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Darth Sidious dispatches his apprentice to Dathomir to kill Gethzerion. Does he succeed? Canon + Legends feats apply.

Bonus Round: Vader manages to lure Geth offworld, striking at her on neutral ground.

I think it was outright stated somewhere that Vader was stronger, but that might not apply to Geth's dathomir amp.

She might win on Dathomir, she has a significant amp there; but Vader has a good shot at winning I think. Off of Dathomir Vader wins for sure I think.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I think it was outright stated somewhere that Vader was stronger, but that might not apply to Geth's dathomir amp. It's been stated that Vader was the second most powerful person in the galaxy, second to the Emperor, but the wording of the statement suggest it may in this case be political rather than Force power.

Didn't Tarkin have more "political" power than Vader, though?

Vader.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Didn't Tarkin have more "political" power than Vader, though?

I doubt it. If anything, Vader is much less disposable.

Vader only defers to Tarkin on the Death Star because it's Tarkin's battlestation, but in the grand scheme of things Vader is #2, that's at least how I understand it.

I'm glad some of you are finally coming on board. The quote you're thinking of refers to Vader as Palaptine's right hand man - it is however, still not canon.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader only defers to Tarkin on the Death Star because it's Tarkin's battlestation, but in the grand scheme of things Vader is #2, that's at least how I understand it.

I don't imagine Sidious would ever give a non-Force sensitive a higher station than the dark lord of the sith, lmao.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I'm glad some of you are finally coming on board. The quote you're thinking of refers to Vader as Palaptine's right hand man - it is however, still not canon. Lol don't get ahead of yourself dear, I'll have to suffer a blow from the head before I believe Sidious was too politically powerful for Yoda to beat... in a duel.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's been stated that Vader was the second most powerful person in the galaxy, second to the Emperor, but the wording of the statement suggest it may in this case be political rather than Force power.

Lmao, you too?

His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.

Right, but "devotion to the Emperor" wouldn't give him power/mastery over the dark side, but rather political power as a reward for loyalty. And even if in some contrived way it could be argued to, it begs the question why it's treated as a separate clause to "mastery of the dark side" itself. Then it compares Vader to "any single individual in the galaxy", despite the vast majority of individuals being non-Force sensitive, making the comparison redundant.

If the quote read say "his mastery and knowledge of the dark side gives him more power than any Force wielder in the galaxy, except the Emperor himself" then I'd be on board, but unfortunately it does not.

Because every force users is not included in every individual? Right...

Yeah, that's clearly at least partly political. Devotion to Sidious doesn't make him more powerful in a practical sense. Vader is the second most powerful because of his loyalty/relationship with Sidious as his apprentice and because he is vastly stronger than anyone else in the Empire's employ.

In Dathomir, Gethzerion would most likely win, though it'd be a tough fight. Neutral, Vader takes it.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Because every force users is not included in every individual? Right... Yes, they are, but its redundant to then extend the statement to what's not relevant. It's like saying within real world contexts that X is the smartest man in the galaxy, rather than the world. Just because it makes logical sense doesn't make it any less unnecessary.Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, that's clearly at least partly political. Devotion to Sidious doesn't make him more powerful in a practical sense. Vader is the second most powerful because of his loyalty/relationship with Sidious as his apprentice and because he is vastly stronger than anyone else in the Empire's employ. Yeah, at best his galactic authority is in part a testament to his power in the Force, but nothing more. While Geth's total lack of loyalty to Sidious is an obvious impediment to her own supremacy.

Anyways....Vader should take both rounds, with, or without the quote.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol don't get ahead of yourself dear, I'll have to suffer a blow from the head before I believe Sidious was too politically powerful for Yoda to beat... in a duel.

What quote are you speaking of?

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Source: The New Essential Chronology

In before "Tionne Solusar wrote that one".

Anyways, the Vader quotes wouldn't apply to Gethzerion, who likely relies on Dathomir for her powers.

Can't see Vader dominating Luke in the same way, tbh. It was through eldritch spells, but could Vader defend against those himself?

Luke couldn't even move an AT-ST lodged on a wall, years after the events of TCoPL, kek. Jax Pavan honestly has better feats than Luke did as of that time, and pre-prime Vader dominated him with utter ease.

Gethzerion's level of domination is far more than just ragdolling, though.

She also killed a hundred soldiers with a gesture. Seems beyond Vader's abilities.

mmm

Originally posted by SunRazer
Gethzerion's level of domination is far more than just ragdolling, though.

She also killed a hundred soldiers with a gesture. Seems beyond Vader's abilities.

Starkiller Force pushed like a hundred or so soldiers at once; it doesn't seem like much more of a stretch that he could've just killed them by breaking their necks or something.

By raising a finger and raking it in the air? I doubt it. After all, Vader's fought armies several times, and being able to just kill them all with a gesture would be extremely helpful for him each time, but he never did it.

@Moon/Nova/Sun:

And Vader wasn't trying to outright kill Jax either, and again, it was decades before miniscule-to-substantial gains in power. Luke also has zero knowledge on esoteric socery so that certainly didn't help out at all attack. It was also on a potent dark side nexus, which logically, should have further hindered his ability to call on the Force.

Killing Forceless foes, is superior to pulverizing/disegnerating Force sensitives with their shields up?

It's superior when you consider that Vader never managed it despite the numerous times that he found himself in the same situation.

Vader rarely outright abuses Force powers when he feels doesn't have to, though.

Crushing non-Force sensitives shouldn't be anything for a peer of someone who has utterly obliterated half a 150 meter frigate while erecting barriers powerful enough to deflect the heat of stars. Even 1/8 that amount of power, is enough to phuck up 100 Stormie's.

Yeah, by that logic Gethzerion is above Yoda, Luke, and even Abeloth.

It's difficult to consistently apply the "they didn't use X when it was helpful, so they probably can't" argument. I don't know how to square this in-universe.

It'd work if TFU was anywhere near the sort of medium that TCoPL was. I mean, freaking Shaak Ti & Maris Brood was imbalancing planets there, lol. Paratus was manipulating thousands of droids, etc. - everything is exaggerated there.

And Vader had every reason to abuse his powers in those instances, lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, by that logic Gethzerion is above Yoda, Luke, and even Abeloth.

It's difficult to consistently apply the "they didn't use X when it was helpful, so they probably can't" argument. I don't know how to square this in-universe.

Well, it's not a consistent argument, true, but Vader's constantly in that situation and doesn't do it even when he's driven to his brink. Yoda's never driven to his brink by armies before, Luke's not a valid case since he's so inconsistent and Abeloth sub-consciously disintegrated a city and all the Sith inside.

Does that mean Galen Marek is massively above Vader too? But they have an intense fight - and this is Vader before his prime. How does that work?

Not following you. Vader has pushed armies before, he just hasn't killed them through internal telekinesis/Choke with a mere finger rake.

Starkiller has legit disentergated armored Stormtroopers though, that is vastly above simply killing their unprotected insides, KEK.

Again, TFU is the same source where Shaak Ti and Maris ****ing brood are influencing the Force alignment of entire planets and their populaces.

Isn't it circular to declare Shaak and Maris to be weak in spite of feats to the contrary, because you've already decided that the evidence ought point to their being weak?

Or...is it sexist?

Great feat for them then. After all, they were challangeing Galen, who was stated to be, up there with the top Force sensitives; so it makes absolute sense.

In other words; what happened, happen. I'm not going to cherry pick sources because we feel the need to cherry pick.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Isn't it circular to declare Shaak and Maris to be weak in spite of feats to the contrary, because you've already decided that the evidence ought point to their being weak?

Or...is it sexist?

Nope. I'm simply talking about how sources portray characters differently. There's a lot of exaggerated ones out there, and TFU is one of them (KotOR II, TOR, OCW, DE etc. are all worth mentioning as well). The likes of TCW have more subdued portrayals, etc.

Even provided that Shaak grew quite substantially since RotS (which I find hard to imagine anybody doing in exile), I just can't justify her affecting planetary Force alignments if she was portrayed in another source, ie. under Luceno or Stover's pen. In other sources, it takes the prolonged presence of an entire Jedi/Sith Order, or the presence of somebody like Palpatine to cause such alignment imbalances.

I mean, if we're blindly following feats, Kazdan Paratus, Maris Brood, etc. are all more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi and even Darth Maul, never mind how Shaak Ti compares to them.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Great feat for them then. After all, they were challangeing Galen, who was stated to be, up there with the top Force sensitives; so it makes absolute sense.

In other words; what happened, happen. I'm not going to cherry pick sources because we feel the need to cherry pick.

Great. Kazdan Paratus & Maris Brood > Maul in Force power confirmed.

You said it, not me.

No, the feats said it. There's no way TCW Maul is animating thousands of droids at once or influencing the Force alignments of entire planets and planetary populations, because that's what it is - the medium of the source prohibits such an exaggerated depiction of power. Only in TFU and a select few other sources would such a thing happen.

We know these characters aren't meant to be so powerful. We still rank Vitiate, Nihilus, Sidious etc. highly even though their feats are written in that exaggerated manner, because they're depicted to be those cream-of-the-crop Sith. Maris Brood and Kazdan Paratus would be shat on by Obi-Wan, but they have better Force feats simply because the medium allows it.

Damn, sucks to be a Maul fan, then.

No, sucks to be a Vader fan when Rivi-Anu has better TK feats, lmfao.

That same argument applies to nitpicking a feat of Gethzerion's. Look at the quote putting Vader second - do you really think the authors were thinking of political clout, or whether the narrator was reliable?

Not with the Starkiller scaling and him being pre-prime while sharing parity, LMAO.

All in all, the run around you're doing now isn't warranted. Starkiller obliteration of armoured Stormtroopers isn't out of place for a character that is up there with the top-tier Force sensitives of the mythos, per the author of the series. It happen, accept it, deal with it, and move on.

Geth gets her shit rocked and that's all there is too it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That same argument applies to nitpicking a feat of Gethzerion's.

The difference being that TCoPL depicted Gethzerion as someone who Sidious actually feared - certainly to a greater extent than Vader. Hence, she's like Vitiate, Nihilus, Sidious etc. She's meant to be that powerful. TCoPL is pretty standard with other works of the time in terms of Force power depiction.



I never said anything regarding the quote's reference to political or dark side based power. I said it doesn't refer to Gethzerion, whose powers are circumstantially provided by locations such as Dathomir.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Not with the Starkiller scaling and him being pre-prime while sharing parity, LMAO.

Rivi-Anu was doing better than Starkiller in terms of manipulating capital ships. Maybe Vader's stronger than her, but not Starkiller



Yeah, and if Obi-Wan Kenobi was in this source, he'd do it too. Galen has other feats you'd be better off drawing upon, tbh. Vader also has better scaling for you to use.



That's what the Church said about God creating the universe and mankind.



Lmao. Even if Vader's stronger, he's rocking Luke's shit, not hers. She rocked Luke's shit too. There's nothing suggesting that Vader would rock the shit of anybody of Gethzerion's class.

Nova's horrid arguments, goal posting moving, and cherry picking of sources is going to make me commit suicide, tbh.

Lets review some thing here:

-Geth showing of wrecking Luke isn't more impressive than a vastly pre-prime Vader shitting on Jax.

-Geth showing of killing 100 fodder troopers is less impressive than Starkiller killing dozens of powerful Galen Marek clones with a single telekentic repulse, and a pre-prime Vader shares parity with him.

-Geth is shit in close range, while Vader is one of the most skilled Force sensitives with a blade to ever live. He could destroy her in QCQ if he closes the gap

- Geth's a old hag, while Vader is a handsome black male.

/thread.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nova's horrid arguments, goal posting moving, and cherry picking of sources is going to make me commit suicide, tbh.

You'd be doing us a favor, so go ahead



Unless Vader burst Jax's blood vessels and what not, yeah, it is.



These are the biologically degenerate clones? lmfao

Also, a finger-rake = much less effort than a Force repulse.



I'm discussing Force-only for obvious reasons.



Gethzerion's the Nightsister mother, and Vader's dick was burned off on Mustafar.

Hm....yeah why is TFU dismissed when there are other portrayals of supposed 'ridiculous' Force showings and what not? Seems kinda hypocritical to dismiss one source, yet use similar sources.

Why is Geth's feat against Luke being mentioned here? Geth not only caught him off-guard, but it was on an extremely potent Nexus.

Also, Maris didn't shift the alignment of a planet; Shaak's death did, Maris simply proceeded to turn the Light-Side Shamans resisting said dark change to the Dark Side.

It's either that, or Maris is superior to Maul; take your pick.

I also think it's funny how Nova says TFU shouldn't be taken that seriously because of it being exaggerated, and admits KoTOR is in a similar camp, yet spams away at Traya or Meetra's feats.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hm....yeah why is TFU dismissed when there are other portrayals of supposed 'ridiculous' Force showings and what not? Seems kinda hypocritical to dismiss one source, yet use similar sources. Yeah at the end of the day it's all Legends, I think there is merit in treating it all with the same standard, rather than arbitrarily declare what is accurate and what is not.

Lol at Paratus and Brood having better feats than Maul tho, what cancer.

Let's be fair here: I'm perfectly fine with looking into the creation of the source in question, i.e. what the author/developer believed of the character, how beings within the source are portrayed from their perspective, and what kind of style it's going to take(either subdued, or over the top), and I feel this should impact the feats of Force users.

But to dismiss one source as "exaggerated" arbitrarily because your gut feeling tells you a dude from that source shouldn't be more powerful than Maul; or acknowledging that other sources are similarly exaggerated, but still spamming their feats all over the place to prove they're Vader tier, just doesn't make sense.

Also, just dismissing feats in-general because a media is subdued or over the top is stupid; instead, we should focus on finding more common ground between the media, and then comparing feats.

Well Force wasn't really Maul's forte and it's noted that Paratus was a mechanical whizz as a Jedi.

That's not really my only point. There's also dissmissing a possible vast growth for Ti cuz exile, yet acknowledging Maul's powergrowth from living underground or being an insane hermit who lost his mind; despite Shaak being in a far more mentally and spiritually capable state and in a world lush with the Force.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Lmao, you too?

His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.

What's the source?

My gut says this refers to Force power, because Vader doesn't have a formal position within the Empire or any true legal or military authority like a moff or admiral.

If not Force power, I'm not sure why mastery of the dark side would factor in. Old geezer Muggles like Tarkin are infinitely more powerful than fully trained dark adepts like Inquisitors, who shut up and do what the Tarkins of the Empire tell them to do.

Here: http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp

There is also another from the Inside (issue #65)

In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself.

Vader doesn't have a formal position within the Empire, but in many ways that's what's makes him so powerful. Technically nobody outranks him, and only the Emperor can truly hold him accountable, whereas he can assert the authority of the Emperor and the power of the dark side to any degree he pleases.

And while I agree that Force strength alone doesn't give him ultimate authority in the Empire, it was because of Vader's power in the Force that he was the Emperor's chief enforcer (and the Inquisitors attained their rank for the same reason) and it's through his dark side powers that he's able to crush his enemies and intimidate his rivals, or rather threats to his supremacy.

Originally posted by MythLord
Also, Maris didn't shift the alignment of a planet; Shaak's death did, Maris simply proceeded to turn the Light-Side Shamans resisting said dark change to the Dark Side.

It's either that, or Maris is superior to Maul; take your pick.You too? People seem to forget that the mere threat of Maul's return created a disturbance in the Force felt by beings across the galaxy. And that his presence on Naboo left a dark side stain felt by Princess Leia three frikken decades later. Of course his presence on a world "balanced on a knife edge between light and dark" would cause a shift.

Or are you suggesting Shaak Ti is more powerful than Maul you ****.

I'm not implying anything, and I'm pretty sure I've made it clear I have Maul ahead of Ti.

I'm just noting that Shaak didn't grow considerably "cuz exile" is a bad argument.

Good, keep toeing the line.

Damn, Nova was so salty I can taste it in the tap water from across the Earth.

Across the Earth tap water probably isn't so clean, be prepared to morph into legend soon.

The water isn't coming from across the Earth, Nova's salt just turned all freshwater on Earth into saltwater.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You'd be doing us a favor, so go ahead

We all know you would be the first one begging the lord to give me back if I did, Moon.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Unless Vader burst Jax's blood vessels and what not, yeah, it is.
Context sweetheart, context.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mejb95uzuC1ru3fl1.gif


-Vader wasn't trying to kill Jax, so why would he pop a blood vessel?
-Vader was over 2 decades pre-prime when he performed said feat.
-Luke's ability to call on the Force would have been vitiated by such a powerful nexus, he wasn't expecting an attack of that magnitude, plus, he has zero knowledge of the arcane sorcery of the Force.

Originally posted by SunRazer
These are the biologically degenerate clones? lmfao

That still sported all of the attributes of the original to an lesser, and sometimes even greater extent? Far and away superior to killing a bunch of normal human, non-Force sensitives, lmao.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, a finger-rake = much less effort than a Force repulse.

Yep, given one feat is literally dozens upon dozens of times more impressive, I see why.



Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm discussing Force-only for obvious reasons.
mmm Wasn't aware this was Force only, tbh. I'll take your concession, then.




Originally posted by SunRazer
Gethzerion's the Nightsister mother, and Vader's dick was burned off on Mustafar.

So, she's a s'lut with a rather gaping vagina? Nice to know.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
We all know you would be the first one begging the lord to give me back if I did, Moon.

You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.



Dooku did it when disciplining Ventress.



You were talking about the feat of domination itself, then applying this "pre-prime" thing.



True.



Starkiller didn't disintegrate any of them that were greater than the original, lmfao. And you're calling me out on context?



Hence requiring dozens upon dozens of times more effort.



In fairness, I probably will concede on Vader > Gethzerion.



S'lut? Sounds like another species in Star Wars

Originally posted by MythLord
Why is Geth's feat against Luke being mentioned here? Geth not only caught him off-guard, but it was on an extremely potent Nexus.

Fair enough.



Fair enough again.



Might go with the latter, tbh.



Meetra has nothing that could even be remotely interpreted to be exaggerated, lmfao. And the fact that there's exaggeration in certain showings (I'm looking at Nihilus, Kressh etc. here, with off-panel/implicit power being the only exaggerated things here) doesn't deny everybody their showings.

After all, I still rank Starkiller massively high because of his frigate-busting. I'm not taking it at face value, but that doesn't mean I don't consider it an impressive showing all the same.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Might go with the latter, tbh.

Shaak > Maul, confirmed

Originally posted by SunRazer
Meetra has nothing that could even be remotely interpreted to be exaggerated, lmfao. And the fact that there's exaggeration in certain showings (I'm looking at Nihilus, Kressh etc. here, with off-panel/implicit power being the only exaggerated things here) doesn't deny everybody their showings.

After all, I still rank Starkiller massively high because of his frigate-busting. I'm not taking it at face value, but that doesn't mean I don't consider it an impressive showing all the same.

I was actually more referring to Kreia dropping nigh-20 Sith, when we only see seven, by laughing at them off-screen, tbh.

Originally posted by MythLord
Shaak > Maul, confirmed

Sure. In exaggerated media, as I said. She's below ****ing B-team and Drallig by RotS, lmfao. She's middle-aged by then, IIRC - she's not improving so much as to put her above Maul.



And I'm saying that only Nihilus' off-panel showings on Katarr and Malachor V are truly ridiculous, but he's meant to be that kind of character anyway. There's also Kressh being insanely powerful, given his Tomb's potency.

Traya's stuff is pretty legitimate. And you've already conceded to me on the number discrepancies because of the game engine's faults. There's numerous times where the Prima Guide states that you're fighting armies, but it's represented by what, a dozen enemies? The engine simply can't support that many characters at once using the uncloaking animation. Not to mention there's numerous animation bugs/deficiencies in the game.

After all, Traya heals Tobin without even gesturing in the game, yet in the game files, she touches his forehead. She throws back her hood and enters a combat-ready pose when she attacks the Jedi in the Enclave in the game script, yet she doesn't even gesture and fails to throw back her hood in the vanilla game. She also evidently moves when she dodges Brianna's attacks, even though the game script mentions her doing so with the semblance of "barely moving", which is obviously something that can't be simulated by the game's lackluster animations. You also get the impression that she knocks out Bao-Dur by shutting down his mind, but the game files reveal that she's actually Choking and Crushing the life out of him, forcing him down to one knee and then unconscious on the floor, but this couldn't be accurately simulated by the game. Etc. etc.

Anything in the game files is worth taking, for me. It's more reliable than the game, which is full of bugs and animation deficits that it's impossible to accurately simulate what Obsidian had in mind. If KotOR II was made now, as a TV show, or as a novel, etc, this stuff would all be in there.