Originally posted by Beniboybling
I said I'd respond to Syn at some point, and despite the dissappointing lack of dick pics, here we go:
To begin with Marek's Force push; the point being made here is that none of this exists outside the scope of Windu's capabilities, so it's hardly a feat worth comparing to what Tenebrous achieved, or his superiority over Plagueis in general. Mace was not strained by what he unleashed nor was it achieved with anything more than a single attack, and though in regards to the Raxus feat Marek swept his targets further, this was only because he sustained the push for longer. The long of short of it is that there exists significant parity between the two accomplishments.
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Regarding Plagueis' weather feat, of course it's a narrative dramatisation, but that doesn't make it incompatible with the realities of the universe. Instead it's actually possible for manifestations of the dark side to have a profound effect on the weather, the inadvertent lightning storms on Dromund Kaas being an example, nor am I arguing that Plagueis actively disturbed the weather on Naboo, merely that his presence on Naboo caused a disturbance.
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First of all I want to address the Databank quote, in regards to which you're ignoring the contexts. Yes it states that Marek was "ultimately" no match to Darth Sidious, but you're overlooking the fact that this is made within the contexts of his duel with Darth Vader:Or rather, though Starkiller was able to clash with and defeat Darth Vader he was no match for his more powerful master, full stop. That is the correct reading, whereas your reading - that Marek was initially a match for Sidious but ultimately proved not to be - would prerequisite the first clause, to which the latter is being compared, refer to a duel between Marek and the Emperor that never took place.
With that in mind I'll address the remainder of your claims.
First of all no, I was not ignoring the scan. I was making the point that it was sheer proximity rather than power that was causing Sidious to recoil as is depicted in that comic. Marek hands are inches away from Palpatine's own, and moments later he grabs him, creating an instant feedback loop.
The idea that this suggests parity is based on the notion that Marek was successfully deflecting his attack, but as I already demonstrated, he was not. Enough was getting through to cause him more pain than he'd ever experienced, which includes more pain that getting impaled by a ****ing lightsaber.
You argue that Palpatine's lighting was not doing lethal damage and being dampened by his defences, and yet on top of being in excruciating pain exceeding that of having your flesh incinerated by a plasma weapon, and being on the brink of unconsciousness from start to finish, Sidious' lightning is described as "searing every nerve back to its individual cells", that's the equivalent of third-degree burn that not only extends past the deepest layers of the skin, but destroy blood vessels, cause grave fluid losses and often proves fatal if covering more than half the body, Marek's entire body is being assaulted. In other words Palpatine was literally melting Marek's skin, and causing injuries that would have proven ultimately lethal to any normal human being and at least left him in a critical condition.
On the other hand Palpatine is getting hard on. There is no comparison. And the fact that Marek took a grand total of two steps towards Sidious, does not make the slightest difference.
Moving on, let's talk about the Rogue Shadow, yes it was probably engulfed by the blast, but there is no evidence to suggest it would not have been obliterated or at least seriously damaged if it had stuck around. The fact of the matter is that your argument is based completely in supposition, nowhere in the source material does it state that Marek was holding back, instead he is depicted as not even conscious of what he is doing, utterly surrendering himself to the Force before describing the events of his death in third-person:Within these contexts, it seriously stretches the imagination to assume that Marek was in real control of his actions, and that this was not instead an unchecked explosion of power that ultimately destroyed him, and nowhere does the source material support your intepretation.
In fact, the Starkiller's Databank entry pretty much puts the nail in the coffin on this debate:Or rather, Starkiller was not holding back anything at all.
Now to mop up with your remaining point, that the dark side ending is somehow irrelevant. On that basis? The DS ending, as always, offers an alternative set of events, what could have happened, it does not abandon all rhyme and reason to provide a fanciful imagining of what never would have happened. Characters act within character, and within the scope of their abilities, this has always been the way. And in that respect, offers us an accurate reflection of Marek being "no match" for the Emperor. Something reinforced further by Marek's multiple visions of the future, several of which reference the game's alternate events.
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Now finally Tenny's Bal'demnic. Energy diminishes with distance yes, as a result of the resistance it meets en route. In which case we have 1. air, which would have only fuelled it, 2. rock, which would have only created a build of pressure, intensifying it. Regardless what your doing is ignoring the critical point here, that the explosion reached them nigh instantaneously, so there simply wouldn't be sufficient time for the it to be diminished in the ways you are suggesting, especially considering the limited relief those suggested means would have given. What relevance assumptions regarding the positioning of the caverns to the explosions epicentre have I don't know, but I'm certainly not making any, and I don't need to.
As for the how they landed their ship, it was a shuttle not a cruiser darling. Whereas a perforation is a perforation, i.e. small hole.
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So in summary:Marek's Windu-tier showing does not establish parity let alone superiority to Tenebrous' accomplishments.
Where Tenebrous was more powerful than Plagueis before his eventual prime, Marek was "no match" for the comparable powers of Darth Sidious.
Tenny's Bal'demnic feat remains pretty ****ing impressive yeah, and more than a match for the majority of Marek's accomplishments.I'm prepared to agree to disagree on the weather feat, but even the possibility that it could have occurred surpasses Marek's holistic standing tbh.
You'd be disappointed if I posted them as well.
Except it blatantly is since Galen is destroying or blasting the already destroyed mass of droids out of the room with a push while Mace moves his mass of droids back a few meters.
It was Vitiate actively experimenting which caused such effects, tbh. I can agree that it was a conjunction of unusual weather bolstered by Plagueis's presence that caused the phenomena we see in the book.
Honestly I always thought quote was referencing the game depiction where Galen actually DOES clash sabers with Sidious which doesn't occur in the novel though you're probably right that it's referencing his duel with Vader.
Regardless I never based my stance off the beginning of the quote referencing the duel. I based my stance because of the direct statement that he was ultimately no match for Sidious. Regardless of what the quote is referencing in regards to the dueling aspect it doesn't change what the text is saying in regards to Galen and Sidious's engagement. It says he was ultimately no match for Sidious but that doesn't imply he was outmatched to a large degree imo otherwise it would have just said "no match."
And he's trying to ( scuse the pun ) force him away by pitting his own power against Galen as we can clearly see but ultimately fails.
I'm saying that the full power of Sidious's lightning being diminished to the point that it only caused Galen pain ( extreme though it may have been ) is evidence that Galen is dampening most of its power. I think you'd agree that Sidious's lightning at full power would do far more then simply cause pain.
You understand hyperbole do you not? Galen legitimately wouldn't have been able to survive let alone move if the nerve of every cell was actually being fried. And he's going to be putting all his energy towards moving forward against this stream of energy with his own power meaning he's not keeping himself alive with the aid of the Force. Regardless even if the damage being done was lethal do you think even that would be a fraction of Sidious's power?
Sidious was in an unknown amount of pain. It could have equaled Galen's own, it could have been much less, or it could have exceeded it. We don't know. I honestly think the author simply used a word wrong because he was not entirely aware of its meaning. I've recently asked about this actually so I'd request that we put this segment to the side for now until I can get confirmation
The reason I personally hold this stance btw is because Sidious's skeleton was visible when the lightning was coursing through his body just as Galen's was.
http://i.imgur.com/cBqjwQN.jpg?1
Hardly something to get aroused over.
I'm basing my stance off the logical idea that Galen using the combined energies of himself in Oneness and Sidious desperately assaulting him should have completely annihilated the Rogue Shadow and that as a reasonable justification Galen ( who's main goal is to help the Rogue Shadow escape ) is going to release a blast that will destroy the stormtroopers and provide sufficient distraction to Vader and Sidious but will still allow the Rogue Shadow and its passengers to escape relatively unharmed.
imply put it was through a reckless and suicidal act that he was able to force Sidious to "desperation", much like the ISD feat hardly combat applicable unless he intends to an hero, and only by using Palpatine's own power against him. Yet despite that still failed to do Palpatine real harm.