destroying supports that were several stories high and thicker then a TIE is better actually.

Fair enough.

Maybe it coursed through the conductive material called metal that makes up the outer layer of ships? Lol.

You haven't addressed my point.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Gosh give it up LeG. If Vader had tanked more potent Force energy, in whatever form, than what Valkorion unleashed on Arcann, he can withstand what Valkorion unleashed on Arcann. That is basic shit that even you can work out.
The argument of 'more potent Force energy' is utterly flawed and misleading.

In real life, energy exists in different forms such as light, heat, mechanical, gravitational, electrical, sound, chemical, nuclear and vice versa. Can you expect a living being to have similar level of resistance against all forms of energy? I do not.

Analogy: Queen Hornet is a bee that is strong and deadly enough to kill hundreds of Honey Bees single-handedly but it cannot tolerate as much heat as a Honey bee can.

Similarly, Force powers differ from each other in nature and their isn't a universal defense against all of them. Your examples reveal that Darth Vader can shrug-off a potent explosion of Dark Side energy through his defenses, but they (in no way or form) affirm that he can deflect Palpatine-TIER Force Lightning.

First, learn a thing or two about Force lightning:

Force Lightning causes excruciating pain as it weakens an individual's life, and is nearly impossible to deflect.

Taken from Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to Force

&

Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.

Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

No where it is stated that explosions of Dark Side energy - that Darth Vader shrug-off - were manifestations of Force lightning.

Even the likes of Yoda and Revan could not shrug-off Palpatine-TIER Force lightning. I don't fancy Darth Vader's chances against it either.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And overloading Yoda's tutanimis > downing starships. This is also elementary. Legend's argument essentially implodes on itself yeah. We only need ask him what evidence he has that Arcann could have withstood the energy explosions Vader did on Malachor and the Death Star for proof of that.
Arcann's defenses could be superior to that of Yoda?

Don't try to lecture me about elementary when you are presenting illogical arguments to make your case.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Also the lightning didn't even physically damage the ships, it just killed the crew members, possibly by conducting through the hulls. So yeah, Galen taking out AT-AT's with lightning is far more impressive.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

SWTOR game engine is not powerful enough to simulate such complex forms of destruction. You only get an idea of what happened to the target through in-game dialogue.

For example: Valkorion's attack (Chapter 1) not just killed Darth Marr but also destroyed his body, but we don't see destruction of Darth Marr's body on-screen. However, Darth Marr confirmed this during a conversation with the Outlander as a Force ghost (Chapter 12).

Vitiate's Force lightning - centuries before his prime - was potent enough to superheat metal and/or melt it. This was implied in a novel.

The Ellimist

Once again, by your own logic, Arcann's lightning defense has nothing to do with his telekinetic defenses, which are what actually matter here since Vader won't be using lightning.

So going by your own logic, what are Arcann's TK defense feats? None? Oops - I guess Vader just snaps his neck, right?

The Ellimist

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
roll eyes (sarcastic)

SWTOR game engine is not powerful enough to simulate such complex forms of destruction. You only get an idea of what happened to the target through in-game dialogue.

Blowing up ships is beyond TOR's game engine? laughing

If you're not going to use visuals, what dialogue tells us that the ships were physically destroyed?

AncientPower

Considering Vaylin is ripping down skyscraper sized buildings, and is Arcann's inferior, I doubt that.

AncientPower

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Blowing up ships is beyond TOR's game engine? laughing

If you're not going to use visuals, what dialogue tells us that the ships were physically destroyed?

Nah he's on point, when the Knights of Zakuul come to surround them and Valkorion roflstomps them, there are meant to be hundreds, but in the scene there aren't even forty.

The Ellimist

But where does it say Arcann is better at telekinesis? Given that Legend is trying to prevent us from observing that a user's abilities in different areas of the Force are correlated with one another.

The Ellimist

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nah he's on point, when the Knights of Zakuul come to surround them and Valkorion roflstomps them, there are meant to be hundreds, but in the scene there aren't even forty.

Wasn't it said somewhere that OCW represented Lucas's original vision for the Jedi?

AncientPower

Then he, as usual, changed his mind. He went and dumped the series in the trash and replaced it with TCW, which is actually canon.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Blowing up ships is beyond TOR's game engine? laughing

If you're not going to use visuals, what dialogue tells us that the ships were physically destroyed?
I have played many games and I can testify that SWTOR game graphics are substandard. Its particle physics are simply terrible.

Now, try to comprehend my argument:

"SWTOR game engine is not powerful enough to simulate such complex forms of destruction. You only get an idea of what happened to the target through in-game dialogue.

For example: Valkorion's attack (Chapter 1) not just killed Darth Marr but also destroyed his body, but we don't see destruction of Darth Marr's body on-screen. However, Darth Marr confirmed this during a conversation with the Outlander as a Force ghost (Chapter 12).

Vitiate's Force lightning - centuries before his prime - was potent enough to superheat metal and/or melt it. This was implied in a novel."

I don't like repeating a point again and again. You claim to be an intellectual, you should not have any trouble in understanding my point then.

The kind of detail you are looking for can only be found in a novel or in conversations.

The Ellimist

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have played many games and I can testify that SWTOR game graphics are substandard. Its particle physics are simply terrible.

So you're telling me that the programmers at Bioware couldn't make some plumes of smoke fly out of the ship, and for the hulls to get damaged?

There's "substandard" and then there's "inept to the point of ridiculousness - oh, wait, because Legend is just making up a BS excuse to peddle his pet theory again!"

Nice job dodging my question: where's the dialogue telling us that the ships were physically destroyed?

That Vitiate uninjured could superheat metal isn't as impressive as taking out military grade, armored starships from hundreds of meters away, .i.e. your original claim, is it? Another classic Legendism.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Once again, by your own logic, Arcann's lightning defense has nothing to do with his telekinetic defenses, which are what actually matter here since Vader won't be using lightning.

So going by your own logic, what are Arcann's TK defense feats? None? Oops - I guess Vader just snaps his neck, right?
You are not following this discussion properly.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So you're telling me that the programmers at Bioware couldn't make some plumes of smoke fly out of the ship, and for the hulls to get damaged?

There's "substandard" and then there's "inept to the point of ridiculousness - oh, wait, because Legend is just making up a BS excuse to peddle his pet theory again!"

Nice job dodging my question: where's the dialogue telling us that the ships were physically destroyed?

That Vitiate uninjured could superheat metal isn't as impressive as taking out military grade, armored starships from hundreds of meters away, .i.e. your original claim, is it? Another classic Legendism.
You expect Force lightning to blow Starships apart now? You have seriously lost it.

Regarding limitations of the game graphics, I supported my stance with example of Darth Marr. Are you not paying attention?

The Ellimist

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You expect Force lightning to blow Starships apart now? You have seriously lost it.

That was YOUR claim, sweetie. Just saying that the visuals aren't disproof isn't enough; you still haven't provided active evidence for your case, to which you have the burden of proof.

Now, have you given up yet?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That was YOUR claim, sweetie. Just saying that the visuals aren't disproof isn't enough; you still haven't provided active evidence for your case, to which you have the burden of proof.

Now, have you given up yet?
I stated this a day ago:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wrong.

It short-circuited the Starships. The crew of each Starship got electrocuted as well since they were in contact with machinery.

Of-course, Force lightning did not destroy outer layers of the Starships but the extent of internal damage they suffered is unknown from visual perspective.

However, we can infer that Valkorion's FLS affected those Starships in a similar manner as Galen's FLS affected an AT-ST. Difference is in sheer scale and potency of the attack. Valkorion's FLS literally dwarfs Starkiller's FLS in sheer scale and also puts it to shame in the aspect of potency because a single (stray) bolt of his FLS was sufficient to disable a large Starship mid-flight.

Have a look: https://i.imgur.com/Hgmi2ap.mp4

Do also keep in mind that Arcann was taking the brunt of Valkorion's attack.

Now will you stop derailing this thread further? My focus is on the arguments of Beniboybling. Don't try to overshadow my responses to him.

You want to draw a comparison between Valkorion and Starkiller, open a new thread for it.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The argument of 'more potent Force energy' is utterly flawed and misleading.

In real life, energy exists in different forms such as light, heat, mechanical, gravitational, electrical, sound, chemical, nuclear and vice versa. Can you expect a living being to have similar level of resistance against all forms of energy? I do not.I'm well aware of what shit your trying to peddle dear, but you continue to ignore that the energy Vader tolerated was just more potent.

Analogy: if a bunker can withstand the ten nuclear detonations, we can be pretty confident it could withstand most other forms of energy barrage.

Force lightning is indeed intrinsically a difficult power to defend against, but I see no reason to believe it's more difficult that the energy unleashed by a weaponised kyber crystal, the same technology behind the planet busting Death Star, that can vaporise anything it touches and turn people to stone... It does not take a genius to work out which expression is more potent, yet you continue to struggle.

Provide some evidence that Valkorion-lite's attack was more threatening, or concede, those are your options. thumb up

It's funny because this is also wrong, both explosions took the form of storms of crackling electrical dark side energy i.e. Force lightning, rendering your pointing further moot.Your proof of this being?Lmao, you didn't answer my question dear, what evidence is there that Arcann could have withstood what Vader did on Malachor and the Death Star?

FreshestSlice

Arcann getting crushed and loosing an arm is a Vader-tier defensive showing.

Nephthys

TBH, Arcann tanked a lot of lightsaber blows. His durability is pretty incredible. And he was still in good enough shape to bitchslap Vaylin afterwards.

Zenwolf

Edit: Wait nvrm, thought there was a scene though.

UCanShootMyNova

Wolverine level healing factor? :P

UCanShootMyNova

Originally posted by Sinious
This doesn't even make sense or fit in the story. Why would Valkorion be shitting on you for not being ready to defeat Arcann, and then praise you for proving yourself ready by defeating him if your achievement is solely based on a lightsaber? And Valky himself says that you have to finish your training or Arcann will defeat you, and then he does the amp thing. I'd say these matter more than a sketchy lightsaber amp that doesn't even make sense as a concept.

Also, doesn't Arcann's alignment to the Force make it harder for Jedi/Sith to fight him? In that sense, I personally think that the Outlander's new training and weapon is an answer to the advantage that Arcann already has.

Ant told me the saber Outlander received empowered him specifically against Arcann.