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The 2003 clone wars feat was retconned by the Jedi Path stating that Yoda couldn't lift more than 5 muntuur stones, this is supported by the foggy window theory and the convictions of George Lucas - G-canon.

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11126/111267273/4963444-5998116432-43509.jpg



So basically, Yoda is not some telekinetic powerhouse like many assume... thoughts?

I believe the total weight of the Muntuur stones is known and it's only like 15 tons or something as well.

TK feats for Exar Kun that match lifting 5 Muntuur Stones?

Yoda's commentary in the books is from ca. 115BBY per Jason Fry. The Clone Wars microseries takes place from 22-19BBY. No retcon.

Ziggy posting sources everyone's known for years as if it's some undiscovered treasure trove of antiwank.

How disappointing

The text indicates that Yoda's TK abilty has declined with age Tempest, but somehow you think that an even older does better? Laughable.

Originally posted by Selenial
Ziggy posting sources everyone's known for years as if it's some undiscovered treasure trove of antiwank.

How disappointing

Did I claim to have introduced something new?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The text indicates that Yoda's TK abilty has declined with age Tempest, but somehow you think that an even older does better? Laughable.

That's your interpretation of the text. And quite a clumsy one at that. It may have been that the return of the Sith prompted Yoda to hone his abilities again. Regardless, you've failed to prove the retcon. You've failed, my son. Per usual.

So his TK improved dozens of times over despite being even older? Kek.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So his TK improved dozens of times over despite being even older? Kek.

Your personal incredulity is not an effective counterargument.

Your butthurt, though, is as pleasing as ever.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So his TK improved dozens of times over despite being even older? Kek.

I guess mmm

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4770324-5121103951-Ke1Jn.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4770325-6473133858-vpw2x.gif

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I guess mmm

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4770324-5121103951-Ke1Jn.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4770325-6473133858-vpw2x.gif

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your personal incredulity is not an effective counterargument.

Your butthurt, though, is as pleasing as ever.

You saying that isn't one either, nor is it an explanation for the how on earth your argument makes the slightest bit of sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You saying that isn't one either, nor is it an explanation for the how on earth your argument makes the slightest bit of sense.

Ziggy claimed the Clone Wars microseries was retconned by The Jedi Path. He's wrong.

Though I'm not obligated to provide an explanation, I generously offered one anyway: that in the century between Yoda's remarks and the feats in question, he underwent a significant boost in his powers.

Whether or not you find that plausible is irrelevant. Ziggy's wrong.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's your interpretation of the text. And quite a clumsy one at that.

It's the most logical interpretation Tempest, Yoda says he can't lift more than 5 stones since he passed 700, why would he mention age if it hadn't been a declining factor? So he likely grows even weaker with an extra 200 years on his clock, something not entirely unsupported by feats, given that he needed to deactivate his lightsaber just to lift a small column of metal:


http://www.facegarage.com/content/uploads/ytToGIF_afgacergea958201.gif

yoda takes like 15 seconds to throw a senate pod in rots guys r u serious rn

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
It's the most logical interpretation Tempest,

Clearly not, Ziggy, since Yoda telekinetically manipulates far greater mass and weight in the century after he wrote those comments:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4770324-5121103951-Ke1Jn.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4770325-6473133858-vpw2x.gif

You've yet to demonstrate a retcon. You should consider actually doing so in your next post, or I'm afraid I'll have to accept your concession.

And remember: you've dedicated your entire career at KMC to lowballing PT characters. You had one job, Ziggy. Just one. And yet...

https://media.giphy.com/media/FiRuhMWt3kmpG/giphy.gif

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ziggy claimed the Clone Wars microseries was retconned by The Jedi Path. He's wrong.

Though I'm not obligated to provide an explanation, I generously offered one anyway: that in the century between Yoda's remarks and the feats in question, he underwent a significant boost in his powers.

Whether or not you find that plausible is irrelevant. Ziggy's wrong.

Nobody claimed you were obligated to do anything. If your explanation is terrible, you don't have to support it. It doesn't cease to be terrible, however. Yoda indicates that he decreased in power as he ages, not improved. Theres nothing stating that the latter is what occurred. Further, the idea that he improved that dramatically so late in his life is absurd, and you know it to be so. Which is why you're dodging the point instead of substantiating how it could possible have occurred.

I don't recall the stones ever being established. They could have weighed that of a moon for all we know.

I believe the heaviest was 5 tons.

You'd have to provide a quote for that.

mmm

Interesting. Looking at the size of those stones, unless they are some super dense material, Yoda lifting the X-Wing in ESB has likely been retconned as well.

Those aren't the actual stones. Those are the mini versions that lesser Jedi practiced on. Read the description below the picture.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nobody claimed you were obligated to do anything. If your explanation is terrible, you don't have to support it. Yoda indicates that he decreased in power as he ages, not improved. Theres nothing stating that the latter is what occurred. Further the idea that he improved that dramatically so late in his life is absurd, and you know it to be so. Which is why you're dodging the point instead of substantiating how it could possible have occurred.



I offered you a perfectly viable explanation to ease your mind. You and Ziggy have failed to make your case and now, with all the grace of a chronic epileptic mid-seizure, attempt to shift the burden of proof to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nobody claimed you were obligated to do anything. If your explanation is terrible, you don't have to support it. It doesn't cease to be terrible, however. Yoda indicates that he decreased in power as he ages, not improved. Theres nothing stating that the latter is what occurred. Further, the idea that he improved that dramatically so late in his life is absurd, and you know it to be so. Which is why you're dodging the point instead of substantiating how it could possible have occurred.

Allow me to give several other explanations then

Yoda had confronted his inner darkness and could call on more of his power because of it.
A Jedi's power relies on mindset, and lifting stones just to lift stones obviously does not exert as much force power as attempting to save a planet.
Yoda's original decrease in power was due to other circumstances that didn't factor into his explanation, since he doesn't outright say it's all down to age.
Yoda's constant battles and focus on a war effort led him to rekindle a stronger connection in the realm of Alter, something a Jedi would rarely have to do during peace time, again coupling with his morality.


I mean, points one and two are literally the only ones you need to answer why he supposedly improved, but hey ho mmm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Clearly not, Ziggy, since Yoda telekinetically manipulates far greater mass and weight in the century after he wrote those comments:

We can not draw conclusions from the 2003 clone wars series, they are completely unusable, as they have been contradicted by the higher sources of canon - the movies - and other material of C-level canon - Jedi Path etc. Not to mention statements made by George Lucas, regarding the 2003 clone wars micro series:

"The way George explained it to me going in was that THE CLONE WARS micro-series was really an experiment to see what kind of audience there was for Star Wars in an animated form.So when we into doing this, I think that, now that George is done with the prequels, he wanted to reestablish the rules a little bit more, like "Mace Windu can't take out hundreds of battle droids by himself, otherwise the arena on Geonosis would've been a wipeout"

The foggy window theory created by LFL officials also supports this.



You're quite right, i have demonstrated around four retcons from different sources.

Originally posted by Selenial
Allow me to give several other explanations then

Yoda had confronted his inner darkness and could call on more of his power because of it.
A Jedi's power relies on mindset, and lifting stones just to lift stones obviously does not exert as much force power as attempting to save a planet.
Yoda's original decrease in power was due to other circumstances that didn't factor into his explanation, since he doesn't outright say it's all down to age.
Yoda's constant battles and focus on a war effort led him to rekindle a stronger connection in the realm of Alter, something a Jedi would rarely have to do during peace time, again coupling with his morality.


I mean, points one and two are literally the only ones you need to answer why he supposedly improved, but hey ho mmm

On behalf of Neph, I must reject those explanations. They make far too much of that sense stuff.

Or, again, he didn't even improve, and the rocks in question are massive.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You'd have to provide a quote for that.

He's right, TBH. Central stone was five tonnes, exteriors were smaller. Each weighed one tonne.

If y'all want to play retcon games though, The Jedi Path was retconned by the fact Dooku casually lifted over fourty tonnes of similar stones, and Yoda is confirmed his superior

Where are these exact weight measurements coming from tho

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Those aren't the actual stones. Those are the mini versions that lesser Jedi practiced on. Read the description below the picture.

Damn.

Originally posted by Selenial
He's right, TBH. Central stone was five tonnes, exteriors were smaller. Each weighed one tonne.

If y'all want to play retcon games though, The Jedi Path was retconned by the fact Dooku casually lifted over fourty tonnes of similar stones, and Yoda is confirmed his superior
I'd need a quote.

Neph, this is just getting pathetic.

You're making me feel pity and that's not an emotion I want to feel at 8:00 in the morning.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
We can not draw conclusions from the 2003 clone wars series, they are completely unusable, as they have been contradicted by the higher sources of canon - the movies - and other material of C-level canon - Jedi Path etc. Not to mention statements made by George Lucas, regarding the 2003 clone wars micro series:

"The way George explained it to me going in was that THE CLONE WARS micro-series was really an experiment to see what kind of audience there was for Star Wars in an animated form.So when we into doing this, I think that, now that George is done with the prequels, he wanted to reestablish the rules a little bit more, like "Mace Windu can't take out hundreds of battle droids by himself, otherwise the arena on Geonosis would've been a wipeout"

The foggy window theory created by LFL officials also supports this.



You're quite right, i have demonstrated around four retcons from different sources.

The microseries is Legends, not canon. So in addition to a clumsy attempt to shift the burden of proof, you're now hinging your argument on a strawman fallacy.

Your quote, by the way, mentions nothing about Yoda manipulating Trade Federation dropships.

I'm sure you did your best, but you missed the mark.

Again.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I offered you a perfectly viable explanation to ease your mind. You and Ziggy have failed to make your case and now, with all the grace of a chronic epileptic mid-seizure, attempt to shift the burden of proof to me.

I'm not making any case other than that yours is shit. Your explanation is not viable and you've failed to establish how it could possibly be so. If you make a terrible argument, it's reasonable for it to be called out as such. If you then fail to substantiate that argument when pressed, then I'm perfectly free to continue to label it as terrible. Don't get pissy just because you can't be asked to try.

Originally posted by Selenial
Allow me to give several other explanations then

Yoda had confronted his inner darkness and could call on more of his power because of it.
A Jedi's power relies on mindset, and lifting stones just to lift stones obviously does not exert as much force power as attempting to save a planet.
Yoda's original decrease in power was due to other circumstances that didn't factor into his explanation, since he doesn't outright say it's all down to age.
Yoda's constant battles and focus on a war effort led him to rekindle a stronger connection in the realm of Alter, something a Jedi would rarely have to do during peace time, again coupling with his morality.


I mean, points one and two are literally the only ones you need to answer why he supposedly improved, but hey ho mmm

Awful explanations all around. None of that is as much of a factor as his aging, which was already affecting him at 700, let alone when he neared 900 and was a mere 2 decades from dying of old age. It's also all speculative. Yoda says that after 700 he can only lift 5 stones. It doesn't say he can only do that when not trying that hard. Suggesting that he'd suddenly get dozens of times stronger just because he wants to harder is ludicrous. Likewise confronting his darkside and having more practise would lead to minor increases, not the insane one we're talking about.

Go back to the drawing board.

Originally posted by Selenial
If y'all want to play retcon games though, The Jedi Path was retconned by the fact Dooku casually lifted over fourty tonnes of similar stones, and Yoda is confirmed his superior

Meh, the weight of those stones is a guess on your part.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Neph, this is just getting pathetic.

You're making me feel pity and that's not an emotion I want to feel at 8:00 in the morning.

What is?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The microseries is Legends, not canon. So in addition to a clumsy attempt to shift the burden of proof, you're now hinging your argument on a strawman fallacy.

Your quote, by the way, mentions nothing about Yoda manipulating Trade Federation dropships.

I'm sure you did your best, but you missed the mark.

Again.

That statement was made before the Legend/Canon split, lol. And it doesn't have to mention all specific feats, the intention of "reestablishing the rules" after the 2003 series is obvious.

Yoda is the also the most powerful Jedi ever, so should the TOR era also be scaled down accordingly? mmm

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'd need a quote.

mmm

Conflicting sources, now that I look into it. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia claims:



But the original source for their weight, Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments from the Rim, claims that:

Originally posted by Selenial
at least

However dubious Tempest's explanation may be, it's still infinitely superior to Neph/Ziggy's, which is literally nonexistent. They offer no explanation - they just tell us to toss away the feats in question and pretend that they never even existed.

Of course, why they choose to discard onscreen feats rather than a line from a sourcebook, we may never know.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not making any case other than that yours is shit. Your explanation is not viable and you've failed to establish how it could possibly be so. If you make a terrible argument, it's reasonable for it to be called out as such. If you then fail to substantiate that argument when pressed, then I'm perfectly free to continue to label it as terrible. Don't get pissy just because you can't be asked to try.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your personal incredulity is not an effective counterargument.

Your butthurt, though, is as pleasing as ever.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Awful explanations all around. None of that is as much of a factor as his aging, which was already affecting him at 700, let alone when he neared 900 and was a mere 2 decades from dying of old age. It's also all speculative. Yoda says that after 700 he can only lift 5 stones. It doesn't say he can only do that when not trying that hard. Suggesting that he'd suddenly get dozens of times stronger just because he wants to harder is ludicrous. Likewise confronting his darkside and having more practise would lead to minor increases, not the insane one we're talking about.

Confronting his Dark Side made him so markedly stronger that he could transcend death and become a Force Ghost, and so much stronger that Sidious was shocked at his strength and actually feared him...

Not to mention:

Originally posted by Selenial
If y'all want to play retcon games though, The Jedi Path was retconned by the fact Dooku casually lifted over fourty tonnes of similar stones, and Yoda is confirmed his superior

Which is not guesswork at all, keep trying though.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
However dubious Tempest's explanation may be, it's still infinitely superior to Neph/Ziggy's, which is literally nonexistent. They offer no explanation - they just tell us to toss away the feats in question and pretend that they never even existed.

Of course, why they choose to discard onscreen feats rather than a line from a sourcebook, we may never know. It's pretty pathetic yeah, even by TOR standards.

I don't actually give a shit about the Muntuur stones, obviously Yoda is stronger than this. Temps argument was just poor.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


To be fair, there is another source that dictates the weights of the other stones as far less, I just haven't found it yet. You're also cherrypicking the source that is more beneficial to Yoda, when we both know how hilariously incorrect TCSWE can be.

Originally posted by Selenial
Confronting his Dark Side made him so markedly stronger that he could transcend death and become a Force Ghost, and so much stronger that Sidious was shocked at his strength and actually feared him...

Not to mention:



Which is not guesswork at all, keep trying though.

So he's Qui-Gon level. Neat.

I already responded to the Dooku thing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
However dubious Tempest's explanation may be, it's still infinitely superior to Neph/Ziggy's, which is literally nonexistent. They offer no explanation - they just tell us to toss away the feats in question and pretend that they never even existed.

Of course, why they choose to discard onscreen feats rather than a line from a sourcebook, we may never know.



All I said is that Yoda's abilities could have {and obviously did} increase in the time between his comments and the microseries. Sel provided ample explanations as to how and why that could have happened.

Frankly the answer is obvious, as Legends sources both the Jedi Path and the 2003 microseries are equally fallible. However through a simple application of logic its easy to deduce which depiciton of peak-Yoda's powers to be more accurate, and it's not the Jedi Path.

Temp. Could you make a real argument plox?

I'll repeat it, this statment does put an end to the debate:

"The way George explained it to me going in was that THE CLONE WARS micro-series was really an experiment to see what kind of audience there was for Star Wars in an animated form.So when we into doing this, I think that, now that George is done with the prequels, he wanted to reestablish the rules a little bit more, like "Mace Windu can't take out hundreds of battle droids by himself, otherwise the arena on Geonosis would've been a wipeout"

Legends and canon are entirely distinct phenomena. The canon "hierarchy" system was created prior to the split to encompass and guide a single mythology, which no longer exists.

No one has claimed that the microseries represents a canon depiction of Jedi Force powers. Your argument's sucess, therefore, is contingent on a strawman.

You have claimed that The Jedi Path retcons the microseries. I have demonstrated that, per usual, you're wrong.

I accepted your concession on the last page, Ziggy. Catch up, plz.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Temp. Could you make a real argument plox?

You should be begging at his feet, child.

Originally posted by Selenial
mmm

Conflicting sources, now that I look into it. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia claims:



But the original source for their weight, Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments from the Rim, claims that:



But then also, the other stones weights never were clarified. The Encyclopedia is giving all the stones at least 5 metric tons, rather then just the 1.

The heaviest being over 5? So there really isn't a contradiction here...at least nothing extreme.

All the stones are noted as being 5 metric tons, with the heaviest being over 5 metric tons.

Yeah the Encyclopedia says all, but even still.

Regardless, the stones were given a quantifiable weight rather than just 1 of them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Legends and canon are entirely distinct phenomena. The canon "hierarchy" system was created prior to the split to encompass and guide a single mythology, which no longer exists.

There is no reason to assume the system that was created in the past doesn't apply to the Legends continuity, as was created for that purpose. So this is a moot point.



So it's a concession?



My assertion is that Yoda's TK is unimpressive, which is supported by a number of sources. The Jedi path stating he can lift no more than 5 muntuur stones past age 700, is one. It stands to reason that his Telekinesis has declined as he nears 900, rather than improved one-thousand times over. This is a retcon. Then there are the movies (the higher levels of canon) or 'legends' depicting him struggling with lesser objects such as steel columns or senate pods. As a final nail in the coffin, we have George Lucas renouncing the micro series for it's inaccurate depiction of Jedi powers.

Your postion is that you know I'm in the right (yoda can not move ships of those sizes) but you think that I have chosen a faulty proof, and when you refute it, you can then claim that you have refuted the whole position. This isn't exactly logical debating...



And I have accepted you concession in this post. This is merely a last ditch effort to become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand. In becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack on the person by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character. This is a very popular trick, because everyone is able to carry it into effect.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Newer source would override older source would it not?

But then also, the other stones weights never were clarified.

That's not how it was done iirc.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
That's not how it was done iirc.

See edit.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Legends and canon are entirely distinct phenomena. The canon "hierarchy" system was created prior to the split to encompass and guide a single mythology, which no longer exists.

No one has claimed that the microseries represents a canon depiction of Jedi Force powers. Your argument's sucess, therefore, is contingent on a strawman.

You have claimed that The Jedi Path retcons the microseries. I have demonstrated that, per usual, you're wrong.

I accepted your concession on the last page, Ziggy. Catch up, plz.

That statement was also created prior to the legends-canon split. So I'm not sure why you think that matters. Lucas himself is indicating that the microseries is irrelevant. It was before the split, it wouldn't change after it.

Tempest has become pretty senile over the years. I was at least expecting a fight.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You should be begging at his feet, child.

I've lost all respect for you as well AP so you can go back to making blogs no one will read if you like.

Wait, AP has a blog???? Where????

Poor AP will cry herself to sleep now.

So no different from any other time they go to sleep.

So you concede how irrelevant you are?

Dunno if you should be talking about people being irrelevant Zoldron.

Is that Syndicate? Because 1.kek & 2.lel.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dunno if you should be talking about people being irrelevant Zoldron.

Ofc you wouldn't know while your vision is blurred by gagging on SWTOR dicks.

It is. I find it funny how you insult people if you don't know they supported you.

As Syn you were always very polite because you didn't want to drive off someone who didn't immediately dismiss your arguments but because I made another account and was just some random you didn't even bother to not be a douche.

Shows what kind of person you are, which is fine with me. A word of advice though, not being a d!ck to people you think are randoms will garner you more support.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So you concede how irrelevant you are?

I concede that AP is so miserable at his failures I'm only one more drop in the sea of depression he's stranded in.

Only one here has a Swtor avatar and sig.

Also I don't give, I receive.

^ why would you confess that?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only one here has a Swtor avatar and sig.

Also I don't give, I receive.

Tbh he got you there.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It is. I find it funny how you insult people if you don't know they supported you.

As Syn you were always very polite because you didn't want to drive off someone who didn't immediately dismiss your arguments but because I made another account and was just some random you didn't even bother to not be a douche.

Shows what kind of person you are, which is fine with me. A word of advice though, not being a d!ck to people you think are randoms will garner you more support. #exposed

I'm like the tabloid reporter of this forum.

Coming back to KMC and expecting civility, that was your first mistake.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Coming back to KMC and expecting civility, that was your first mistake.

lmao

Point well made.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Coming back to KMC and expecting civility, that was your first mistake.

As Zoltan so eloquently points out I've made plenty of mistakes before that and I'll probably make plenty long after as well.

I'm just trying to advise you that people would be more open to your arguments if you didn't act the way you did. Tbh this goes for everybody reading this actually.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Point well made.

Well, it was made anyways.

I think you'd be better off on CV, there is no such thing as civil discussion here.

I'm on CV as well but there's not much substance there.

Also, there could be. Honestly Legends is for the most part very polite if misguided.

It's well beyond the point of salvation.

Only if you cling stubbornly to that mindset tbh.

Legend is incredibly arrogant and condescending; to call this ironic would be rather redundant.

Have you been paying attention recently?

That's true but he's never rude about it. He probably legitimately thinks he's a superior intellect. He still attempts to be polite.

Legend acts that way because his culture doesn't allow for rudeness.

What's his culture?

No, Legend is legitimately rude, and yeah, it stems from his deluded notions of being smart. I suppose he's only like that to people who disagree with him though, but that's true for basically everyone.

Maybe I just haven't noticed it. Being condescending seems better then being an outright jerk tbh.

Legend can be rude yes, but in a really awkward and cringey way that one can help but find hilarious, give me a moment and I'll find some gems.

Indian or Pakistani, I just remember his first language is Urdu.

Doesn't he also think that gays are animals? Or something like that...

You read the Battle Bar then.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That statement was also created prior to the legends-canon split. So I'm not sure why you think that matters. Lucas himself is indicating that the microseries is irrelevant. It was before the split, it wouldn't change after it.

Anything that wasn't the movies and the TV series was irrelevant to Lucas. The microseries wasn't canon and no one has claimed otherwise.

The microseries, like lots of other things that Lucas doesn't give a shit about, is part of the Legends brand.

And lo, we're back to square one: Ziggy failed to prove his retcon.

Ziggy failing isn't new.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ziggy failing isn't new.

He's certainly threatening to upstage Neph in that department.

Neph is at least somewhat agreeable at times, Ziggy and Nai have made it an art form over the last decade.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Maybe I just haven't noticed it. Being condescending seems better then being an outright jerk tbh. Here we go, some lols from Ellm's classic debate with LeG on Vitiate's "creepy and intense" TP:Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have comprehension problems, my friend. No wait! Serious comprehension problems.Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The red part represents scary images, you idiot.

Wait, AP, I thought you'd love the internet's penultimate Kun wanker.

SWTOR's graphics are pretty horrifying.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Anything that wasn't the movies and the TV series was irrelevant to Lucas. The microseries wasn't canon and no one has claimed otherwise.

The microseries, like lots of other things that Lucas doesn't give a shit about, is part of the Legends brand.

And lo, we're back to square one: Ziggy failed to prove his retcon. Yeah Lucas was commenting on Canon/Movies-only continuity, like he always does. Those statements have no bearing in relation to other Legends sources.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Wait, AP, I thought you'd love the internet's penultimate Kun wanker.

If you think what either of those two are doing is for the benefit of Kun's respect among the community, you're deluding yourself, that or you haven't been around very long.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Here we go, some lols from Ellm's classic debate with LeG on Vitiate's "creepy and intense" TP:

Yeah. That is pretty cringey tbh. But in a cute conservative dork kind of way.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Anything that wasn't the movies and the TV series was irrelevant to Lucas. The microseries wasn't canon and no one has claimed otherwise.

The microseries, like lots of other things that Lucas doesn't give a shit about, is part of the Legends brand.

And lo, we're back to square one: Ziggy failed to prove his retcon.

No, it's irrelevant period. Lucas was evidently aware enough about it and cared enough to discuss it with Filoni and decide that the abilities showcased in it were too much and that he wanted them scaled back and contradicted by other material.

Nobody is mentioning canon and legends except for you. The distinction didn't exist when this statement was made.

Likewise, the Jedi Path came out 2 years before Lucas sold Star Wars. The microseries way before. This whole thing took place before the split occured. It has nothing to do with this. The microseries was invalidated before that.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Here we go, some lols from Ellm's classic debate with LeG on Vitiate's "creepy and intense" TP:

"You have comprehension problems, my friend. No wait! Serious comprehension problems."

- tempted to sig this

Originally posted by AncientPower
Neph is at least somewhat agreeable at times, Ziggy and Nai have made it an art form over the last decade.

Neph has long been canonized the Patron Saint of Double Standards.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/neph%20avatar_zpsm71bt3sm.jpg

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Legend can be rude yes, but in a really awkward and cringey way that one can help but find hilarious, give me a moment and I'll find some gems.

A lot of LeGenD's hostility owes to him being treated like shit in the past. Not excusing it, but he did begin his KMC career as relatively toothless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it's irrelevant period. Lucas was evidently aware enough about it and cared enough to discuss it with Filoni and decide that the abilities showcased in it were too much and that he wanted them scaled back and contradicted by other material.

Nobody is mentioning canon and legends except for you. The distinction didn't exist when this statement was made.

Likewise, the Jedi Path came out 2 years before Lucas sold Star Wars. The microseries way before. This whole thing took place before the split occured. It has nothing to do with this. The microseries was invalidated before that.

And yet when asked about the microseries, Pablo Hidalgo consistently says it counts as Legends, not some sort of bizarre Twilight Zone for shit you don't like.

It's Legends, Neph. Accept it. Embrace it. Bask in how Legendary it is.

What Neph argues can't compare to ten years of trying to prove you, specifically, wrong.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it's irrelevant period. Lucas was evidently aware enough about it and cared enough to discuss it with Filoni and decide that the abilities showcased in it were too much and that he wanted them scaled back and contradicted by other material.

Nobody is mentioning canon and legends except for you. The distinction didn't exist when this statement was made.

Likewise, the Jedi Path came out 2 years before Lucas sold Star Wars. The microseries way before. This whole thing took place before the split occured. It has nothing to do with this. The microseries was invalidated before that.

1. Citation needed.

2. Lucas also didn't want lots of the things in the OT to happen because they conflicted with his original vision, but were implemented for a lack of technological capabilities. The fact of the matter is that what was created was created - and the official pre-split canon policy was that it counted as a part of C-canon. You need to explain to us why we should take some hearsay from Lucas about the creative process more seriously than what the official conclusions by the company are.

3. It's funny enough that you don't apply this logic to other areas of dispute, like Lucas telling us that the PT Jedi Order was the Golden Age of the Jedi. If you tie that into the rest of the EU, and invalidate Yoda's OCW feats, you'd have to invalidate a lot of things you see in TOR that you think put those Force users over the PT Jedi, since we now know that to conflict with Lucas's vision.

Originally posted by AncientPower
What Neph argues can't compare to ten years of trying to prove you, specifically, wrong.

What can I say? I tend to make memorable impressions and attract the attention of others.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet when asked about the microseries, Pablo Hidalgo consistently says it counts as Legends, not some sort of bizarre Twilight Zone for shit you don't like.

It's Legends, Neph. Accept it. Embrace it. Bask in how Legendary it is.

So what? It can be legends and still be filled with invalid feats.

I mean, wasn't that kind of the point of Legends in the first place? That they're inaccurate? You're just trying to do an end run around the statement of inaccuracy by hiding behind a status that already makes it inaccurate.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Citation needed.

Maybe try reading the last few pages, sport.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what? It can be legends and still be filled with invalid feats.

I mean, wasn't that kind of the point of Legends in the first place? That they're inaccurate? You're just trying to do an end run around the statement of inaccuracy by hiding behind a status that already makes it inaccurate.

And if we're discarding feats/stories because they're Legends and thus, in your own words, "inaccurate," then they all go:

Only if they weren't established as C canon which the miniseries was Neph...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And if we're discarding feats/stories because they're Legends and thus, in your own words, "inaccurate," then they all go:

I'm not discarding them because they're Legends. I'm highlighting the hypocrisy of trying to ignore a statement invalidating the feats by hiding behind the Legends brand. The feats were invalid before the split occurred. I'm discarding them because they were discarded.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it's irrelevant period. Lucas was evidently aware enough about it and cared enough to discuss it with Filoni and decide that the abilities showcased in it were too much and that he wanted them scaled back and contradicted by other material.

Nobody is mentioning canon and legends except for you. The distinction didn't exist when this statement was made.Wrong darling, there has long been a distinction between the EU and "what's on screen", for example Filoni also said this back in 2012:

The EU is a well of ideas, and there's what's on screen. They don't live in the same universe. Everyone wants to think so, I know. We just need to think of it all as a creative collection of fun ideas separate from what George Lucas has made.

--Behind and Beyond the Battle Lines, Star Wars Insider 34

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not discarding them because they're Legends. I'm highlighting the hypocrisy of trying to ignore a statement invalidating the feats by hiding behind the Legends brand. The feats were invalid before the split occurred. I'm discarding them because they were discarded.

Lucas discarded them... as canon. In 2014, they became Legends.

Does the smaller sentences help you understand the point?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Lucas discarded them... as canon. In 2014, they became Legends.

Does the smaller sentences help you understand the point?



Only to understand that I'm talking to a brick wall. As ever, I have more valuable discussions with my toilet than you. I think I'm just going to go back to ignoring you again.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Only to understand that I'm talking to a brick wall. As ever, I have more valuable discussions with my toilet than you. I think I'm just going to go back to ignoring you again.

Given that your opinions are such as what might go into a toilet, I'm not at all surprised you're comfortable talking with one. You should consider diving in and tugging the lever.

Lmao.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given that your opinions are such as what might go into a toilet, I'm not at all surprised you're comfortable talking with one. You should consider diving in and tugging the lever.

Damn. I think I just got second degree burns from observing that disintegration.

Vader will be displeased.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given that your opinions are such as what might go into a toilet, I'm not at all surprised you're comfortable talking with one. You should consider diving in and tugging the lever.

lmfao

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Anything that wasn't the movies and the TV series was irrelevant to Lucas.

That is incorrect. All material in the expanded universe was created with Lucas' vision in mind. They are themselves, extensions of the 6 films, which is why the Holocron system labeled them G-canon - the highest order of the canon within the continuity. You are correct in pointing out that Legends and Canon are two separate entities, but that does not mean that legends are handled any differently now. There simply is no proof for that. And may I remind you how expanded universe was viewed, by the people responsible for that handling it?



- Leeland Chee regarding Legends material



- Leeland Chee on Lucas's vision

There is no reason to deny this other than fanboyism for Yoda, and by extension, Sheev. George is the ultimate authority regarding everything in Star Wars Legends. So when a statement or feat regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work is inconsistent, the Word of God comes in as the ultimate authority. Such edicts can even go against events as were broadcast, due to someone making a mistake - in this case - it's the level of power demonstrated by PT Jedi in the Clone Wars Micro Series.



- Dave Filoni on Lucas' guidlines

It is very simple, Lucas dictates the rules, meaning those awesome feats are out the question. So instead, we can look to Yoda's other showings, which can be found in the movies, the Dark Rendevouz novel or a sourcebook explicitly stating Yoda's limitations and how he declines with age.



Again, do you want a sticker?



Well he very clearly did give a shit about it Gideon. Do I need to post that quote again? This is not the first time he get's involved with things outside the movies either. For example, the Force unleashed video game was created with Lucas' council. You can find a lengthy description of that process in the blurb of the Graphic Novel itself:

http://i66.tinypic.com/34phytc.png

Get with the times Ziggy:Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wrong darling, there has long been a distinction between the EU and "what's on screen", for example Filoni also said this back in 2012:

The EU is a well of ideas, and there's what's on screen. They don't live in the same universe. Everyone wants to think so, I know. We just need to think of it all as a creative collection of fun ideas separate from what George Lucas has made.

--Behind and Beyond the Battle Lines, Star Wars Insider 34

Ironic tho that you cite Lucas' endorsement of the Force Unleashed of all things, as proof that OP microseries feats didn't fit with his vision.

That doesn't come close to to rebuking the statement there. The fact is, still George was the ultimate authority in Star Wars Legends wether you like it or not.

Uh-huh, and according to the ultimate authority George Lucas Legends is just "stories" - none of it is truly consistent with his vision, and none of it is accurate, so as Tempest put it on the previous page:Originally posted by The_Tempest
And if we're discarding feats/stories because they're Legends and thus, in your own words, "inaccurate," then they all goSpecifically your shitty argument about the PT Jedi not knowing how to use a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Get with the times Ziggy:

Ironic tho that you cite Lucas' endorsement of the Force Unleashed of all things, as proof that OP microseries feats didn't fit with his vision.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t632058.html

I personally believe that Rivi Anu is more ridiculous than Galen. Other than the Star Destroyer feat, which had a compounding list of circumstances, TFU isn't really that over-the-top.

Within the contexts of Lucas believing Windu blowing away armies, and Yoda manipulating shuttles to be OP, of course it is.

An what about little Rivi Anu?

That comic was created by the same people.

Rivi Anu's performance could easily have been a simple feat of Oneness, its no less ridiculous than Kanan one-shotted Maul in combat.

Laughable excuses. In that case, Yoda's shuttle feat was oneness given that he couldn't replicate those showings at any other time. Role call:

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4313951-yoda+holds+pillar.gif

Struggling to lift a rather pathetic metal pillar - having to deactivate his lightsaber to do so.

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4313966-yoda+redirects+senate+pod.gif

Taking a rather long time to re-direct and throw one senate pod at Palpatine. When he should be able to lift every seat in the room - supposedly.

http://www.facegarage.com/content/uploads/ytToGIF_earaagfgec958387.gif

Failing to reach Ventress' little spaceship before it takes flight after suspending a few rocks:


http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11126/111267273/4963444-5998116432-43509.jpg

And last but not least, failing to lift more than five munturr stones, having declined with age and likely declined further.

Laughable excuse? That's rather rich coming from someone whose evading my point because their not prepared to give up their precious "PT sux" theory.

Really you're not getting it are you? Canon depicts Force sensitives as generally less powerful as they are in Legends. However when comparing Canon characters to Legends its illogical to use as a basis to write of their other accomplishments when by the same logic, the breadth of Legends materials could be written off as exaggerated, overblown stories.

On the other hand if that is the approach you which to take then we can do just that, which means most of Vitiate's accomplishments are probably trash, Revan certainly wasn't capable of hurling asteroids (especially when he's canonically inferior to Yoda) and Exar Kun may have never existed. That is the reality you are proposing, not that the most powerful Jedi ever is in fact super lame.

The Essential Reader's Companion notes the EU doesn't fall into Lucas' vision, so he has no authority over it... End of discussion.

Ziggy, aren't you of the stance that moving heavy objects does not equate to being a good combatant? If so, then how does this thread disprove Yoda as a telekinetic powerhouse when his combat TK feats are still quite good (manhandling Ventress, easily matching Dooku, and force pushing and competing with Sidious), and his mastery of force techniques and power probably trumps a good majority of the Star Wars Universe?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
My assertion is that Yoda's TK is unimpressive, which is supported by a number of sources. The Jedi path stating he can lift no more than 5 muntuur stones past age 700, is one. It stands to reason that his Telekinesis has declined as he nears 900, rather than improved one-thousand times over. This is a retcon. Then there are the movies (the higher levels of canon) or 'legends' depicting him struggling with lesser objects such as steel columns or senate pods. As a final nail in the coffin, we have George Lucas renouncing the micro series for it's inaccurate depiction of Jedi powers.

Your postion is that you know I'm in the right (yoda can not move ships of those sizes) but you think that I have chosen a faulty proof, and when you refute it, you can then claim that you have refuted the whole position. This isn't exactly logical debating...

Legend be reasonable.

Whatever the reason for Yoda's lacking telekinetic ability pre Clone Wars it obviously does not hinder his ability as the war progresses given the C canon feats we know exist that allow us to place him so highly as a telekinetic.

Nevermind.

Tempest spends his time on other projects, we both frequent a forum he's active in. He just doesn't exert much energy on KMC because the status quo is unlikely to change and any effort on his part would be wasted for the most part.

It's too bad that Yoda's doing so much better in the PT era, isn't it?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Legend acts that way because his culture doesn't allow for rudeness.

You're just as biased and wrongheaded as he is, honestly you're not one to talk

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Here we go, some lols from Ellm's classic debate with LeG on Vitiate's "creepy and intense" TP:
Here's some more from Beniboybling:


Originally posted by Beniboybling
I must admit I'm confused by the logic that this feat (though I am unaware of the specifics) places the Sith Emperor above Darth Sidious.

Fact is, we have no basis for assuming Darth Sidious is incapable of this, any more than we have that he is. And to claim either with any level of validity, is to baselessly assume. It's therefore insufficient proof of the Sith Emperor's superiority.

Sorry.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
As far as agility is concerned granted Grievous' anatomy gives him impressive acrobatic ability, but Savage just seems less of a lumbering combatant. For example I don't see Grievous performing like this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625071-savage+dodges+kenobi.gif

Damn. Lol.

Fcking hell. Caedus ahead of Palpatine.... Hehe.. Hehe

Master Fay ahead of... all those people.

Maul and Kas'im above Krayt....

Shots fired.

Oi, don't put that cancer on these forums and slap my name on it. All those decisions were made by Beni, only the new series had my consent, and even that was dragged down by him http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1790400411.gif

Nah, Sel agreed to all the decisions.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nah, Sel agreed to all the decisions.

Yeh, everyone remembers how much I supported Fay's placement

Originally posted by Selenial
Yeh, everyone remembers how much I supported Fay's placement The others tho...