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1. Who takes a combat purely of the Force, how thoroughly, and why?
2. Who would take victory in an all-out confrontation, how thoroughly, and why?

The contest takes place on neutral ground, with a 15 meter starting distance. Both sides have access to an adequate information on the other.

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This has been one of the more debated match-ups among the more elite combatants in the mythos, and really lends to the question of how quickly the Banite line surpassed the ancient sith. In order to facilitate a productive discussion, I'd invite everyone to give good arguments and reasons; I'm interested.

I will hold my cards a little until I see what people are saying, but I do side with Plagueis, and the general outline of my reasons is:

1. Vitiate's most impressive feats to this point were on an nexus. Many were also highly conditional; for instance, his domination of Revan and Malak is explicitly aided by their already being on the precipice of the dark side, his destruction of the dark council uses a mysterious flash that he conveniently never employs again - given his possession of home field advantage and prep time, it probably cannot be repeated in a sudden combat.

2. Vitiate is not the most effective combatant. He couldn't overwhelm Revan on a nexus without charging up his lightning, which he may not have time to do here, he was disarmed by Meetra's saber strike, he was almost blindsided by a droid's flamethrower, etc. Plagueis, meanwhile, is exceptionally well trained in personal combat and showed the ability to will himself out of incredibly sticky situations on a whim.

3. Darth Plagueis, along with Palpatine, were able to wrestle with the Force and unbalance it itself, to the point where it spawned the Chosen One just to fight them back. If you don't think this is particularly impressive, why didn't the Force ever need to spawn Anakin to combat Vitiate? Don't you think that if Vitiate could have done something similar, he would have? Yet he had a thousand years and a nexus.

4. Plagueis has incredible feats in close quarters combat and telekinetic prowess, which narrow Vitiate's options to quickly winning from a distance, therefore reducing his probability of victory.

5. The backcover blurb says Plagueis is the most powerful sith who had ever lived. It's not valid to just dismiss publisher's blurbs because you don't like them - where's the argument for it? They do have legal and creative license, and the quote just happens to align with Plagueis's own opinion, despite his earlier being willing to consider the opposite possibility. The publisher's blurb isn't infallible, but it does shift the burden to the other side to falsify it.

What are your cases?

Probably Vitiate.

This is based off his obliteration of entire Dark Councils ( who would have been amped the same as Vitiate from a DS nexus ), his ability to mind wipe an entire space station casually and lastly a quote which places him above Nihilus ( I wouldn't usually buy a quote that contradicts feats but since Vitiate and Nihilus are so close anyways and it's ambiguous if Vitiate can straight out drain a planet in the Revan novel I'm willing to make an exception ).

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
his ability to mind wipe an entire space station casually
What?

I believe you're the one who told me about it Ant. You linked me a video where Vitiate mindwipes an entire station and it has Lana and Marr corresponding about it.

I looked in the Valk RT but I couldn't find it.

If I'm wrong my apologies. His domination of Ziost though should be sufficient evidence of his telepathic abilities though.

I have no clue what you're talking about, so I'm going to say no, I never told you about "it."

*Shrug* I guess not. I remember seeing a video of it though...

Weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipgIE5GSE1Y&t=29m54s

Are you referring to this scene?

No, I don't think so.

Valkorion > Plagueis > Vitiate in combat.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Probably Vitiate.

This is based off his obliteration of entire Dark Councils ( who would have been amped the same as Vitiate from a DS nexus ), his ability to mind wipe an entire space station casually and lastly a quote which places him above Nihilus ( I wouldn't usually buy a quote that contradicts feats but since Vitiate and Nihilus are so close anyways and it's ambiguous if Vitiate can straight out drain a planet in the Revan novel I'm willing to make an exception ).

His defeat of the dark council was done with the elements of prep and surprise in his home base. Were he able to replicate this on his own power, why does he never use that blue flash attack again?

Vitiate is above Nihilus, but how does that put him above Plagueis? Nihilus was never labeled the most powerful sith in history, nor did he wrestle with the Force itself via sheer meditation, nor did he intimidate Darth Sidious. His giga-drain is disproportionate to his other abilities, and indeed it doesn't look as if Vitiate has the same capability.

^^
Some of that is legit cancerous, ngl.

Perhaps the members of the Dark Council he managed to do this to were not strong enough to defend against his power. Or maybe he simply knew he could afford to expend that much power to make an example but it would be unwise to do so against opponents like Meetra and Scourge when there was someone who could both resist and attack him ( Revan ) whilst he was gathering his power to attack the other two.

Given Nihilus's feats. I really don't give a shit about quotes Ell. Like at all. They're only useful to me to provide clarity on matters of uncertainty. Everything else can be judged based off the visual evidence and feats we're provided.

Ellim, a lot of those comparisons don't seem to be all that fair, lol. Like, obviously Nihilus never intimidated Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Vitiate's most impressive feats to this point were on an nexus. Many were also highly conditional; for instance, his domination of Revan and Malak is explicitly aided by their already being on the precipice of the dark side, his destruction of the dark council uses a mysterious flash that he conveniently never employs again - given his possession of home field advantage and prep time, it probably cannot be repeated in a sudden combat.
How many times I have to explain to you that your assessment is faulty?

Vitiate was the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy, period. Not a single source implies that a nexus environment was the source of his power.

The nexus environment of Dromund Kaas was the outcome of his dark practices. Vitiate was powerful enough to alter atmospheric conditions of planet Dromund Kaas, a shift that led to creation of nexus environment in this world.

Do not forget that Vitiate was just a child when he was dropping Sith Lords left and right in single combat.

As for his dismissal of an entire Dark Council, did you forget that this confrontation took place in an even playing field? Or do you think that the nexus environment favored only Vitiate?

Kindly do your homework before jumping to silly conclusions.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
2. Vitiate is not the most effective combatant. He couldn't overwhelm Revan on a nexus without charging up his lightning, which he may not have time to do here, he was disarmed by Meetra's saber strike, he was almost blindsided by a droid's flamethrower, etc. Plagueis, meanwhile, is exceptionally well trained in personal combat and showed the ability to will himself out of incredibly sticky situations on a whim.
But Darth Plagueis soundly dismissed Revan-level opponents, right?

May I remind you that the mighty Darth Plagueis almost lost to a bunch of assassins? On the contrary, Revan floored entire armies of Sith and Mandalorians in the battlefield.

I suppose Revan >> Darth Plagueis

Originally posted by The Ellimist
3. Darth Plagueis, along with Palpatine, were able to wrestle with the Force and unbalance it itself, to the point where it spawned the Chosen One just to fight them back. If you don't think this is particularly impressive, why didn't the Force ever need to spawn Anakin to combat Vitiate? Don't you think that if Vitiate could have done something similar, he would have? Yet he had a thousand years and a nexus.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/92/33/b7/9233b79c9aed3eb95c09fc9ba46b8317.jpg

Was it necessary for Vitiate to attempt such a thing?

Kindly check the Affecting the Force section of this blog: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/valkorion-respect-thread-1556713/

Your point is moot.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. Plagueis has incredible feats in close quarters combat and telekinetic prowess, which narrow Vitiate's options to quickly winning from a distance, therefore reducing his probability of victory.
Right.

Vitiate sent Revan flying across the hall and disintegrated T3-M4 with a thought. Later on, he gave Lord Scourge (Yoda vs Ventress) treatment, halting his lightsaber strike mid-air without a gesture.

Originally posted by The Ellimist 5. The backcover blurb says Plagueis is the most powerful sith who had ever lived. It's not valid to just dismiss publisher's blurbs because you don't like them - where's the argument for it? They do have legal and creative license, and the quote just happens to align with Plagueis's own opinion, despite his earlier being willing to consider the opposite possibility. The publisher's blurb isn't infallible, but it does shift the burden to the other side to falsify it.
They are marketing statements.

Otherwise Darth Bane is the most powerful Force-user ever.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate was the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy, period. Not a single source implies that a nexus environment was the source of his power.

So? Still 99.9% of his feats are amped.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The nexus environment of Dromund Kaas was the outcome of his dark practices. Vitiate was powerful enough to alter atmospheric conditions of planet Dromund Kaas, a shift that led to creation of nexus environment in this world.

Pretty cool. Vitiate with hundreds of years of rituals could affect DK's weather. Plagueis caused the coldest winter on Naboo just by being.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do not forget that Vitiate was just a child when he was dropping Sith Lords left and right in single combat.

Zannah did the same with Jedi as a child, who is canonically eclipsed by Plagueis.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As for his dismissal of an entire Dark Council, did you forget that this confrontation took place in an even playing field? Or do you think that the nexus environment favored only Vitiate?

Actually yes. Since Vitiate knew of the Dark Council's plan he could prepare any ritual or gather power with the assistance of the nexus.

Is Zoltan on the Plagueis train?

He's right to be.

I know. Plagueis is great.

Heck, child Zannah subconsciously snapped the necks of Jedi Masters. She was ten, rather than two (when Vitiate curbed his father), but Plagueis, who, by all means, should be far and away more powerful than Zannah, is still well within Vitiate's league here.

Can somebody present a definitive case for the Emperor? Because I'm thinking an argument for Hego Damask is entirely plausible here.

It's really not. Any feat war you can wage with Plagueis vs Vitiate would probably be rendered mute when you powerscale off Nihilus or Revan.

And in terms of accolades, Vitiate's status as a "almost godlike" being who consumed the power of eight thousand Sith Lords is certainly sufficient.

Once again, the only argument for Darth Plagueis is the blurb, in which the people who follow that probably think Darth Plagueis wins anyway.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She was ten, rather than two (when Vitiate curbed his father).

Vitiate was 10 too:

When they met face-to-face, Tenebrae proved the stronger. Only ten years old, he stripped his father of his power and his mind.

Unless you mean his adoptive father?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's really not. Any feat war you can wage with Plagueis vs Vitiate would probably be rendered mute when you powerscale off Nihilus or Revan.

Aren't you currently entertaining the stance that Revan was rather close to Vitiate, especially neutral ground Vitiate? Most people here rank Plagueis over Revan, so it's entirely plausible for them to have Plagueis match or beat Vitiate.



Vitiate obviously didn't wield the summative power of all eight thousand of them. "Almost godlike" is rather unquantifiable, as TOR hands out comparable accolades like milk cartons to Sith vastly inferior to Plagueis.

There's another interesting comparison to be had here. Plagueis' use of the Force on Aborah saturated it with enough power to make it comparable to Sith worlds (inferrably including the likes of Dromund Kaas). Granted, the power of such worlds had likely wasted away somewhat since the days of The Old Republic, but Vitiate had a millennium's worth of rituals to enact on Dromund Kaas, and the planet was already potent in the dark side, before the planet became saturated with that dark power as seen in the novel. Plagueis had mere decades.



An all-out fight on neutral ground, 15 meters apart, is certainly a situation that Plagueis could emerge victorious from.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vitiate was 10 too:

When they met face-to-face, Tenebrae proved the stronger. Only ten years old, he stripped his father of his power and his mind.

Unless you mean his adoptive father?

Ah, that makes it even better. Plagueis has a very genuine chance now - perhaps even in Force-only.

Comparable accolades, similar showings of power but I feel Plagueis is more combat effective.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Aren't you currently entertaining the stance that Revan was rather close to Vitiate? Most people here rank Plagueis over Revan, so it's entirely plausible for Plagueis to match or beat Vitiate indeed. .
The intent of the blog was to push Revan closer to Plagueis, not just lower Vitiate.


I'm glad you're now a canonical authority on Legends.


There's no comparable accolades. And no, being "supremely powerful" isn't comparable. Don't even.


Quote me on where it took Vitiate a millennium to turn Kaas into a nexus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The intent of the blog was to push Revan closer to Plagueis, not just lower Vitiate.

I didn't say it was to lower Vitiate, but for those who rank Plagueis over Revan, as I do, it's not difficult to entertain the notion of contending or even beating Vitiate on neutral ground.



Why is it that every time somebody passes judgment on something - in a discussion forum of all places - people start to mock them as if they're pretending that they're canonical authorities? I never said that - but that's my take on it.

Regardless, if we want to defer to Legends as the highest authority, Revan shouldn't be even remotely comparing to the power of eight thousand Sith Lords + a Sith Lord who was vastly more powerful than his child self, who already capable of Severing other Sith Lords. Because much smaller congregations of Force users have managed feats far beyond Revan's capabilities.



Indeed?



But even if you forget what I said about comparable accolades, TOR calls Thanaton "supremely powerful", Baras "near-indestructible", claims that the Dread Masters have "unprecedented power", the Galactic War being "nothing" in comparison to Soa's power, and your average Darth "the embodiment of death". I recall some other Sith being stated to possess "immeasurable power".

Here's the important part. Given how some/most of these characters don't even hold a candle to Plagueis, I'm wondering - is it really so difficult to believe that Hego might not share an accolade similar to Vitiate's were he written in such a wank-filled medium?



See the edit. I'm not referring to Vitiate taking a millennium to produce a nexus (it was already strong in the dark side before he arrived there), but a millennium to produce the nexus as seen in the novel. And whilst that nexus might've weakened over the millennia up to RotE era, Plagueis producing comparable nexuses in mere decades suggests that he's comparable to Vitiate, especially since he didn't have the help of the location already being strong in the dark side.

Did Plagueis merely form the nexus on the island, or across the entire planet? If the former, that's the most absurd comparison ever. You can't compare a planetary nexus in which the power is dispersed among all the land to a small area where Force energy would be concentrated.


And no, those aren't comparable accolades. You're missing the point, anyway.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Did Plagueis merely form the nexus on the island, or across the entire planet? If the former, that's the most absurd comparison ever. You can't compare a planetary nexus in which the power is dispersed among all the land to a small area where Force energy would be concentrated.

On revision, it's the island that's a "transcendent vortex of dark energy unlike anything had ever experienced".

Which is still fine, thanks to this little gem:



Ergo, this is referring to specific spots of the DK/whatever else's nexus, not the planet as a whole. So something like the Dark Temple could well be included here. The comparison stands.



Actually, you're missing the point. I'm saying that if the average Darth is "the embodiment of death", you don't think that Plagueis would be "almost godlike" by TOR standards as well?

The Dread Master's created an immensely powerful nexus over a planet in a short amount of time. Plagueis creating one proves nothing.

Vitiate wasn't even trying to create a nexus on Kaas. It occurred as a side effect of his experiments.

Plagueis' nexus was also the side result of his use of the Force there.

Also, the DM's started their nexus on a world already vastly strong in the Force.

There is so much stupid in that one statement...

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
There is so much stupid in that one statement...

Right. Vitiate didn't even move his pathetic ass from a nexus between Nathema and KotFE.

DK nexus, Ziost nexus, Yavin IV nexus, Zakuul nexus.

Are you trying to imitate Legend? Because you are doing a really good job of being utter shit

Uh what? Vitiate left Nathema right after the ritual, which was right after the Great Hyperspace War. Also, he created the Nexus, lol. It's clear you haven't read or played anything.


So Vitiate creates a nexus, uses the nexus, and that translates to being "amped". Lol.


Says the guy who thought Vitiate was on Nathema until KOTFE, lmfao

This idiot can't even read lmao.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Who takes a combat purely of the Force, how thoroughly, and why?
2. Who would take victory in an all-out confrontation, how thoroughly, and why?

The contest takes place on neutral ground, with a 15 meter starting distance. Both sides have access to an adequate information on the other.

I'm prepared to side with Plagueis in both rounds. He's an exceptionally powerful and ferocious combatant and Vitiate, for all his power, was pretty underwhelming in Revan.

It will be interesting to see someone actually make a case for Vitiate here.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
This idiot can't even read lmao.



https://cdn.meme.am/instances/58784074.jpg

It will be interesting for someone to make a case for Plagueis here. At least as far as the force goes. I'll give him a victory in sabers.

Here let me spell it out for you because it seems your cognitive functions are not developed enough to comprehend simple english.

I didn't say that Vitiate was on Nathema until KotFE, I said he was on various nexuses until KotFE. Which you should've realized when I started listing the nexuses he was on between Nathema and KotFE

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
It will be interesting for someone to make a case for Plagueis here.

It will be interesting for someone to make a case for Vitiate here, Beefy.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Here let me spell it out for you because it seems your cognitive functions are not developed enough to comprehend simple english.

I didn't say that Vitiate was on Nathema until KotFE, I said he was on various nexuses until KotFE. Which you should've realized when I started listing the nexuses he was on between Nathema and KotFE


You can't read. This has become painfully obvious.


I agree it will be interesting. I find it more interesting for someone to make a case for Plagueis though.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I find it more interesting for someone to make a case for Plagueis though.

People have been making cases for Plagueis, it's just that no one's bothered to address them and therefore jumpstart the actual debate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
People have been making cases for Plagueis, it's just that no one's bothered to address them and therefore jumpstart the actual debate.

I've yet to see a case for Plagueis. You can be disappointed with Vitiate's showing against Revan or you can be impressed with Revan's showing against Vitiate. A third option would be to accept that Vitiate was toying with Revan until he realized Revan was powerful enough where he had to get serious. When that happened, Revan had no answer. He doesn't need prep to defeat Plagueis. If he wins I will grant you it will be a difficult battle.

I wonder how Plagueis shouldn't be considered a "god-like avatar of the dark side" when he achieved unprecedented dominion over the Force, the ability to create life, resurrect the dead and render himself immortal, or as its described by the text: "his inward turn had enabled him to master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death." mmm

I'd say that's pretty godlike... on the other hand flowery hyperbole, especially of TOR's kind, is no basis for arguing a combative victory, lmao.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I've yet to see a case for Plagueis. You can be disappointed with Vitiate's showing against Revan or you can be impressed with Revan's showing against Vitiate. A third option would be to accept that Vitiate was toying with Revan until he realized Revan was powerful enough where he had to get serious. When that happened, Revan had no answer. He doesn't need prep to defeat Plagueis. If he wins I will grant you it will be a difficult battle.

No, you've yet to see a case you agree with, but reasons were provided. The only one who's bothered to actually address any of them is SWL and Zoltan addressed him in turn.

I see no evidence to suggest that Revan was being toyed with, since the Revan text very explicitly states that Vitiate stopped to gather and focus his energies preceding attacks multiple times throughout the fight.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I wonder how Plagueis shouldn't be considered a "god-like avatar of the dark side" when he achieved unprecedented dominion over the Force, the ability to create life, resurrect the dead and render himself immortal, or as its described by the text: "his inward turn had enabled him to master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death." mmm

I'd say that's pretty godlike... on the other hand flowery hyperbole, especially of TOR's kind, is no basis for arguing a combative victory, lmao.

What you just said was nothing but hyperbole. And then you had the testicular fortitude to claim that Vitiate is all hyperbole. Wow

Also, remind me when he created life and made himself immortal? I believe Vitiate was the immortal one, able to make others immortal as well (Scourge), but lets ignore everything, lmao.


I believe the same thing can be said about you?


I don't have the text right in front of me but I remember Vitiate not getting serious until Revan put him on his ass, since Revan spent a lifetime preparing for Vitiate's mental barrage.

MS... you should concede to Zoltan. I mean, that was a painful, painful misunderstanding...

Considering Scourge's visions of the Emperor's defeat, and considering the attack prompted him to create his Voices out of fear for his life according to the SWTORE, it's obvious Revan & co. where very much a threat.

To make him feel better about him not understand his own words?


I didn't say they weren't a threat. I said at the time, Vitiate didn't consider him a threat. You don't get to say they were a threat after the fact because that's obvious.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I believe the same thing can be said about you?

No u?

Literally no one here other than SWL has provided an argument to defend Viti.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I don't have the text right in front of me but I remember Vitiate not getting serious until Revan put him on his ass, since Revan spent a lifetime preparing for Vitiate's mental barrage.

...That was literally the opening move of the fight.

Plus, as Beni points out, Vitiate was hesitant to the point of absolute inaction when confronted by a wounded!Revan, Meetra, and Scourge. And Scourge's visions were such that there were plenty of futures wherein Vitiate died that day.

The fight between Revan and Vitiate was pretty close and apparently all it takes to thwart Vitiate potentially forever is a wounded!Revan and two characters who, combined, are lesser to Nyriss.

You outright read him wrong, lol. Just concede. It's not the end of the world.

To those among us complaining about the debate culture and who have an opinion on this, the gauntlet has been cast.

Let's see an actual debate.

But how do Scourge's visions have anything to do with what Vitiate was thinking? Full blown Vitiate was put on his ass once in his entire timeline and that's from Revan who spent years preparing for a mental defense. Let's assume that Plagueis doesn't magically have that defense, shall we?

After Revan succeeded, the book said something about Vitiate getting angry and the match ended fairly quick.


I read his exact words. They were pretty clear. How did I "read" them wrong. I'm not going to assume he meant something else. He had 15 minutes to correct his own text.


See above. What it took was Revan's mental preparation for years/decades (aside from the fact Revan was incredibly powerful) and Vitiate's underestimation. If you're going with "I hope Plagueis knows how to defend against Vitiate's mental domination and maybe he won't take me seriously", that's not a great starting point.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
But how do Scourge's visions have anything to do with what Vitiate was thinking? Full blown Vitiate was put on his ass once in his entire timeline and that's from Revan who spent years preparing for a mental defense. Let's assume that Plagueis doesn't magically have that defense, shall we?

Vitiate was actually put on his ass twice that day.
Scourge's visions are relevant because he foresaw plenty of futures where they killed Vitiate, which explains why Vitiate didn't make a move until Scourge killed Meetra and Revan was distracted.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
After Revan succeeded, the book said something about Vitiate getting angry and the match ended fairly quick.

Revan put Vitiate on his ass, Vitiate attacked with lightning, got put on his ass again, and then conjured a veritable storm of lightning which Revan tried to absorb barehanded.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
See above. What it took was Revan's mental preparation for years/decades (aside from the fact Revan was incredibly powerful) and Vitiate's underestimation. If you're going with "I hope Plagueis knows how to defend against Vitiate's mental domination and maybe he won't take me seriously", that's not a great starting point.

You should reacquaint yourself with the book, as bad as it is. After Vitiate subdues Revan at the end of their 1v1, he's roasting him with Force lightning and then Meetra and Scourge intervene. Vitiate hesitates when confronted with Surik alone, a wounded Revan rises to his feet, and the three prepare to face off with Vitiate. Then Scourge receives a flood of visions, in many of which Vitiate dies in the ensuing fight.

Hence a wounded!Revan and a duo who, together, are less than Nyriss are enough to plausibly end Vitiate's life. Obviously Revan is enormously powerful, but that's not an unprecedented array of firepower.

When was the second time? The visions are irrelevant because they were Scourge's visions. That doesn't indicate that Vitiate considered Revan a threat until he was put on his ass.


I just moved into a new house so I don't know where it is, but what is your point here? The way I remember it is Vitiate tries his mental domination, Revan blocks it and puts Vitiate on his ass. Vitiate then gets angry and roasts Revan. Then the rest of that happen.


Again context. They stood a chance only because Revan prepared a defense for Vitiate's mental domination that took years/decades.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
What you just said was nothing but hyperbole. And then you had the testicular fortitude to claim that Vitiate is all hyperbole. Wow

Also, remind me when he created life and made himself immortal? I believe Vitiate was the immortal one, able to make others immortal as well (Scourge), but lets ignore everything, lmao.I have no interested in humouring yet another of your basic comprehension missteps Beefy but yes, you should assume that my testicular fortitude is greater than your own.

To address your relevant questions though, 1. He described as creating "pregnancies" in various creatures on Aborah "not achieved by normal means of conception, but rather through the Force", or rather much like Anakin. 2. By manipulating his midi-chlorians Plagueis was essentially capable of preventing himself from ageing:An ability he could evidently perform on others i.e. Venamis, so yes, he can make others immortal as well. Any more questions?Originally posted by MS Warehouse
But how do Scourge's visions have anything to do with what Vitiate was thinking? Full blown Vitiate was put on his ass once in his entire timeline and that's from Revan who spent years preparing for a mental defense. Let's assume that Plagueis doesn't magically have that defense, shall we?

After Revan succeeded, the book said something about Vitiate getting angry and the match ended fairly quick.That's not the point, the point is that Revan & co. could have legitimately defeated the Emperor, if despite that Vitiate failed to acknowledge as a threat, more fool him. However considering it prompted him to create a Voice, he evidently found Revan's attacks sufficiently threatening to his life.

But sure, let's assume that the only way to defend against Vitiate's TP is if you know the magic words.

And the match "ended fairly quickly" because Vitiate gathered a "swirling storm of pure dark side" energy on an intensely powerful nexus, what proof is there that he will have the time or the resources to create something of similar magnitude here?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
When was the second time?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I just moved into a new house so I don't know where it is, but what is your point here? The way I remember it is Vitiate tries his mental domination, Revan blocks it and puts Vitiate on his ass. Vitiate then gets angry and roasts Revan. Then the rest of that happen.



Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The visions are irrelevant because they were Scourge's visions. That doesn't indicate that Vitiate considered Revan a threat until he was put on his ass.

Vitiate was put on his ass in the very first move of the fight.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Again context. They stood a chance only because Revan prepared a defense for Vitiate's mental domination that took years/decades.

That's not encouraging. Contextually, that means if Vitiate of this era has to actually get his hands dirty, he could fall to relatively minor firepower. On a dark side nexus.

You humor me everytime you post an essay that's barely legible, then ***** and moan about how it's a fact. Truly amusing


But he didn't prevent himself from aging did he?


But he didn't do that to Venamis, did he? So he was a mad scientist with force powers. He didn't make himself immortal nor Venamis. If your only response is "but he totally could", I don't need anymore laughter this morning.


Yes, that's the only way. Wow, at least your stupidity is consistent


Other than the fact that he's gathering his energies while in the middle of a fight? LOL. Leave this to Gideon.



Hold on, can you give the direct quotes because as far as I remember, he was put on his ass once.


The very first move of the fight was Vitiate's mind domination. Technically it was the second move of the fight. Then Vitiate got serious. The fight wasn't very long at all.


Again, contextually it means if Plagueis has a defense for Vitiate's mind domination (no proof of that), then Vitiate will have to get his hands dirty, and then you have a fight. The fight with Revan and the duo wasn't a fight. The best Revan do was put him on his ass and enrage him.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You humor me everytime you post an essay that's barely legible, then ***** and moan about how it's a fact. Truly amusing Uh-huh, your poor reading skills are also not my problem.Yes that's... exactly what he did. It is stated that "eventually he would cease to age altogether" and almost a decade later Sidious observes that his mastered the "equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death."
He brought Venamis back to life, and then internalised that ability, making himself ageless.

How many more of the dots must I connect for you?A baseless assertion of which you have no proof. Against an opponent far inferior to Plagueis, quite. What's stopping Plagueis from interrupting him?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So? Still 99.9% of his feats are amped.
Said advantage is claimed, not officially affirmed.

For example, we have documented evidence of Darths Bane and Zannah drawing from the power of a nexus environment to perform certain actions and/or bolster their effectiveness in combat situations.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Pretty cool. Vitiate with hundreds of years of rituals could affect DK's weather. Plagueis caused the coldest winter on Naboo just by being.
Hundreds of years? You are wrong.

Vitiate corrupted the environment of Dromund Kaas long ago. And the sheer scale and potency of his accomplishment dwarfs that of Darth Plagueis.

As for the winter in Naboo, there is no solid evidence of Darth Plagueis causing it.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Zannah did the same with Jedi as a child, who is canonically eclipsed by Plagueis.
I suppose that a powerful Sith Lord is a much superior foe than two random Jedi.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Actually yes. Since Vitiate knew of the Dark Council's plan he could prepare any ritual or gather power with the assistance of the nexus.
And the members of the Dark Council reached his position without any preparation?

1. Does anyone have a substantive case for dismissing the publisher's blurb beyond your completely made up rule that publishers don't have artistic license (in blatant contradiction to the actual law)?

2. Who can present a case for Vitiate that accounts for the confounding impact of a powerful dark side nexus?

@Syndicate: if you think his blue flash is too weak to take out Meetra and Scourge, or the HoT, or any of the other strike teams he fails to employ it against, why should we think it would be useful against Plagueis?

My "poor" reading comprehension skills have nothing to do with your poorly constructed arguments, but I digress.


He didn't actually stop the aging process. 10 years later he was older and looked older. You know, the opposite of immortal?


But he didn't make himself ageless, lol. You don't need to connect any dots for me since you're unable to do so sufficiently for yourself.


And unsurprisingly, the sarcasm goes over your head.


Baseless assumptions. You'd have to prove that:

A. Revan was a far inferior opponent than Plagueis
B. Plagueis has the means of interrupting him.


Since you haven't done either (again, unsurprisingly), we'll ignore that part of your argument, ok?


Ok, so Revan's mental preparing put Vitiate on his ass, and the next attack just sent him sliding a few meters backwards. Doesn't look like he was put on his ass the second time. Someone throws a football hard, I slide a few feet backwards. Anyways, after that, Vitiate got serious and ended the fight pretty quickly.

So we've established the only way we've seen Vitiate actually get put on his ass involves years/decades of mental preparing in which the force user channels equal parts light/dark (which Plagueis doesn't possess)? Sounds fair.

Go back and reread it. Vitiate landed in a heap, rose to one knee, got hit again and was sent sliding back several meters on the floor. The text then says he rose to his feet. He didn't slide back on his feet if he wasn't on his feet to begin with.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
My "poor" reading comprehension skills have nothing to do with your poorly constructed arguments, but I digress.Indeed, your shit-posting has been off-topic for some time now.Incorrect Beefy, though at least you appear to have read the text, what it actually says though is that twenty years "had added a slight stoop to the Muun's posture and veins that stood out under his thinning white skin" - however around a decade into that period, Hego's condition began to reverse as a result of his advancements - nothing suggests that wasn't still ongoing. And considering it's stated he would eventually stop aging altogether his immortality was evidently a forgone conclusion, interrupted only by his murder at the hands of Sidious.

Regardless, you're nitpicking, whether or not you believe Plagueis truly achieved immortality or not the fact remains that such was his dominion over the dark side and the natural order of things, that the Force itself actively rebuked his efforts to be godlike. I do not recall the conception of a prophesied being to strike down Vitiate, so it would appear that in an effort to become a supreme being Plagueis was doing a better job of it.Is that right, sadly your kind have tried to attempt similar arguments without a hint of jesting in the past, so forgive me for believing you equally as stupid.I think it's been proven substantially enough that Plagueis rivals Vitiate as a Force user where Revan proved ultimately no match for him, and now Vitiate is without the aid of a nexus to unleash such a potent attack - feel free to address either of those arguments.

And I imagine with his lightsaber, or maybe a Force push, yeah. The fact that Plagueis has been described at moving at a respectable fraction of the speed of light would suggest he can interrupted Vitiate rather quickly.

Also to highlight some extracts from Temp's post:The majority of Vitiate's attacks are performed by him focusing and gathering considerable amounts of power, the only attack that wasn't (where Vitiate fired lighting bolts at him in "quick succession" capably handled by Revan. Evidently he was taking his opponent seriously.

This again being within the contexts of Vitiate being able to focus and channel the energies of an intensely powerful nexuso there is no guarantee he will be able to unleash powers of this magnitude against Plagueis.

Originally posted by SunRazer
On revision, it's the island that's a "transcendent vortex of dark energy unlike anything had ever experienced".

Which is still fine, thanks to this little gem:



Ergo, this is referring to specific spots of the DK/whatever else's nexus, not the planet as a whole. So something like the Dark Temple could well be included here. The comparison stands.

Can you quote me a source where Palpatine went to Kaas?

The Korriban nexus was drastically inferior to Kaas' during the time of Ben Skywalker.

And what's with you and these stretched out comparisons?

First with the Exile and Canderous, then when Vitiate and the Star Forge. Now with this...

15 meters is long enough to keep it a Force fight tbh, but Idk if the info they have on each other would serve the king of prep or Plageuis in his use of melee combat.

Both sides have a legit chance, I'll side Vitiate in The Force and either way in All Out till I see more of the discussion.

.

There, Elm, I posted in the thread.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Said advantage is claimed, not officially affirmed.

For example, we have documented evidence of Darths Bane and Zannah drawing from the power of a nexus environment to perform certain actions and/or bolster their effectiveness in combat situations.

Is this an attempt to say Vitiate wasn't amped on the nexuses? Because it's pretty poor at that.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Hundreds of years? You are wrong.

Vitiate corrupted the environment of Dromund Kaas long ago. And the sheer scale and potency of his accomplishment dwarfs that of Darth Plagueis.

Plagueis wasn't even trying lol, while on the other hand Vitiate directly caused the storms with his rituals. That's like saying Starkiller's all out TK is better than Yoda's fart.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As for the winter in Naboo, there is no solid evidence of Darth Plagueis causing it.

Right. So the coldest winter in Naboo history and Plagueis's autumn arrival just happened to be at the exact same time. Totally accident, you convinced me

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I suppose that a powerful Sith Lord is a much superior foe than two random Jedi.

I suppose two random Jedi are a superior foe to one random Sith. But considering whom I talking to let's presume they aren't. Even then Plagueis is vastly more powerful, with vastly bigger potential than Zannah.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And the members of the Dark Council reached his position without any preparation?

As if 12 random Sith can prep as well as Vitiate. You insult your fav. Nevermind the fact that Vitiate stuck first so it's irrelevant if they preped or no.

Should be noted that Vitiate did not create the dark side nexus on Dromund Kaas, it was already strong in the Force when they arrived, he merely intensified it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Should be noted that Vitiate did not create the dark side nexus on Dromund Kaas, it was already strong in the Force when they arrived, he merely intensified it.

Before I get to your novel, you can't claim he intensified the nexus and then claim that "well he did this because he was on a nexus". You don't get your cake and eat it to. And by you I mean in the general sense, before you start developing a complex.

Edit: I'd like clarification if he did indeed create dark side nexus with his experiments, because he definitely changed the weather while doing so.

Care to explain why? Your reasoning is incomplete.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Care to explain why? Your reasoning is incomplete.

Which part? If you're going to say that character X intensified an already force infusion planet, then you can't take the same character and say his accomplishments are tainted because he was on said nexus.

Only if the logic went that Vitiate's mere presence on the nexus caused it to intensify, but he achieved it through various Sith rituals. I see no reason why he can't reap what he has sown (on top of the dark side energies already present.)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Only if the logic went that Vitiate's mere presence on the nexus caused it to intensify, but he achieved it through various Sith rituals. I see no reason why he can't reap what he has sown (on top of the dark side energies already present.) that's if you give him credit for the intensification sure. He intensified the force wherever he went anyways.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Does anyone have a substantive case for dismissing the publisher's blurb beyond your completely made up rule that publishers don't have artistic license (in blatant contradiction to the actual law)?

2. Who can present a case for Vitiate that accounts for the confounding impact of a powerful dark side nexus?

@Syndicate: if you think his blue flash is too weak to take out Meetra and Scourge, or the HoT, or any of the other strike teams he fails to employ it against, why should we think it would be useful against Plagueis?

The quote not working for you either?

I'm simply saying it's a demonstration of his overall power rather then an ability he could effectively use against Plagueis. As I said I find it more likely he couldn't gather his energies to carry out such an attack with Revan present.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also to highlight some extracts from Temp's post:The majority of Vitiate's attacks are performed by him focusing and gathering considerable amounts of power, the only attack that wasn't (where Vitiate fired lighting bolts at him in "quick succession" capably handled by Revan. Evidently he was taking his opponent seriously.

This again being within the contexts of Vitiate being able to focus and channel the energies of an intensely powerful nexuso there is no guarantee he will be able to unleash powers of this magnitude against Plagueis.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The quote not working for you either?

I'm simply saying it's a demonstration of his overall power rather then an ability he could effectively use against Plagueis. As I said I find it more likely he couldn't gather his energies to carry out such an attack with Revan present.

Nah, I was on my phone. As for demonstrating his overall power, I don't buy it; why aren't his other attacks as powerful then? He has to charge up his lightning storm for several seconds to overpower Tol Braga's strike team, for instance.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
. Relative to what the Vitiate-supporters have posted, this is a top contribution.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's really not. Any feat war you can wage with Plagueis vs Vitiate would probably be rendered mute when you powerscale off Nihilus or Revan.


Neither you nor anyone else has properly quantified the Ravager feat; look, for instance, at how much you delve into Starkiller's frigate feat to mitigate it, and how it would look if the event had been described as vaguely as Nihilus's. We don't know how strong the well was at that part of the planet, how long it took Nihilus to lift it, etc.

In either case, if we're looking at more time-independent cases like the Ravager, Plagueis's unbalancing the Force seems to be far more potent.




Being "almost godlike" =/= being labeled the most powerful sith lord of all time. I know you don't take publisher's blurbs seriously, but I haven't seen any actual case for it beyond Drew's opinion and some whining about how publishers only care about money, which somehow invalidates their creative license (?).

No, it hasn't been proven substantially. You keep claiming this but repeating the same mantra doesn't make it so. If you want to argue that Plagueis>Revan, feel free but until then, you may cease with the baseless assertions.


And that fact is irrelevant if Vitiate can mind dominate him before that. As we've seen, thus far the only technique to disrupt the Emperor's mind dominating powers is channeling the light and dark side of the force into oneness or whatever Revan did (after mentally preparing for years). If you want to argue Plagueis can block it, feel free.


Except he was shown to be gathering his energy in the middle of the same fight, and finally overwhelming Revan. Therefore, it doesn't matter when he decides to gather energy if he's shown to do it during a fight, does it?


Yup, a nexus he intensified simply with his presence.


There is no guaranteee Plagueis will be able to withstand his mental domination either. So?


Judging by what the Plagueis supporters have offered, not much is required from the Vitiate supporters.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nah, I was on my phone. As for demonstrating his overall power, I don't buy it; why aren't his other attacks as powerful then? He has to charge up his lightning storm for several seconds to overpower Tol Braga's strike team, for instance.

Who was on the team?

.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Neither you nor anyone else has properly quantified the Ravager feat; look, for instance, at how much you delve into Starkiller's frigate feat to mitigate it, and how it would look if the event had been described as vaguely as Nihilus's. We don't know how strong the well was at that part of the planet, how long it took Nihilus to lift it, etc.

In either case, if we're looking at more time-independent cases like the Ravager, Plagueis's unbalancing the Force seems to be far more potent.
Well I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume it didn't take him months of deep meditation to lift, and that he didn't have a TPM Palpatine Force-user helping him.

Even holding the ship together is beyond what Plagueis has shown.

Again, SoR Revan's mere presence caused a galactic disturbance in the Force that impacted powerful Force-users and was maintained until his death.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate was the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy, period. Not a single source implies that a nexus environment was the source of his power.


Nobody denied that he was the strongest of his time; the question is by how much, and whether it puts him above Plagueis. Barely besting Revan while amped by a nexus is not as impressive to any of us as intimidating Palpatine.



Untrue, as Beni pointed out, but even if it were, who cares? Over the course of centuries he apparently created a nexus, whereas Plagueis essentially created a dark side nexus across the entire cosmos by meditating for a few months.

BTW, if you want to talk atmospheric conditions, you do realize that Plagueis was able to alter said conditions by a greater degree just by arriving there, right?



He was incredibly precocious, yes, but this doesn't guarantee that his ceiling matches Plagueis's, unless if you think Kyle Katarn has more potential than Anakin.



He invited them to his fortress, and so obviously had prep time. If he could replicate it on a whim, why does he never use it again, but instead employs far more cumbersome moves?



He intimidated Palpatine, yeah.



Plagueis sustained injuries that would have killed most, and still beat them (who were highly trained and experienced in fighting Force users). Mind you, this was before he boosted his midichlorian count and unbalanced the Force.



I mean he was willing to go through all the effort to create some lightning storms on DM. That's the product of centuries of sorcery; Plagueis exceeds that just by arriving on a planet, and then unbalances the Force itself by meditating really hard.

Sure, Vitiate altered the balance in the same way everyone does; but the Force itself did not feel the need to conjure the Chosen One to stop him.



He got one initial strike in on Revan, yes. But then his subsequent lightning attacks were batted back at him, and he had to resort to charging his energies.



Oooooohhhh.



Scourge who?

But you're forgetting the part where he gets knocked on his ass by Revan, almost blindsided by T3-M4, knocked on his ass again by Revan, and then blindsided by Meetra. For all his power, he just isn't a really good fighter.



In other words, you're going to dismiss evidence you don't like for no reason but your personal say-so. I guess we can just dismiss SWTOR altogether, since it's just there for Bioware to make money.



He was never labeled as such, but nice try.

Regardless, while publisher's blurbs don't need to be taken as infallible, they can't just be dismissed on some flimsy basis that you think publishers are marketers or something.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume it didn't take him months of deep meditation to lift,

You don't know that. Months may be unreasonable, but he may have prepped it. We know that Force users can do more grandiose things when they charge up their energies even for a few seconds.

In terms of actual combat, Plagueis seems far more alert and experienced than Vitiate, and can fight up close.



He did have an incredibly powerful nexus. Sure, it was before his prime, but then again in his prime wasn't he being constantly amped by feeding off of the Ravager crew or something like that?



He didn't hold the ship together, since it was just fine after he died. I also think it's a double standard to dismiss the publisher's blurb purely on an attack on the publishers' literary engagement, but then take verbatim sources that actually don't make any sense (like Nihilus holding the Ravager together).



But the Force didn't need to create Anakin to put it back into place.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nobody denied that he was the strongest of his time; the question is by how much, and whether it puts him above Plagueis. Barely besting Revan while amped by a nexus is not as impressive to any of us as intimidating Palpatine.
What? No, it's more impressive. Palpatine's been intimidated by Ventress and Dooku in the past.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? No, it's more impressive. Palpatine's been intimidated by Ventress and Dooku in the past.

Come on, you know that there's a difference here; Palpatine legitimately thought that Plagueis could beat him in a fair fight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You don't know that. Months may be unreasonable, but he may have prepped it. We know that Force users can do more grandiose things when they charge up their energies even for a few seconds.
I'm operating under that assumption it didn't take him that long. He would have starved to death if he didn't *quickly* get off the world.

And that's funny, so then it makes perfect sense Plagueis and Palpatine can wage war when they charge up and enhance their energies in deep meditation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In terms of actual combat, Plagueis seems far more alert and experienced than Vitiate, and can fight up close.
How, exactly? By taking on some assassins and getting injured in the process?

Revan has vastly greater experience and "alertness" than Plagueis, and it didn't save him against Vitiate.


Again, not relevant. Sources confirm he had yet to come close to his planet-consuming power later in life.


That was because he needs to constantly feed off beings to remain alive. It wasn't "an amp."


Him holding it together isn't disputable. TCSWE and KotORPG confirm he did.

Avellone likewise stated the ship would have slowly fell apart following his death.


Because the Force already had agents in place that were sufficient (the coalition strike team).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Come on, you know that there's a difference here; Palpatine legitimately thought that Plagueis could beat him in a fair fight.
I'm not convinced Palpatine surpassed Revan until after killing Plagueis, so that's not relevant.

Ant, what out of universe statements do you take seriously? You won't take publisher's blurbs seriously because you think they're out to make money or something (lol), but you're fine with Avellone, even though he certainly didn't write the entire story by himself.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ant, what out of universe statements do you take seriously? You won't take publisher's blurbs seriously because you think they're out to make money or something (lol), but you're fine with Avellone, even though he certainly didn't write the entire story by himself.
Everything but the blurbs.

On what grounds?

On the grounds the people who wrote it have no authority establishing canon.

^ also, if you take anything but blurbs seriously, do you also take the quotes that put Darth Sidious as the most powerful sith in history as of RotS?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On the grounds the people who wrote it have no authority establishing canon.

That's not what their contracts say. They have creative authority over the work. This strikes me as a personal preference of yours, not an objective argument.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ also, if you take anything but blurbs seriously, do you also take the quotes that put Darth Sidious as the most powerful sith in history as of RotS?
He was the most powerful as per when the publication was written.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's not what their contracts say. They have creative authority over the work. This strikes me as a personal preference of yours, not an objective argument.
Can you link me to what their contracts say, then?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
No, it hasn't been proven substantially. You keep claiming this but repeating the same mantra doesn't make it so. If you want to argue that Plagueis>Revan, feel free but until then, you may cease with the baseless assertions.This is an ironic thing to say within the contexts of ignoring half my response, shall I assume a concession on that front, or is it pending?

Regardless, on top of what's already been noted, there is Plagueis' combative proximity to Darth Sidious, and the fact his powers are an order of magnitude greater than that of Darth Bane's, neither of which Novel!Revan can claim.So you are making this shit!tier argument after all? Lmao. First of all Revan's Force-in-balance technique wasn't what was responsible for his resistance of Vitiate's TP, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to teach it to Meetra or Scourge. Neither would Lana Beniko or the HoTLander be able to resist his TP also.

To put it bluntly the idea that a special power is needed to counter Vitiate's TP is baseless, whereas the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate he can TP someone of Plagueis calibre, when he has never successfully done so.That wasn't my point, my point was that he was evidently taking Revan seriously, not holding back as you were suggesting. Regardless though Vitiate was in "the middle of a fight" he still benefitted from the distance between himself and his opponent, Revan simply wasn't able to close the gap in time to prevent him from charging up his attacks, nor did he have the power to interrupt Vitiate by engaging him in a wizard's duel. Plagueis should be capable of both.
Aside from the fact that this doesn't prevent him from using the power already there you are wrong. As I've already said he intensified by performing rituals. I have no idea where you got the notion that he achieved it with his presence alone.There is also no guarantee that it will start raining men tomorrow, I'm not holding my breath.A concession doesn't take much effort to type, true.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume it didn't take him months of deep meditation to lift, and that he didn't have a TPM Palpatine Force-user helping him.

Even holding the ship together is beyond what Plagueis has shown.

Again, SoR Revan's mere presence caused a galactic disturbance in the Force that impacted powerful Force-users and was maintained until his death. Is there any reason to believe Nihilus didn't achieve this feat by drawing off the Malachor nexus?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Come on, you know that there's a difference here; Palpatine legitimately thought that Plagueis could beat him in a fair fight. This is confirmed to be the case by Luceno, tbh.

I didn't see your other response, looks like it came before this one. Will get to that one.


Again with the baseless assumption. You haven't established Plagueis superiority to Revan on any level, you just keep saying Revan isn't above this guy or that guy. I'm going to assume you're too proud to concede on that front.


The irony of this coming from you


Revan's force balance technique is exactly what did it. If you happen to read the book or even glance at the text Gideon provided, you'd see that.


Remind me when Vitiate tried to dominate those two? And what does Revan learning how defend against it have to do with him teaching it to others? Or are you saying that he wouldn't be able to teach it, which is even dumber?


I don't recall Lana or HoTlander being on the surface when everyone on Ziost was dominated but ok


Not too bright huh? Their is ample proof that a special counter is needed to Vitiate's TP, which Revan discovered painfully. Why would the burden of proof be on me to prove he can TP someone of Plagueis' caliber? I realize your arguments are awful but I don't expect someone to just blatantly shift the burden of proof when they're making all the baseless assertions, so let me help you out. You keep saying Plagueis>Revan, so until you prove that, I don't have to prove Vitiate cam TP someone of Plagueis caliber. While you're at it, go ahead and prove Plagueis is some kind of savant against mind techniques. When you don't, I'll go ahead and accept your concession although you'll undoubtedly attempt to distract and backpedal.


Prove it. I can just respond with "no, he can't", except I'm not holding all the cards in the assertion department.


Lets see. There's a force nexus, so a force user can do a and b. The force user is powerful enough to intensify the force nexus, therefore the force user can do A and B. He gets credit for intensifying said for nexus to allow himself the ability to do A and B. It's not rocket science.


Sure but you're the one continuing to make baseless assertions and desperately shifting the burden of proof.


I should expect one from you shortly but I have a feeling you'll continue to drag this out.


Is there any proof that he did? We don't need to prove a negative to you.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Is there any reason to believe Nihilus didn't achieve this feat by drawing off the Malachor nexus?
Between the affects of the world, and how far pre prime he was, the nexus isn't remotely relevant.

It's not a simple: pre-prime + nexus = normal.

On what basis is he far from his prime?

And that appears to be your argument. Huh. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis is he far from his prime?

And that appears to be your argument. Huh. mmm

As opposed to "is there any reason to believe this DIDNT happen"?

Nihilus would go on to consume Katarr and several other planets, lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus would go on to consume Katarr and several other planets, lol.

But but.. I'm sure his ship was a nexus!

Beefy's really seems pissed at me, lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Beefy's really seems pissed at me, lol.

Yes, I forgot in your mind, laughing at your arguments indicates I'm pissed, lol. Good show Beni, as usual

Beefy is ornery 24/7

Originally posted by Nephthys
Beefy is ornery 24/7

If you think I'm ornery here, you should see me with fortune 500 companies. They wish I was this nice.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Beefy is ornery 24/7 I don't know man, he's been paying special attention to me of late, across multiple threads. mmm

Why is it I never get the nice boys?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't know man, he's been paying special attention to me of late, across multiple threads. mmm

Why is it I never get the nice boys?

You mean just today and only this thread where we are engaged in a "debate"? Man, reality must suck, huh?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis is he far from his prime?

And that appears to be your argument. Huh. mmm
The simple fact he wasn't capable of consuming entire worlds until after studying under Kreia?

Beefy already embarrassed you. I'm surprised you're interested in a round two.

What dates the Ravager feat pre-studying under Kreia?

I have no idea what your on about, but OK friend.Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You mean just today and only this thread where we are engaged in a "debate"? Man, reality must suck, huh? Being popular is hard yeah, but nah its been going on for a little while now. Maybe with a little sleuthing I can work out when it was I hurt you. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What dates the Ravager feat pre-studying under Kreia?

I have no idea what your on about, but OK friend.Being popular is hard yeah, but nah its been going on for a little while now. Maybe with a little sleuthing I can work out when it was I hurt you. mmm well, you've consistently made up stuff throughout our debates zo I'm not surprised you have to pretend this is an ongoing thing instead of a "today" thing but hey, you're consistent

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What dates the Ravager feat pre-studying under Kreia?

He used the Ravager to leave Malachor in the first place.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
well, you've consistently made up stuff throughout our debates zo I'm not surprised you have to pretend this is an ongoing thing instead of a "today" thing but hey, you're consistent I taught you how to properly use a thumbs up on kmc. Kudos to me helping the intellectually challenged to learn something.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He used the Ravager to leave Malachor in the first place. And Kreia discovered him on Malachor, so that must have happened after his tutelage.

Source? And even if so, he still hasn't consumed any worlds yet (and his hunger = his power), so he's still blatantly pre-prime.

It's what I infer from his bio in the KOTOR campaign guide, and he consumed worlds in order to sustain his very existence, given he wound was constantly eating away at him. So consuming planet's would have necessarily made him much more powerful.

The KotORCG suggests the opposite, really.

It accounts how Kreia went to Malachor, studied in the Trayus Academy, and then went out to seek for Force wounds.

And then she found Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion.

I was referring to again Nihilus' bio which reads:Framing this within the contexts of Nihilus being stranded on Malachor, he doesn't appear to leave, and doesn't appear to be in any condition to. It would make much more sense for him to do so after Kreia gives him power and purpose.

More than that Nihilus can't pilot a ship on his own, he'd need subordinates for that.

He does appear to leave though: "he begins feeding relentlessly, still always craving."

The hell is he feeding on - on a world like Malachor? He's clearly elsewhere.


There's no visible subordinates in the Katarr comic.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He does appear to leave though: "he begins feeding relentlessly, still always craving."

The hell is he feeding on - on a world like Malachor? He's clearly elsewhere.Other survivors? If he survived many others could have well.

That said the KOTORCG doesn't actually make any mention of Nihilus being on Malachor, so that could be the misinterpretation.According to what?How did he get to Onderon without a crew lol? Regardless they aren't from Onderon, they wear Imperial uniforms, and Nihilus extended his treaty with the Onderonians under the guise of the Sith because y'know, he actually had something to give them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Other survivors? If he survived many others could have well.
The only survivors were the ones he consumed. Everyone else was dead.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That said the KOTORCG doesn't actually make any mention of Nihilus being on Malachor, so that could be the misinterpretation.
What are you talking about? He was a Jedi who fought during the Battle of Malachor V that was exposed to the Mass Shadow Generator. Like Meetra Surik, he was in a unique position between utter destruction and safety, and rather than severing himself up from the Force, he opened himself up to the destruction and became a dark side abomination. When the dust settled, he was on the world of Malachor V, killed the last survivors around him, and then fled the world with the Ravager seeking more power. He destroyed populations under Kreia found him and showed him how to master his abilities.


"Darth Nihilus is literally a destroyer of worlds, powered by an insatiable hunger that drives him to consume greater and greater populations."


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no visible subordinates in the Katarr comic.
As in, yeah, he moved the ship with his own power early on.

Nihilus used TK to fly the ravager out of Malachov V. That's been well known for years.

Beni's a little slow on stuff.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Nihilus used TK to fly the ravager out of Malachov V. That's been well known for years.

Really now? And here I was thinking the ship flew.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Nihilus used TK to fly the ravager out of Malachov V. That's been well known for years.

No one has been denying that. The argument is when did he do so. All we know is it was during the Dark Wars.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The only survivors were the ones he consumed. Everyone else was dead.According to what?I know the story, but I'm saying none of that is mentioned in Nihilus bio, or anywhere in the guide to my knowledge, so it may be an inconsistency.That could easily refer to planetary populations, and within the context of him being a "destroyer of worlds", it probably does.Likely a stylistic choice, since at this point Nihilus has Sith forces at his disposal. Why would he abruptly adopt a crew at this point? Especially when apparently he doesn't need one.

But moving a ship with his mind, OK lol. So a no-name Jedi gets stranded on Malachor, gobbles up the crew and now he can pilot capital ships with the Force? That strikes me as absurd.

Yea. One of those force anomalies that happen occasionally. Its stupid but it happened, whether you like it or not. Happened with the exile as well.

No it didn't, with the Exile she got steadily more powerful over a long period of time, the wound didn't make her suddenly uber strong, in fact it deafened her to the Force.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No it didn't, with the Exile she got steadily more powerful over a long period of time, the wound didn't make her suddenly uber strong, in fact it deafened her to the Force. You mean aside from sion and nihilus being unable to defeat her while forming force bonds at an accelerated level?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
According to what?
The quote you provided showing him consuming people on Malachor V.


Obviously not.


Or you just can't comprehend the bigger picture.


"The Ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V."

You're interpretation doesn't hold up to the implications of the quote.


No. It should be obvious from the KotORCG, and then from that quote, that he gradually made his way up to planetary populations.

I guess I wouldn't expect you to understand.


Because his presence was gradually repairing the ship, as per Avellone. Hence why in KotOR II, we see its engines working.


So is everything related to KotOR II. It's not a big surprise.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You mean aside from sion and nihilus being unable to defeat her while forming force bonds at an accelerated level? Who would have whooped her ass on Peragus, quite.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. It should be obvious from the KotORCG, and then from that quote, that he gradually made his way up to planetary populations.

I guess I wouldn't expect you to understand.

And why couldn't that be under the tutelage of Kreia? Regardless, his bio from the guide makes no mention of him draining "populations" until he meets Kreia and the quote you provided is referring to planetary population as Beni suggested.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Who would have whooped her ass on Peragus, quite. Ah yes, woulda coulda etc. You should have conceded hours ago but i see you're going to beat this dead horse quan style.

Originally posted by ares834
And why couldn't that be under the tutelage of Kreia?
You'd have to be more specific on what "that" is.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You'd have to be more specific on what "that" is.

What you stated. Nihilus gradually devouring larger and larger populations. Why must he have begun to do this prior to meeting Kreia?

Originally posted by ares834
What you stated. Nihilus gradually devouring larger and larger populations. Why must he have begun to do this prior to meeting Kreia? because as he fed, his hunger grew and he had to feed more.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
because as he fed, his hunger grew and he had to feed more.

And? Yes, he has to devour more beings. That doesn't indicate he has to devour dozens of people at a time only that he has to feed more often. As the text notes, "the shorter the satisfaction lasts".

Yeah I'm still not seeing any evidence that Nihilius "feeding relentlessly" involved him moving off-world. On the other hand looking over Unseen, Unheard there are dead crew members floating around, so I guess he didn't need them to pilot the ship.

Originally posted by ares834
What you stated. Nihilus gradually devouring larger and larger populations. Why must he have begun to do this prior to meeting Kreia?
http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/aye10.png

The above states Nihilus began consuming more and more even prior to Kreia's teachings.

Thus, I'm under the impression he was killing dozens to hundreds, but Kreia helped him expand that to thousands.

However, I think my interactions with Beni are blurring my arguments here.

Let's look at the timeline again:

- Darth Nihilus opened himself up to the disturbance of the Mass Shadow Generator.

- Darth Nihilus was on the world of Malachor V and began draining its last survivors.

- Darth Nihilus apprenticed himself to Darth Traya, who taught him how to consume populations.

- Darth Nihilus destroys the planet of Katarr after being notified by Atris of a Jedi Conclave gathering.

So, of these, which one would Darth Nihilus escaping "imprisonment" on Malachor V logically fall between?

It's clearly after draining the survivors but before he apprentices himself to Darth Traya, if you ask me.

He wasn't "imprisoned" on Malachor V during Kreia's teachings, obviously, since he learned how to drain to new heights.

This implies Darth Nihilus was employing his techniques out upon the galaxy and mastering it via experience.

Obviously again note that Darth Nihilus' power is in direct correlation with his hunger, not mastery.

Originally posted by ares834
And? Yes, he has to devour more beings. That doesn't indicate he has to devour dozens of people at a time only that he has to feed more often. As the text notes, "the shorter the satisfaction lasts". it doesn't indicate what you said either. It just means more and exponentially more, it's subject to interpretation.

That Nihilus wasn't imprisoned on Malachor under Kreia's tutelage makes sense, but if he's capable of tearing a ship from the crushing weight of Malachor's gravity, holding that ship together and piloting it through the cosmos with with the Force alone, he's obviously already somehow become a Force user of titanic proportions.

Kreia improved his mastery over Force drain but not his telekinetic abilities, and though he consumed planets after the fact its stated in the KOTORCG that the "dark side macerated him even faster", and we know he needed this Force energy to sustain his own "life energies". Given that is there any evidence to suggest that he actually grew considerably more powerful outside of the scope of drain?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/aye10.png

The above states Nihilus began consuming more and more even prior to Kreia's teachings.

However, I think my interactions with Beni are blurring my arguments here.

Let's look at the timeline again:

- Darth Nihilus was opened himself up to the disturbance of the Mass Shadow Generator.

- Darth Nihilus was on the world of Malachor V and began draining its last survivors.

- Darth Nihilus apprenticed himself to Darth Traya, who taught him how to consume populations.

- Darth Nihilus destroys the planet of Katarr after being notified by Atris of a Jedi Conclave gathering.

So, of these, which one would Darth Nihilus escaping "imprisonment" on Malachor V logically fall between?

Obviously it's after draining the survivors but before he apprentices himself to Darth Traya, if you ask me.

He wasn't "imprisoned" on Malachor V during Kreia's teachings, obviously, since he learned how to drain to new heights.

This implies Darth Nihilus was employing his techniques out upon the galaxy and mastering it via experience.

Obviously again note that Darth Nihilus' power is in direct correlation with no mastery, but hunger.

Using the word "obviously" repeatedly does not make is so. Just because Kreia taught him how to drain a planet does not indicate he had done so at that point.

Now I won't say that Nihilus didn't raise the Ravager prior to meeting Kreia, you've brought up some compelling points. My problem is it seems you are stating it as fact when, I feel, the evidence is not strong enough for such a claim.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
it doesn't indicate what you said either. It just means more and exponentially more, it's subject to interpretation.

It certainly does indicate exactly what I said. Could it also indicate him draining multiple people at a time? Perhaps, but what I claimed is straight up said in the text.

Originally posted by ares834
My problem is it seems you are stating it as fact when, I feel, the evidence is not strong enough for such a claim.
I found it obvious since there's no other logical alternative based on what we know.