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Ok ,I just wanted to say this since the other thread got shut down.
I am not a feminist.
BUT I believe in equal rights and i think it is wrong for guys to make comments about how women belong in the kitchen because in many parts of the world that is still true, women do beong in the kithcen and they don't have a choice to do otherwise.
I think the main thing is that people understand that men and women are different and better at different things, not saying that they an't be just as good.
BUT i do think it is wrong that we still live in a world built on the rules of male dominance and female submissiveness.
Ok, that probably is really dumb and doesn't make sense....

Very much true women are one of the saddest stories of human history but there's are more men out there that respect A women right to be equal.

yes, they should have equal rights, you won't find anyone here who wants it otherwise.

what at least some peopel say is that girls/women shouldn't go "we want equal rights!" when it comes in handy for them and then go yelling "hey! I'm only a girl!" when they should do something

Girls who yell "I'm only a girl" are just stupid, and obviously don't care much about their rights.

they have rights, they just want more because they're "just" girls, that's the problem

well i don't and any girl how does is dumb and expecting double standards.

never said you said it

I'm not touching this one.

Hey, by the way. . . what happened to the Politics Forum?

I TOLD you it was a bad idea. It got ugly, didn't it? Once again, Luke wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I say that all the time)

Three strikes, luke is out
not enough interest, no fight

Well. . . whatever. . .

bad loser

While women should have the opportunity to do anything they want, it is a simle fact that women are more capable of doing some things than men and vice versa. Women tend to be more squeamish about "icky" things but it is a scientific fact that women are better at manual labor involving tools.

And women cannot deep sea dive... odd the way the world works out.

Why?

Something to do with pressure, I believe. A woman's internal make-up is not designed for that environment.

women shouldnt be fire fighters either, they arent as strong as men for the most part.

Oh lord...last two comments are too stupid to even comment on...

shows how little men know about women.

Nah, just Ush and BF..

actually never seen a female fire fighter, what do they do? wash out the hose afterwards or?

I met a female firefighter in Miami, I think she did the cooking and cleaning at the Fire station.

before Dim explodes ... I know of at least one women in the Antwerp fire brigade and she's as much a firefighter as the others

So Antwerp has a lot of firefighter who do the dishes then

yes, lots of people means lots of dishes to wash

men and women doing that together

now thats was funny

I don't think the squeamish thing is true, as there are plenty of women in the health professions, and I, myself, am not in the least bit sqeamish - anybody who's had to sit up all night with a sick pet knows what I'm talking about! Some things, though, men CAN do better than women and vice versa - but not ALL the time. Like, for example, women bodybuilders and just basically strong women could pick up far heavier loads than some men. It's all a matter of what you personally can do. My brother used to be stronger than me, but then I got involved in theatre and he just sat at his computer all day. Believe me, shifting heavy flats and scenery at past midnight, when you've been rehearsing all day and just wanna go HOME sorts out the weak from the strong!

I've been to Antwerp... we went to the zoo, its really nice, and the animals have tons of space, they aren't cooped up at all!

Ok, ok, I promise not to turn this thread into animal rights...

no they don't! there are still plenty of animals who should get much more space!

Whaaat? too many big words Ush, what does it all mean?

nothing

Oh good, shan't read it then.

don't do the trouble, it's gone

I'm not going to explode...just want to take note of the knuckle draggers who think that strength is the only defining factor of being a fire fighter... stupid stupid boys.

hey! I'm not stupid!
I'm retarded

Ya know, they even let women join the army now..... Sheesh, welcome to the 21st century people.

(And besides this was all going on in the 20th century as well!)

WHA-AT? women in the army? this must be stopped!
This is outrageous! I demand a commitee must be send to investigate this matter!

It's strange how so many (prersent company excluded) can still see sexism as ok, even though they recognise that racism is a bad thing.

Any kind of discrimination is a bad thing, whether it be creed, colour, sex, disability, shape or any other of a multitude of factors.

And feminism and chauvenism simply collude to perpetuate the problem.

don't know the situation in england, but in belgium with have
1) a law, making discrimination in any way a fellony (sp)
2) a centre where you can file a complaint about any discriminating behavior and they will look into it and even sue the one if you have a case
3) forgot one, but I know there were three things

the problem i have with the woman fire fighters is this.... women take a completely different test then men do to become fire fighters, because the male test would be to hard for them. so they get an easier one. i dont think thats fare at all, because then that means that more efficient male fire fighters arent getting to become ones, because the women who get a better score on the female test get the job first, even though on the male test they probably woulda scored lower. now id have no problem with it if they all took 1 test. but that cant happen because if that was the case there wouldnt be any women fire fighters....or very few of them... and they'd complain and blah blah blah. i just dont think thats right.

Now I don't agree with that. The test should be universal. Certainly in the UK I understand that it is.

Absolutely. Whilst strength is not all there is in firefighting, there IS a minimum strength level required for the job and this should be universal, male or female.

Well, I gues it's just the women I know who are squeamish but we have to go get my dad to kill all the bugs.

women in the army is a laugh, they never gonna achive the respect it requires to lead a unit, regardless of GI Jane

Ush deleted his post.

clever move

*holds arms in front of chest*
possibly

Why have women got smaller feet?





So they can stand closer to the kitchen sink.


Only joking. We now have more female press-workers at my place than male. The reason being, that without doubt the women handle the repetative work better than the men. But we also have to have some blokes to handle the heavier work we do.

smaller frame, generally. there are exceptions. he he.

Short comment:
I am so against feminists! Women claim the same rights with men and to be equal and then when they have to i.e. carry luggage or something then they remember... "Oh! But I'm a woman!"
Yeah, right...

Does seem a bit off I agree.

I don't know much about feminism.

Jessica Lynch. That's all I have to say.

She wasn't actually a front line solider, was she?

She was tortured and was an inch from death! Most frontline soldiers don't experience that

LaurenE147 is speaking the truth. I used to participate in this same discussion on the debating forum.

theres always an exception, she was it.

Agreed.

Yes, but most questions abotu women in the armed forces revolve around whether they should be allowed in the front line or not.

Why shouldn't they? It's not like a woman isn't capable. Some women aren't capable just as some men aren't capable.

Continuous studies have shown that having women in the front line reduces operational effectiveness. Mostly the fault of the men.

I guess its a protective thing.

they think they have to take care of us. peeshaw

But that is how it is, so there you go.

Its their instinct. Its how they are. No use fighting evolution.

i think it would be ok if only ugly women faught, then men wouldnt be distracted liek we are by good looking women.

You can say Jessica Lynch all you want, rumors now is that the Jessica Lynch thing was a PR stunt. When you think about it it was the only soldier they had a story on when she went MIA and surprise surprise she got rescued and they all lived happily ever after. No doubt she was injured but they say she never got captured by the Iraqies she was retrieved after being injured by the coalition forces. I dont know but we havent heard all in this case so I guess we just have to wait to see.

When I say women dont gonna achieve the respect required to lead a unit. I was talking about women in leading position and I do speak out of experience since I have a history as a soldier and actually still enlisted as a mobile reserve unit. (National Guard kind of thing or Home Guard as we call it)

And WHY do you think they're not going to achieve the respect.

I dont think I know, because they cant do all the things needed to be a leader. A leader of a military unit should be the best one of all the memebrs of that unit. The females aint as strong as most males nor are they as fast as them. When it comes to military stuff you respect those who knows more than you do and are best one to do stuff.
Women aint fit for military life not as leaders,neither are all men

Thats the best idea I've heard in ages, lets ship out the ugly-bugs for combat.

Now the feminism has diminished and all we have left is Uglyism that's better.

indeed it is or ..........

Lets not make fools of ourselves men do not have to apologize for the mistakes of others as Women do not have to apologize for the mistakes of other women, but let me show you this very interesting jewel online.

vp8tToFv-bA

And that is the TRUTH of it.

Men you are raised to protect and die for your family and there is nothing higher or more valuable that I can give to a woman than my own life, if she can't see that, if she can't appreciate that then she does not belongs with me.

Men We are getting suckered and being conditioned to believe that We are doing something wrong to women and that we should feel bad for woman.

So stop believing that BS of feminism the truth is that woman want ALWAYS more, no matter how much you give them, is never enough.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El

So stop believing that BS of feminism the truth is that woman want ALWAYS more, no matter how much you give them, is never enough. Lets test that theory by giving them respect and equal treatment.

I agree. Feminism is an evil ideology and women deserve, nay, need to be subjugated by men.

I'll put this form of action into motion tomorrow against my cute(but bitchy feminist) sophomore math professor. Nothing like a good bit of student/teacher porn fantasy enactment in addition to carrying out my duty to upholding us males' manhoodness.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I agree. Feminism is an evil ideology and women deserve, nay, need to be subjugated by men.

I'll put this form of action into motion tomorrow against my cute(but bitchy feminist) sophomore math professor. Nothing like a good bit of student/teacher porn fantasy enactment in addition to carrying out my duty to upholding us males' manhoodness.

Take pics. Of her.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Take pics. Of her.
I'd much rather enslave, dominate and ravage her.

I hate taking pics, especially selfies. That's why you won't find a pic of me on the "What do you look like" thread.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Lets test that theory by giving them respect and equal treatment.

That will mean that they have to give the same in return and that society has to give you that too, but You and I know you cannot be treated like a woman because you a man and also women are not treated like men.

Yes, feminists want men to be freed from societal oppression as well. The idea is that there shouldn't be anything like "treated like a man" or "treated like a woman" but just a "treated like a person" that goes for everyone, and throws out the shitty parts that men and women have to face.

Feminists are your friends if you want to work on hardships that men face due to patriarchy.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I'd much rather enslave, dominate and ravage her.

I hate taking pics, especially selfies. That's why you won't find a pic of me on the "What do you look like" thread.

No that's fine. Just take them of her. You can be entirely out of frame.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No that's fine. Just take them of her. You can be entirely out of frame.
No, I hate photographing shit period.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, feminists want men to be freed from societal oppression as well. The idea is that there shouldn't be anything like "treated like a man" or "treated like a woman" but just a "treated like a person" that goes for everyone, and throws out the shitty parts that men and women have to face.

Feminists are your friends if you want to work on hardships that men face due to patriarchy.

Honestly I have never meet a feminist that feels empathy for men, neither I have ever meet a chauvinistic man who feels empathy for women.

However I can tell you that I have meet men or women that feel empathy for the opposite gender WHEN they are not on either side of an extreme ideology.

That however can't be said for the goverment or society in general.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Honestly I have never meet a feminist that feels empathy for men

Well, let me introduce myself....


Chauvinism and feminism are not two sides of the same coin. Feminism does not hate men, or masculinity, all it wants to achieve is gender equality (admittedly historically with mainly a focus on female issues, although not solely) and an end to a system that treats people differently based on their gender.

Since when did feminism become synonymous with misandry?

I don't think Rao Kal El actually knows what feminism is.
Originally posted by Astner
Since when did feminism become synonymous with misogyny?
Do you mean misandry?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Do you mean misandry?
I was thinking that, but I think he's probably replying to the chauvinism statement. Where Rao compared feminism to chauvinism.

Shit like that is why i'm an egalitarian.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Shit like that is why i'm an egalitarian.

Eh, once "egalitarians" achieve anything maybe we can talk about that. So far anyone I talked to that says "I'm not a feminist, I'm an egalitarian" really just meant "I can't be bothered to do anything about what's wrong, and really would just rather have these women shut up"

Originally posted by Bardock42
Eh, once "egalitarians" achieve anything maybe we can talk about that. So far anyone I talked to that says "I'm not a feminist, I'm an egalitarian" really just meant "I can't be bothered to do anything about what's wrong, and really would just rather have these women shut up"

Or maybe I just don't think Feminist groups are really that interested in helping men in general. Hence I want proper equality.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Or maybe I just don't think Feminist groups are really that interested in helping men in general. Hence I want proper equality.

Nah

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah

Yes.

Bardock is a traitor to the Ys.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Or maybe I just don't think Feminist groups are really that interested in helping men in general. Hence I want proper equality.

This is how I feel

Originally posted by -Pr-
Or maybe I just don't think Feminist groups are really that interested in helping men in general. Hence I want proper equality.

Well you have to understand that feminism historically had to focus on women due to the vast difference in treatment. And when we get to issues like how rape is handled/presented it's clear there's a reason it's still the focus. That said baring some extreme sub groups that like to talk shit online no one is anti men and tend to support men's right to act differently then the gender roles suggest

So, you are for "true" equality, Pr? What do you feel has to be achieved for that? What issues do women face that you think need to be worked on, what issues do men face? How do you think they can be worked on? Are you in any egalitarian groups that have been working towards a goal, or is this mostly lip service like I said about most egalitarians?

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Well you have to understand that feminism historically had to focus on women due to the vast difference in treatment. And when we get to issues like how rape is handled/presented it's clear there's a reason it's still the focus. That said baring some extreme sub groups that like to talk shit online no one is anti men and tend to support men's right to act differently the gender roles suggest

This is exactly right

I'll be the first one to say feminists are quick to misfire, especially on the internet. But I think it's silly to act like the overall idea/movement for different treatment/proper respect of women is somehow wrong

Originally posted by Astner
Since when did feminism become synonymous with misandry?
I am guessing since every single instance wherein a feminist makes a crude joke about castration, or the fact that thanks to feminism, the US divorce laws went from being biased in favor of men to being biased in favor of women, instead of being biased in favor of hermaphrodites/eunuchs since they are equal parts men and women.

The last part is pure conjecture on my part, since I know shitall about divorce laws(American or not) in general.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So, you are for "true" equality, Pr? What do you feel like has to be achieved for that?
All grown women becoming overtly submissive to all grown men.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I am guessing since every single instance wherein a feminist makes a crude joke about castration, or the fact that thanks to feminism, the US divorce laws went from being biased in favor of men to being biased in favor of women, instead of being biased in favor of hermaphrodites/eunuchs since they are equal parts men and women.

The last part is pure conjecture on my part, since I know shitall about divorce laws(American or not) in general.

I lol'd.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Well you have to understand that feminism historically had to focus on women due to the vast difference in treatment. And when we get to issues like how rape is handled/presented it's clear there's a reason it's still the focus. That said baring some extreme sub groups that like to talk shit online no one is anti men and tend to support men's right to act differently then the gender roles suggest

I have zero problem with feminism helping women to achieve parity in situations in which they don't have it. That's never been an issue for me, and I applaud anyone that's actually working to achieve those kinds of goals.

I just don't like the way certain groups say they want to help men, while at the same time stabbing them in the back.

Equality for one gender doesn't mean taking a big, steaming shit on the other. Men and women are supposed to be a team, not enemies.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So, you are for "true" equality, Pr? What do you feel has to be achieved for that? What issues do women face that you think need to be worked on, what issues do men face? How do you think they can be worked on? Are you in any egalitarian groups that have been working towards a goal, or is this mostly lip service like I said about most egalitarians?

What do I feel has to be achieved for true equality? Is it not really self-explanatory that we need to look at the ways men and women suffer inequality, and to work to eliminate that?

How can they be worked on? By combining forces, and to stop seeing each other as adversaries.

I haven't done as much as I would have liked to, but I have done what little I can. I donate what little money I can afford to shelters for both men and women. I engage with politicians when they come around, and ask them about issues that directly affect equality. I vote when shit comes up.

There are no real egalitarian groups in Ireland, but I don't see how joining up with a Feminist group that acts like i'm the enemy (and I have encountered some) would do anybody any good.

So while it's not as much as I would like, I am making what effort I can.

Same question to you.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think Rao Kal El actually knows what feminism is.

Do you mean misandry?

It is mainly because feminism historically has focused mainly on female problems.

Remember that case in Florida where a young female teacher had an affair with a 14 or 16 year old kid?

I don't recall any feminist group saying anything about that (maybe I just miss it)

But in role reversal comes true equality, IMO

If there is a group that actually is looking for gender equality they work on both sides of the isle equally they should not focus 80 to 90% of their focus on problems of one gender and 20% on the problems of the other gender, because that is not equal.

We as males have our own share of gender treatment just because We are men and historically almost no one has look into it.

Maybe is because We are raised to not complain and to suck it up, because We are men, but the problems are there, yet most of the effort goes into fixing the female issues rather than fixing BOTH genders issues.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
It is mainly because feminism historically has focused mainly on female problems.

Remember that case in Florida where a young female teacher had an affair with a 14 or 16 year old kid?

I don't recall any feminist group saying anything about that (maybe I just miss it)

But in role reversal comes true equality, IMO

If there is a group that actually is looking for gender equality they work on both sides of the isle equally they should not focus 80 to 90% of their focus on problems of one gender and 20% on the problems of the other gender, because that is not equal.

We as males have our own share of gender treatment just because We are men and historically almost no one has look into it.

Maybe is because We are raised to not complain and to suck it up, because We are men, but the problems are there, yet most of the effort goes into fixing the female issues rather than fixing BOTH genders issues.

To be fair, there are women's issues that do deserve as much attention as any that men might have. Putting one ahead of the other is what causes all these problems in the first place.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I have zero problem with feminism helping women to achieve parity in situations in which they don't have it. That's never been an issue for me, and I applaud anyone that's actually working to achieve those kinds of goals.

I just don't like the way certain groups say they want to help men, while at the same time stabbing them in the back.

Equality for one gender doesn't mean taking a big, steaming shit on the other. Men and women are supposed to be a team, not enemies.



.

I agree some individuals and groups within it are extreme and fall into misandry but to me that isn't a knock on the movement itself. Just like the civil rights movement wasn't anti white just because NOI ended up with a lot of followers. The overall goal isn't men as enemies it's in changing how society treats it. And you can support multiple movements at once, so being feminist doesn't mean I can't support causes where men are unfairly looked at such as custody cases.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Remember that case in Florida where a young female teacher had an affair with a 14 or 16 year old kid?

I don't recall any feminist group saying anything about that (maybe I just miss it)

IIRC, the teacher ended up serving jail time for a couple years.

Or am I remembering a different case? Anyhoo, in majority of these student/teacher cases, the teacher is the one who is charged as being guilty of statutory rape. Not the other way round.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
I agree some individuals and groups within it are extreme and fall into misandry but to me that isn't a knock on the movement itself. Just like the civil rights movement wasn't anti white just because NOI ended up with a lot of followers. The overall goal isn't men as enemies it's in changing how society treats it. And you can support multiple movements at once, so being feminist doesn't mean I can't support causes where men are unfairly looked at such as custody cases.

Of course, and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

Just like I'm sure that 90%, if not more, of the average women on the street who identify as feminists, don't want to bury men in the ground or have them all exterminated, or some such.

I just hate this idea that men don't have issues just because women have them too, and then they get ignored because "women have it worse".

As if compassion is some sort of finite ****ing resource.

Originally posted by -Pr-

What do I feel has to be achieved for true equality? Is it not really self-explanatory that we need to look at the ways men and women suffer inequality, and to work to eliminate that?

That is exactly my issue with egalitarianism. They don't do that, they don't consider what issues people actually face. It's an extremely simplistic movement that's really just "it would be nice if everyone's equal, but I don't want to think about what that means". Feminism has a long history of exactly pointing out how and why women are treated differently (and luckily a lot of the great work they've done can be applied to men) and it has actively worked to destroy the structures that uphold this inequality.

I can understand that you feel excluded, like Lek Kuen said there are extremist and, imo, inappropriate people that work under the banner for feminism, but that's really a minority. Most feminists are people that want to do good.

Egalitarianism makes one feel good, but leads to nothing, it's a way to not face things. Feminism hurts you, because it makes you face what you've done wrong in the past, what you still do wrong, and also what you can't help, it's uncomfortable, but at least it does something good (for women AND men).

Originally posted by Epicurus
I am guessing since every single instance wherein a feminist makes a crude joke about castration, or the fact that thanks to feminism, the US divorce laws went from being biased in favor of men to being biased in favor of women, instead of being biased in favor of hermaphrodites/eunuchs since they are equal parts men and women.

The last part is pure conjecture on my part, since I know shitall about divorce laws(American or not) in general.

I have a story to share in here.

I know this guy which I will name "Roger" who is a very successful business man, he owns a business that makes a lot of money and he lives comfortably.

He was married to this woman that I will name "Sue"

So Roger being a successful man he had the money, so Sue did not need to work, she stayed home raising the kids, she was a very pretty woman, went to the beauty shop often so she can look good and also spent some at the gym everyday.

One day Roger finds out that Sue is cheating on him with the gym trainer, she cheated on him, not him on her.

They file for divorce and Roger gets kick out of his brand new house, he looses the Porsche SUV and the kids stay with her, plus He has to give her money.

Roger had to hire very expensive lawyers to fix this situation whole Sue did not have to expend a single penny to get what she got.

In the end, Roger kept the house, He lost the Porsche SUV, they share custody of the kids, but he has to give her money for her beauty shop/ gym routine "because she got used to that lifestyle, because of him, and because of that now is his obligation"

If you ask me, I think that is pretty unfair for him as SHE was the one who cheated.

That is how Florida laws treat men when it comes down to divorce.

A marriage is a contract to pool your resources for the good of the family you create. The guy isn't a successful businessman in a vacuum, rather his wife, at least in theory, is helping him by, for example, taking care of the children or household. If one is not willing to be part of such a union one should not marry, or change the terms of the contract via a pre-nup.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That is exactly my issue with egalitarianism. They don't do that, they don't consider what issues people actually face. It's an extremely simplistic movement that's really just "it would be nice if everyone's equal, but I don't want to think about what that means". Feminism has a long history of exactly pointing out how and why women are treated differently (and luckily a lot of the great work they've done can be applied to men) and it has actively worked to destroy the structures that uphold this inequality.

I can understand that you feel excluded, like Lek Kuen said there are extremist and, imo, inappropriate people that work under the banner for feminism, but that's really a minority. Most feminists are people that want to do good.

Egalitarianism makes one feel good, but leads to nothing, it's a way to not face things. Feminism hurts you, because it makes you face what you've done wrong in the past, what you still do wrong, and also what you can't help, it's uncomfortable, but at least it does something good (for women AND men).

If i'm not egalitarian, then what should I be? I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't mean I won't stand outside Leinster House (our politician offices) with a placard that wants bodily autonomy for women.

I just reserve the right to want financial autonomy for men, as I don't think any one person has the right to control another.

Groups claiming to Feminist ones fought against equal parenting rights. They fought against the idea of protecting men that are falsely accused of rape. They fought against equal sentencing for equal crimes. They fought against men wanting domestic violence shelters, and the right for men not to be automatically assumed to be the perpetrator (and it isn't the vast majority of cases in which men are the perpetrator either). They fought against female rapists being charged as harshly as male ones. They actively fought against raising awareness of the point that women can, and have, raped men. Remember those "don't be that guy" posters? They fought against making child support a more robust, fairer system. When the recession hit and the government in the US tried to help the men that had been hit by the massive job losses in construction (a field in which 80% of the employees are men), it was attacked as being discriminatory.

Are these all feminists? No. Are they a vocal minority? Maybe so, but they are the vocal ones, which mean they are the ones being heard.

In the end, it comes down to the question of whether feminism should treat men's issues with the same attention that they do those of women. I actually don't think that they should. Women do suffer inequality in many ways, and those ways need to be addressed. If I, personally, have the opportunity to help any woman achieve parity, I will gladly do so.

I just expect the issues of men (which do exist, and aren't really being looked at with any real attention right now), to be treated with some respect, and to not simply be dismissed simply because they happen to be the problems of men.

There's room for both, imo.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I have a story to share in here.

I know this guy which I will name "Roger" who is a very successful business man, he owns a business that makes a lot of money and he lives comfortably.

He was married to this woman that I will name "Sue"

So Roger being a successful man he had the money, so Sue did not need to work, she stayed home raising the kids, she was a very pretty woman, went to the beauty shop often so she can look good and also spent some at the gym everyday.

One day Roger finds out that Sue is cheating on him with the gym trainer, she cheated on him, not him on her.

They file for divorce and Roger gets kick out of his brand new house, he looses the Porsche SUV and the kids stay with her, plus He has to give her money.

Roger had to hire very expensive lawyers to fix this situation whole Sue did not have to expend a single penny to get what she got.

In the end, Roger kept the house, He lost the Porsche SUV, they share custody of the kids, but he has to give her money for her beauty shop/ gym routine "because she got used to that lifestyle, because of him, and because of that now is his obligation"

If you ask me, I think that is pretty unfair for him as SHE was the one who cheated.

That is how Florida laws treat men when it comes down to divorce.

I think that, while she should be given a settlement, as marriage is supposed to be a partnership, but I hate this whole "this is the life i was accustomed to, so now you have to fund it" bullshit.

Originally posted by Bardock42
A marriage is a contract to pool your resources for the good of the family you create. The guy isn't a successful businessman in a vacuum, rather his wife, at least in theory, is helping him by, for example, taking care of the children or household. If one is not willing to be part of such a union one should not marry, or change the terms of the contract via a pre-nup.
If that is your way of defending the clear bias showed in favor of the female spouse in majority of the divorce cases, then you might as well start justifying the average Indian defecating everywhere they go since poop is rich in nitrogen, which is good for the soil.awesr

Originally posted by -Pr-

I just expect the issues of men (which do exist, and aren't really being looked at with any real attention right now), to be treated with some respect, and to not simply be dismissed simply because they happen to be the problems of men.

There's room for both, imo.



While they should, the idea of men's right is mostly populated (or was hijacked by) by the sort of assholes who demand women give them sex and blame them for being raped. So maybe the men movement needs a new name

Originally posted by -Pr-
If i'm not egalitarian, then what should I be? I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't mean I won't stand outside Leinster House (our politician offices) with a placard that wants bodily autonomy for women.

I just reserve the right to want financial autonomy for men, as I don't think any one person has the right to control another.

Groups claiming to Feminist ones fought against equal parenting rights. They fought against the idea of protecting men that are falsely accused of rape. They fought against equal sentencing for equal crimes. They fought against men wanting domestic violence shelters, and the right for men not to be automatically assumed to be the perpetrator (and it isn't the vast majority of cases in which men are the perpetrator either). They fought against female rapists being charged as harshly as male ones. They actively fought against raising awareness of the point that women can, and have, raped men. Remember those "don't be that guy" posters? They fought against making child support a more robust, fairer system. When the recession hit and the government in the US tried to help the men that had been hit by the massive job losses in construction (a field in which 80% of the employees are men), it was attacked as being discriminatory.

Are these all feminists? No. Are they a vocal minority? Maybe so, but they are the vocal ones, which mean they are the ones being heard.

In the end, it comes down to the question of whether feminism should treat men's issues with the same attention that they do those of women. I actually don't think that they should. Women do suffer inequality in many ways, and those ways need to be addressed. If I, personally, have the opportunity to help any woman achieve parity, I will gladly do so.

I just expect the issues of men (which do exist, and aren't really being looked at with any real attention right now), to be treated with some respect, and to not simply be dismissed simply because they happen to be the problems of men.

There's room for both, imo.


Well, perhaps my tone was too sharp, I did not mean to personally attack you. Rather an issue I have perceived with people that call themselves egalitarian. Too often it is used, imo, to disregard the issues. I think a true egalitarian would stand with feminists 90% of the time at least, but mostly I see it as a cop out, to still seem open minded, but not have to commit to anything. Again, I'm not saying you are like that, I hope you are not, because an egalitarian that is mostly pro-feminist issues would be a great ally to have, it just doesn't seem to happen in practice, at least not in my experience.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
While they should, the idea of men's right is mostly populated (or was hijacked by) by the sort of assholes who demand women give them sex and blame them for being raped. So the maybe men movement needs a new name

Oh yes, people under the banner of MRA are way, way worse. They are actively harming the cause of men, imo.

People that claim to be egalitarian, generally just don't do anything either way, in my experience.

Originally posted by Epicurus
If that is your way of defending the clear bias showed in favor of the female spouse in majority of the divorce cases, then you might as well start justifying the average Indian defecating everywhere they go since poop is rich in nitrogen, which is good for the soil.awesr

I don't see the similarity. Sure we can argue about what a marriage generally entails, and how one should be compensated for doing the jobs that do not generate revenue for a family. And I do agree with PR, that the lifestyle excuse is bullshit. But if two people marry, and decide that one of them takes care of the children and household and the other focusses on their career, the fruits of that career should not be solely viewed as the property of the partner that got to focus on their career.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, perhaps my tone was too sharp, I did not mean to personally attack you. Rather an issue I have perceived with people that call themselves egalitarian. Too often it is used, imo, to disregard the issues. I think a true egalitarian would stand with feminists 90% of the time at least, but mostly I see it as a cop out, to still seem open minded, but not have to commit to anything. Again, I'm not saying you are like that, I hope you are not, because an egalitarian that is mostly pro-feminist issues would be a great ally to have, it just doesn't seem to happen in practice, at least not in my experience.

I honestly just want things to be fair across the board, that's all. I don't feel like Feminism or the groups that identify as such, truly want that, from what I've seen, so I look elsewhere.

Maybe I don't belong to any group; I don't mind if that's true. my desire for parity doesn't have to be defined by any one movement.

Honestly, it's a sensitive subject, im sure words will be said that might come across the wrong way. I don't mean hostility against anyone really. Not on any personal level.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh yes, people under the banner of MRA are way, way worse. They are actively harming the cause of men, imo.

People that claim to be egalitarian, generally just don't do anything either way, in my experience.

Honestly, I don't agree. There is a lot of misinformation out there about MRAs, and they do actively work to spread awareness of men's issues. Hell, it's where I got most of the links I read that led me to the information I now know.

MRAs in the majority, just like the majority of feminists, just want fairness, and for inequality to become equality.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't see the similarity.
I don't expect you to, either.

Originally posted by -Pr-



Honestly, I don't agree. There is a lot of misinformation out there about MRAs, and they do actively work to spread awareness of men's issues. Hell, it's where I got most of the links I read that led me to the information I now know.

MRAs in the majority, just like the majority of feminists, just want fairness, and for inequality to become equality.

I can't speak internationally but around here there isn't much of a mainstream MRA presence, where as it's easy to determine feminist sub groups due to how large and well known the movement is.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I don't expect you to, either.

Then we are on the same page. Maybe. Who knows...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Then we are on the same page. Maybe. Who knows...
Nah, not really. You're going off on bullshit tangents about the legal and technical definitions of marriage, while addressing a post that highlights an example of the modern-day American divorce laws, which seem to be lopsidedly favorable towards women.

Hence, me analogizing said bullshit with humanshit. Because humans are shittier than bulls. And pigs. And cockroaches. And humans.

I might have had a bit too much Scotch to drink.

Originally posted by Epicurus

I might have had a bit too much Scotch to drink.

Possibly.


But, like, my point is, Rao's story doesn't prove any sort of gender bias. Rather it's a story of a guy who signed a contract, that apparently in retrospect he didn't like the terms of.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Honestly, I don't agree. There is a lot of misinformation out there about MRAs, and they do actively work to spread awareness of men's issues. Hell, it's where I got most of the links I read that led me to the information I now know.

MRAs in the majority, just like the majority of feminists, just want fairness, and for inequality to become equality.
Could you share some of the links that link you to these mythical-sounding MRAs?

Because most MRA websites I go to, they do one, 2 or all 3 of these 3 things:
1. Bash feminists.
2. Openly or backhandedly justify rape.
3. Try to make the shittiest arguments possible in favor of the idea that women shouldn't be enrolled in the Army, or be doctors, or scientists/engineers or any of the other traditionally male-dominated fields.
4.(Yeah, I know I said 3, but still) Bash feminists some more.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
I can't speak internationally but around hear there isn't much of a mainstream MRA presence, where as it's easy to determine feminist sub groups due to how large and well known the movement is.

It's only starting to gain traction now, so i'm honestly not surprised. It'll take time, but I'm hopeful that they'll be able to raise awareness and spur change.

Hell, they already helped Ireland to get a domestic violence shelter for men open, so they can do good work.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But, like, my point is, Rao's story doesn't prove any sort of gender bias. Rather it's a story of a guy who signed a contract, that apparently in retrospect he didn't like the terms of.
I am sorry but where exactly did you get the transcript of said "contract"?

Because as far as I can tell, Rao's example is just another tired old example of a woman almost screwing a guy over in divorce settlement, even though she is the one to blame here(she engaged in adultery, not him).

Here is a link citing Teacher/Student case IN FLORIDA for males a female teachers and what was the outcome.

Female cases are only on page 6

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-04-25/news/fl-teacher-misconduct-profiles-20100416_1_education-practices-commission-alex-anninos-science-teacher/6

Rao provided it. He said they are married in Florida, that's the contract he agreed to. Personally I wish that was made more clear, but well because of traditional bullshit it's obfuscated.


How do we know that she screwed him over? They were married and had children together, so, like I said, obviously his career is not solely based on him, she supported him.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Could you share some of the links that link you to these mythical-sounding MRAs?

Because most MRA websites I go to, they do one, 2 or all 3 of these 3 things:
1. Bash feminists.
2. Openly or backhandedly justify rape.
3. Try to make the shittiest arguments possible in favor of the idea that women shouldn't be enrolled in the Army, or be doctors, or scientists/engineers or any of the other traditionally male-dominated fields.
4.(Yeah, I know I said 3, but still) Bash feminists some more.

The main one I view is the section on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/

There is a fair bit of shite there, but when they do stuff well, they really do it well. if you look in the sidebar, they offer a lot of good information and reading material.

Obviously, not everything can be taken blindly, but there is a lot of really good, well-backed up information available through them.

A Voice for Men is a bit more of a dual personality site:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/

They can have some amazing, well-written stuff at times, and then there's the women-hating bullshit.

Seriously though, why would anyone hate women? Individual ones can be *****, sure, but on the whole they're awesome in so many ways.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Rao provided it. He said they are married in Florida, that's the contract he agreed to. Personally I wish that was made more clear, but well because of traditional bullshit it's obfuscated.


How do we know that she screwed him over? They were married and had children together, so, like I said, obviously his career is not solely based on him, she supported him.
What contract? That she gets to screw him over to the point where he has to rely on expensive lawyers to save his ass, while she doesn't get to spend a single goddamned dime?

Hey, I am just going off of Rao's account. If you have proof that his citation of said account is suspect, then bring it over for everyone to see.

Otherwise quit using apologist semantics to justify the fact that American divorce laws are horribly biased in favor of women these days.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The main one I view is the section on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/

There is a fair bit of shite there, but when they do stuff well, they really do it well. if you look in the sidebar, they offer a lot of good information and reading material.

Obviously, not everything can be taken blindly, but there is a lot of really good, well-backed up information available through them.

A Voice for Men is a bit more of a dual personality site:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/

They can have some amazing, well-written stuff at times, and then there's the women-hating bullshit.

Seriously though, why would anyone hate women? Individual ones can be *****, sure, but on the whole they're awesome in so many ways.

Those are the two ones I base my view of MRA on as well, interesting we come to opposite conclusions.

Then there's also the truly crazy ones, like The Red Pill, Return of Kings, Men Going Their Own Way...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Rao provided it. He said they are married in Florida, that's the contract he agreed to. Personally I wish that was made more clear, but well because of traditional bullshit it's obfuscated.


How do we know that she screwed him over? They were married and had children together, so, like I said, obviously his career is not solely based on him, she supported him.

I think she is entitled of some of the money they made together, however she is the one who decided to end the agreement by committing adultery and the husband finding out.

Though I disagree on his business being successful because she was helping him by raising the kids and staying at home.

The success of the business depends on how HE or SHE (the owner of the business) manage the business, not to weather the wife or the husband stay at home and take care of the kids, but she is still entitled 1/2 of the money they got as group.

The tricky part is that she got that "lifestyle" crap accepted by the court and he had to pay for it, even though she was the one who decide to risk the marriage by sleeping with the gym trainer, that by the way was also being paid by him.

Originally posted by Epicurus

Otherwise quit using apologist semantics to justify the fact that American divorce laws are horribly biased in favor of women these days.

But they aren't really. They just account for the fact that men generally take the role of bread winner, while women do domestic duties, in order to come to an equitable separation. Not accounting for that unjustly favour the revenue generating part of a family.

Originally posted by -Pr-


Seriously though, why would anyone hate women? Individual ones can be *****, sure, but on the whole they're awesome in so many ways.

What kills me is the people who hate women are often same ones who don't get why they have trouble getting women

Originally posted by Bardock42
They just really aren't. They just account for the fact that men generally take the role of bread winner, while women do domestic duties, in order to come to an equitable separation. Not accounting for that unjustly favour the revenue generating part of a family.


That may have been the case in the 60s, or even in the 80s.

This is 2014. And women, at least in the West, have almost closed the gap in the employment rate with men, with females surpassing males in some areas/regions. You could make the unequal wages argument, but that is a separate issue and has a host of factors which contribute to it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Those are the two ones I base my view of MRA on as well, interesting we come to opposite conclusions.

Then there's also the truly crazy ones, like The Red Pill, Return of Kings, Men Going Their Own Way...

Red Pill are *****. They don't give a **** about helping men gain equality in the areas where they're at a disadvantage. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as MRAs, imo.

MGTOW is still not really what I would call a branch of MRA either, but that's imo.

A lot of the men on reddit are deeply cynical because they've lost their kids or been through messy divorces, so there is some wiggle room where you have to take things with a pinch of salt.

the MRA section on reddit does provide a lot of good information though, if you take the time to read through it.

Originally posted by Lek Kuen
What kills me is the people who hate women are often same ones who don't get why they have trouble getting women

Aye. I mean sure, there are bad women, but there are bad men too.

Originally posted by Epicurus


That may have been the case in the 60s, or even in the 80s.

This is 2014. And women, at least in the West, have almost closed the gap in the employment rate with men, with females surpassing males in some areas/regions. You could make the unequal wages argument, but that is a separate issue and has a host of factors which contribute to it.

Rao's example is one of traditional gender roles. If he can show one where the man and woman worked equally as much to contribute to the family and yet the man was still the one having to pay upon separation then he should post that. Since he didn't, it's not relevant.

Originally posted by Epicurus
What contract? That she gets to screw him over to the point where he has to rely on expensive lawyers to save his ass, while she doesn't get to spend a single goddamned dime?

Hey, I am just going off of Rao's account. If you have proof that his citation of said account is suspect, then bring it over for everyone to see.

Otherwise quit using apologist semantics to justify the fact that American divorce laws are horribly biased in favor of women these days.

Yes, divorce law is biased towards women at least in Florida.

I do not know if this is a common trend (or I just notice it), but there are divorce specialist for men now, there are not too many, but there are some.

feminists always say if you believe in equality then you're a feminist. by that standard i'm a feminist, i think.

the thing which makes me reluctant to use that label is that i constantly see feminists making an issue out of shit i really don't care about or might even disagree with them about. it seems like they don't stick to political issues but want to dive into the media and what kinds of ideas need to be promoted and what kinds of ideas should be blacklisted. that kind of shit really turns me off.

The public face of feminism has been suffering lately. I'm beginning to wonder if mainstream feminism has indeed been hijacked by tumblrists, man-blamers, and witless screeching harpies in general.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
The public face of feminism has been suffering lately. I'm beginning to wonder if mainstream feminism has indeed been hijacked by tumblrists, man-blamers, and witless screeching harpies in general.

Yeah, the previously pristine image of feminism, beloved by all.....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, the previously pristine image of feminism, beloved by all..... Bardock's right.

Feminism has basically always been run by tumblrists, man-blamers, and witless screeching harpies in general.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Bardock's right.

Feminism has basically always been run by tumblrists, man-blamers, and witless screeching harpies in general.

I'm pretty sure feminism predates the awful, abominable creature known as the 'tumblrina'.

EDIT: Also, while I'm sure feminism has always had its fair share of man-blamers and harpies, there seems to have been a marked increase of them with the advent of the so-called new wave feminism. To the point where some of the old-school/dissenting feminists have been bullied out of the mainstream movement.

women are life.. they give life and are the most rational. men cause war men kill... women take the most pain and suffering and are stepped on in society its a shame.

i hope everybody tells their mother they love them

Originally posted by Shabazz916
women are life.. they give life and are the most rational. men cause war men kill... women take the most pain and suffering and are stepped on in society its a shame.

i hope everybody tells their mother they love them

What a load of crock that is.

I love my mother, but it's not because she happens to be a woman(duh).

Originally posted by -Pr-
Red Pill are *****. They don't give a **** about helping men gain equality in the areas where they're at a disadvantage. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as MRAs, imo.

MGTOW is still not really what I would call a branch of MRA either, but that's imo.

A lot of the men on reddit are deeply cynical because they've lost their kids or been through messy divorces, so there is some wiggle room where you have to take things with a pinch of salt.

the MRA section on reddit does provide a lot of good information though, if you take the time to read through it.



Aye. I mean sure, there are bad women, but there are bad men too.

IIRC AVFM is the same organization Karen Straughan comes from. She actually has a video specifically on why some MRA's come off as angrily as they do. Her videos are worth a watch, imho.

Also, a lot of people confuse pick up artist communities with MRA communities for some reason.

I don't affiliate myself with either 'side' of Feminism v.s. MRA's though, simply because it seems to cause a very 'us v.s. them' thought process, with Feminists frequently trying to discredit MRA's and MRA's angrily deriding Feminists, etc.

I think both genders deal with a different set of problems.

So what you're trying to say is, both sides are wrong?

Everyone who isn't me, disagrees with me, or agrees with only part of something I say, is objectively 100% wrong. estahuh