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I am disgusted by those who believe in Vader more so than Kylo Ren. This is the thread in which you declare where your loyalties lie. Make no mistake Vader fans I will haunt you.

vader easily no offense but kylo was a weak ass ***** he didnt even feel like a villain and was stupid imo. was cheering for rey when she stood up to him and showed him whos boss.

Quan. I love you. But how are you going to haunt the entire forum?

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
vader easily no offense but kylo was a weak ass ***** he didnt even feel like a villain and was stupid imo. was cheering for rey when she stood up to him and showed him whos boss. No. Kylo Ren displayed abilities and raw power beyond almost anything seen in the films by far. He's stated to be one of the most powerful combatants in history as per the new canon, Kylo is far from weak.

I have to side with Vader on this one. Unless we're going strictly by the films Vader has feats far more impressive than Kylo's. Though Ren is by no means weak.

Sorry, what?

Greatest combatant quote please?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Sorry, what?

Greatest combatant quote please? One second.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Sorry, what?

Greatest combatant quote please? "Kylo Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, is one of the most powerful combatants in the history of Star Wars, and is the leader of the Knights of Ren."

StarWars.com

I found it in your thread.

Well assuming that only applies to canon that would make sense as of now.

Yeah, pretty sure it's canon only. Because I can't see Kylo contending with a majority of EU characters with more than a couple feats to their names.

In terms of strictly canon Ren seems to have a much greater potential in the force than Vader. That's all I can say.

I didn't get that impression at all. Vader's casually crunched AT-ATs in canon.

to darthbane77: sorry but thats just bs. you've got to be a fanboy to believe kylo was on of the top fighters obviously disney is trying to make ren look good because he looked like a pussy in the movies lol no offense. people like shaak ti and ahsoka would kick his ass easily no contest. thats what real fighters look like and kylo doesnt compare to them. from: aalyasecura95

Disney's statements trump debater's opinion tbh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I didn't get that impression at all. Vader's casually crunched AT-ATs in canon.
I don't believe it's a radical claim seeing how immature and unrefined he is yet is able to freeze blaster bolts in mid-air. Ren is far from perfect but his force powers seems pretty impressive when compared to Anakin.

Canon Anakin? You know he's slid ATST's, collapsed multiple story structures and created small hurricanes?

to ucanshootmynova: sorry but it is up to us the debaters to call disney out on bs and this is bs. do you think kylo would even stand a chance against someone like ahsoka?? not buying it. if disney is handing out statements like that to people like kylo then pretty much anyone could get them in the future. when will it be too far for you??? when moralo eval is top duelist in the galaxy??? dont take everything at face value thats called being gullible. from: aalyasecura95

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
to darthbane77: sorry but thats just bs. you've got to be a fanboy to believe kylo was on of the top fighters obviously disney is trying to make ren look good because he looked like a pussy in the movies lol no offense. people like shaak ti and ahsoka would kick his ass easily no contest. thats what real fighters look like and kylo doesnt compare to them. from: aalyasecura95 So what you're saying is that the official quote I just provided stating Ren as one of the greatest combatants in Star Wars has no weight? Official statements>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your opinion.

Originally posted by Kurk
I don't believe it's a radical claim seeing how immature and unrefined he is yet is able to freeze blaster bolts in mid-air. Ren is far from perfect but his force powers seems pretty impressive when compared to Anakin.

Kylo definitely appears to have a lot of raw power, but I certainly wouldn't compare him favorably to Anakin in any regard as of now.

I wouldn't compare Vader to Anakin either, so it's OK.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I wouldn't compare Vader to Anakin either, so it's OK.



That true, I wouldn't either. Vader's far more powerful.

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
to ucanshootmynova: sorry but it is up to us the debaters to call disney out on bs and this is bs. do you think kylo would even stand a chance against someone like ahsoka?? not buying it. if disney is handing out statements like that to people like kylo then pretty much anyone could get them in the future. when will it be too far for you??? when moralo eval is top duelist in the galaxy??? dont take everything at face value thats called being gullible. from: aalyasecura95

Is this Jack or one of the Ancients?

Originally posted by ares834


That true, I wouldn't either. Vader's far more powerful.

Tbh.

to darthbane77: it has no weight until it is properly proven when kylo does something impressive until then its not to be taken at face value. if we just believed them without evidence that would be dumb because they are just words the phrase action speaks louder than words comes to mind here.

to ucanshootmynova: so no response to my argument?? also i'm not ancient lol i joined really recently and jack??? i assume thats some guy on this site? although i dont care either way just would like to see you defend that obviously bs quote instead of dodging the question please. from: aalyasecura95

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
from: aalyasecura95

lmao

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
to darthbane77: it has no weight until it is properly proven when kylo does something impressive until then its not to be taken at face value. if we just believed them without evidence that would be dumb because they are just words the phrase action speaks louder than words comes to mind here.

to ucanshootmynova: so no response to my argument?? also i'm not ancient lol i joined really recently and jack??? i assume thats some guy on this site? although i dont care either way just would like to see you defend that obviously bs quote instead of dodging the question please. from: aalyasecura95 Not seeing anything that refutes my quote lol. Your opinion is cancer, and that's saying something coming from me. And these guys think I'm bad lol.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Quan. I love you. But how are you going to haunt the entire forum? Endless replies attacking Vader.

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
to ucanshootmynova: sorry but it is up to us the debaters to call disney out on bs and this is bs. do you think kylo would even stand a chance against someone like ahsoka?? not buying it. if disney is handing out statements like that to people like kylo then pretty much anyone could get them in the future. when will it be too far for you??? when moralo eval is top duelist in the galaxy??? dont take everything at face value thats called being gullible. from: aalyasecura95 This is all prior to Kylo's training being complete. Look at Anakin in AOTC and how moronic and childish he was. Mark my words boy and mark them well. Ren will make Vader look pathetic by trilogy's end.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This is all prior to Kylo's training being complete. Look at Anakin in AOTC and how moronic and childish he was. Mark my words boy and mark them well. Ren will make Vader look pathetic by trilogy's end.

You understand it my friend

Vader is far superior to Kylo Ren. Vader has the feats in the Disney canon to prove it. Kylo is also afraid he will never be on the level of Vader.

As a combatant? Vader stomps, yeah.

As a character? I don't think Vader is out of Ren's league, tbh.

Originally posted by playa1258
Vader is far superior to Kylo Ren. Vader has the feats in the Disney canon to prove it. Kylo is also afraid he will never be on the level of Vader.

Feats say everything now? Kylo is afrad that he isn't going to be as strong as Vader, you're the one placing a combative context around it.

Originally posted by MythLord
As a combatant? Vader stomps, yeah.

As a character? I don't think Vader is out of Ren's league, tbh.

Vader wasn't stomping Ahsoka so he is definitely not going to stomp Kylo.

Kylo's a match for Ahsoka now?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Vader wasn't stomping Ahsoka so he is definitely not going to stomp Kylo.

Rebels Tano is probably > Ren, tbh.

And I was referring to EU Vader.

Comparing Kylo Ren to Vader is like comparing Luke Walton to to Lebron James. Kylo so far has been a terrible emo-like character well suited for millennials.

He's probably better then Ahsoka... Let me explain myself here:

What makes a Force user a good combatant (both with the Force and a lightsaber)? It's his/her training, potential, raw power, aptitude for combat, ....right? So it's pretty believable that all those characteristics point towards Kylo , due to his lineage (grandson of Anakin Skywalker) and the accolades he received (from the Visual Guide), besides the training both fighters received which is the most important argument for Ahsoka I've seen come foward. Now let's analyze the training Kylo's received up to The Force Awakens and compare it to Ahsoka's.

First we know that Luke Skywalker, Ben/Kylo's Jedi Master, was trained by Yoda to the point that he was considered a full fledged Jedi Knight (RotJ), sure his time under Yoda was limited but his immense potential in the Force made up for that (besides that in the Revenge of the Sith novelization Yoda says to Obi-Wan that the traditional methode of training isn't the only way to do it IIRC). At this point Luke should be able to pass down his knowledge and train other students to that same extent like for example was done in the PT Jedi Order, right?
Add to that the fact that Luke began studying the Force extensively after the destruction of the Empire (Source: Bloodline, The Character Encyclopedia and Shattered Empire comic) and learned a lot from Lor San Tekka, who recovered much of the old Jedi's history, possessed many Jedi secrets, visited every single Jedi ruin and had knowledge about many ancient Jedi traditions. So Kylo's Jedi training was provided by someone who was not only a trained Jedi himself but also studied the Force and the Jedi traditions of the old Order. Now is the training Anakin's capable of providing Ahsoka really better then Luke's? To my opinion, no becuase Luke actually studied the Force to a greater degree over a longer duration of time.

However this was only Kylo's Jedi training, if we now take a look at his training under Snoke, who was said to have immense knowledge of the Dark Side of the Force and how Kylo, even at the point of The Force Awakens, has studied rare Dark Side lore then it's only logical that not only did Kylo receive more training then Ahsoka but also to noticeable greater degree (Ahsoka was never noted to have studied rare Force powers or anything in that area).

That's why I think Kylo's a better combatant then Ahsoka, every single aspect that defines a warrior is pointed towards Kylo Ren, from pure connection to the Force to his training.

In terms of his knowledge and mastery over the Force, Kylo is probably better than Ahsoka. However in terms of duelling talent, within the scope of Canon, classically trained duelists > those products of improvised teachings, and the primitive style he demonstrates in TFA is deliberately intended to reflect that. Kylo's Force advantage isn't substantial enough to make up for Ahsoka's advantage in skill imo when she's holding her own against powerhouses like Maul & Vader, so indeed, she would best him.

Originally posted by playa1258
Vader is far superior to Kylo Ren. Vader has the feats in the Disney canon to prove it. Kylo is also afraid he will never be on the level of Vader. An untrained Kylo. Anakin was afraid of losing his mother, wife, and was disrespected by the Jedi in his own infantile mind. Kylo already eclipsed him in evil. His blaster bolt catching force feat eclipses live action Vader as well. Kylo is better. Wait until you see him when his training has been completed.

Snoke and Kylo >>>Palpatine and Vader. Mark my words. I've said it from the beginning.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Comparing Kylo Ren to Vader is like comparing Luke Walton to to Lebron James. Kylo so far has been a terrible emo-like character well suited for millennials. Another post highlighting your emotional laden posts which no one takes seriously. Kylo Ren is a big deal. His training isn't even complete yet. I get it you like a guy who cried when he lost his mother and his pathetic wife. You are probably crying at this very moment but I bet you can't explain why. Weak.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Another post highlighting your emotional laden posts which no one takes seriously. Kylo Ren is a big deal. His training isn't even complete yet. I get it you like a guy who cried when he lost his mother and his pathetic wife. You are probably crying at this very moment but I bet you can't explain why. Weak.

Yes. This coming from the child nerd raging about his character sucking and threatening to stalk those who disagree with him, then making a thread confirming his butthurt.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/316/773/59d.jpg

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In terms of his knowledge and mastery over the Force, Kylo is probably better than Ahsoka. However in terms of duelling talent, within the scope of Canon, classically trained duelists > those products of improvised teachings, and the primitive style he demonstrates in TFA is deliberately intended to reflect that. Kylo's Force advantage isn't substantial enough to make up for Ahsoka's advantage in skill imo when she's holding her own against powerhouses like Maul & Vader, so indeed, she would best him.

That would be true for Star Wars Rebels where you have Kanan who's barely trained as a Padawan. Looking at how Luke was able to match Vader, a classically trained duelist, and how he gained a vast amount of knowledge about the old Jedi Order (which most likely included the fighting styles), I doubt that it would make Ahsoka > Kylo in terms of duelling especially since this same Luke trianed Kylo.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yes. This coming from the child nerd raging about his character sucking and threatening to stalk those who disagree with him, then making a thread confirming his butthurt.

What kind of emotional wimp thinks stalking is replying to dissenters on a message board people come to debate. If your skin is this thin avoid this site at all costs. Stalkers everywhere you crybaby wimp.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
That would be true for Star Wars Rebels where you have Kanan who's barely trained as a Padawan. Looking at how Luke was able to match Vader, a classically trained duelist, and how he gained a vast amount of knowledge about the old Jedi Order (which most likely included the fighting styles), I doubt that it would make Ahsoka > Kylo in terms of duelling especially since this same Luke trianed Kylo. You're speculating. The fact remains that Kylo has only demonstrated crude talent with a lightsaber, the weapon itself reflecting his inexperience, and though Luke's knowledge of Jedi history and traditions appears somewhat substantial, I'm seeing no evidence to suggest it involved comprehensive knowledge of the Jedi fighting arts, which it stands to reason was largely erased by the Empire.

Luke may have been able to match Vader in Form V but Kylo is no Luke, and I see no reason to believe he'd be a match for someone who was trained by Anakin, one of the greatest Jedi of the Order (whereas Luke lacks both resources and experience as a teacher) and developed lightsaber talents that proved a challenge for Vader and rivalled that of Darth Maul, one of the most skilled Sith in history.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What kind of emotional wimp thinks stalking is replying to dissenters on a message board people come to debate. If your skin is this thin avoid this site at all costs. Stalkers everywhere you crybaby wimp. boo hoo

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
boo hoo So you just confirmed your tears. By the way Vader is dead. Kylo isn't. Win/win.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you just confirmed your tears. By the way Vader is dead. Kylo isn't. Win/win. please continue the butthurt for our amusement.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
please continue the butthurt for our amusement. You say the same things in every thread. You aren't even amusing or intelligent. You love crybabies like Anakin. It's fine. He ended up dying going back to the light. Wimp.

Kylo was mind raped by a scavenger.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You say the same things in every thread. You aren't even amusing or intelligent. You love crybabies like Anakin. It's fine. He ended up dying going back to the light. Wimp. continue crying

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
continue crying Yes, feel free to get back to me after you get this out of your system. You are a second rate wimp.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, feel free to get back to me after you get this out of your system. You are a second rate wimp. yes yes keep crying, let it all out.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
yes yes keep crying, let it all out. Kylo is alive and will be stronger. Vader is a dead guy who failed the dark side. I love life right now! Praise be to the First Order.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Kylo is alive and will be stronger. Vader is a dead guy who failed the dark side. I love life right now! Praise be to the First Order. rationalizing is the final step..

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
rationalizing is the final step.. I am stating facts. Kylo is alive and will complete his training. Vader is dead and turned in the dark side. You may love a traitor I don't. I love the First Order which is canonically proven to be more efficient than the empire.

Yea that's a cute opinion. So is the comment of you allegedly loving life while continuously having your opinion criticized and intelligence questioned. Hence the rationalizing.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm seeing no evidence to suggest it involved comprehensive knowledge of the Jedi fighting arts, which it stands to reason was largely erased by the Empire..

? So then how were the Inquisitors trained? Plus recalling the GI did have access to databanks of the Jedi fighting arts so..I don't see why the Empire would erase information that Inquisitors would need.

Erased or otherwise stolen, either way not accessible to Luke.

Our Tale of the Tape:

Vader:
- Former fully trained Jedi Knight and Sith Lord
- Ability to kill across spanse of the galaxy, stop blaster bolts with bare "hands"
- Created own lightsaber form (Djem So, Soresu, Ataru mixed)
- Well over 30 years combat experience
- Defeated by his son

Kylo Ren:
- Failed Jedi Apprentice and Master of the Knights of Ren
Has not completed dark side training
- Ability to telekinetic freeze blaster bolts and beings
- Use of tri-saber with Kyber crystal and probably lightsaber form Djem So
- Acts like a teenager when does not get his way
- Defeated by an untrained Force user (who probably is Luke's kid)

This goes to Vader

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You're speculating. The fact remains that Kylo has only demonstrated crude talent with a lightsaber, the weapon itself reflecting his inexperience, and though Luke's knowledge of Jedi history and traditions appears somewhat substantial, I'm seeing no evidence to suggest it involved comprehensive knowledge of the Jedi fighting arts, which it stands to reason was largely erased by the Empire.

Luke may have been able to match Vader in Form V but Kylo is no Luke, and I see no reason to believe he'd be a match for someone who was trained by Anakin, one of the greatest Jedi of the Order (whereas Luke lacks both resources and experience as a teacher) and developed lightsaber talents that proved a challenge for Vader and rivalled that of Darth Maul, one of the most skilled Sith in history.

Speculating? Everything I said was based on actual evidence besides Luke obtaining knowledge of the classic lightsaber forms but that hardly does anything to my entire argument. Kylo's crude and unstable lightsaber is confirmed by the cast of TFA to be because of his own conflicted personality, not because he lacks knowledge.

And Ahsoka is no Darth Vader, what is your point? Luke actually studied the Force and Jedi traditions in genersl to a greater extent then Anakin by the time of TFA. You bringing up feats from Ahsoka isn't really usable against Kylo since he lacks those kind of feats.

For now, Vader is the clear choice here.

Originally posted by Petrus
For now, Vader is the clear choice here.

In terms of combative prowess absolutely but he isn't stomping , not even close.

lal @ DD9 thinking his arguments hold up against scrutiny.

As of now, Vader easily. But that could change by the end of the trilogy.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Speculating? Everything I said was based on actual evidence besides Luke obtaining knowledge of the classic lightsaber forms but that hardly does anything to my entire argument. Kylo's crude and unstable lightsaber is confirmed by the cast of TFA to be because of his own conflicted personality, not because he lacks knowledge. Yes, speculation, you've raised no proof that Luke possessed comprehensive knowledge of the Jedi fighting arts, and would have been able to pass that down to Kylo, nor has Kylo done anything to suggest he is a match for one the most skilled Sith in history. That simple. And Kylo's crude and unstable weapon reflects the fact he doesn't know how to build a frikken lightsaber, or to quote the TFA Visual Dictionary, "suggests construction by an inexperienced hand." But it's his cruder "primitive" fighting style that speaks volumes. My point is friend that we can't expect Kylo to achieve the same level of talent as Luke, who possessed the potential of the Chosen One, Ahsoka's feats speak for themselves. Nor are Force traditions relevant to lightsaber combat.

And of course Tano's feats are usable against Kylo, it places the burden or proof on you to demonstrate he is a match for them, so far so unsuccessful.Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
In terms of combative prowess absolutely but he isn't stomping , not even close. An all-out Vader would win comfortably, though it wouldn't necessarily be a stomp.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes, speculation, you've raised no proof that Luke possessed comprehensive knowledge of the Jedi fighting arts, and would have been able to pass that down to Kylo, nor has Kylo done anything to suggest he is a match for one the most skilled Sith in history. That simple. And Kylo's crude and unstable weapon reflects the fact he doesn't know how to build a frikken lightsaber, or to quote the TFA Visual Dictionary, "suggests construction by an inexperienced hand." But it's his cruder "primitive" fighting style that speaks volumes. My point is friend that we can't expect Kylo to achieve the same level of talent as Luke, who possessed the potential of the Chosen One, Ahsoka's feats speak for themselves. Nor are Force traditions relevant to lightsaber combat.

And of course Tano's feats are usable against Kylo, it places the burden or proof on you to demonstrate he is a match for them, so far so unsuccessful.An all-out Vader would win comfortably, though it wouldn't necessarily be a stomp.

Like I said, it doesn't influence my argument in general. Kylo just hasn't been put in a situation like Ahsoka ik Season 2 to prove himself but that doesn't mean he can't. He's inexperienced in terms of lightsaber building? Now that definitely means that he's a bad combatant. How do you know his fightingstyle is primitive and what does it matter he isn't as talented as Luke? His talent still outsptrips that of Ahsoka and so does his amount of training. It's Jedi traditions, Jedi history and Jedi secrets, that can include anything ranging from combat to spiritual approach of the Force.

Like I said previously in my comment, Kylo hasn't been put against the same opponents Ahsoka has, but that doesn't mean he can't perform similarly or better. That's why I compare their training, potential, ...

My general argument comes down to the fact that Kylo has every single thing in his favor, yes even training. It means jack shit that he isn't trained in the traditional sense of fighting, it didn't help Vader against Luke nor is it going to help Ahsoka against Kylo because like in Luke against Vader, Kylo is the one who possesses the bigger potential, better connection to the Force and even the amount of training by a more knowledgeable master then Ahsoka's.

EDIT: Ah what the hell, I'll make a final effort.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Like I said, it doesn't influence my argument in general.Uh-huh, Ahsoka > Ren as a duelist, that's the point of contention here.The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate he can.It reflects his inexperience in general yes, this may well be the first lightsaber he's ever handled.Because J.J. described it in that way and its visibly crude.It matters because it makes your comparison to Luke irrelevant.In regards to lightsaber combat you still haven't proven that.You haven't proven this either.I'm not interested it what you think it might involve, I'm asking for proof, not assumptions.Which again, it's down to you to prove. Regardless this only makes him inexperienced.And there is no evidence that Kylo's lightsaber training was as good as Ahsoka's.Aside from classical training and demonstrated skill with a lightsaber, sure.Luke didn't have half those things on Vader, but OK, more importantly though there is no evidence to suggest Luke is a better lightsaber combat instructor than Anakin, one of the most talented duelists in Jedi history, with all the Jedi's combat knowledge and resources at his disposal, and its ridiculous to assume otherwise.

I would say Vader

Originally posted by Beniboybling
EDIT: Ah what the hell, I'll make a final effort.

Uh-huh, Ahsoka > Ren as a duelist, that's the point of contention here.The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate he can.It reflects his inexperience in general yes, this may well be the first lightsaber he's ever handled.Because J.J. described it in that way and its visibly crude.It matters because it makes your comparison to Luke irrelevant.In regards to lightsaber combat you still haven't proven that.You haven't proven this either.I'm not interested it what you think it might involve, I'm asking for proof, not assumptions.Which again, it's down to you to prove. Regardless this only makes him inexperienced.And there is no evidence that Kylo's lightsaber training was as good as Ahsoka's.Aside from classical training and demonstrated skill with a lightsaber, sure.Luke didn't have half those things on Vader, but OK, more importantly though there is no evidence to suggest Luke is a better lightsaber combat instructor than Anakin, one of the most talented duelists in Jedi history, with all the Jedi's combat knowledge and resources at his disposal, and its ridiculous to assume otherwise.

Yes I did by comparing his knowledge, training, potential,... and Maul's confirmed to be Ahsoka's superior anyway.

He was trained in lightsaber combat by Luke and we know he started training with Luke at a young age until he was at least 24 years old while Ahsoka left the Jedi Order when she was 17. So no it's not the first lightsaber he's handled nor is he inexperienced in it.

So because his lightsaber style is 'crude' it's automatically bad? JJ's quotes aren't canon, the visual guide which confirms Kylo's training is.

The comparison isn't irrelevant, Kylo is, like Luke, more talented/has a higher potential then Ahsoka (Vader in Luke's case). We know that connection to the Force is the most important aspect when looking at lightsaber talent so yes Kylo's going to be more talentend in it than Ashoka.

It are general terms, I could as easily ask for evidence that it doesn't inlcude Jedi combat knowledge.

You also have no prove Anakin is a better teacher then Luke.... First of all Anakin himself didn't have access to all the Jedi's knowledge (e.g. the holocron vault was only for council members) nor was he ever said to have intesively studied Jedi knowledge which extended beyond his standard training at the hands of Obi-Wan. Luke's knowledge of lightsaber combat in RotJ, as inexperienced as he was, was enough for him to match Vader, like Ahsoka a classical trained duelist, and eventually defaet him so a general more knowledgeable Luke (was studied Jedi lore intensively) would definitely been able to give training to the same extent as he was given when becoming a Jedi.

So tell me why Luke isn't as good a teacher as Anakin? Because he wasn't trained in the classic forms? Didn't stop him against Vader (a classical trained fighter) so it isn't going to stop Kylo against Ahsoka. Because his isn't knowledgeable? Not really since Luke was actually confirmed to have studied old Jedi lore extensively and had something around two decades to grow after RotJ. Or maybe because Luke isn't skilled? Well he matched Vader just fine so I doubt that. Then was is going to stop him?

Ant, what's with the newbie set up?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yea that's a cute opinion. So is the comment of you allegedly loving life while continuously having your opinion criticized and intelligence questioned. Hence the rationalizing. I am loving life. I love how you can't let this go.mmi love the impact I have. I am smiling ear to ear.

I finally just voted. Only six of us that prefer Ren. I suspect this will change after episode eight once you sycophants and frontrunners will see more Kylo feats and events after his training was complete. I can't wait to see you weaklings change your tune.

Quan, I don't see why you have to throw around petty insults for opinions.

Someone hurt him.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Quan, I don't see why you have to throw around petty insults for opinions. Frontrunners annoy me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Someone hurt him. Nah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Someone hurt him. everyone hurt him. He stalks those people mercilessly while he "loves life".

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
everyone hurt him. He stalks those people mercilessly while he "loves life". I do love life and no this isn't stalking. You still do not understand what stalking actually is. You are a mental midget. Kylo is better than Vader.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do love life and no this isn't stalking. You still do not understand what stalking actually is. You are a mental midget. Kylo is better than Vader.

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_medium/1551/15516546/2898389-0594112417-5b3.p.jpg

Another childish and laughable response from the permabanned.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Another childish and laughable response from the permabanned.

Another instance of a butthurt 14 year old child using big boy words he doesn't understand.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Another instance of a butthurt 14 year old child using big boy words he doesn't understand. What words were big boy words ? Your intellect is indeed tiny. Also ironic since you don't even know what stalking means.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What words were big boy words ? Your intellect is indeed tiny. Also ironic since you don't even know what stalking means.

Sure thing my butthurt adolescent. I'll let you get the last word in before you retreat back into your world of ridicule

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Sure thing my butthurt adolescent. I'll let you get the last word in before you retreat back into your world of ridicule So you concede to me like a weakling and further retreat. Continue to be a beta male. It has gotten you this far so you be you. I win once again.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you concede to me like a weakling and further retreat. Continue to be a beta male. It has gotten you this far so you be you. I win once again.

Yup.. The 14 year old child attributes posting last to "winning". I rest my case.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yup.. The 14 year old child attributes posting last to "winning". I rest my case. I own you. You came right back to me mocking of you because you yearn to be respected. It's what you've never achieved in life. Now begone like you said you'd do. I win.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I own you. You came right back to me mocking of you because you yearn to be respected. It's what you've never achieved in life. Now begone like you said you'd do. I win.

The delusional rantings of a child

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The delusional rantings of a child Another post proving I own your soul.

Darth Vader is the most popular Star Wars character ever. Something Kylo will never be.

Just another point in the favor of Vader.

Originally posted by playa1258
Darth Vader is the most popular Star Wars character ever. Something Kylo will never be.

Just another point in the favor of Vader. Making my declaration in support of Kylo even more impactful. You're a lemming and agree with the masses. I am individual who thinks for myself you cave dweller.

You thinking for yourself doesn't make you appear any less dumb when this is one of those instances where the masses ARE the masses for a reason :up :

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You thinking for yourself doesn't make you appear any less dumb when this is one of those instances where the masses ARE the masses for a reason :up : Most do not think for themselves such as yourself. Way to applaud mediocrity you turd.


That deserves a real thumbs up you banned pile of excrement. You are an idiot.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Most do not think for themselves such as yourself. Way to applaud mediocrity you turd.


That deserves a real thumbs up you banned pile of excrement. You are an idiot.



Boohoo, the petulant child continues crying

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Boohoo, the petulant child continues crying You can't even properly execute a thumbs up. You are incompetent and a joke.

Vader trashed a whole rebel army. Kylo stopped a blaster bolt.

What is more impressive?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You can't even properly execute a thumbs up. You are incompetent and a joke.

Keep the butthurt alive

Originally posted by playa1258
Vader trashed a whole rebel army. Kylo stopped a blaster bolt.

What is more impressive? Vader was worked over by Tano, Luke Skywalker, and barely stalemated an aged and shitty Kenobi. I laugh at that shitty army. Hell, even Ezra and Kanan bested him. He's pathetic.

Kylo killed his father and resisted the pull of the light. Vader failed the dark side.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader was worked over by Tano, Luke Skywalker, and barely stalemated an aged and shitty Kenobi. I laugh at that shitty army. Hell, even Ezra and Kanan bested him. He's pathetic.

Kylo killed his father and resisted the pull of the light. Vader failed the dark side.
I wouldn't say killing your father is something to admire...

Originally posted by Kurk
I wouldn't say killing your father is something to admire... That is because you lack the determination to do what is necessary but not easy.


Ren is definitely better than Vader.

The one who wasn't a shitty rip off of my favourite character.

Note: I actually like Kylo as a character, definitely among the best in canon, complex and interesting with a well crafted arc, good acting and a connection with him as a character I don't have with many.

But he can't touch the original child of Han or Vader, he never could.

I know Kylo's the best of the new characters, but he's just so damn ugly.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
I know Kylo's the best of the new characters, but he's just so damn ugly. That is what makes him even better. He is so hideous and his hands are so big they are alien like. I am really excited to see what an older, more polished Ren is capable of in episode 9.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
I know Kylo's the best of the new characters, but he's just so damn ugly.


Im convinced hes actually the incest product of Luke and Leia.

Vader is the chosen one, his accolades and abilities shown across canon film, comics TV shows and games put his feats well beyond Rens at this time

Vader is Starwars.
Kylo is Disney fanfic.

Originally posted by relentless1
Vader is the chosen one, his accolades and abilities shown across canon film, comics TV shows and games put his feats well beyond Rens at this time


Kylo only has one cool showing which was in his first few minutes of screen time. Freezing the blaster bolt after being fired.

But His training is a joke next to Vaders who was rigorously trained for over a decade by the Jedi at their peak.

Vader is stomping in the polls, as 5 of Ren's votes are also trolls.

Vader's superiority is cemented. Long live the King.

I chose wisely.

You chose an autist, who never touched a girl because you see yourself in him?

Originally posted by Psychotron
You chose an autist, who never touched a girl because you see yourself in him? If you think touching a girl is amazing then bow down he brought the ***** back to life. That is something not touching a girls skin though Vaders skin had to be protected at all times. If you touched him you might kill the poor thing.

Definitely Vader.

But Kylo/Ben was far and away the best and most interesting character in the ST.

Originally posted by Galan007
Definitely Vader.

But Kylo/Ben was far and away the best and most interesting character in the ST. Why do you prefer Vader?

Primarily because there's SO much content surrounding Vader in canon that has advanced his characterization massively(in a good way.)

Flip side, Kylo's overall character-building in the ST took a huge backseat to Rey's. I still like Kylo for sure(he was the ST's only real redeeming quality, imo), but he just didn't get enough limelight for me to put him above Vader as a personal favorite.

Originally posted by Galan007
Primarily because there's SO much content surrounding Vader in canon that has advanced his characterization massively(in a good way.)

Flip side, Kylo's overall character-building in the ST took a huge backseat to Rey's. I still like Kylo for sure(he was the ST's only real redeeming quality, imo), but he just didn't get enough limelight for me to put him above Vader as a personal favorite. Stick to the films only then I know Disney says the books count but I definitely do not think in reality the directors care at all. I know their policy but if it was films only would the answer still be Vader?



It really was about Ren and Rey. I typically side with the antagonist or the villain so not surprising here.

I thought Kylo would be my favourite character by the end of TROS. But the movie didn't really expand on Kylo that much, he felt kinda less important compared to TLJ/TFA.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Stick to the films only then I know Disney says the books count but I definitely do not think in reality the directors care at all. I know their policy but if it was films only would the answer still be Vader?



It really was about Ren and Rey. I typically side with the antagonist or the villain so not surprising here. It's all part of the same canon now.

But films only it would still be Vader. I just think his overall characterization was better done in the OT than Kylo's was in the ST.

Yeah, gonna have to agree with everyone else here. I love Kylo, I really do. My favorite character in the ST, easily.

But Vader is just more...iconic? Is that the right word? He leaves such a lasting impression on you with that intimidating voice and daunting figure. He commands respect and exudes power. And he's got the talent to back it up too, since he's pretty much the best at everything.

And that's not even mentioning his emotional journey from desperate jedi to heartless sith.

Kylo, by comparison, just isn't as memorable. He's a great character and all, with a compelling story, personality, etc. But he lacks Vader's...charisma as a villain, let's just say. And his story isn't as emotional, either. Not for me, anyway.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you think touching a girl is amazing then bow down he brought the ***** back to life. That is something not touching a girls skin though Vaders skin had to be protected at all times. If you touched him you might kill the poor thing.

He sacrificed his life to save a girl that beat him up and stole his family legacy. All for a kiss. Total simp move. Vader was a chad who banged the Queen of Naboo and had two badass kids.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's all part of the same canon now.

But films only it would still be Vader. I just think his overall characterization was better done in the OT than Kylo's was in the ST. I know they say it but I do not believe it. Directors and films play by their own rules.

Fair enough. Preference is preference no point in arguing.

Originally posted by Psychotron
He sacrificed his life to save a girl that beat him up and stole his family legacy. All for a kiss. Total simp move. Vader was a chad who banged the Queen of Naboo and had two badass kids. Yes, he connected with her. Kylo surpassed Vader in terms of power, accomplishments, and dark side. Vader lost the gal he went to the dark side to save. He lived with regret as a burnt husk. If you think that is awesome then you ignore the intention of Anakin Skywalker. Glad he procreated it led to Ben Solo and Lukes mishandlings helped create Kylo Ren.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Yeah, gonna have to agree with everyone else here. I love Kylo, I really do. My favorite character in the ST, easily.

But Vader is just more...iconic? Is that the right word? He leaves such a lasting impression on you with that intimidating voice and daunting figure. He commands respect and exudes power. And he's got the talent to back it up too, since he's pretty much the best at everything.

And that's not even mentioning his emotional journey from desperate jedi to heartless sith.

Kylo, by comparison, just isn't as memorable. He's a great character and all, with a compelling story, personality, etc. But he lacks Vader's...charisma as a villain, let's just say. And his story isn't as emotional, either. Not for me, anyway. Vader is not the best at everything. The rest might be your feelings on the character which are different than my own. Vader was 2 dimensional in the Ot films. It worked at the time but there is not much to him save the voice and body movement. We are devoid of his emotions during the films due to the mask hiding his facial expressions. Kylo showed the conflict in his motives from the beginning on when we barely even have a faint of conflict in Vader during rotj through Luke not Vader.

I love Kylo but Vader is better in almost every way.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
I love Kylo but Vader is better in almost every way. What ways?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, he connected with her. Kylo surpassed Vader in terms of power, accomplishments, and dark side.

Lmao. Vader TKs AT-AT walkers casually and is the greatest Jedi killer in history. Ren has nothing on that. What's his best accomplishment? Killing a couple of padawans? Pathetic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader lost the gal he went to the dark side to save. He lived with regret as a burnt husk.

At least he lived long enough to kill Palpatine and save his son. Ren was discarded by the Emperor like a piece of trash and Rey had to save the day on her own. On the other hand, Kylo sacrificed himself a woman that stole his family name and legacy, that his own uncle and mother loved more than him.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Lmao. Vader TKs AT-AT walkers casually and is the greatest Jedi killer in history. Ren has nothing on that. What's his best accomplishment? Killing a couple of padawans? Pathetic.



At least he lived long enough to kill Palpatine and save his son. Ren was discarded by the Emperor like a piece of trash and Rey had to save the day on her own. On the other hand, Kylo sacrificed himself a woman that stole his family name and legacy, that his own uncle and mother loved more than him. Not true. No. He only killed Kenobi who wanted to die. Ren was there as the final Skywalker to save the girl who brought down the emperor. Vaders death is made even more less relevant by this final film. Rens actions resulted in the death of both of Anakins kids. Ren never fought the emperor it was Ben. Ben survived the fall Palpatine did not. Ben saved a life Anakin just died without ever truly stopping the emperor. Disney has truly supplanted the ot in terms of relevance and Skywalkers. They ended what Lucas began their way.



Kylo Ren can force push lightsabers energy back. Freeze bolts of energy. He truly is amazing. Best Skywalker. Ever. Saved the best for last.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Not true. No. He only killed Kenobi who wanted to die. Ren was there as the final Skywalker to save the girl who brought down the emperor. Vaders death is made even more less relevant by this final film. Rens actions resulted in the death of both of Anakins kids. Ren never fought the emperor it was Ben. Ben survived the fall Palpatine did not. Ben saved a life Anakin just died without ever truly stopping the emperor. Disney has truly supplanted the ot in terms of relevance and Skywalkers. They ended what Lucas began their way.



Kylo Ren can force push lightsabers energy back. Freeze bolts of energy. He truly is amazing. Best Skywalker. Ever. Saved the best for last.

Vader killed more Jedi than Kenobi. Shows how little you know about Star Wars.

Yeah, Ren was Rey's sidekick. What a pathetic beta b!tch.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Vader killed more Jedi than Kenobi. Shows how little you know about Star Wars.

Yeah, Ren was Rey's sidekick. What a pathetic beta b!tch. No one of note in his comic adventures. Ren dominated Rey the girl who ended Palpatine forever not Vaders empty sacrifice. Ren beat her and saved her. Truly a legend.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No one of note in his comic adventures. Kirak Infil'a?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader is not the best at everything.
He's said to be the best pilot in the Galaxy, an ingenious mechanic and strategist, and is one of the most powerful sith lords to ever live.

How do you know Vader can't? Just cause we haven't seen him do it doesn't mean he can't, he just never needed to. He can absorb them into his hand, you know.

Immortal Rur, Lord Momin, The Black Bishop, the Jedi of Akkresker Jail, several giant beasts (in Vader Immortal, and a modified rancor in his 2015 comic) and even armies (in Age of Rebllion - Darth Vader).

I don't understand why you seem to like all the characters you percieve as powerful and dislike any you don't.
Also, he only dominated Rey before she had any real training. By the time she defeated Palpy (using the strength of all jedi, not her own), she's Kylo's equal.

How about his competence, and memorability as a villain?

He's shown to be ruthless, cold, calculating, and almost emotionless. He uses the mask to exacerbate that impression on others, but it's fairly clear that that's what he's really like.

I fail to see how this makes him a better character.

https://youtu.be/en8bh60K7m8?t=79
^You really can't sense any conflict in him here?
https://youtu.be/lbbG02LB7g0?t=63
^or here?

Ren is a trash character and always will be.

Originally posted by Galan007
Kirak Infil'a? Yes. These guys are only known to nerds. Mainstream characters are films only.

Originally posted by Zentrex
He's said to be the best pilot in the Galaxy, an ingenious mechanic and strategist, and is one of the most powerful sith lords to ever live.

Luke shows him up and Han Solo is better imo as well. Vader is good just not the best. Yes one of not the most powerful or the best. He never lived up to his potential.


I know he has not and you need evidence to support him being able to do so. Ren has superior film feats. It is ok to accept it.

He dominated Rey in this last film after Lukes training. Kylo was always more skilled just was wounded and unbalanced due to killing his father.


Vader is more popular I agree but competence wise he was not that great. Never seduced Luke, never saved Padme, never usurped the emperor as Darth Vader it was Anakin because of his son.

He is cold and calculating. Some just not enough due to not seeing his facial expressions.

What makes one better or not is entirely subjective so it is nor worth arguing.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Luke shows him up and Han Solo is better imo as well. Vader is good just not the best. Yes one of not the most powerful or the best. He never lived up to his potential.

When I said "best," I didn't mean the single best, just exceptional enough that he could be expected to lead any team, whether that be a team of scientists, pilots, military strategists, propaganda communications, bounty hunters, etc. since he'd be expert in their operations.



I'm confused as to why you think Force Stasis is a unique ability. I'm fairly certain the implication was that it's quite common, which was proven in "Fallen Order" when even the average Padawan Cal Kestis performed it.

Also, what makes you think it's a "superior" feat? We have no idea as to how easy or difficult it is to do something like this. For all we know, it could be (and should be) as easy as lifting any other object.

I'm not exactly comfortable with you ignoring the comics, because the new movies were written at the same time as the comics; a time where we can and do show superhero-esque feats with the force. The Originals were made at a time when that was not as easy, therefore we see very little use of the force.



Oh. Haven't seen it, so I wouldn't know. Touche.



Not seducing Luke is more a testament to Luke's willpower than Vader's incompetency. Padme had already died by the time he became competent, and it's hardly fair to ignore someone's accomplishments because they couldn't usurp the most powerful sith lord to ever live from his seat as the Emperor of the Galaxy.

He's competent in that he can get whatever job he's assigned done efficiently. In ESB, he tracks the rebels down to Hoth, manages to have them escape with little more than their lives, successfully tricks Solo and crew, and lures Luke into a trap which would have worked if Luke had joined him. If we're counting EU, the examples are endless.



I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Maybe he doesn't have that effect on you, but to me, the lack of facial expressions has always amplified his ability to express himself rather than taken away from it.


Fair enough. But you did creat this discussion simply to decide which character was "better," right?

Originally posted by Zentrex
When I said "best," I didn't mean the single best, just exceptional enough that he could be expected to lead any team, whether that be a team of scientists, pilots, military strategists, propaganda communications, bounty hunters, etc. since he'd be expert in their operations.
Just as Luke is great at everything just as Ren is all the same. Excellent pilots, fighters, force users. Nothing separates Vader from Luke or Ren in this regard.

It is not just the feat itself which was awesome but the coupling of him freezing the bolt and the reflexes to freeze it so quickly it could not travel far. Vader gets hit by multiple bolts from Han showing his reflexes are not on par plus we never see him demonstrate the ability. Ren also froze his opponents body at the same time. In terms of success far more effective than Vader and his reaction to Han.
You can believe they matter makes no difference to me at all. The directors and film makers truly do not care. That is the reality of it. Yoda resisting mountains of force or whatever dumb thing makes no difference to how he reacts to lifting an x wing in the films. Sell the books to hardcore fans but in reality they are just eu g canon stuff.

You cannot excuse both. He failed in both at the end of the day but yes Luke had resolve. If he had not been beaten by Kenobi and left for dead maybe the idiot could have altered her fate. Vader was a mess at the end of rots. Sidious was killed by a one armed Vader so entirely possible to kill him. When he actually grew a set he did not need two hands or even a light saber to hurl the girly old man to his death. He is not invulnerable. Heck Maul survived being cut in half falling hundreds of feet despite being less powerful.
Eu is fantasy so who cares. Yes, he tracks them down and loses Luke. Well done losing a guy you just beat despite having the resources of the empire. Is this not Vaders fault either? Luke has to go to Vader at the end.

Not reading a persons facial expressions does not create more emotion regardless of you believing it so. You might think its cool but it does not amplify anything other than makes us focus solely on his voice inflection to determine his expressions.


Yes, I wanted to praise Ren over Vader for being more evil in relation to Vader and more accomplished.

You saying everything is so vague and could cover cooking, sexual prowess, listening, math, spelling, etc. You used a vague term then act like see Anakin is good st other stuff. You need to be specific not using vague terms.

Luke is a great pilot as evidenced by ANH. Certainly comparable to Vader. Kylo shows his piloting skills in the films when he uses the tie fighter. Does someone need to say he is great for it to be so? As far as tactics go Vader has shown to be downright idiotic. Points to Vader trying to jump over Kenobi who pleaded with him not to try it. Kylo still had the resistance dead to rights save Lukes galaxy spanning feat of projection.


Being memorable is an opinion you have. Kylo Ren actually achieved killing his master as a bad guy when the opportunity arose Vader sat idly by for decades. He was a servant until his son broke him free out of love not a tactical advantage.

Of course not. I believe only nerds like us even care to argue who wins these guys are just trying to make a great film. Reviewing the evidence shows Rens feat is much better than Vaders in relation. Probably use his light saber to deflect or replicate his response to Han Solo. What is worse for Vader that is how quickly he reacts to someone right in front of him focused solely on Vader whereas Ren reacted to a thief in the night trying to get the drop on him outside his line of vision.


No, the technology is still there to show laser swords or reactions. We see in Star Trek with data super-speed a much faster reaction despite the pitiful budget of a tv show. We also have Vader in Rogue One thus eliminating your excuse since this was made a few years back. Vader is not just the original three films he has Rogue One and a battle scene of just his power on display. In comics the power levels could not be further away. Look at yoda struggling with debris in AotC or x wings but in comics he is manipulating much greater things. Comics really do not matter at all.

The idea of Vader not the literal translation of Vader. If Tom Brady idolizes Joe Montana because he literally did that does not prove Joe Montana is better just because he was idolized by Tom Brady. We review the evidence, their abilities, tendencies, feats, strengths, deficiencies etc. to determine who is better.

Vader never reached his potential in power due to Kenobi wrecking his body. Ren never had to lose the majority of his body or sacrifice his potential because of anything close to what happened to Vader.


So his worldview itself was so narrow minded you yourself unwittingly stumble upon the sheer idiocy of his thought process. If you cannot correctly anticipate your own sons thought process then you failed. No other way to slice it. If Anakin was not so easily led astray by fear of what might happen maybe the guy would not have been used by Sidious for decades after betraying the Jedi. Vader was weak hence him turning to the dark side. He betrayed them not the other way around.

Show his cold resolve. Facial expressions are not there just to convey inner conflict but all emotions. You are acting as if you can see the guys face and he is not hidden under a mask then it takes away which is so utterly absurd. Your opinion is narrow minded just like Vaders world view.