Sasuke and Itachi vs Kenshiro

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cdtm
Who wins?

KingD19
Muso Tensei. Oh wait, that probably won't stop him from getting a Mangekyo Sharingan level Tsukiyomi, which would cause him to stop doing Muso Tensei, which would let the other brother murder his face.

Also is this Sasuke with Asura chi?

RealityWarper
Originally posted by KingD19
Muso Tensei. Oh wait, that probably won't stop him from getting a Mangekyo Sharingan level Tsukiyomi, which would cause him to stop doing Muso Tensei, which would let the other brother murder his face.

Also is this Sasuke with Asura chi?

No need to argue when you know the answer.

Muso Tensei. = Counter enemies techniques.

Suieishin = Copy enemy techniques (master his entire fighting style / powers)

On top of that Kenshiro can fight with his eyes closed.

KingD19
Originally posted by RealityWarper
No need to argue when you know the answer.

Muso Tensei. = Counter enemies techniques.

Suieishin = Copy enemy techniques (master his entire fighting style / powers)

On top of that Kenshiro can fight with his eyes closed.

The problem with that is that it was made explicitly clear that Kekkei Genkai(Sharingan, Byakugan, etc...) are genetic only and cannot be copied. That's canon, so Suieshin is out the door. Unless it allows him to change his DNA structure into that of an Uchiha.

Why would he fight with his eyes closed? He doesn't know the full depth of the Sharingan. So he'd have no need to.

NemeBro
Sasuke would pretty easily solo.

KingD19
Honestly they should be able to kill him before he realizes he's dead(the irony)

RealityWarper
Originally posted by KingD19
The problem with that is that it was made explicitly clear that Kekkei Genkai(Sharingan, Byakugan, etc...) are genetic only and cannot be copied. That's canon, so Suieshin is out the door. Unless it allows him to change his DNA structure into that of an Uchiha.

True but there is nothing that stops Kenshiro to create his own techniques and counter-techniques on the fly via his own Ki-Mastery which is one the basics of Hokuto Shinken.




And what makes you think that the Sharingan will work against the Muso Tensei which cannot be copied either ?

RealityWarper
Originally posted by KingD19
Honestly they should be able to kill him before he realizes he's dead(the irony)

Based on ?

KingD19
Originally posted by RealityWarper
True but there is nothing that stops Kenshiro to create his own techniques and counter-techniques on the fly via his own Ki-Mastery which is one the basics of Hokuto Shinken.

To use these techniques he has to be solid doesn't he? Or can you use Muso Tensei, be nothingness, and still somehow interact with people?

Originally posted by RealityWarper


And what makes you think that the Sharingan will work against the Muso Tensei which cannot be copied either ?

They don't need to copy Muso Tensei, or any of his techniques(even though they can copy literally every other one, which if he tried to use his copy technique, and they copied it, they'd get Muso Tensei as well.

My point is, with Sharingan, Tsukiyomi is an insta-win. Even Amaterasu, as it's instantaneous. Unless you think he starts the fight in Muso Tensei already.



Originally posted by RealityWarper
Based on ?

Them being ridiculously faster than him.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by KingD19
To use these techniques he has to be solid doesn't he? Or can you use Muso Tensei, be nothingness, and still somehow interact with people?

You can be nothingness and use your technique like usual.

That's why it's a broken move.



The Suieishin isn't something visible.

I'm pretty sure that the Sharingan is limited to ninja techniques.

You can't copy the Muso Tensei at all.

Raoh mastered the Suieishin and he couldn't copy it either.




1) Muso Tensei is a state of being, I see no reasons for Kenshiro not to use it from the start. He only avoided to use it in the Part 2 to make a fair fight against Falco and others, as a part of the plot is that Kenshiro understands not only the techniques of his enemies but help them redeem themselves, which will not be the case here.

Thus he can perfectly start in Muso Tensei.

2) The point of the Muso Tensei is to make the enemies techniques useless.

3) The duration of the Tsukuyomi is very short and Kenshiro has recovered very fast from techniques like that before he mastered the Muso Tensei. Shuh's Illusionary Palm technique, sure it's not as powerful as the Tsukuyomi but it's an example of illusionary technique.

4) I don't remember Sasuke using the Tsukuyomi.










Based on ?

SSJGGogeta
Muso Tensei can be deactivated with strong enough aura. Either Sasuke, or Itachi, would break it with the sheer strength of their chakra.

Or either one of them would just insta-kill him with genjutsu.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Muso Tensei can be deactivated with strong enough aura.

Completely wrong.

1) Kaioh used a specific technique called Anryu Tenha which create a weightless space

2) This didn't affect the Muso Tensei but Kenshiro was disoriented which lead him to stop the technique himself.

3) This technique doesn't work anymore on Kenshiro as he doesn't suffer the effect of the space sickness and he absorbed this ability which allows him to counter his effects if needed.




That's complete bullshit, one more time, so read above and you will maybe understand what happened in the manga instead of Shariforcing and creating some definist fallacy.


Or not.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Completely wrong.

1) Kaioh used a specific technique called Anryu Tenha which create a weightless space

2) This didn't affect the Muso Tensei but Kenshiro was disoriented which lead him to stop the technique himself.

3) This technique doesn't work anymore on Kenshiro as he doesn't suffer the effect of the space sickness and he absorbed this ability which allows him to counter his effects if needed.




That's complete bullshit, one more time, so read above and you will maybe understand what happened in the manga instead of Shariforcing and creating some definist fallacy.


Or not.

Yes, you're completely wrong.

1. Anryu Tenha levitates a person, which disorients them. This is prove that physical events can disrupt the user of MT's concentration, and de-activate it.

2. Irrelevant. If the attack can be stopped, it can be stopped- which it can.

3. There is no "space sickness". You're trying to church up the fact that Kenshiro was disrupted from his concentration by a simple levitation technique, to make it seem less unimpressive.

No. You're wanking a stupid intangibility technique to make it seem like it's unstoppable. When in reality, it can be beaten simply by causing the user to lose concentration. Something that ANY Uchiha could do with LESS than a glance.

And again, all it takes is a large, physical disruption, to make the user lose concentration. Practically any of the HST's relevant characters are capable of doing that effortlessly. You know, by doing things like destroying mountains, continents, heating the atmosphere to 15 million degrees centigrade, etc. thumb up

If I'm wrong, then show me the scan where Raoh's feat is debunked. If it says anything other than, "Muso tensei cannot be interrupted by anything other than Anryu Tenha", then you are WRONG. thumb up

RealityWarper
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yes, you're completely wrong.

1. Anryu Tenha levitates a person, which disorients them. This is prove that physical events can disrupt the user of MT's concentration, and de-activate it.

2. Irrelevant. If the attack can be stopped, it can be stopped- which it can.

3. There is no "space sickness". You're trying to church up the fact that Kenshiro was disrupted from his concentration by a simple levitation technique, to make it seem less unimpressive.


I will not post again what I've already posted in here.

The 3 points that you are making-up and aren't what happened in the manga.

1)

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472804185-kenvshyoh-10.jpg

"Anryu Tenha consists of throwing off your enemy's equilibrium by projecting a weightless space around them using the current created by Evil Ki".


I'm right, you are wrong count: 1

2)

It cannot. That's the point of the Muso Tensei.

There is nothing in the series that stops the Muso Tensei itself because it's the ultimate technique that allows to ignore anyone techniques and supernatural abilities.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472804496-kenshirohnk-mt-23.jpg


"Since we have both assimilated Muso Tensei." Hokuto Shinken techniques are no longer techniques that we can use. This is nothingness ! Return to square one !!"


I'm right, you are wrong count: 2



3)

From the website www.space.com

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472804209-weightlessnesseffects.jpg

"This disorientation can cause astronauts to become queasy a few days"

I'm right, you are wrong count: 3



I'm just exposing the true effect of an ability that have been undermined as a classical intangibility which is completely wrong.

Uchiha's techniques will touch nothing making them completely useless in.



You've just been showed using some definist fallacies. Too bad this argument is invalid.



I think that I showed to you enough context to prove that your arguments were unsound.

dvampire
Sasuke can beat him alone, one genjustu and its bye bye( and any that can be mind controlled).

RealityWarper
I advise anyone that I haven't convinced to look at Dvampire advice. (And take the exact opposite)

KingD19
Ken can start in Muso Tensei. Still dies from a Tsukuyomi overload(or gets trapped in it and killed while stuck in the illusion), unless you're gonna say he never opens his eyes.

"Before using it on Kakashi in Part I, Itachi stated that Tsukuyomi can only be broken by a Sharingan user that shares the same blood as him; as demonstrated when Sasuke overcame Itachi's Tsukuyomi in their battle." So Ken can't break out of it, as he is not an Uchiha, nor does he even have an implanted Sharingan like Danzo.

"If a victim is forced to experience a drastic passage of time in the fraction of a second Tsukuyomi is actually active, the stress on their mind would kill them, even if the genjutsu was a happy and peaceful one, such as when Itachi uses this technique to kill Izumi Uchiha by having her experience decades worth of time in a fraction of a second." So Itachi has evidence that he can simply kill him by forcing him through a few decades in an instant. Even if he didn't use that method, the psychological damage is so great that only Tsunade was capable of reversing the trauma, and Kisame was surprised Kakashi's mind was still intact, so even if he survived, he'd be in no condition to use Muso Tensei or even fight.

There's no way for him to defeat it.

dvampire
Sasuke genjustu anybody that can't resist mind control. Bye bye kenshiro( his one of my favorites but I know when his defeated).

RealityWarper
Originally posted by KingD19
Ken can start in Muso Tensei. Still dies from a Tsukuyomi overload(or gets trapped in it and killed while stuck in the illusion), unless you're gonna say he never opens his eyes.

The Tsukuyomi will just "hit nothing" which is the point of the Muso Tensei.




The nature of the Hokuto Shinken is to be a plot Martial Arts capable to create new techniques on the fly. Ken can absolutely find a counter to that technique if needed whatever he is a Uchiha or not.



That's Itachi here.

Th main problem is that Kenshiro controls his spiritual energies. He literally repelled Kaioh's aura while he was unconscious to the point he made him suffocate.

Is there any evidence that Sasuke can use the same technique ?



The problem is that the Muso Tensei counter every techniques in the first place.





You didn't show any evidence that the Tsukuyomi can affect the Muso Tensei (which is normal considering the nature of the Muso Tensei).

You didn't show any evidence that Sasuke can use the Tsukuyomi.

dvampire
A genjustu can be used on anybody. So bye bye kenshiro.

KingD19
Never said Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi. Itachi can use it, and Sasuke can kill Ken while he's trapped. Tsukuyomi then Amaterasu = Cremated Kenshiro.

Tsukuyomi only requires you to have eyes and a brain. Ken can still see can't he? Still think? Then it works on him unless you have evidence that an eyesight based illusion won't work.

How can he come up with a counter if he's stuck in Itachi's unbreakable(by canon) genjutsu? If I said they could just punch him in the face, you'd say no because by canon, Muso Tensei means they can't touch him. The only counter is to close his eyes. Because if the extremely powerful ninjas of Naruto never found a way to counter it, and the creator says the only way to stop it is be an Uchiha with a strong enough Sharingan basically, Ken is doomed. Because he is not that, so no matter what technique he has, it won't work.


Burden of proof is on you to show Muso Tensei can stop a canonically instant, and unstoppable illusion as long as eye contact is established.

I see your game though, you claim Ken is unstoppable while downplaying others. You say, "Ken can do this with that", and then you say, "But these guys can't do this."

For example -

Me: Tsukuyomi only needs eye contact, is instant, is unbreakable unless you're a fellow Uchiha, etc..
You: Nah, doesn't work. On the off chance it works, he can counter it, despite being stuck in an unbreakable illusory nightmare world.

RealityWarper
PART 1/2

Originally posted by KingD19
Never said Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi. Itachi can use it, and Sasuke can kill Ken while he's trapped. Tsukuyomi then Amaterasu = Cremated Kenshiro.

Ways to counter that:

For both:

A) Muso Tensei (that will be my first answer for any technique your team uses)

For Tsukuyomi:

B) Closing his eyes. It has been said already and Kenshiro can fight the same way than Shuu do.

C) Absorbing their Chi via an Hokuto Ryuuken technique. The Tsuyukomi requires massive amounts of Chakra (which is a combination of Spiritual (Chi / Ki) and physical energies).

For Amaterasu:

D) Kenshiro can send it back to the user via punching.

C) I'm pretty certain that the power of his Ki-Aura will prevent most damages as Kenshiro was attacked by two Flamethrowers Tanks and walked through the flames unharmed, even his clothes.



Muso Tensei ignores any technique used.

Also Kenshiro countered Shuu's Illusionary Palm.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472827367-fist-of-the-north-star-v10-c04-006.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472827367-fist-of-the-north-star-v10-c04-007.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472827368-fist-of-the-north-star-v10-c04-008.jpg



I'm repeating myself but:

*Muso Tensei*
*New Techniques on the fly*

It is clearly say in the manga that the Hokuto Shinken has infinite variations.



Exactly, and you keep ignoring the power of the Muso Tensei.



You see, that's simple.

http://i1.mangareader.net/naruto/142/naruto-1566649.jpg

http://i3.mangareader.net/naruto/142/naruto-1566651.jpg

RealityWarper
PART 2/2
Kenshiro can do that easily.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472832567-fist-of-the-north-star-v15-c04-001.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472832560-fist-of-the-north-star-v15-c04-002.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472832568-fist-of-the-north-star-v15-c04-003.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472832568-fist-of-the-north-star-v15-c04-004.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472832570-fist-of-the-north-star-v15-c04-005.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472832571-fist-of-the-north-star-v15-c04-006.jpg




The nature of the Hokuto Shinken will allow him to counter it.

The Muso Tensei, by itself, is the ultimate technique that allows him to counter his enemies attacks.




I've already posted Raoh's word about the Muso Tensei, when he say that the techniques are now useless because him and Kenshiro mastered it.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Jutsu

"Jutsu (術, Literally meaning: skills/techniques) are the mystical arts a ninja will utilise in battle. To use a technique, the ninja will need to use their chakra. To perform a technique, the ninja will bring out and release the two energies of chakra. By forming hand seals, the ninja is able to manifest the desired technique. Because of the extensive number of hand seals and different combinations, there are thousands of potential techniques to be discovered. "

The definition of what is a technique is quite large as everything is used to attack or defend is a technique by itself.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/technique




That's how far it goes when you can become "one with nothingness".

Their techniques will hit "nothing" making them useless in the process.




Quote the part of my post when I downplay any characters in that thread or that's a baseless statement.




You are paraphrasing. That's not an argument.




Instead of making-up stuff, shows the part of my post where I made a mistake.

The only think that I did was mentioning the Hokuto Shinken capabilities and I explained what the Muso Tensei do.

dvampire
Kenshiro isnt CAPABLE(having attributes REQUIRED) of dodging or resisting a genjustu(only a fanboy or the protection group). After Sasuke owns with a genjustu he'll just chidori him( stab him to death).

RealityWarper
After a long deliberation with myself (0,001 second), I've decided to put Dvampire under the "ignore" function.

His contributions doesn't help anyone and his claims shows an inner stupidity beyond the human comprehension.

I invite everyone and his mother to do the same so we can read those threads without risking our retinas to burn.

Thanks ! big grin

dvampire
Sasuke will literally spam genjustu until his bored and decides to kill him. Because his ABLE( PRODUCING SUFFICIENT POWER). Still WANT(have NEED OF, is one variation) TO(into being near) TRY(MAKE an effort), not ATTEMPT( MAKE an effort TO fail).

RealityWarper
Nothing of that tells us if Sasuke can fight blind or survive lava...

Damn it !

dvampire
The only one that's going to BE ( occupy a particular place) fighting blind is kenshiro until Sasuke stabs his heart.

cdtm
fwiw, Gai's strategy against Itachi was to fight while looking at his feet. So fighting blind is definately a viable strategy against most Sharingan.

dvampire
Sasuke will own kenshiro( he has no IDEA about his ABILITY) even if he fights with his head down. He'll cause a distraction.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by cdtm
fwiw, Gai's strategy against Itachi was to fight while looking at his feet. So fighting blind is definately a viable strategy against most Sharingan.

I didn't even mentioned the fact that the Ninja Bros have to go through Kenshiro's Ki-aura.

I'm sure that they can see it thanks to the Sharingan but I don't see how they can counter it.

Aaaaannnd...


(Muso Tensei ! ^^)

dvampire
Sasuke makes a shadow clone then get him in the genjustu, this is just another option( that would never be used). How hard do you think kenshiro have to hit susanoo?( if I spelled it right) it took a hit from raikage ( whose stronger than kenshiro), if it can take a hit from raikage it'll definitely take a hit from kenshiro.

cdtm
Originally posted by dvampire
Sasuke will own kenshiro( he has no IDEA about his ABILITY) even if he fights with his head down. He'll cause a distraction.

Kenshiro's also insanely fast. And he doesn't fool around testing opponents, like most characters (Goku, Kenichi, and even Luffy start slow before going for the kill.)

dvampire
Sasuke owns every body you've listed including kenshiro. Back to genjustu.😄

Surtur
Originally posted by dvampire
Sasuke owns every body you've listed including kenshiro. Back to genjustu.😄

We get it, you have a crush on Sasuke. But Kenshiro is better.

Also, he is manlier as well. This has no bearing on the fight, but it needed to be mentioned nonetheless.

dvampire
Sasuke kills kenshiro by putting him in a genjustu and using chidori. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimple ass win.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by RealityWarper
*long post* Amatarasu

RealityWarper
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Amatarasu

Muso Tensei.

dvampire
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Amatarasu
Chidori can pierce them! After he gets them in a genjutsu of course!

RealityWarper
Muso Tensei >>>> Genjutsu
Muso Tensei >>>> Chidori
Muso Tensei >>>> Rasengan
Muso Tensei >>>> Whatever technique they have.

dvampire
Genjutsu comes first, then a Chidori. How can he stop susanoo combined with Amatarasu? He can't.

RealityWarper
Genjutsu hit "nothing" then Kenshiro process to kill them.

Again Muso Tensei is superior to whatever technique they use.

dvampire
Genjutsu hits Ken and the fight is over.

RealityWarper
LEL

Dvampire you are a parangon of willfull ignorance

I already proved that the duo will be stomped by Kenshiro.

dvampire
how can Ken get pass a genjutsu? Think for second. Do really think sake isn't going to use genjutsu from the start? And do you really believe that Ken can get pass susanoo? Hell no.( this goes for ummmmm...goku aswell) genjutsu then Chidori for the win!😄

RealityWarper
Look dvampire.

Do you realize that you didn't make a single sound argument as you was incapable to back-up anything and that you wilfully ignored and handwaved everything that has been shown to you ?

dvampire
😭Theres no hope for Ken! Genjutsu ftw. Because its SIMPLE.

RealityWarper
I quoted many ways for Kenshiro to counter the Genjutsu.

dvampire
What is that? Fighting with your head down won't help.😃 How can he stop susanoo and Amaterasu at the same damn time? Remember the sound four, and how the earth one lifted choji with one arm when choji grew to giant size? Raikage can duplicate that,and susanoo protected sasuke from his attack.

RealityWarper
Anyway Genjutsu is meant to control the Ki-flow via the senses of the opponent.

Kenshiro is already immune to Ki-manipulation and he can control his ki-flow.

In short, Kenshiro is immune to Genjutsu.

Kenshiro stomps fairly easily.

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