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Battle takes place on a moving walkway fueled by Carthage's ejaculations.

No giga-drain.

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out

Traya wins over-all, but a sabers argument can be made for Ti.

Traya
Ti
Traya

Traya
Ti
Either way.

Traya can one-shot 20 elite sith assassins and Shaak Ti can solo 50 elite magnaguards. A case could be made either way.

Standard MagnaGuard = Standard Jedi Knight = Fodder Sith. Elite MangaGuard > all of them.

Ti stawmps

Lol yeah, Grievous's magnaguards actually have the feats to back up that "elite" label.

Traya
Shaak
Traya

Originally posted by darthbane77
Traya
Shaak
Traya

Not even sure if Shaak wins sabers, tbh.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol yeah, Grievous's magnaguards actually have the feats to back up that "elite" label.

I'd say each of them surviving ten battles with Jedi Knights in the the Order's combative prime counts as a showing that lets them live up to that hype.

Lol, another idiotic thread taking away a character's main power.. Not that it matters. Traya takes this without much difficulty as far as the force is concerned. She doesn't really have ti's saber accolades though.

It's not Traya's "main power" at all.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not Traya's "main power" at all. her giga drain is.

No, it isn't. She's only shown it once and she wouldn't use it in-character except as a last resort.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, it isn't. She's only shown it once and she wouldn't use it in-character except as a last resort.

That uh would make it her main power. She's shown it twice actually. Main power=most powerful force power.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
That uh would make it her main power. She's shown it twice actually. Main power=most powerful force power.

Using it once and as a last resort makes it your main power?

She's only shown it once - in the Enclave (yes, I know there's two versions of the scene).

Main = most common, not most powerful.

Once against the sith assassins at the Trayus Academy
Once in the Enclave.

She didn't use Drain on the assassins in the Trayus Academy.

If you want to take that definition, be my guest. I'm not here to argue semantics.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She didn't use Drain on the assassins in the Trayus Academy.

If you want to take that definition, be my guest. I'm not here to argue semantics.

Because that's the definition in this context.
Nihilus' main power= drain
Luke's main power= I guess emerald lightning
Palpatine's main power= Force storm
And so on.

And what, pray tell, did she use on the Assassins? It was a force drain. Maybe not the same properties as in the Enclave, but same result.

It's not Drain just because they're dead, lol. KotOR II has a distinct sound effect that accompanies usage of Drain, and that wasn't present when she killed the Sith. She's also not depicted as using Drain in the script, not to mention that it goes completely against her morals. Something like internal telekinesis would make far more sense.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not Drain just because they're dead, lol. KotOR II has a distinct sound effect that accompanies usage of Drain, and that wasn't present when she killed the Sith. She's also not depicted as using Drain in the script, not to mention that it goes completely against her morals. Something like internal telekinesis would make far more sense.

Against what morals? What was in the script? The whole story of KOTOR II assassins is their ability to drain the force from their enemy. Kreia is their leader. She walks by them, they die. It doesn't have to be spelled out for you in this instance.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Against what morals? What was in the script? The whole story of KOTOR II assassins is their ability to drain the force from their enemy. Kreia is their leader. She walks by them, they die. It doesn't have to be spelled out for you in this instance.

Did you even pay attention to what Kreia said whenever the topic of Drain was brought up? Kreia rants on about how terrible such a power is, why the teaching needs to be ended, even talks about why Nihilus' power needs to die with him in the DS revelation scene in the Enclave, etc. Avellone confirms that she wouldn't want to use it, as Ancient Sith did not, because it would subsume her identity and she would become something comparable to Nihilus. The only reason she uses Drain on the Masters is to show them their hypocrisy and how they can't live without the Force, which is the quality of the Exile that she prized so much.

The script mentions her using Drain during both Enclave scenes. It doesn't mention her using Drain when she kills the assassins, only them lying dead after a "flash of black". But as I said, in-game, you don't hear any sound effects that would give away the usage of Drain, Choke etc.

It's likely that she killed them by crushing the life out of them quickly (something she's done before in the game script) or stopping their hearts or something.

Yes, I've also played the game 20 times or so. Kreia is full of wisdom as well as envy and hypocrisy. I think you're confused though so I'll help you out. Her "giga drain" maybe of the same property as that of Nihilus, but it's not of the same strength. Revan taught this power to the sith assassins at the Trayus Academy, as well as Kreia. It doesn't affect Kreia or her assassins like it does Nihilus because it's not a "giga drain".

Lmfao, she is the one who taught Nihilus to take it to that level.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lmfao, she is the one who taught Nihilus to take it to that level.

No, she didn't. It came to him naturally when the Mass Shadow Generator went off. That's why Kraya says it's not a technique that can be taught.

Originally posted by AncientPower


Which is then followed by:

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yes, I've also played the game 20 times or so. Kreia is full of wisdom as well as envy and hypocrisy. I think you're confused though so I'll help you out. Her "giga drain" maybe of the same property as that of Nihilus, but it's not of the same strength.

Indeed - if it's of the same properties, then she wouldn't use it, because it would subsume her identity as it did Nihilus. Thanks for proving my point.



Revan didn't teach these powers to the Academy Sith, he learnt it from them. He did to teach it to his own sect of Assassins yes, and Traya taught it to Sion (and by extension Sion's assassins) and Nihilus.

The potency of the Drain doesn't change it's properties. It subsumes your identity - hence Kreia doesn't want to use it unless absolutely necessary. Whatever she did to the Assassins on Malachor V was clearly not Drain regardless, since the distinct sound effect is absent, it goes against her established morals, and she has no reason to use Drain when powers like telekinesis would suffice (and are far more likely).

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Which is then followed by:

She lied. She later refers to it as a teaching that must be ended before it is spread, and KotORCG confirms that she taught him to appease his hunger. BoS confirms that Darth Revan learned the technique from Zelashiel the Blasphemer, and Bane learned the technique as well. Kreia even directly states that the Assassins and Nihilus share the same power, only that Nihilus' power represents "the pinnacle of what they may achieve in time". Do you think each of the Assassins has experienced Drain as well? No, they were taught it, by Revan and her.

It can be learnt, it's just that Nihilus and the Exile, as Wounds in the Force, learnt and used it instinctively.

Same strength= same problem as Nihilus. Different properties=different than Nihilus. Not to mention, it wasn't some kind of reaction to the Mass Shadow Generator that created Nihilus' hunger, not the drain itself. The drain was a consequence.. So no, I proved my point.


There were no academy sith lol. He learned it during his time on malachor V, then taught it to his assassins. Kreia did the same.


Kreia had no morals. She did what she wanted when she wanted, whatever she deemed necessary. Once again, the drain wasn't consuming Nihilus, his hunger was. The drain was just a side effect.


Prove it. I've read those wikipedia articles too. The assassins were taught to drain the force from force users. They were not taught a giga drain because it wasn't something that could be taught.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Same strength= same problem as Nihilus. Different properties=different than Nihilus. Not to mention, it wasn't some kind of reaction to the Mass Shadow Generator that created Nihilus' hunger, not the drain itself. The drain was a consequence.. So no, I proved my point.

You just said it was of the same properties, not different ones. Stop contradicting yourself.



I read your earlier post wrong. You're right in that he taught it to his Assassins. But as you said, Revan learned the technique, as did Kreia. They didn't gain it from being Drained themselves as your quote implies - and neither did Sion or the Assassins. It's very much a teaching, and she lied when she said that it couldn't be taught. So yes, it can be taught.



Where did you get this from? Kreia's morals are the reason that she wants Nihilus and his "teaching" wiped from the face of the galaxy. She abhors the Drain power, lol. She only uses it when absolutely necessary.





And she wasn't lying there, because this is the DS revelation scene. She's explaining it all to the Exile. As I said, she clearly abhors Drain and would not use it incessantly like Nihilus. She only uses it with good reason - such as showing the Masters their hypocrisy and showing them a universe without the Force ("See it through the eyes of the Exile". She has no reason to use it against those Sith on Malachor V, and the fact that it's not stated to be Drain in the game script (when every other application of Drain is explicitly noted by the script) and is not accompanied by the Drain sound effect in-game confirms that it isn't Drain. Game over.



The hunger was consuming Nihilus, but the Drain was subsuming his identity. Avellone confirms as much - I'll try and get the quote for you.



Wikipedia? I have my own sources, lol.

Nihilus' Drain is exactly the same as Kreia's and the Assassins. She just trained him to take it further:





And both Revan and Bane learned the technique as well:



It's a lie that the technique can't be learned.

It was a typo. I meant same properties different strength.


Again, both of them learned the technique. Neither of them can giga drain anybody. That aspect belongs solely to Nihilus' due to his hunger.


By playing the game. She frequently lies and manipulates to get her way.


DS choices/scenes are considered non canon.


You won't get that from Avellone because you're wrong. The hunger was consuming Nihilus and the drain was keeping him alive temporarily while he was wasting away.


She didn't train him to take it further because he took it further before even meeting Kreia. She taught him to harness/control it.


Yes, they learned the force drain. They didn't learn a giga drain.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
It was a typo. I meant same properties different strength.

Again, both of them learned the technique. Neither of them can giga drain anybody. That aspect belongs solely to Nihilus' due to his hunger.

Did you not read my post? The technique that the Assassins used was exactly the same as the one that Nihilus did, Nihilus just used it to a greater extent. And guess who taught him to harness it a greater extent? Traya. I provided all the quotes above, and I didn't do it so you could ignore them.



Which is precisely what I'm saying. She lied when she said the technique can't be learnt. She later calls it a teaching and something that needs to die off. Other sources confirm that it can be learnt.



The fact that the actual scene didn't happen in continuity doesn't mean the content she explores in it is irrelevant, lol.



Avellone already made the comment. I'm right, as the quotes above already prove.



No, the quote explicitly states that she taught him to devour worlds. Prior to that, he was leeching the life off individuals. Once again:





It's the same technique. Again:



You keep repeating yourself and blatantly ignore my quoted evidence. It's not Drain that she used on the Assassins, period.

You are missing the point. A giga drain/greater extent/nobody else can use it means precisely that it can't be taught, which is consistent with what KOTOR and I have been saying.


There are no other sources. The only source is a vague reference to the Blasphmer who may or may not have been a mythical figure.


It's pretty irrelevant.


Except you haven't actually quoted Avellone have you?


And once again, it was explicitly stated that it cannot be taught.


You didn't provide any evidence, especially since everything points to the death of the Assassins being the result of a drain.

He's provided a mountain of evidence, you've provided nothing but your assumptions.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He's provided a mountain of evidence, you've provided nothing but your assumptions.

Yea that makes sense when you already have your mind made up, then it just looks like you're having trouble with reality.

He has sourced his claims, you've openly stated your knowledge stretches between a few articles on Wookieepedia and a few playthroughs. You're arguing KOTOR2 with the guy who wrote the respect threads, played the game countless times, has read through the KOTOR2 Prima Guide and KOTOR Campaign Guide, actively researched the game's script, played the Restored Content, read through SWTOR Codex Entries, the Revan novel and the SWTOR Encyclopedia.

His claims stretch to wikipedia which I've refuted, as well as all of his claims.


Wonderful. I bet you could find 10 guys that did all that here and have played the KOTOR game countless times (me included), so I'm afraid I don't understand your point other than you agreeing with what you want to hear.

You've wrote full respect threads for the KOTOR 2 cast? Please enlighten us.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You've wrote full respect threads for the KOTOR 2 cast? Please enlighten us.

I wasn't aware a respect thread indicated full knowledge of character or characters.. But ok.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You are missing the point. A giga drain/greater extent/nobody else can use it means precisely that it can't be taught, which is consistent with what KOTOR and I have been saying.

As outstanding as your ability to ignore quotes right in front of you is, the reason that Nihilus' Drain is taken to such an extent is because of Kreia's teachings. For the final time:



But of course, what does the continuation of blatantly ignoring evidence matter?



I don't have time to waste on this. I've already posted quotes above, excluding BoS, that prove that it's a teaching.



And you've decided this because it debunks everything you've said? Wonderful. Concession accepted.



Tragically, I can't find his quote. Perhaps DarthAnt66 or Selenial might have it on them.



Which, as I've explained to you, could well be a lie. The fact that you can go around claiming that she lies about this and that but can't accept that the sole quote your entire argument hinges on might be a lie is something of a double standard, don't you think?

She goes on to contradict herself when she's revealing the truth to you in the Enclave. But of course, that's what you dismiss, since you can't have your argument being contradicted, can you?

Your best case scenario would be to argue that her "it cannot be learned" quote refers to not being able to be learned conventionally. Any Sith who embraces Malachor V and the Trayus Academy learns the technique, since they "experience its effects first-hand" as your quote suggests.



Indeed? From where I'm standing, the only thing pointing to the death of the Assassins being the result of Drain is your penchant for ignoring evidence that's right in front of you.

You haven't shown me anything that proves that Traya Drained them. By contrast, the fact that the distinct Drain sound effect isn't heard, and the fact that it isn't stated to be Drain in the script even though every other instance of Drain being used is mentioned in the script, pretty much blows your argument apart. Whatever we hypothesize is the cause of their death, it's not Drain.

It's likely to be similar to how she curbed Bao-Dur:



Only in this case, Kreia doesn't need to keep them alive, and simply killed them - and quickly.

Gotta love how Nihilus' holocron can impart his drain, teaching it to others. But nope Syndicate's opinion > all.

I mean even Palps Dark Adepts knew Drain, so it's clearly a technique that can be taught.

Different drain.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Different drain.

Which Drain? I haven't seen any other kind of Drain.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Different drain.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Which Drain? I haven't seen any other kind of Drain.

Force Drain is an entire spectrum of powers. There's ones that are simply siphoning the life energy of others, and there's others which also drain the Force connections of others (the KotOR II version), which is actually akin to tapping into the Force, but instead of the Force, you tap into somebody else's Force connection.

Ti MIGHT take sabers but it should be a fairly straight forward victory for Traya.

I'm still curious to see what it is that actually gives Ti the edge in sabers.

I think it's a mixture of underestimating/lowballing Traya's skill and exaggerating Shaak's saber feats. something I'm perhaps guilty of...

No, I mean saber feats, accolades, etc.

Beating Galen in sabers, holding off a big number of Magnaguards, implied that only the most skilled of the prime of the jedi can stand against her.

But ofc you know all of these.

Originally posted by SunRazer
As outstanding as your ability to ignore quotes right in front of you is, the reason that Nihilus' Drain is taken to such an extent is because of Kreia's teachings. For the final time:



But of course, what does the continuation of blatantly ignoring evidence matter

This was after Nihilus had acquired the technique. She didn't teach the actual technique to him, she merely taught him how to embrace his power. Those quotes contradict nothing.

It contradicts what he claimed about Nihilus' technique being different from everybody else's because of its sheer magnitude.

@Zoltan - Not sure how the first one puts her over Traya. Second one's circumstantial and the third one... isn't accurate.

Because Galen > Traya; There were negative circumstances affecting Shaak, as well(like being massively outnumbered by beings who adapt to nearly anything and excel at fighting as a group) and being exhausted from running around Coruscant with no pause; and the third one is a canon statement so... yeah.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure how the first one puts her over Traya.

Yeah I'm not sure either how being better than someone who was ruthlessly trained by Vader, all but perfected lightsaber combat, mastered Juyo, Shien, and Soresu, and is as competent a duelist as he is powerful in the force would put Shaak above Traya mmm

Originally posted by SunRazer
Second one's circumstantial

inb4 ILS Magnaguard lowballing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
and the third one... isn't accurate.

Right. Let me know when you have canon authority, until then I'll take these over your low opinion of Shaak:

"Only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!"
--The Clone Wars Adventures

The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their Order and among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat.
--The Force Unleashed campaign guide

Zoltan, where do you have Shaak Ti? Kenobi level?

Yes.

Good

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yeah I'm not sure either how being better than someone who was ruthlessly trained by Vader

Flint was too.



And just on what grounds are we deciding if somebody's perfected lightsaber combat? What does that even mean? Is Galen capable of contending with the Emperor and Yoda now?



Which Traya's done.



Vague quotes like this are impossible to quantify, lol.



I don't need to lowball anything. But feats accomplished in the thick of crowds, where Shaak naturally excels, and using an electrostaff in tandem with a lightsaber, which she doesn't have access to here, isn't exactly applicable here.



And what exactly does "the most skilled" entail? The likes of Anoon Bondara? Sure. Obi-Wan? Obviously not. Cin Drallig's more skilled than Shaak as of the Clone Wars, lol. You don't need to be Obi-Wan + to stand against Shaak. Bondara level is something I'd credit Atton Rand with, and Traya defeated him in a "short, quick, brutal duel", meaning that even duelists of that level can't stand against Traya, whereas they might be able to stand against Shaak per your quote.

Your second quote is an accolade that's widely distributed amongst Jedi in the PT era.

Still haven't seen anything that puts her over Traya.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


It's amazing how these kids still don't get this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Flint was too.

When Flint has Sidious+ potential I'll might even care.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And just on what grounds are we deciding if somebody's perfected lightsaber combat? What does that even mean? Is Galen capable of contending with the Emperor and Yoda now?

On this ground:

Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which Traya's done.

Quote she mastered Juyo?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vague quotes like this are impossible to quantify, lol.

Maybe for you.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't need to lowball anything. But feats accomplished in the thick of crowds, where Shaak naturally excels with, and using an electrostaff in tandem with a lightsaber, which she doesn't have access to here, isn't exactly applicable here.

It doesn't have to be applicable to be a testament for her skill. Just like how Plagueis unbalancing the Force is not a combat feat yet people use it to pinpoint his power in the Force. Catch up Nova.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And what exactly does "the most skilled" entail? The likes of Anoon Bondara? Sure. Obi-Wan? Obviously not. Cin Drallig's more skilled than Shaak as of the Clone Wars, lol.

Most skilled means most skilled. Which is way better than any combat accolades Traya has.

And what if Cin was more skilled than RotS Ti? He mastered all 7 lightsaber forms, was the Order's Battlemaster, was said to be the Order's top swordsman, and his skills were unparalleled. He's better than Traya too

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
When Flint has Sidious+ potential I'll might even care.

I might care when Galen approaches that potential.



I'm aware of the quote, lol. What I was asking was what "perfecting lightsaber combat" even refers to.



On the same grounds that you mentioned Cin Drallig mastering the seven forms.



Maybe you can tell me where this places Galen as a swordsman then.



It does have to be applicable, since skill isn't universal in the same sense as power. The fact that Shaak had differing levels of performance against the Guards depending on whether she had a lightsaber or a lightsaber + electrostaff proves something. And the fact that she isn't fighting in a crowd or with an electrostaff here means you can leave that quote at the door.



Really? Because the KotOR era had more skilled Jedi in general, and the strongest of them went to the Mandalorian Wars, including Kreia. Ergo, Kreia was among the most skilled of her time, which would be an even better accolade than being among the most skilled in the PT era. It's obviously a comparison relative to your average Jedi, not to your upper echelons, since Shaak's obviously not comparable to Mace, Yoda etc.



It's too bad that he was curbed by a hindered, one-armed Anakin, then, isn't it? These accolades don't matter when they're clearly contradicted, lol. Unparalleled my ass.

But I mean, while we're at the silly quotes contest, Traya absolutely manhandled a trio of Jedi, each of whom reached the "pinnacle of Force mastery". I guess she shits on Shaak, Galen and Vader combined with the Force, lmfao.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I might care when Galen approaches that potential.

Yeah because one's potential has nothing to do with their learning curve. That's why Dooku eclipsed Skywalker with his 50+ years of experience and learning....Oh wait.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm aware of the quote, lol. What I was asking was what "perfecting lightsaber combat" even refers to.

It means he's good. God Nova, wtf kind of nitpicking is this?

Originally posted by SunRazer
On the same grounds that you mentioned Cin Drallig mastering the seven forms.

So there's none, good.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maybe you can tell me where this places Galen as a swordsman then.

Above Traya.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It does have to be applicable, since skill isn't universal in the same sense as power. The fact that Shaak had differing levels of performance against the Guards depending on whether she had a lightsaber or a lightsaber + electrostaff proves something. And the fact that she isn't fighting in a crowd or with an electrostaff here means you can leave that quote at the door.

Right. So anyone can just fend off a group of Magnaguards because it has nothing to do with skill. Got it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Really? Because the KotOR era had more skilled Jedi in general, and the strongest of them went to the Mandalorian Wars, including Kreia. Ergo, Kreia was among the most skilled of her time, which would be an even better accolade than being among the most skilled in the PT era. It's obviously a comparison relative to your average Jedi, not to your upper echelons, since Shaak's obviously not comparable to Mace, Yoda etc.

If you mean that ridiculous quote about KotOR Jedi > CW Jedi then lmao. The Jedi Order during the CW was notably weak, because they were spread thin and were dying by the hundreds in the biggest war the Galaxy has ever seen. So KotOR Jedi Order might've been better in numbers, but not quality.

And Traya wasn't the most skilled of her time anyway. At least I don't see any such quote in your RT.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's too bad that he was curbed by a hindered, one-armed Anakin, then, isn't it? These accolades don't matter when they're clearly contradicted, lol. Unparalleled my ass.

1. Anakin wasn't hindered
2. Anakin was Yoda level during Knightfall
3. Anankin would penetrate Traya so badly she couldn't sit for a month.

"Cin Drallig is honored with the mantle of both Chief of Security and Battlemaster for the Jedi Temple. His unparalleled skill with a lightsaber has benefited many a Jedi under his tutelage, including Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker."

"An esteemed Jedi Master and a swordsmaster of nearly unparalleled skills, Cin Dralig represents the Jedi Order's tenets in their purest form."

At least look up on the characters before you say stuff like these:
Originally posted by SunRazer
Unparalleled my ass.
Originally posted by SunRazer
and the third one... isn't accurate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
But I mean, while we're at the silly quotes contest, Traya absolutely manhandled a trio of Jedi, each of whom reached the "pinnacle of Force mastery". I guess she shits on Shaak, Galen and Vader combined with the Force, lmfao.

If only Force Mastery would be more important than actualized power. If only...

I was on the fence about sabers only, but Zoltan's kinda wrecking face here mmm

First time I've seen Zoltan actually try to argue. Not bad

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yeah because one's potential has nothing to do with their learning curve. That's why Dooku eclipsed Skywalker with his 50+ years of experience and learning....Oh wait.

Which is great. It's too bad that Galen's only at a fraction of said learning curve.



Really? Because I thought it meant he liked his scotch neat.



I'm not nitpicking. I'm asking you to clarify what this would mean, because if it's not quantifiable, we really can't do anything with it.

Drop the accusations and start being cooperative here.



Ah, so Cin isn't a master of all forms? There's your last argument down.

On the other hand, Atris was a talented user of Juyo, and Brianna matched her. A later version of Brianna was having her blows dodged effortlessly by Traya, who appeared to not even be moving when she did that. That's essentially Sidious to the B-Team. If there's such a big difference between Traya and Atris, yeah, I'm putting her over Shaak.

Then there's Traya beating down Atton in a "short, quick, brutal duel", and this is the same Atton who defeated Sion whilst drowned in the dark side (on the other hand, even DS Atton gets curbed by Traya). Sion's at the top of a Sith Order that's killed tens of thousands of Jedi, which is also hierarchically organized based on the number of kills attained and leadership is "elected by the lightsaber's blade", not to mention that every Sith in the Triumvirate was already proficient in the Jedi arts before studying further at Korriban and Malachor V. And Sion's better then all of them. Atton's well above that, and Traya's hugely above Atton. Do tell me what Shaak has that's so obviously superior to this.



Knew you'd say that. Too bad you have nothing to show for it.



I thought MS Warehouse was the guy who couldn't read, not you? I said Shaak's ability to fight in crowds and her ability to use the electrostaff in tandem with a lightsaber, which Magnaguards lack the programming to counter, is why that showing's so good. But in a one-versus-one against a non-Magnaguard opponent, armed only with her lightsaber, the feat's as irrelevant as Legend's red herrings.



So this is ridiculous, but not some of that hyperbolic crap that you've been spilling out of your ass?



It's referring to the Order's average prowess in combat.



I don't have it in her Combat Skill section for some reason, but it's in her power section. She's supposed to be among the strongest Jedi of her time, per Surik.



Per the junior novel, yeah, he was. He was already showing signs of the emotional divide which made him infamously hindered on Mustafar.



But Cin was an unparalleled swordsman.



At least then Traya won't be getting served the same way Shaak did in the RotS deleted scene.



Until now, I never knew that brain cancer was infectious. I'm aware of the existence of these quotes, lmfao. I'm saying that they're hyperbolic crap.



More important than some of these ridiculous accolades that you're pulling out of your ass, lol.

Originally posted by Selenial
I was on the fence about sabers only, but Zoltan's kinda wrecking face here mmm

Pretty much, lol.

The idea that MangaGuards were caught off-guard by a weapon they trained with, because Dooku was scolding Grievous for using power-blows against fodder is downright hilarious.

EDIT: Also, the Complete Character Encyclopedia backs up MagnaGuards adapting to anything and everything. 3 vs 1 and that 1 is questionable as it is.

It also didn't bother Grievous who has the same programing: https://youtu.be/JeuZz6J5tvc?t=2m

Then there's the elite MagnaGuards challenging Kenobi, and being "too mach for even the most skilled Jedi" and the Jedi who usually manage to survive encounters with them being "extremely exhausted"; or being the equivalent to/greater than Jedi Masters who were "the top of their craft in the Order".

At what point (in terms of length, I assume) do posts become unquotable? Because then it's a pest and a pain to even format a response. Though this might be the same for you, Zoltan.



Nitpicking? Dismissing? Hardly. The fact that the accolade makes him out to be an impressive swordsman hasn't escaped me, nor do I deny that. What I'm asking you is just how impressive does it make him out to be? Sidious tier? Bondara tier? In between? And if so, where? Accolades are only as useful as they are mensurable.



It should be apparent by the fact that I'm arguing on the basis of feats rather than accolades that I'm conceding the accolade war. Should we turn this into a feats war? Because pre-Felucia Galen doesn't exactly have a lot going for him.

Let's bridge the gap between these feat-extreme and accolade-extreme comparisons, rather than suggesting outright superiority because you have more or better of this than the other.



I was actually hoping to receive a direct quote proving Cin's mastery of the forms, but that aside, I think it's pretty obvious that he did.

As for Kreia, there's the fact that you can learn Juyo from Master Kavar, who goes on to comment that you've mastered the form. Yet after that you can continue to seek instruction on it from Kreia. Obviously Kavar etc. is a master of the form, yet in the DS fights against him and the others, Kreia's capable of analyzing his form and its weaknesses and telepathically relaying them to you, something that I doubt anybody short of a master could do.



Do you sincerely believe that all it takes is speed for you to do something like that? I mean, when Sidious blitzes the B-Team and Yoda curbs the three Jedi, it's usually taken to be all facets of combat (ie. combat skill, speed, etc.), not just speed. This is no different. Unless, of course, you don't believe skill had any bearing in the other two scenarios.



How so? Even provided that Galen's faster than Brianna, simply outpacing someone isn't remotely comparable to dodging all of someone's blows effortlessly without even appearing to move (ie. blitz-tier difference).



What's this based on? Bondara being one of the most skilled Jedi of his time? Atris would be as well, per only the most skilled Force users being able to learn Juyo. Anoon's accolade that makes him out to be the most skilled swordsman is based on the opinions of those who obviously don't have enough knowledge to judge - it's much like the Mandalorians considering Kavar the greatest warrior in the Order until they met Revan. And Atris is better than Kavar, by the way.



Still doesn't justify the level of speed disparity between Traya and Brianna.



If you disagree on evidence from the game files being usable, then we can agree to disagree and spare ourselves the problem of dragging this out without results on either side.



If you can prove to me how a few dialogue changes make Traya disproportionately powerful, then be my guest. I doubt you can, though.

On the other hand, Traya doesn't Drain the Jedi Masters, and Atton/Brianna potentially absorbs the power within Freedon Nadd's Tomb, so if anything, only Atton/Brianna would get stronger, not Traya.

My point was to dismiss the counterargument of "it happened on a nexus" before it came up, because obviously the writers wanted to portray Traya's superiority regardless of environment or alignment.



Not too long ago, I would've taken that quote from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia at face value, but seeing as to how it blatantly misrepresents so much of what happens in the game, I'm much less inclined to believe it. You also later make the distinction between being among the most powerful and the most skilled, yet you're implying that they're the same here. You can't have two bites of the cherry.



Even outside of your low opinion of what Triumvirate Sith are capable of, you're dead wrong. Sion was killing numerous Jedi on the battlefields and regularly surviving such fights in the Exar Kun War - which would be before your "3 devastating wars". By this time, he was well before his prime and had yet to actually do his resurrecting shizz:



With many Jedi of this time being experts in lightsaber and Force combat:



Sion's clearly an elite-caliber duelist by KotOR II, and Atton beating him whilst drowned in the dark side and with Sion receiving an equivalent amp is something I'd put as comparable to Bondara. Traya beating him in a "short, quick, brutal duel" surely puts her in league with your great lightsaber duelists, and once again, I'm not seeing Shaak being better.



There's actually even more sources supporting your point, but I'm not interested in debating this right now. I'll concede to accelerate the process.



Indeed? Perhaps you'd like to justify the vast disparity in Shaak's performance in part 1 of the fight, where she has only her lightsaber and is actually engaging them in single combat, and part 2, where she has the electrostaff and is fighting within the crowd, which sources have noted that she excels in?

Not to mention that earlier in the episode (ie. well before this scene), Shaak engages in one-on-one combat with Magnaguards with just her lightsaber and it's clearly not as easy for her to be destroying Magnaguards left-and-right as you're spouting here. The fact that Shaak only magically gains the ability to do so once she gets those advantages I listed makes it pretty clear that either those advantages are pretty game-changing, or it's pure PIS. Take your pick.

In fact, as you said earlier, two instances beats one. That's why Shaak having difficulty with a single Magnaguard twice takes precedence over her destroying Magnaguards left and right as a one-off.

Referring to the weakest of the Order? Nonsense. It mentions "even moreso than the Clone Wars", which means that it's referring to what would otherwise be the prime of the Jedi. If it helps you feel any better, by your logic, I'd be referring to earlier in the Clone Wars, not at its weakest point.

Not that this matters considering that it states the Order is at its summit of power, which would still put it above wherever you consider the "prime of the Jedi", be it TPM or CW.



I was wrong when I said that it referred to the average Jedi's combative prowess, but you're not 100% correct here either. Your point would have merit if KotORCG wasn't talking about how many Jedi are compelled to become expert swordsmen. It's referring to the number of skilled swordsman, not just the number of Jedi.



Very kind of you to make this distinction now after you claimed that Nihilus destroyed all of the most powerful Jedi on Katarr, leaving only the unskilled for Sion to beat in battle. Pick one or the other.

Besides, do you really think those strongest in the Force went to the Mandalorian Wars? The entire Council chose not to enter the War (I know you don't have to be the most powerful to be on the Council, but generally that's the case), and certain lore keepers etc. also abstained from the war.



So he wasn't as severely hampered as on Mustafar. My point stands.



Butthurt? I'm merely curious as to how far you're willing to take this stuff.

I don't know what's more disheartening; that people still think the crux of my point about Ti's MG feat was her having a staff, which was fairly irrelevant, or that people are still finding it difficult to realise that the feat just isn't that great.
"Adapt it's tactics instantly to any situation." is clearly Stover's traditionally hyperbolic writing style, and doesn't preclude Magnaguards having flaws.

I'm going to guess "incapable of learning from their mistakes" is a typo. Yes, they can learn from their mistakes. That doesn't address the fact that their programming is indeed limited in what it can learn altogether. Nor does the third quote regarding their ability to mimic styles, due to the fact that, again, the crux of the point made in Labyrinth of Evil isn't that Magnaguards find it difficult to adjust to varying lightsaber styles (for they are trained in all 7), but rather that they struggle to comprehend an opponent fighting without style, rather with brutal efficiency.



We see this when Kit Fisto employs his rare brand of Shi-Cho, described as direct, wild, unpredictable and hyper-aggressive, which lets him chop down two MGs before they can respond.

We see this when Ti, unlike in two previous instances where she took anything from 20-30 seconds to dispatch/stalemate one lone MagnaGuard, manages to kill a handful of Magnaguards in short order by rather bluntly thrusting her staff into their faces (heh).

Before she began fighting in that way, while she was using her usual lightsaber forms, she had her hands full with just one MG, and was beaten down and dead to rights by the group of them early on in that clash. She also spent most of that clash running from them.

It's impressive, and it shows both how cunning Ti is and how simple measures can solve larger problems, but that's about it. She isn't capable of mowing down armies of Magnaguards as the likes of Zoltan would like to believe.

LoE presents a perfectly logical and satisfying explanation for why Ti can go from struggling with one MG to taking down a crowd of them in short order. I understand this will never come to be accepted by Ti's most devout followers, but all the same, I like to flex the old debating muscle once in a while and remind you guys not to get your hopes up.

The crux of the point was never about having a staff - it's about, as you just said, her bringing in things that the Magnaguards weren't equipped to counter. That's simply the best form of justification for that suddenly huge discrepancy in performance against the Magnaguards. Regardless of how you try to justify it, the discrepancy exists.

Also, lol @ the Leeland Chee quote. He was describing their own internal process in the event they had to remedy a continuity issue, not giving a troubleshooting method to fans to make their own minds up.

The problem is Ti never struggled with a lone MagnaGuard. There's one point where several MagnaGuards jump on a transport and and we see Shaak engage one, then later leap forwards and engage another(implying she killed the other one).

Then later we see her engaging two, while in an unfavourable terrain and trying to get back to the Chancellor, then it cuts away, then she's facing one... What happened? She likely killed one already. Then, in her engagement with the next MagnaGuard, she's solely defensive and not even focusing that much on it, then she dispatches it in a heartbeat the moment she goes on the offensive.

And beaten down and "dead to rights" by a group? Hardly. She's spent a solid minute, while exhausted from running around Coruscant I may add, keeping them on the defensive and it isn't running from them so much as evading their attacks.

Of course, these are the same MGs that were picked as "Grievous' elite" and have challenged top tiers like Kenobi before.

And Dooku's own inner criticizim about Grievous in one spar he had with the MGs is hardly any indication that suddenly any unpredictable fighter can speedblitz them.

There's one she fights near the trams that takes her a hell of a lot longer to kill, lol.

Where she's consistently leaping over the trams to get to the Chancellor, and only playing defensive, yes?

She kills it in seconds the moment she's actually forced to go on the offensive.

Originally posted by MythLord
Where she's consistently leaping over the trams to get to the Chancellor, and only playing defensive, yes?

She kills it in seconds the moment she's actually forced to go on the offensive.

What are you talking about? It's near midnight now, so I have to hit the sack, but there's one where she's just fighting a Magnaguard for well over ten seconds and doesn't win until she exploits the trams around her and the Guard gets its staff stuck there.

The Chancellor was with Foul Moudama, so she wasn't protecting him at the time.

On the transport, where she fights one, then later we see her leap to another, implying she dropped one(several MGs were dropping from the sky, so its possible). And even disregarding that, Shaak fought the MagnaGuard in the length of time it took for another MG to leap to Foul Moudama, then Moudama to push him... so a second or two? Sure, by IRL scaling thats 10 seconds through video timestamp... but unless this is SpaceBattleForums, we don't count the time of a video in our world as time spent in their world.

Oh you've encountered that as well have you?

Specify, please? What have I(or another user) "encountered"?

Originally posted by MythLord
The problem is Ti never struggled with a lone MagnaGuard. There's one point where several MagnaGuards jump on a transport and and we see Shaak engage one, then later leap forwards and engage another(implying she killed the other one).Are you talking about this part?

https://youtu.be/64-3talVkUA?t=5m1s

Nothing supports the notion that she fought more than one Magnaguard there. Where the hell did this second one come from, and where did the first one go? Were they conjured directly out of your mind, perhaps?

Then she fought one primarily in the train scene, and took a much fatter length of time to destroy it than she did to dispatch five later on. Gotta be pulling something out of your ass if you think there isn't a discrepancy here. Also, again, nothing to suggest she destroyed one in the train scene off-panel. It actually looks more like the second one she TK's is one of the original two who was in the process of looking for her.
Uh, the fight starts, she spends most of the beginning running backwards and "evading", and within twenty seconds she's disarmed and hit several times with weapons which could easily be substituted with lightsaber blades.

https://youtu.be/64-3talVkUA?t=9m26s

That she was tired doesn't mean she did anything noteworthy.

Proof they were the same Magnaguards?

Uh, he's not just criticising the sparring, his internal monologue is describing the limits of their programming. That's abundantly clear. Shall I post it again, in a large font no less? I think I'll have to:

"Dooku had taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling - - in the Jedi arts - - made them lethal opponents. But they were not invincible, not even Grievous, because they could be confused by unpredictability, and they had no understanding of finesse. A player of dejarik could memorize all the classic openings and countermoves, and still not be a master of the game. Defeat often came at the hands of less experienced players who knew nothing about the traditional strategies. A professional fighter, a combat artist, could be defeated by a cantina brawler who knew nothing about form but everything about ending a conflict quickly, without a thought to winning gracefully or elegantly. Enslavement to form opened one to defeat by the unforeseen. This was often the failing of trained duelists, and it would be the failing of the Jedi Order."
-Labyrinth of Evil

Hey ILS. How've you've been? You know Maul's reputation has fallen quite a bit in... welll... everywhere!

Do you plan to make a comeback or have you realized the futility of your efforts?

1. They were seen dropping out of the sky, honey. Maybe pay attention? But sure, it happens so often that a person leaps to one of their opponents, leaving another one that may target one of her allies, the Chancellor or herself while they're distracted, unguarded... Right? And even going by your logic, I already countered her exchange with said MagnaGuard happened in a slightly longer space of time it took an MG to leap to Foul Moudama, and then for Moudama to push it. Not at all a long time.

2. There were several MGs targetting all of the Jedi, so we don't know if the one she pushed is the same one from before -- it might be, or it might not be. But the fact remains she engaged two and it cut away and she was facing one and she was leaping all over the place. If that was the second MagnaGuard looking for her, he would've found her when she jumped all over the place.

3. That quote doesn't say anything about their programming, lmao. Dooku notes their programming, his training and knowledge of the Jedi arts made them lethal opponents. Then he says they're not invincible because they can get confused and notes that is due to a lack of experience... But the MagnaGuards Ti fought were the best of the best, clearly not lacking experience, from which they learn. And Dooku's monologue spawned from overseeing Grievous' spar with the 'Guards and noting he's using simple "power moves" rather than the unorthodox, which the Count always encoraged Grievous to use... It's him being mad at GG and the MGs, more than anything.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Hey ILS. How've you've been? You know Maul's reputation has fallen quite a bit in... welll... everywhere!

Do you plan to make a comeback or have you realized the futility of your efforts? Trying to convince any number of people of anything for a protracted period of time is futile; this is why repeat offenders like Wollf return to their old Ti arguments every time I don't participate in these threads.

That said, I'm having a blast.

Tbh you hold the exact mindset as me.

Realization of ultimate futility but willingness to engage for a surge of brief entertainment in your life.

Sorry for getting so butt hurt at you all that time ago. I had not adjusted to KMC at the time.

I'm adapting more to counter your anti-Ti brigade because you're mad at Reti saying Shaak is > Maul.

Originally posted by MythLord
1. They were seen dropping out of the sky, honey. Maybe pay attention? But sure, it happens so often that a person leaps to one of their opponents, leaving another one that may target one of her allies, the Chancellor or herself while they're distracted, unguarded... Right? And even going by your logic, I already countered her exchange with said MagnaGuard happened in a slightly longer space of time it took an MG to leap to Foul Moudama, and then for Moudama to push it. Not at all a long time. They were indeed, and every time they did, we were made aware. Just like we were made aware whenever one was killed, and a new MG was engaging Ti.

Apart from, apparently, in the several off-panel moments you're referencing where Ti dispatches a MG and a new one takes its place, literally falling out of the sky. Gee, sounds convincing man. There's even a long-distance shot where a Magnaguard clings onto the transport yet we see no new additions and you want me to believe there was one anyway? Talk about wishful thinking.
We see her briefly combat two, then one for a longer period of time, then a second MG finds her, and she TKs it to death. The discrepancies remains that 1. it would be exceptional for any MG deaths to be off-panel and 2. she took a long time to dispatch just one of them, opposed to crowds.

As a wise man once said: "Maybe pay attention?"
Dooku doesn't attribute shit to the Magnaguards lack of experience, he used the analogy that professional fighters often lost to less experienced fighters who used crude but effective methods.

Still waiting on that proof that these Magnaguards were the same IG-101, 102 etc that fought the dream duo. Also, fab conjecture on the end; though I'm not sure how mentioning that Dooku was watching them sparring detracts from the point that he's criticising them on the whole, which is abundantly clear if you just read.

As in, there is literally nothing to suggest his criticism was isolated to that sparring match.

And hear da booty go smack.

Expect a response in a few hours, ILS, I got some studyin' to do.

Then get the hell out of here!

Originally posted by ILS
They were indeed, and every time they did, we were made aware. Just like we were made aware whenever one was killed, and a new MG was engaging Ti.

Ah, so an appeal to ignorance, wonderful. We know MagnaGuards kept spamming the Jedi and we also know that Shaak leaps to another MagnaGuard... it seems fairly reasonable another appeared or she just left one standing around.

Originally posted by ILS
Apart from, apparently, in the several off-panel moments you're referencing where Ti dispatches a MG and a new one takes its place, literally falling out of the sky. Gee, sounds convincing man. There's even a long-distance shot where a Magnaguard clings onto the transport yet we see no new additions and you want me to believe there was one anyway? Talk about wishful thinking.

I'm referencing two. That long distance shot can maybe last a second or so and happens after we see MagnaGuards landing on the transport.

And I like how you're ignoring that this was, at best, a few second exchange in-universe. It's probably about as long as her exchange with the two MGs here:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111233150/4616390-9915425756-vZ028.gif

Originally posted by ILS
We see her briefly combat two, then one for a longer period of time, then a second MG finds her, and she TKs it to death. The discrepancies remains that 1. it would be exceptional for any MG deaths to be off-panel and 2. she took a long time to dispatch just one of them, opposed to crowds.

Again, if it was an old one actively looking for her, it would've found her the moment she and the other MG leaped across the entire battlefield. Ergo, it's a new one and Shaak killed the old one.

1. An appeal to ignorance, ultimately.

2. It took her maybe 10 seconds -- again, our time, not theirs which is probably a few seconds -- to actually kill this 'Guard. Prior to that, she leaps around, looking for the Chancellor, and just plays defensive with the Guard.

Originally posted by ILS
As a wise man once said: "Maybe pay attention?"
Dooku doesn't attribute shit to the Magnaguards lack of experience, he used the analogy that professional fighters often lost to less experienced fighters who used crude but effective methods.

Sorry, I missread the part about experience in a rush. But Dooku didn't say this was a fault of their programming, just that they weren't invincible and they can be confused, and Grievous can be confused as well, as stated in the same quote. Yet he's one of the most adaptable fighters known to the entire SW universe.

They learn from experience, and the MGs Grievous brought were his best.

Originally posted by ILS
Still waiting on that proof that these Magnaguards were the same IG-101, 102 etc that fought the dream duo.

I mean, they were the exact same MGs that accompanied Grievous to Coruscant, but I believe that there's a quote saying it was Grievous' finest batch or something like that.

We also know Grievous hand-picked them for what he viewed as the Confederacy's "greatest assigment", so he definitely chose the best.

Originally posted by ILS
Also, fab conjecture on the end; though I'm not sure how mentioning that Dooku was watching them sparring detracts from the point that he's criticising them on the whole, which is abundantly clear if you just read.

Because Dooku was "disgusted" that Grievous and his MGs weren't using the unorthodox, so he thought about how unpredictability is crude, yet effective, and why it should be used.

Found it funny that me asking for proof of off-panel events is an appeal to ignorance.

Next up on retard news

Motherfvck to you

Originally posted by ILS
Found it funny that me asking for proof of off-panel events is an appeal to ignorance.

Next up on retard news

You didn't ask for proof, you were claiming that more MagnaGuards and that Ti didn't appear cuz the only time they did we saw them do it.