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Vader and Kun put aside their vs. forum rivalry and target The Cancer. Starting distance is 20 meters.

Kun and Vader.

Team wins.
We then we argue over who's the MVP.

Kun is but both are superior to Outlander. :P

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Kun is

It'll probably be like Luke and Krayt, with Vader being the tank and Kun spamming sorcery.



Obviously.

People assume that numbers make lot of difference. They do not necessarily.

Both Darth Vader and Exar Kun cannot withstand powers of Vitiate. It is that simple.

When you have two opponents of comparable or rivaling power rather then just one it makes a vast difference.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
People assume that numbers make lot of difference. They do not necessarily.

Both Darth Vader and Exar Kun cannot withstand powers of Vitiate. It is that simple.

I haven't seen anything from Vitiate that can overwhelm Vader, so either post something that's comparable to Vader's Rebels defensive showings, in a combat scenario, or I'll just assume this is unsubstantiated.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I haven't seen anything from Vitiate that can overwhelm Vader, so either post something that's comparable to Vader's Rebels defensive showings, in a combat scenario, or I'll just assume this is unsubstantiated. i haven't seen anything from vader that would begin to bother vitiate.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I haven't seen anything from Vitiate that can overwhelm Vader, so either post something that's comparable to Vader's Rebels defensive showings, in a combat scenario, or I'll just assume this is unsubstantiated.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
When you have two opponents of comparable or rivaling power rather then just one it makes a vast difference.
Darth Vader and Exar Kun are not in the league of Vitiate. It is that simple.

As for the numbers; a single lion can kill two hyenas without much difficulty.

Concession accepted.

I don't concede to idiotic comments.

What has Vitiate done that would let him overwhelm Vader?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What has Vitiate done that would let him overwhelm Vader?
What has Darth Vader done that puts him in the league of Vitiate?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What has Darth Vader done that puts him in the league of Vitiate?

Choking out and toying with Starkiller, who was able to blow apart half of a 300 meter long frigate, one-shot hundreds of stormtroopers with telekinesis, redirect a falling star destroyer, etc.

And then getting beat by Starkiller? Vader is nowhere near vitiate.

Vitiate would defeat either alone, but not both at once.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Choking out and toying with Starkiller, who was able to blow apart half of a 300 meter long frigate, one-shot hundreds of stormtroopers with telekinesis, redirect a falling star destroyer, etc.
You make it sound like as if Darth Vader soundly defeated Starkiller. I recall the battle a bit differently. Momentary gains in a battle make no difference.

Darth Vader has nothing on Vitiate. Neither does Starkiller.

Damn, people are still oblivious about a fight that came out 6 years ago.

Originally posted by Trocity
Vitiate would defeat either alone, but not both at once.
Vitiate's AoE attacks will get the job done.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Concession accepted.

**** you, mang.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You make it sound like as if Darth Vader soundly defeated Starkiller. I recall the battle a bit differently. Momentary gains in a battle make no difference.

Darth Vader has nothing on Vitiate. Neither does Starkiller.

The creator outright stated that Vader let him win. And this is still before his prime.

Originally posted by Trocity
Vitiate would defeat either alone, but not both at once.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The creator outright stated that Vader let him win. And this is still before his prime.
Provide evidence.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8550447&postcount=5038

I always got the impression that Galen Marek > Starkiller. A clone could not be as powerful as the original.

I always felt that you are cancer.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I always felt that you are cancer.
Sorry to disappoint you but Galen Marek defeated Darth Vader, soundly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Vader and Exar Kun are not in the league of Vitiate. It is that simple.

As for the numbers; a single lion can kill two hyenas without much difficulty.

I think that's where we differ. I don't believe Vitiate outclasses either of them.

Also while your analogy was an interesting animal fact it doesn't have any relevancy to the actual fight.

@Zoltan: You understand that Galen's one and only attempt at Dun Moch failed and only served to enrage Vader and allowed him to land the only hits on Galen he got in the entire fight, right?

If you have evidence to the contrary I'd appreciate it if you posted it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I always got the impression that Galen Marek > Starkiller. A clone could not be as powerful as the original.

Galen is indeed more powerful then the Starkiller clone based on their relative performance against Vader and his ability to challenge Sidious.

The quote people have been using for years to say Starkiler and Galen are equals has recently been disproved.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8550447&postcount=5038

The quote provided in the thread comes from Witwer someone who has no auority on canon. I've already addressed this in another thread yet you continue to bring it up to justify your idiotic stances.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
**** you, mang.
It's not my fault that Vitiate is terrible.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The quote provided in the thread comes from Witwer someone who has no auority on canon. I've already addressed this in another thread yet you continue to bring it up to justify your idiotic stances.

I love how about a post with over 2k words all you can say is "nuuu, Witwur haz no canun authoritah".

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I love how about a post with over 2k words all you can say is "nuuu, Witwur haz no canun authoritah".

Concession accepted.

Underestimating someone is still a victory. You're dumb.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Underestimating someone is still a victory. You're dumb.

Doesn't make him better tho, and neither would he win a majority out of 10.

You're http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Dumb-Dumber-To-Jeff-Daniels-Interview.jpg

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Doesn't make him better tho, and neither would he win a majority out of 10.

You're http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Dumb-Dumber-To-Jeff-Daniels-Interview.jpg

Me: You're dumb
You: You're dumb.

Killer response

Also, nobody said it makes him better but your only argument was that he won because he was underestimated. That's not an argument but good try.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I love how about a post with over 2k words all you can say is "nuuu, Witwur haz no canun authoritah".

Concession accepted.

Because I already spent hours of my life typing up posts in another thread that addressed the entirety of the post to the link you provided. I'm simply explaining to you why the section you quote specifically has no legs upon which to stand.

You are already aware of this of course but you'll pretend like you're not in an attempt to distract from the point, that being that you have no way to counter my point.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Me: You're dumb
You: You're dumb.

Killer response

Also, nobody said it makes him better but your only argument was that he won because he was underestimated. That's not an argument but good try.

He's already quoted the same link to me multiple times in the past. I'm not going to bother to type up paragraphs in response every single time he does it.

Instead I'll just point out why he's wrong about that individual claim he's making to which his response will be to mislead and distract never actually providing a rebuttal.

I don't care if he's wrong. You're allowed to be wrong. You're not allowed to be stupid about it.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Me: You're dumb
You: You're dumb.

Killer response

Damn, you like scoring own goals, do you?

PS: That's Dumber, not Dumb you shitstain.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Also, nobody said it makes him better but your only argument was that he won because he was underestimated. That's not an argument but good try.

How is it not an argument lmao. People saying that Galen is more powerful than Starkiller because of their performance against Vader. But Galen had 2 advantages against Vader that Starkiller lacked. And neither came from his power in the force.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Because I already spent hours of my life typing up posts in another thread that addressed the entirety of the post to the link you provided. I'm simply explaining to you why the section you quote specifically has no legs upon which to stand.

You are already aware of this of course but you'll pretend like you're not in an attempt to distract from the point, that being that you have no way to counter my point.

You have no point. It doesn't matter that Witwer is not a canon authority if the damn novel supports what he said.

Oh wonderful, so you do admit you're parroting my insults or responding with "I know you are but what am I"? Excellent, we can move on.


How is it an argument?
If you're claiming the only reason Galen won was because of dun moch and being underestimated, prove it. All of Galen's showings do support his superiority in the force though.

You mean his lack of knowledge on Vader's true capabilities and Vader's lack of knowledge on his which was a shared disadvantage?

Or are you referring to his failed Dun Moch attempt which enraged Vader and him to momentarily gain an advantage in the fight and didn't serve to benefit Galen in any way?

Lol.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You have no point. It doesn't matter that Witwer is not a canon authority if the damn novel supports what he said.

Except the novel doesn't support what he says in the slightest. And even if it did it wouldn't make his statements true since he's not a canon authority. I don't understand what's so hard about this for you.

I explained, in depth, how the novel supports Witwer's words quite emphatically. However seeing as no one seems to bother to read my assessment, I might just post it directly to KMC, to better savour your tears.

Beni, read through the thread. I've read your blog multiple times as Zoltan tends to post it whenever he comes up against me. I've already written several dissertations on it.

He just tends to ignore that fact in favor of his own feebly constructed reality and choosing to, instead of responding to my points, continue to post the same link I've already countered over and over.

You like to do that a lot don't you Beni? Post something and then claim it as indisputable fact?

It doesn't help when someone like Zoltan latches onto it and posts it as proof of his stances in and of themselves.

I have no beef with Beni here but it's rather annoying how Zoltan tends to post links to other people's work as his point rather then come up with his own responses.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You mean his lack of knowledge on Vader's true capabilities and Vader's lack of knowledge on his which was a shared disadvantage?

Or are you referring to his failed Dun Moch attempt which enraged Vader and him to momentarily gain an advantage in the fight and didn't serve to benefit Galen in any way?

Lol.

Right lmao...


"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

I'm glad we've moved to Vader And Kun from just Vader vs Vitiate so quickly.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I have no beef with Beni here but it's rather annoying how Zoltan tends to post links to other people's work as his point rather then come up with his own responses.

You are not important enough to bother. And why should I anyway, when it's already done.

Let me guess, you don't even use wikipedia for school because everything have to be done 100% by yourself?

Well there's so much of Ellimist's wank and stupidity that can be tolerated before we advance our thinking. At least this is a more realistic matchup.


Great, so you established that Dun Moch had no bearing on Galen's victory. Good.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Right lmao...


"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

Thank you for proving my point.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
How is it an argument?
If you're claiming the only reason Galen won was because of dun moch and being underestimated, prove it. All of Galen's showings do support his superiority in the force though.

You mean how Vader trashed him on Corellia for example? Yeah definitely shows Galen is more powerful.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You are not important enough to bother. And why should I anyway, when it's already done.

Let me guess, you don't even use wikipedia for school because everything have to be done 100% by yourself?

Because as I've said you've already posted that link to me and I already responded with a full dissertation countering every post. You never replied back. Lol.

I don't use Wikipedia for school because I'm taking college courses where we have to actually have official sources that are university mandated. xD

Wonderful distraction

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You mean how Vader trashed him on Corellia for example? Yeah definitely shows Galen is more powerful.

You mean how he completely catches Galen off guard with his betrayal and cheap shots him by slamming a stone table into him rather then overwhelming him with his own power?

His Dun Moch was useless. We're not the illiterate ones..

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You mean how he completely catches Galen off guard with his betrayal and cheap shots him?

I mean how he oneshots Kota, has a verbal conversation with Galen, throws the table through 3 stone pillars and still almost oneshots Galen.

I'm going to have to ask you the same.

Because CLEARLY if you were literate you would have taken note that Galen attempts Dun Moch at the beginning of the quote you provided, that it then subsequently backfires serving to enrage Vader and allowing to have one of his only moments of success during the fight before Galen admits that he can't beat Vader using hatred.

The text then goes on to show what Galen's revised strategy since his Dun Moch backfired.

"Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.

"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound." - The Force Unleashed.

Vitiate dies

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm going to have to ask you the same.

Because CLEARLY if you were literate you would have taken note that Galen attempts Dun Moch at the beginning of the quote you provided, that it then subsequently backfires serving to enrage Vader and allowing to have one of his only moments of success during the fight before Galen admits that he can't beat Vader using hatred.

The text then goes on to show what Galen's revised strategy since his Dun Moch backfired.

"Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.

"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound." - The Force Unleashed.

http://i.imgur.com/edBQBeJ.gif

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I mean how he oneshots Kota, has a verbal conversation with Galen, throws the table through 3 stone pillars and still almost oneshots Galen.

I believe this is the scene you're reffering to?

"Starkiller stood framed by the pillars in the northern wall of the eagle's nest. He was frozen in the pose of one thoroughly beaten yet barely, defiantly, contained. His eyes blazed. His fists shook.

Darth Vader inclined his head. "You have done well, my apprentice. "

Bail Organa hissed audibly between his teeth. If looks could kill, Starkiller would have dropped on the spot. Garm Bel Iblis had turned a deep shade of purple, and Mon Mothma was as rigid and pale as a sculpture in ice.

Before Starkiller could reach out for where his lightsaber lay fallen on the ground, the stone conference table lifted into the air and hurled itself at him. Crashing through three of the pillars and catching him squarely in the chest, it drove him out into the snow. Ignoring everyone else in the room, Vader strode heavily after him, lightsaber raised." - The Force Unleashed.

The text states he's in shock and attempting to retrieve his lightsaber so that he'll be able to engage Vader rather then be left weaponless. It's clearly not an accurate representation of how an actual fight between the two would go down as we can see clearly from their fight on the Death Star.

@Zoltan: The nerve he struck allowing Vader to actually gain an advantage against Galen where before they had been dueling evenly and then causing Galen to reassess his strategy. Lol.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
http://i.imgur.com/edBQBeJ.gif

It is indeed.

@Zoltan: The point of Dun Moch is to UNBALANCE your opponent. Not enrage them.

If your Dun Moch enrages your opponent and they start doing BETTER against you that's not a sign that it was successful.

If that were the case Dooku's Dun Moch could be considered top tier. Lol

This is getting kind of pitiful tbh.

Those are are examples of Galen using Dun Moch those are examples of him drawing on the Lightside to defeat Vader resisting his hatred for the man who had taken everything from him. As we see in the quote you provided Galen's attempted Dun Moch failed which is why he decided to reassess his strategy.

He manages to enrage Vader which allowed him to land a few strikes on Galen*

He then realizes taunting him is not working out successfully and revises his strategy.

"Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader." - The Force Unleashed.

The rest of the fight is him telling Vader how he's going to free him from Sidious's hold and that he himself is free of the Darkside rather then taunting Vader for being weak or having no father as he had done previously.

Together they might be able to take Vitiate, maybe.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He then realizes taunting him is not working out successfully and revises his strategy.

The rest of the fight is him taunting Vader for being weak or having no father as he had done previously.

He then realizes taunting him is not working, keeps tauning him anway.

Lmao Syn you are below shit tier.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You like to do that a lot don't you Beni? Post something and then claim it as indisputable fact? Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Beni, read through the thread. I've read your blog multiple times as Zoltan tends to post it whenever he comes up against me. I've already written several dissertations on it.

He just tends to ignore that fact in favor of his own feebly constructed reality and choosing to, instead of responding to my points, continue to post the same link I've already countered over and over. Link me tbh.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He then realizes taunting him is not working, keeps tauning him anway.

Lmao Syn you are below shit tier.

And now I know why people tell me you're a shit debater. You aren't even bothering to address the point instead focusing on posting errors which I fixed a second later.

F*ck off.

Edit: F*ck you twice actually. You cut my original post anyways @sshole.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Link me tbh.

I looked for it as soon as Zoltan brought it up tbh but the thread is too far back and I can't remember where he posted it.

Provide a brief summary then.

Honestly just bring up the points you find relevant and I'll counter them from there.

If you'd really like though I can give you a comprehensive post over PM.

Watch out, benny's going to give you an essay and then declare it unequivocal fact.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And now I know why people tell me you're a shit debater. You aren't even bothering to address the point instead focusing on posting errors which I fixed a second later.

F*ck off.

Edit: F*ck you twice actually. You cut my original post anyways @sshole.

https://m.popkey.co/d1f7f5/xR3KO.gif

Me pointing out that you literally edited portions of my post is a burn on me?

Well, congrats I guess.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Watch out, benny's going to give you an essay and then declare it unequivocal fact. Originally posted by cs_zoltan
https://m.popkey.co/d1f7f5/xR3KO.gif

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Honestly just bring up the points you find relevant and I'll counter them from there.

If you'd really like though I can give you a comprehensive post over PM. PM me tbh.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
https://m.popkey.co/d1f7f5/xR3KO.gif
This am belonging to me now.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
PM me tbh.

I can't. You gotta PM me.

I don't think that's Dun Moch. Or at least not intentional Dun Moch.

I think it's simply him stating his intentions to Vader and he's having greater success because he's let go of his hatred as it states in the text.

In either case I find it highly unlikely that Vader's going to let statements like that get to him and affect his performance.

Called it.

That's definitely Dun Moch, or Inverse Dun Moch. Also, "statements like that" very clearly affected his performance.

I'm just reading the graphic novel now, and honestly, Galen marek is a shitty duelist. The dude can barely even overpower an imperial guard without his Force abilties: damn

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's definitely Dun Moch, or Inverse Dun Moch. Also, "statements like that" very clearly affected his performance. Quite, and Dun Moch is not a power exclusive to the dark side.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's definitely Dun Moch, or Inverse Dun Moch. Also, "statements like that" very clearly affected his performance.

Look at the text.

"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot." - The Force Unleashed.

It says WITH A NEW STRENGTH OF HIS OWN he manages to push Vader onto his back foot. It make no mention of Vader weakening, and why would he?

All Galen's said by this point is "I pity you." And "I'm going to teach you something."

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I'm just reading the graphic novel now, and honestly, Galen marek is a shitty duelist. The dude can barely even overpower an imperial guard without his Force abilties: damn

Or it's indicative of the skill of the Imperial Guard he faced? :/

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Look at the text.

"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot." - The Force Unleashed.

It says WITH A NEW STRENGTH OF HIS OWN he manages to push Vader onto his back foot. It make no mention of Vader weakening, and why would he?

All Galen's said by this point is "I pity you." And "I'm going to teach you something." The fact that he "tried to pull away" suggests otherwise tbh.

And if some petty taunts ticked Vader off, why wouldn't these hard hitting burns unbalance him?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The fact that he "tried to pull away" suggests otherwise tbh.

And if some petty taunts ticked Vader off, why wouldn't these hard hitting burns unbalance him?

Do you mean in the text I provided or somewhere else?

"Hard hitting burns." I don't know if that was a pun about Mustafar but I'll say bravo nonetheless.

The comment that ticked Vader off was the "Was that how your father treated you?"

Everything else slid right off his back.

That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

And exactly, it was a petty and empty taunt, yet Vader effected Vader, so why when Marek's taunts actually have meaning, he not be effected? I'm seeing no evidence that suggests these "slid right off his back" as you claim.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Or it's indicative of the skill of the Imperial Guard he faced? :/

What a Cicrle jerk. In the Graphic novel at least, he has no real dueling feats that establish him as a master warrior. Even the Proxxy droid basically forces him to use his Lightning when taking on the Kenobi model - despite being far weaker than Kenobi himself.

The full quote starts out with Galen gaining the advantage before any meaningful comments are exchanged and Galen GAINING strength rather then Vader weakening.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot.

Then it continues on with Galen making his meaningful comments.

"You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot." - The Force Unleashed.

Note that Vader was already on his back foot before Galen said anything meaningful to him. I find it more likely that Vader tried to pull back because he knew Galen had the advantage in their duel, not because Galen's words affected him in any meaningful way.

So because he knew Galen had an advantage, he opted to concede a further advantage by pulling out of the blade lock?

Regardless, you didn't answer my question, I can only assume that's because you don't have one.

He opted to withdraw from a lightsaber engagement he was losing perhaps to further assault him with Force attacks or maneuver the fight to an area of the room that would better favor him.

What was your question? Why would it mean he wouldn't be effected by Galen's words?

If that's your question, then here's my answer.

In no way am I saying that it's impossible they didn't, I'm saying that it's rather unlikely, and that if it did, any effect it had on Vader's performance in the fight would have been negligible. I believe this to be the case based on the fact that Vader by this point has had nearly two decades to solidify himself in the Darkside and by this point has already grown to take pleasure in his actions as Darth Vader. The things Galen is telling him are probably things he hears all the times from Rebels captured for interrogation or the media outlets of Rebellious planets.

I may be incorrect but I believe even on the matter of Padme he'd come to accept that she had brought her fate down upon herself and deserved what she got for betraying him. Could be wrong about that though.

Regardless when the text is stating that Galen is gaining in strength and driving Vader back before he makes any comments that should reasonably be affecting Vader's performance I don't find it a likely outcome that Galen continuing to make comments that might be construed as more meaningful is going to be the reason for the ultimate outcome of the fight, I.E. Vader's defeat.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
What a Cicrle jerk. In the Graphic novel at least, he has no real dueling feats that establish him as a master warrior. Even the Proxxy droid basically forces him to use his Lightning when taking on the Kenobi model - despite being far weaker than Kenobi himself.

Luckily the graphic novel is not the only source pertaining to TFU or Galen's technical skill.

And that is not the case in the novel.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He opted to withdraw from a lightsaber engagement he was losing perhaps to further assault him with Force attacks or maneuver the fight to an area of the room that would better favor him.

What was your question? Why would it mean he wouldn't be effected by Galen's words?

If that's your question, then here's my answer.

In no way am I saying that it's impossible they didn't, I'm saying that it's rather unlikely, and that if it did, any effect it had on Vader's performance in the fight would have been negligible. I believe this to be the case based on the fact that Vader by this point has had nearly two decades to solidify himself in the Darkside and by this point has already grown to take pleasure in his actions as Darth Vader. The things Galen is telling him are probably things he hears all the times from Rebels captured for interrogation or the media outlets of Rebellious planets.

I may be incorrect but I believe even on the matter of Padme he'd come to accept that she had brought her fate down upon herself and deserved what she got for betraying him. Could be wrong about that though. Perhaps but that makes it a conciliatory gesture, Vader let Marek win the blade lock because Vader didn't think he could win, which reflects a uncharacteristic lack of determination on his part, of a will to fight. This being within the contexts of Marek attacking his convictions, just as Luke did in RotJ, and to similar effect.

And while I concede that Marek himself evidently underwent an increment in his own strength and confidence, to dismiss the possibility of Vader undergoing a similar shift in mindset strikes me as insensible, when a meaningless taunt was enough to tick Vader off just prior.

You say that Vader are "things he hears all the time" but frankly that's rather unlikely, because what Marek is saying to Vader is profoundly personal. tThe Rebels no nothing of Vader's origins or his personal struggle, at best they can call him a monster but that's not what Marek is doing, he is calling Vader out on his convictions to be a monster because he knows they are lacking, that in reality he is a pitiful "creature" being manipulated by the Emperor like Marek was. Marek is highlighting perhaps the most fundamental contradiction in Vader, namely that he serves the person he hates the most, and that's got to impact his convictions.True but between a contest of relative equals its not surprising that with a surge of strength Marek would have been initially able to do so, there is a difference between that and blowing through his defences entirely.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Perhaps but that makes it a conciliatory gesture, Vader let Marek win the blade lock because Vader didn't think he could win, which reflects a uncharacteristic lack of determination on his part, of a will to fight. This being within the contexts of Marek attacking his convictions, just as Luke did in RotJ, and to similar effect.

And while I concede that Marek himself evidently underwent an increment in his own strength and confidence, to dismiss the possibility of Vader undergoing a similar shift in mindset strikes me as insensible, when a meaningless taunt was enough to tick Vader off just prior.

You say that Vader are "things he hears all the time" but frankly that's rather unlikely, because what Marek is saying to Vader is profoundly personal. tThe Rebels no nothing of Vader's origins or his personal struggle, at best they can call him a monster but that's not what Marek is doing, he is calling Vader out on his convictions to be a monster because he knows they are lacking, that in reality he is a pitiful "creature" being manipulated by the Emperor like Marek was. Marek is highlighting perhaps the most fundamental contradiction in Vader, namely that he serves the person he hates the most, and that's got to impact his convictions.True but between a contest of relative equals its not surprising that with a surge of strength Marek would have been initially able to do so, there is a difference between that and blowing through his defences entirely.

Or a characteristic which he demonstrates often, intelligence and awareness of his own capabilities and that of his opponent.

A comment related to his family ( specifically a father, something he himself never had and something he himself never got to be ) a topic he's always been touchy about.

Granted but we know that Xizor and various Imperial Moffs have called out Vader for being a slave to the Emperor, no more then an attack with no ambition of his own. While they're not personally calling him out for serving a man he hates neither is Galen. Whether or not you believe comments like those effect Vader profoundly and specifically in combat is up to your personal view point.

I can agree to that.

With his talismans and with Vitiate being on neutral ground, Kun compares to him. Vader's powerful and tanky enough to not be slaughtered, either. Vitiate can beat either, but he can't invest all of his power or attention on any one individual here without being curbed by the other. He loses this one.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Or a characteristic which he demonstrates often, intelligence and awareness of his own capabilities and that of his opponent.Yes Vader acts intelligently, but retreat is hardly in his vocabulary, nor is it characteristic for him to be intimidated by his apprentice or attempt aggression before concession, so to speak. Often in the most dire of circumstances Vader opts to go down fighting. At least from a narrative perspective this is how Vader is presented, so however logical an explanation a retreat on Vader's part may be, "Vader tried to pull away" resonates with an intimidation and even desperation that just doesn't suit his image. And which do you think would hit harder, the fact he never had a daddy or the crushing reality of his present situation?

It's pretty obvious that the latter is an infinitely more "touchy" subject.Likening Marek's words to simply calling him a slave is the oversimplify what he's saying. You say he's not calling him out for serving a man he hates and yet Marek seems to have instinctive knowledge that that is the case considering what he says:

"You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you."

That's hitting rather close to the bone in regards to Vader's reality. And within those contexts what he says next:

"You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel."

Is rather more hard hitting that simply "hurr durr your Palpy's slave" wouldn't you think? Especially within the contexts of a lightsaber duel where your mental state critical. Regardless, I want to build on this point by looking at the final moments of the fight, which I find particularly telling:
So Marek lands a blow, but there is "no blood", and Vader being Vader, such an injury isn't necessarily going to be crippling, nor does he appear to be crippled by it.
Then Vader laughs, and in it "the apprentice heard a decade and half of torture and abuse" with dovetails rather nicely with Marek's previous attack on Vader's convictions, as a pitiful and broken slave to the Emperor. And who is he mocking here, Marek, or himself?.Then Vader pretty much gets evicerated, despite having suffered only a single injury, and having powered through far worse in the past, it appears that he's practically given up, or at the very least lost all confidence and conviction. Most telling is the final line that "His power over the apprentice, however, had gone", Marek has achieved the firm psychological edge.
Then he proceeds to whoop Vader's ass, telekinetically dominating him with pitiful resistance, this is again the same Vader who has previously performed under such circumstances, here he getting ragdolled like a sack of shit, he's barely putting up a fight.Now we have another telling moment. Instead of Marek finding a raging angry Sith Lord with glowing yellow eyes, spitting in his face and what not in the face of defeat, he's a "pathetic, hairless thing with undisguised weariness". Vader is tired, and not just physically but evidently mentally, Marek has broken his spirit.Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Whether or not you believe comments like those effect Vader profoundly and specifically in combat is up to your personal view point. This is true, but that it did not is yours. Ultimately these are the indications I'm getting from the text, and again the psychological aspect of a duel cannot be underestimated, not when we have Anakin destroying Dooku, Kenobi defeating Anakin, Kanan defeating the Inquisitor, and especially Luke defeating Vader (remember, Starkiller was intended to be a photonegative of Skywalker) where all determined primarily by a mental advantage, as where many others contests.

The idea that it played no part in Vader's defeat therefore, despite the psychology of the opponents being a significant part of the narrative, and of SW in general, strikes me as a misreading.

I'l respond to you tomorrow. I'm debating several youtube commenters at the moment and they seem stubborn.

After a brief scan though I can tell your post is going to be both an interesting read that relies slightly too much on assumption but is insightful nonetheless.

Make it Valkorion then we have a matchup

Managed to deal with the fodder.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
After a brief scan though I can tell your post is going to be both an interesting and informed read that opens my eyes to the truth. Fixed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes Vader acts intelligently, but retreat is hardly in his vocabulary, nor is it characteristic for him to be intimidated by his apprentice or attempt aggression before concession, so to speak. Often in the most dire of circumstances Vader opts to go down fighting. At least from a narrative perspective this is how Vader is presented, so however logical an explanation a retreat on Vader's part may be, "Vader tried to pull away" resonates with an intimidation and even desperation that just doesn't suit his image. And which do you think would hit harder, the fact he never had a daddy or the crushing reality of his present situation?

It's pretty obvious that the latter is an infinitely more "touchy" subject.Likening Marek's words to simply calling him a slave is the oversimplify what he's saying. You say he's not calling him out for serving a man he hates and yet Marek seems to have instinctive knowledge that that is the case considering what he says:

"You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you."

That's hitting rather close to the bone in regards to Vader's reality. And within those contexts what he says next:

"You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel."

Is rather more hard hitting that simply "hurr durr your Palpy's slave" wouldn't you think? Especially within the contexts of a lightsaber duel where your mental state critical. Regardless, I want to build on this point by looking at the final moments of the fight, which I find particularly telling:
So Marek lands a blow, but there is "no blood", and Vader being Vader, such an injury isn't necessarily going to be crippling, nor does he appear to be crippled by it.
Then Vader laughs, and in it "the apprentice heard a decade and half of torture and abuse" with dovetails rather nicely with Marek's previous attack on Vader's convictions, as a pitiful and broken slave to the Emperor. And who is he mocking here, Marek, or himself?.Then Vader pretty much gets evicerated, despite having suffered only a single injury, and having powered through far worse in the past, it appears that he's practically given up, or at the very least lost all confidence and conviction. Most telling is the final line that "His power over the apprentice, however, had gone", Marek has achieved the firm psychological edge.
Then he proceeds to whoop Vader's ass, telekinetically dominating him with pitiful resistance, this is again the same Vader who has previously performed under such circumstances, here he getting ragdolled like a sack of shit, he's barely putting up a fight.Now we have another telling moment. Instead of Marek finding a raging angry Sith Lord with glowing yellow eyes, spitting in his face and what not in the face of defeat, he's a "pathetic, hairless thing with undisguised weariness". Vader is tired, and not just physically but evidently mentally, Marek has broken his spirit.This is true, but that it did not is yours. Ultimately these are the indications I'm getting from the text, and again the psychological aspect of a duel cannot be underestimated, not when we have Anakin destroying Dooku, Kenobi defeating Anakin, Kanan defeating the Inquisitor, and especially Luke defeating Vader (remember, Starkiller was intended to be a photonegative of Skywalker) where all determined primarily by a mental advantage, as where many others contests.

The idea that it played no part in Vader's defeat therefore, despite the psychology of the opponents being a significant part of the narrative, and of SW in general, strikes me as a misreading.

On this point I have to heartily disagree. Retreat is certainly in his vocabulary. He retreated from a large mob of non force sensitives, fell back under the onslaught of multiple Jedi and has given ground in many of his duels.

I believe that thinking about his dead child and how his own actions caused him to never get to be a father himself might very well hit as hard as Galen confronting him with the reality of his situation something he himself is very much aware of as evidenced by Galen's existence in the first place.

Fair enough. The added comment by Galen of having broke down who he was before probably would have affected him more then offhand comments by Imperial rivals though as I've mentioned Vader is not ignorant to this fact which is why he trained Galen in the first place and cloned him against upon Galen's death and why he went searching for items such as the Muur Talisman.

I take that line to mean Galen is remembering a decade and a half of torture he himself has suffered at the hands of Vader.

To elaborate the reason I believe it's referencing Galen's thoughts is from the passage directly after.

"Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking." - The Force Unleashed.

I ask myself, why would Galen become angry upon realizing Vader's suffered a decade and a half of torture and abuse? Because he still did the same to him? Unlikely imo and made even more unlikely when you consider the text calls Vader's laugh "mocking."

Now this is where I have to point out that you're relying heavily on assumption of Vader's mental state. It could simply be that Galen possessing greater force reserves has simply outlasted him in their high intensity duel to the point Vader can no longer compete similar to Anakin and Dooku this in conjunction with several injuries of unknown severity makes it far more likely that exhaustion and injury are the cause of Vader's lacking lackluster performance rather then a loss of confidence.

Again I'll point you to my above post. I find injury and exhaustion to be a far more likely factor in Vader's performance then a sudden lapse in confidence.

This is the first really solid point I've seen you make. I will say I attribute this more to exhaustion then anything else. Vader's reserves are run dry by this point. But it's likely that he's reflecting on the events that have brought him to this point similar to Dooku. And like Dooku who didn't even bother to say anything as he was about to be executed by Anakin he makes no move beg his master to intervene. He knows he's beaten and he knows begging Vader for mercy would be pointless so what's the point?

While it may have been a factor or played a part I think you're overplaying its importance tbh and reaching in some areas to do so.

Welp. I don't know about you but I don't think there's much more to be had from further discussion aside from us nitpicking each other's posts to gain a minor edge in support of our stances which we ultimately disagree on.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
On this point I have to heartily disagree. Retreat is certainly in his vocabulary. He retreated from a large mob of non force sensitives, fell back under the onslaught of multiple Jedi and has given ground in many of his duels.I'll agree to disagree on this point, as I say from a logical standpoint it can be might have sense, but from a subtextual standpoint I feel the author is indicating something more.Perhaps, but the fact that he is stirred by such emotions only reflects that fact that he is not as mentally stable as one might believe.Sure but within the contexts of the fight his apprentice has become another glorified tool of the Emperor's and he is playing errand boy again, as is often the contexts, no matter what Vader tries the status quo remains unchanged.That's a fair intepretation, but then it begs the question, why is Vader laughing at a time like this? His mocking Marek perhaps, but he's certainly in no position to, he's the one losing, rather it indicates he no longer cares about that fact, and is going to have a jolly good laugh about it (though a mirthless one) before Marek ****s him over. I still feel it reflects a kind of sardonic defeatism that suggests he was psychologically worse for wear.I doubt that, Vader's Force reserves are tremendous and though I've no doubt he's fatigued, he's been making Marek work tremendously as well, it seems unlikely that the disparity between their remaining reserves should be so considerable, and so sudden.

Furthermore if Dooku can "open a channel" to refresh his Force reserves after they'd been exhausted by Anakin, I see not what's stopping Vader from getting a second wind, usually he tends to when confronted by pain and injury. Frankly, post-amputation Vader showed more determination.This is even more of a stretch tbh, under comparable circumstances Vader brought down a cathedral, decades before his prime, yet he's getting ragdolled here? Not that I'm denying those factors played a part, but its not sufficient an excuse tbh.I'll allow that slight because you suffer from poor judgement.

However, and not to be cliche, but it rings true that the eyes are the window to the soul, especially within the contexts of a narrative. You can almost always be sure that when an author is describing what's going on in someones eyes, they are describing a mental state as well. In that respect it seems an oversimplification to conclude he's just tired, when its obvious the author is trying to make a contrast between the intimidating exterior of Vader, and the pathetic creature underneath - a weariness of character is practically explicit.

As for Dooku well that's an excellent example, he's reflecting not just on the fact that he's lost the duel and is about to die, but that his entire life has been a sham. Likewise Vader is surely thinking on something more than the fact he's lost the duel, like him being the pathetic creature that Marek described.

Regardless I said nothing of begging for mercy, quite the opposite, for example when Vader is left battered and beaten by the Jedi who ambush him on Kessel, he, damaged, amputated and weaponless, states he will "destroy you all", it's that kind of defiance in the face of defeat that would be more characteristic of him. The lack of yellowness in his eyes also suggesting that he's not fully seated in the dark side.I think it did, or the psychological aspect of the narrative is rendered somewhat redundant. Certainly I am not confident that Marek would win if Vader was in peak mental condition, or that the fight would have gone the same, and their rematch in TFU II arguably reflects that.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Welp. I don't know about you but I don't think there's much more to be had from further discussion aside from us nitpicking each other's posts to gain a minor edge in support of our stances which we ultimately disagree on. Too late.

However, I am prepared to agree to disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

But I'll read it over and respond to any of the points I feel need clarifying.

You've convinced me.

I'll concede the point that upon realizing Galen had him outclassed Vader lost confidence and thus some of his combative effectiveness.

I however retain the stance that Vader was simply outclassed as a combatant which is what lead to his lack of confidence near the tail end of the fight.

So essentially I agree with the end result but not the cause leading up to it that you suggested. Galen beginning to gain the advantage over Vader as he sought a better way to defeat him was because of Galen's own ability, in other words.

Also it should be noted that Galen likely has greater force reserves then Vader anyways. It would explain why they were fighting evenly throughout most of the fight before Galen starts to gain advantage. He simply outlasted him. It also helps to explain the performance of the Starkiller clone against Vader. He didn't have the time for a prolonged Vader with a dying Juno nearby which caused him to fight wrecklessly in an effort to end the fight quickly. Something inadvisable against a more cautious and prepared Vader.

I am well pleased.

However, I'll have to agree to disagree that Marek's Dun Moch did not play a part in that loss of confidence.

And surely if you acknowledge that Vader & Marek were fighting evenly before this event then the idea that Marek "outclassed" him is inarguable, evidently there exists parity.

I disagree, but I understand why you hold your stance.

You misunderstand. I mean that Galen outclassed him BECAUSE he had superior force reserves and thus greater endurance and more potent Force attacks and defenses. They are indeed peers as lightsaber combatants but as OVERALL combatants I'd place Galen above by a solid margin.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And now I know why people tell me you're a shit debater. You aren't even bothering to address the point instead focusing on posting errors which I fixed a second later.

F*ck off.

Edit: F*ck you twice actually. You cut my original post anyways @sshole. http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/kmcprofile/raptorswearjar_zpsblzzjazi.jpg

Team.