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Ok, so... Kreia states that Tulak Hord is the greatest saber duelist of the ancient sith, right?

By this point, Exar Kun was already described as an ancient sith, and we already have the other powerful ancient sith, such as Ajunta Pall. Karness Muur, Marka Ragnos, and Naga Sadow (but the last two are hardly known for saber prowess).

Do we take Kreia's words to heart?

Or do we rely on Kun's superior feats? (that Kreia should be FULLY aware of, considering her age.)

Meh Kun rapes

Kun wins.

Kun.

Tulak, I guess

Kun.

Actual feats and objective hype and accolades > Subjective lip-service.

Hord isn't any slouch though.

Being able to single-handedly fight his way through 1000 Jedi says a lot, topped with the fact that Kreia was around when Kun was ****ing shit up, she knows full well what Kun is capable of, yet boasts about Hord's abilities openly.

Kun should be able to take this, but I can see Hord winning as well. There's no universe in which Kun wins this easily.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kun.

Actual feats and objective hype and accolades > Subjective lip-service.

How the fvck are we supposed to know?

Given that Tulak is explicitly the greatest lightsaber duelist evah by a woman who knows something of both says a bit. That Kun didn't hatemurder a thousand Jedi in physical combat says more.

/debate.

Oh, goodie. Pre-peak Vader is > RotS Yoda as well because Jax said Vader was the most powerful Force user he ever knew, which would include Yoda.

Point is; Traya's opinion is just her opinions, not factual, gospel.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Oh, goodie. Pre-peak Vader is > RotS Yoda as well because Jax said Vader was the most powerful Force user he ever knew, which would include Yoda.

Point is; Traya's opinion is just her opinions, not factual, gospel. Did Jax ever see Yoda in combat?

No.

Most people never get to see Yoda in combat.

Whereas what Kun was doing, he advertised his actions and made sure he was known.

Just as what Hord did was well-known, and documented.

You don't get a reputation like that by sitting around and doing nothing.

Based on what we DO know of Hord, what Kreia said doesn't sound that far-fetched, given that anyone who ever talks about him gives him the highest praises.

Raskta Lsu > Sidious confirmed.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Raskta Lsu > Sidious confirmed. Thats a reference I probably don't get.

We can't say for a fact he hasn't but at very least he sense his power, and know of his exploits and rep in the Jedi Order. With that all in mind, he still felt a Vader that was vastly pre-primed, was superior to Yoda. We all know this is utter hogwash, as Yoda would handily defeat a prime Vader, let alone a "shell of him former self" version.

The rest of your post is rambling, that doesn't have anything to actually do with what I said for the most part.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
We can't say for a fact he hasn't but at very least he sense his power, and know of his exploits and rep in the Jedi Order. With that all in mind, he still felt a Vader that was vastly pre-primed, was superior to Yoda. We all know this is utter hogwash, as Yoda would handily defeat a prime Vader, let alone a "shell of him former self" version.

The rest of your post is rambling, that doesn't have anything to actually do with what I said for the most part. Jedi can hide their power.

Luke usually never reveals his true power.

Proof all Jedi hide their power?

And of course Luke does, but that's Luke. He has specifically made note to conceal/hold his power back, because he's afraid of falling to the dark side.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Proof all Jedi hide their power?

And of course Luke does, but that's Luke. He has specifically made note to conceal/hold his power back, because he's afraid of falling to the dark side. So wouldn't Yoda do the same?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Thats a reference I probably don't get.

She was by all accounts the greatest saber duelist of the Bane Era Sith War. Never lost a duel in any of the battles she faced during the years and years the war dragged on. I'm not sure exactly what he was implying with her except that maybe because of how the description was written of her in the novel and the poor fleshing out of details you could choose to infer certain things about her ability if you were so inclined. Personally from what's written of her she is one of the greatest duelist to ever wreck face and in the thread asking for the greatest not shown in any of the films I put her up there, but that trilogy really lacks in some ways.

Anyway, the problem with Hord is the same as with Kas'im and Lsu: in the end there's not enough detailed context given for his actual prowess. There's no concrete description of any of what he did, only bullet points of it. Maybe one day we'll get some canon novels or new legends that gives a better account.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
She was by all accounts the greatest saber duelist of the Bane Era Sith War. Never lost a duel in any of the battles she faced during the years and years the war dragged on. I'm not sure exactly what he was implying with her except that maybe because of how the description was written of her in the novel and the poor fleshing out of details you could choose to infer certain things about her ability if you were so inclined. Personally from what's written of her she is one of the greatest duelist to ever wreck face and in the thread asking for the greatest not shown in any of the films I put her up there, but that trilogy really lacks in some ways.

Anyway, the problem with Hord is the same as with Kas'im and Lsu: in the end there's not enough detailed context given for his actual prowess. There's no concrete description of any of what he did, only bullet points of it. Maybe one day we'll get some canon novels or new legends that gives a better account. Khem Val fought Hord and lost, and saw what he had done first hand.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
So wouldn't Yoda do the same?

No, because Yoda isn't anywhere near as shook as Luke is from the dark side of the Force. The latter is especially extra precautions, because of his father being Darth Vader, and him falling to the dark side of in Dark Empire.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Khem Val fought Hord and lost, and saw what he had done first hand.
Which is again paltry compared to what we actually get to see of Revan, Vitiate, HoT, Darth Nox, etc, not to mention Kun both as described in codices and novels featuring him, and furthermore is still only exactly what I said, bullet points of his abilities. Hord's feats are never showcased in a way that gives them the context that they need to argue in a valid way that he could be a match for Kun.

I agree that what is given suggests that he was a brutally competent duelist and practitioner of the dark side and have said so when speaking about what Kreia references with him, but I also had to admit that it's not the most solid place to argue from.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Which is again paltry compared to what we actually get to see of Revan, Vitiate, HoT, Darth Nox, etc, not to mention Kun both as described in codices and novels featuring him, and furthermore is still only exactly what I said, bullet points of his abilities. Hord's feats are never showcased in a way that gives them the context that they need to argue in a valid way that he could be a match for Kun.

I agree that what is given suggests that he was a brutally competent duelist and practitioner of the dark side and have said so when speaking about what Kreia references with him, but I also had to admit that it's not the most solid place to argue from. Who cares if they're never showcased.

Eyewitness accounts should be good enough.

When you watch someone perform a feat irl, you see that happening.

Khem Val SAW Tulak Hord do these things with his own two eyes and recounts those events to Darth Nox.

He saw him take down 1,000 Jedi.

He was beaten by Hord, he DID see Hord pull an Endar Spire-sized ship out of the sky.

There is no reason we shouldn't believe him, and his accolades match up just fine with Kreia's claims.

We have no reason not to believe either of them, or even assume they're exaggerating the feats.

Again, I didn't say that what is spoken by Val is fictitious in any way, I said that because we have only those brief descriptions there isn't good context from which to work in giving merit one way or another as to how Hord would fare against any other top duelist/Force practitioner. Your argument has nothing to do with what I stated.

This would be a great battle to debate if one side didn't have to base its position on a few blurbs. There's just not enough clear description of the circumstances in which Hord did the things he did, nor of the events themselves. We have no context for his speed with the saber, for the kinds of direct attacks he could withstand, how many combatants he could directly face at once, etc. In theory he should be one of the best duelists ever, but the actual evidence of what he could do is beyond poor.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Again, I didn't say that what is spoken by Val is fictitious in any way, I said that because we have only those brief descriptions there isn't good context from which to work in giving merit one way or another as to how Hord would fare against any other top duelist/Force practitioner. Your argument has nothing to do with what I stated.

This would be a great battle to debate if one side didn't have to base its position on a few blurbs. There's just not enough clear description of the circumstances in which Hord did the things he did, nor of the events themselves. We have no context for his speed with the saber, for the kinds of direct attacks he could withstand, how many combatants he could directly face at once, etc. In theory he should be one of the best duelists ever, but the actual evidence of what he could do is beyond poor.
Lmfao. ^

Hord being the best of the Ancient Sith doesn't make him the best ever, or better than Kun. And taking the quote at face value to begin with is being generous to the most Ancient-wanky source of all time.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Hord being the best of the Ancient Sith doesn't make him the best ever, or better than Kun. And taking the quote at face value to begin with is being generous to the most Ancient-wanky source of all time. Why shouldn't we take them at face value?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Hord being the best of the Ancient Sith doesn't make him the best ever, or better than Kun. And taking the quote at face value to begin with is being generous to the most Ancient-wanky source of all time. No one ever said he was the best ever. That goes to Ragnos or Kun.

However, better then Kun in pure sabers is definitely a possibility.

People who need clarification from quotes by using feats, are not worth debating against.

You don't NEED feats for an argument, and even if we do, Tulak Hord has feats in the way of eyewitness accounts.

He beat Khem Val, beat 1000 Jedi, and pulled an Endar Spire-sized ship from the sky.

You, or anyone else, has no reason not to believe those feats.

Hord did not take down 1,000 Jedi alone, he had an entire army supporting him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hord did not take down 1,000 Jedi alone, he had an entire army supporting him. Khem Val said "single-handedly".

Among Hord's greatest triumphs were the battles of Yn and Chabosh. With an army of dark side warriors and his faithful Dashade assassin at his side, he annihilated the rebels who defied the expansion of the Sith Empire and went on to conquer the Dromund system-setting the stage for Dromund Kaas to eventually become capital of the Empire.

http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/tomb-of-tulak-hord/1408/

And Khem only says he broke the Yn siege single-handedly, not the Battle of Chabosh, which involved the army of 1,000 Jedi.

It's only really verifiable that he took part in a large battle and kicked ass, and was renowned as a warrior.

I must say, I do enjoy the double standards on the part of the TOR camp; were a movie era character given this much leniency the debater in question would be hung, drawn and quartered.

Tbh if we take Hord's hype at face value it pretty much puts him in the top 5 duelist's ever

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Tbh if we take Hord's hype at face value it pretty much puts him in the top 5 duelist's ever We have no reason to not believe them.

Actually, people have come up with very good reasons as to why they don't believe any of the hype.

Those reasons are:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Among Hord's greatest triumphs were the battles of Yn and Chabosh. With an army of dark side warriors and his faithful Dashade assassin at his side, he annihilated the rebels who defied the expansion of the Sith Empire and went on to conquer the Dromund system-setting the stage for Dromund Kaas to eventually become capital of the Empire.

http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/tomb-of-tulak-hord/1408/

And Khem only says he broke the Yn siege single-handedly, not the Battle of Chabosh, which involved the army of 1,000 Jedi.

Chabosh was a battle with an army, Yn was done by him single-handedly. Nobody suggested otherwise. That quote doesn't change that.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
We have no reason to not believe them.

Actually, people have come up with very good reasons as to why they don't believe any of the hype.

Those reasons are:

The reasons are that you can't support anything with a bunch of bullet points. Let's look at how reasonable debates go on here when they're actually debates.

Poster A makes points. Poster B makes points. Poster A or B takes the time to reply to submissions of the other poster and expounds upon them. Poster A or B also then solidify their stance by giving additional details of the event in question by presenting more information from the reading, episode, film, etc. For Hord, we have no additional evidence to make a worthwhile debate, therefore making him a horrid subject to debate on.

As I've already said in this thread, it's the very reason that arguing for Kas'im's overall ability in the mythos is somewhat difficult, because he is said to likely be greater than Hord, but we have zero detailed descriptions of Hord in actual combat. All we have are suggestions from Kreia about his ability and excerpts from Khem Val. There is no solid foundation from which to discuss what Hord was or was not capable of in the Force, and there is no context from which to draw a conclusion about his peak combat prowess. Bane disintegrated people with the Force; Sidious created massive Force Storms, Nihilus sucked planets dry; Vitiate yadda yadda yadda'd; Tulak Hord killed a lot of Jedi in vague circumstances in which there are almost no details given, and unlike Kun, we have no expansive first-hand descriptions of the events as they occurred.

For Kun, anyone citing his abilities can quote page after page after page detailing his skills at peak; for Hord, no such luck. I've explained this multiple times in the thread in an entirely objective way, so if you choose to ignore the facts as they are I guess what's already been posted will have to suffice.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
The reasons are that you can't support anything with a bunch of bullet points. Let's look at how reasonable debates go on here when they're actually debates.

Poster A makes points. Poster B makes points. Poster A or B takes the time to reply to submissions of the other poster and expounds upon them. Poster A or B also then solidify their stance by giving additional details of the event in question by presenting more information from the reading, episode, film, etc. For Hord, we have no additional evidence to make a worthwhile debate, therefore making him a horrid subject to debate on.

As I've already said in this thread, it's the very reason that arguing for Kas'im's overall ability in the mythos is somewhat difficult, because he is said to likely be greater than Hord, but we have zero detailed descriptions of Hord in actual combat. All we have are suggestions from Kreia about his ability and excerpts from Khem Val. There is no solid foundation from which to discuss what Hord was or was not capable of in the Force, and there is no context from which to draw a conclusion about his peak combat prowess. Bane disintegrated people with the Force; Sidious created massive Force Storms, Nihilus sucked planets dry; Vitiate yadda yadda yadda'd; Tulak Hord killed a lot of Jedi in vague circumstances in which there are almost no details given, and unlike Kun, we have no expansive first-hand descriptions of the events as they occurred.

For Kun, anyone citing his abilities can quote page after page after page detailing his skills at peak; for Hord, no such luck. I've explained this multiple times in the thread in an entirely objective way, so if you choose to ignore the facts as they are I guess what's already been posted will have to suffice. Kas'im above Hord????

Wtf...

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Why shouldn't we take them at face value?

Well, Hord's supremacy among the Ancient Sith is relative, so I suppose that's worth taking into account. The rest of it from KotOR II, not so much, since the Ancients' powers are rather exaggerated there.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Kas'im above Hord????

Wtf...

As a duelist, yes, that's what's said in PoD, that at the time Kas'im is likely the greatest duelist to have ever lived.

Regardless, we have much more in the way of 'expansive' description as to what Kas'im has done than Hord, and even Kas'im isn't really given enough detail to give strong standing for his place in the pantheon of Sith. That's an aside simply used to further the point of this thread: that Hord does not have enough written/shown of him to accurately say where he stands.

That was Bane's opinion. And Bane hasn't seen anyone other than the Academy trainees. Bane was also referring to a technical sense. With respects to innate ability, the third-person perspective of the novel directly states that Bane's strength in the Force gave him the advantage.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
As a duelist, yes, that's what's said in PoD, that at the time Kas'im is likely the greatest duelist to have ever lived.

Regardless, we have much more in the way of 'expansive' description as to what Kas'im has done than Hord, and even Kas'im isn't really given enough detail to give strong standing for his place in the pantheon of Sith. That's an aside simply used to further the point of this thread: that Hord does not have enough written/shown of him to accurately say where he stands. LOL YUP!!!!

10/10 KAS'IM BEST DUELIST EVERYBODY!!

The thing is, Kas'im doesn't have anything to back that up with, Tulak, despite never being seen directly, does have the accolades and hype, to put him in the top 10, if not, the top 5.

Eyewitness accounts and such, all the hype from multiple people.

We actually have pages of Kas'im at least doing some actual combat with his sabers. We have nothing but vague speak from Kreia and Val on Hord.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That was Bane's opinion. And Bane hasn't seen anyone other than the Academy trainees. Bane was also referring to a technical sense. With respects to innate ability, the third-person perspective of the novel directly states that Bane's strength in the Force gave him the advantage.

To be fair, Bane also had some decent knowledge on a lot of the ancient Sith at the time.

Not nearly enough to make any sort of call like that, lol. And even then, he was hardly sure of Kas'im's supremacy - he says something to the effect of "best in the galaxy, perhaps ever".

Exar's the greatest duelist from his era probably up until the PT era. So yeah he wins pretty handily.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not nearly enough to make any sort of call like that, lol. And even then, he was hardly sure of Kas'im's supremacy - he says something to the effect of "best in the galaxy, perhaps ever".

Eh, but for him to think of that despite knowing the hype surrounding Naga Sadow and Revan, I'd say that is a pretty good accolade.

Inaccurate, of course, but pretty good.

Originally posted by MythLord
Eh, but for him to think of that despite knowing the hype surrounding Naga Sadow and Revan, I'd say that is a pretty good accolade.

Inaccurate, of course, but pretty good.

Depends. He appeared to know nothing of Vitiate's Empire, which is where the Sadow hype is. Revan... mostly as a legend, not necessarily as a bladesman.

Originally posted by carthage
Exar's the greatest duelist from his era probably up until the PT era. So yeah he wins pretty handily. Not according to Kreia and Avellone.

She only states that he's the best of the Ancient Dark Lords, which Kun is exempt from.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She only states that he's the best of the Ancient Dark Lords, which Kun is exempt from. Kun is considered one of the Ancient Lords by several sources.

Not by KotOR II, lol. It's clearly referring to the Dark Lords who were interred on Korriban. Kun was around a mere 45 years before the events of KotOR II. That's hardly ancient.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not by KotOR II, lol. It's clearly referring to the Dark Lords who were interred on Korriban. Kun was around a mere 45 years before the events of KotOR II. That's hardly ancient. Actually, Traya doesn't even say the Ancients, she just says greatest of the "Sith Lords".

So yeah, up to that point, Tulak is the best duelist, confirmed by Kreia and Chris Avellone.

Exar.

Oh, and the whole Yn and Chabosh situation? That happened well before his peak, he broke the sieges of Yn single-handedly before he was even close to his full power.