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I'm not referring to the actual evidence, .i.e. Lucas's comments about the Golden Age of the Jedi, the fact that Yoda and Palpatine are the most powerful to their times, yet others in their era are stronger relative to them than older eras were relative to weaker leaders, etc., but rather possible explanations for this. It does seem as though the presence of Force sensitive varies by some supernatural periods independent of demographic concerns, seeing as how it was said that the dark side was growing stronger over the course of the Banite sith, the Celestials were a thing, etc. But we can also look at more mundane reasons:

1. Training and techniques improve over time. The Jedi Order can obviously store information, so it's relatively unlikely that it would lose info faster than it would gain it. We can point to several direct examples of new inventions and innovations (.i.e. vaapad) over just the course of the movie era, so it's not difficult to imagine that those improvements compounded over 25,000 years. And it's unlikely that things hit a complete plateau, not only because of said direct counterexamples, but also looking at other things, such as technological feats, that clearly advance over the eras (you see no ships like imperial star destroyers in the time of kotor, for instance).

2. The population probably grows. Even with widespread birth control options, the richer parts of the western world still experience population growth IIRC, so I could imagine the same happening the SW galaxy, especially since many planets aren't super heavily populated. Moreover, in the thousand years since Ruusan, the Jedi probably have a much better infrastructure for finding Force sensitives, given the prosperity and lack of competition. So that means you have a higher chance of finding Force sensitives from all across the spectrum, and so you'll produce more outliers like Yoda.

3. Sidious and Plagueis in particular benefited uniquely from their midichlorian manipulation, which may have allowed them to boost their potentials past barriers earlier sith had naturally run into.

Now, there are two counterarguments commonly given; one, that lots of arcane techniques were lost, and two, that the ancient Jedi/Sith had to fight more wars. The former is partially true in the sense that sorcery and such were more common in the older days, although the newer times come with their own abilities, but I don't think that factors into overall Force mastery as much as you'd think. Take Palpatine, for instance; he was very knowledgeable on sorcery but just used more "conventional" techniques in combat anyway, as if by that level of raw power and mastery, such gimmicks were no longer as important.

The latter isn't as important as it appears either. What we're talking about - lightsaber combat and mastery of the Force - can easily be developed given the technological capabilities of the Star Wars universe without the need to actually go into combat. Likewise, modern UFC fighters are far superior in their particular area to any ancient army soldiers, and had we lived in constant warfare, we probably wouldn't have developed the resources and infrastructure to train them, ironically enough. You may say that there's less of a drive or impetus to train in the combat arts...except clearly the Order hasn't adopted that mentality, seeing as how an incredibly large portion of its training still involves just that. So excluding celestial like beings, I still see no reason to doubt the large body of evidence pointing towards the modern era being the most potent, on average, in galactic history .

It's only logical that later eras would advance themselves better than older ones, that's kind of shown in RL history.

I mean a Roman Centurion wouldn't have the same physicals or training as a Knight, they wouldn't have the same armor or weaponry because they improved on it and their techniques.

Of course the SWU is rather limited in as far as seeing advancements, but they are there.

Example being the 2-1B surigcal droid, these weren't around during the Kotor Era or TOR or even the Clone Wars(at least in Legends).

Human Replica Droids the same thing, they weren't even around until the Rebellion era.

So on and so forth.

Ah so era wars, is it?

I suppose it wouldn't matter to you that the Jedi Order was considered to have another prime as of Tales of the Jedi, with tens of thousands of members.

I suppose it wouldn't matter that it's outright stated that the dark side was more prominent back in the days of Naga Sadow and Exar Kun.

I suppose it wouldn't matter that Ossus was the greatest collection of knowledge in the history of the Jedi Order, rivalled solely by the Jedi Archives in the Jedi Temple.

I suppose it wouldn't matter that the greatest collections of Sith knowledge were lost to history, such as the Dark Holocron, the most powerful Sith holocron in history, the Trayus Academy as well as the necropolis of Malachor V. Something confirmed in regards to Exar Kun, confirmed further by Darth Plagueis.

The Old Republic era had its primes as did the Rise of the Empire era, arguing one over the other is just nonsensical.

I was coming up with causal explanations, not comparing the empirical data, but very well:

Originally posted by AncientPower
I suppose it wouldn't matter to you that the Jedi Order was considered to have another prime as of Tales of the Jedi, with tens of thousands of members.


Where was their Yoda, Windu, Anakin, or Obi Wan? They were all pathetic next to Exar Kun, while Sidious had a handful of Jedi capable of either matching or challenging him. If their average members were comparable, their most extraordinary clearly weren't.



Where?



But the Jedi Archives exist...and all Jedi can access them far more casually than they could that library.



Yet Sidious had, by Dark Empire, been suggested to have already mastered all previously known powers. And he and Plagueis demonstrated abilities that had never been seen before in the history of the sith.

But as I said, the ancients did do more visible sorcery, though they didn't compare in overall Force mastery. Nor did they ever managed to deliberately unbalance the Force itself through sheer meditation for that matter.



That's a weird golden mean fallacy; we clearly can compare them, that's the whole point of this debating community.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Ah so era wars, is it?

I suppose it wouldn't matter to you that the Jedi Order was considered to have another prime as of Tales of the Jedi, with tens of thousands of members.

I suppose it wouldn't matter that it's outright stated that the dark side was more prominent back in the days of Naga Sadow and Exar Kun.

I suppose it wouldn't matter that Ossus was the greatest collection of knowledge in the history of the Jedi Order, rivalled solely by the Jedi Archives in the Jedi Temple.

I suppose it wouldn't matter that the greatest collections of Sith knowledge were lost to history, such as the Dark Holocron, the most powerful Sith holocron in history, the Trayus Academy as well as the necropolis of Malachor V. Something confirmed in regards to Exar Kun, confirmed further by Darth Plagueis.

The Old Republic era had its primes as did the Rise of the Empire era, arguing one over the other is just nonsensical.
http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/darth_10.png

And there's this.

Anyway, Ellim, great post, but I think you're underestimating the amount of techniques lost, and how beneficial real experience is.

Most of the galaxy didn't even know Palpatine was a sith. The Galactic Empire was not nominally a sith one; Palpatine encouraged the belief that the sith were extent.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
It's only logical that later eras would advance themselves better than older ones, that's kind of shown in RL history.

But Star Wars is a fantasy not RL. A common trope in Fantasy is the notion that magic users have weakened as times go by. One need look no farther than the granddaddy of fantasy itself, LotR, to see this.

Originally posted by ares834
But Star Wars is a fantasy not RL. A common trope in Fantasy is the notion that magic users have weakened as times go by. One need look no farther than the granddaddy of fantasy itself, LotR, to see this.

And doubtlessly some SW authors think this; but then others probably think the opposite. And Lucas does employ this trope, but only in the span of the decades between the PT and the OT; as a whole he considers the prequels to be the prime of the Jedi.

But anyway, that trope is an out-of-universe consideration.

Originally posted by ares834
But Star Wars is a fantasy not RL. A common trope in Fantasy is the notion that magic users have weakened as times go by. One need look no farther than the granddaddy of fantasy itself, LotR, to see this.

Eh I was more looking at overall, not just specifically going for Force Users. But then there's stuff saying that the later era Jedi were either more powerful or just re-training as they did before, so I don't think there would be that much of a gap.

But I was looking overall, as noted, there's tech in later eras that weren't seen Clone Wars and back, yet later on there was more advancement there.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Where was their Yoda, Windu, Anakin, or Obi Wan? They were all pathetic next to Exar Kun, while Sidious had a handful of Jedi capable of either matching or challenging him. If their average members were comparable, their most extraordinary clearly weren't.

The era referenced, stretches across until the end of the Old Sith Wars, which had Jedi such as Revan, Thon, Lucien Draay, Meetra Surik, Kreia, Vodo Siosk-Baas, and the like. Considering Meetra Surik's teachings were the foundation of the Jedi Order seen in the Old Republic, we also have the likes of the Barsen-thor, the Outlander and the others. But nice attempt at a scaling fallacy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Where?

There's a great book called Darth Plagueis, you may have heard of it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But the Jedi Archives exist...and all Jedi can access them far more casually than they could that library.

What? Ossus was the center of the Jedi Order before its destruction and was the greatest of them all, Odan-Urr had spent the last thousand years building the greatest collection of knowledge. The Jedi Path makes it very obvious that much Jedi knowledge was lost in the millennia afterward. Hell even Mical has stated that the Jedi Order was at risk of losing all knowledge, permanently.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yet Sidious had, by Dark Empire, been suggested to have already mastered all previously known powers. And he and Plagueis demonstrated abilities that had never been seen before in the history of the sith.

He is rumored to be, which is pretty contradictory given his wanting of the Tedryn Holocron.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But as I said, the ancients did do more visible sorcery, though they didn't compare in overall Force mastery. Nor did they ever managed to deliberately unbalance the Force itself through sheer meditation for that matter.

Given the spirits of Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos have caused lasting disturbances in the Force, and that Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma had become great powers of the dark side in the cosmos of the Force across the galaxy. Given the Sith Triumvirate were being mentally empowered by a palpable misery of a broken and shattered Republic, something they had caused, and that there were echoes in the Force causing Jedi to outright lose their ability to touch the Force, and even die, because of the Triumvirate, and the screams of masses of dying Jedi wounding the Force itself. Given Darth Revan and Darth Malak had caused actual dark side domination in the galaxy.

Not all that impressed tbh.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's a weird golden mean fallacy; we clearly can compare them, that's the whole point of this debating community.

You're attempting to state that 'x' Force users from 'y' era are most powerful, as if that matters in a debate, it doesn't because it is nonsensical.

But then according to the Fact File, the Jedi Archives on Courscant were the unrivaled respiratory of knowledge including the old Jedi Order. Plus according to the Jedi Path, they have knowledge from both Tython and Ossus.

There are three sources contradicting that, one states the Jedi Temple is the only rival to the Great Library of Ossus, interestingly the Jedi Temple was designed on the Great Library itself. Other sources state the Great Library was the greatest collection ever.

/Shrug

Originally posted by AncientPower
The era referenced, stretches across until the end of the Old Sith Wars, which had Jedi such as Revan, Thon, Lucien Draay, Meetra Surik, Kreia, Vodo Siosk-Baas, and the like. Considering Meetra Surik's teachings were the foundation of the Jedi Order seen in the Old Republic, we also have the likes of the Barsen-thor, the Outlander and the others. But nice attempt at a scaling fallacy.


So you just used like two thousand years of content, and still couldn't really come up with enough to match a seventy or so year stretch (Yoda, Anakin, Windu, Obi Wan, Luke, Kyp, Katarn, etc.) Case in point.



Plagueis then changes his mind after his midichlorian manipulation succeeded and concludes that he's the most powerful sith on record.



Yeah, but you admitted that the Jedi Archives rival it, which make sense given that there were then several millennia of study after Odan's time, and you've yet to make a case as to why ancient jedi with less time and tech would be more productive.



Show me again the ancient sith who could tear the surfaces off of planets on their raw power, tip the balance of the Force via sheer meditation, increase their own midichlorian count, or prevent people from dying via midichlorian manipulation?



No Chosen One needed for any of those things. It's not the same thing at all.

The fact of the matter is that Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Vitiate and others were Force users to which the Jedi had no individual counter, and needed large strike teams to handle. Then comes along Sidious, canonically the most powerful Sith in history, and within a few decades of time there is one who could beat him (Luke), one who could stalemate him (Yoda), two who could defeat him under certain conditions (Mace and Anakin), and several with potential rivaling or surpassing his own (.i.e. Galen, the Skywalker line). Doesn't this seem a little suggestive of a talent disparity?



Why does this have to matter for another debate, rather than as a debate unto itself?

350 years somehow equates to two thousand, but okay.

Changes his mind after the unbalancing of the Force affords him more power?

Rivalling something doesn't equate to it.

There were Sith who could devastate numerous worlds and caused dark side domination in the cosmos by merely existing. You're also equating no other Sith ever trying it, with no other Sith could.

Given the likes of Valkorion and Nihilus were ravaging worlds and were genuine galactic threats, both of whom were causing galaxy wide effects on the Force, I'm not seeing how exactly we're facing a vast disparity.

Yeah, there's a lot of quotes about teachings being lost and what not. The Banite Sith would be one of the few exceptions.

They lost a lot too.

They also continued to build knowledge after the Gravid-Gean fiasco. And really, how many Force users could you list as more knowledgeable than just about any Banite Sith?

More than you're suggesting, I imagine.

Like?

Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Sorzus Syn, XoXaan, Remulus Dreypa, Marka Ragnos, Vitiate, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Odan-Urr, Freedon Nadd, Thon, Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, Revan, the Dread Masters, Yoda, Mother Talzin, Luke Skywalker, Darth Caedus, and Darth Krayt are all more knowledgeable than your rank-and-file Banite Sith. And there's obviously some entities and non-Sith-and-Jedi I'm missing.

https://media.giphy.com/media/XzyRSldegQhGM/giphy.gif

And now rant to me on how they're oh so knowledgeable with their Force lightning and their... well, telekinesis, and, yeah.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Sorzus Syn, XoXaan, Remulus Dreypa, Marka Ragnos, Vitiate, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Odan-Urr, Freedon Nadd, Thon, Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, Revan, the Dread Masters, Yoda, Mother Talzin, Luke Skywalker, Darth Caedus, and Darth Krayt are all more knowledgeable than your rank-and-file Banite Sith. And there's obviously some entities and non-Sith-and-Jedi I'm missing.

And now rant to me on how they're oh so knowledgeable with their Force lightning and their... well, telekinesis, and, yeah.



Based on what are Nomi Sunrider and half of those Ancient Sith more knowledgeable than the Banite Sith? Like... what? Zannah alone had Freedon Nadd's holocron, which contains everything Sadow knew (ergo, the cumulative knowledge of the Old Sith Empire up to that point) as well as Adas.

I'm obviously excluding esoteric non-Jedi/non-Sith knowledge, by the way.

The only confirmed powers the rank-and-file knew (following Gravid), were, what?

- Telekinesis
- Force Lightning
- Telepathy
- Force Sense
- Force Concealment

Throw in Darth Malak, Ulic-Qel Droma, Darth Traya, and basically every other named Sith on that list too, then.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Zannah alone had Freedon Nadd's holocron, which contains everything Sadow knew (ergo, the cumulative knowledge of the Old Sith Empire up to that point) as well as Adas.

I'm obviously excluding esoteric non-Jedi/non-Sith knowledge, by the way.
As the Bane novel made clear, not all the Sith mastered all the techniques. Some they stored away for their apprentices or other uses.

Secondly, I don't see any reason to believe said holocron survived Gravid's meddling. You're underestimating how much Gravid destroyed.

Note the Plagueis novel states that more than half of the knowledge that pre-Gravid Sith had were destroyed.

And I don't see evidence that they were rediscovered, but rather the Sith learned how to adapt from the setback.

They focused more on infiltrating the Republic, sowing corruption and chaos, mastering Force concealment, etc.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The only confirmed powers the rank-and-file knew (following Gravid), were, what?

- Telekinesis
- Force Lightning
- Telepathy
- Force Sense
- Force Concealment

Drain, Cryokinesis, Crucitorn, Convection, etc. - the stuff listed in Bane's book in BoS, which survived the Gravid fiasco. Much more as well, such as the rituals (Thought Bomb, etc.) and knowledge Palpatine gained from the Ancient Sith which allowed him to rend space and manipulate spirits, which was likely passed down the Banite line. There's also Sith Sorcery and Alchemy in numerous facets.



Malak, Traya and Qel-Droma? lmao



Which is still Force knowledge. Do you seriously believe the characters above mastered every technique?



I don't see any reason to believe that it was destroyed, either. You're speculating either way.

We do know that Naga Sadow's holocron survived, though, so my point still stands. Sorzus Syn's holocron and chronicles survived as well. The holocron of Bane survived, the Telos Holocron, etc.

In fact, you're overestimating what was destroyed, lol. The latter Banite Sith had ample knowledge of events and powers preceding Gravid, and knowledge of techniques since as well. Numerous third-person objective sources talk about how the Banite Sith cultivated their knowledge in the long term, as opposed to being a setback. You're vastly overemphasizing Gravid's work, lol.

I have no clue why you're assuming Bane, Plagueis, and Palpatine's knowledge is in any way, shape, or form indication of your post-Gravid Banite Sith.

They (the end Banites) could have obtained those works (holocrons, BoS) on their own - it didn't *all* need to be past down from generation to generation. We don't know.

You'd have to define a specific time period, and even then chances are I'd be more impressed with Revan's Dark Jedi.

Hell, I just checked out the opening to BoS, and Palpatine states that he himself regathered the entries following the fall of the Jedi.

Thus, the Banite Sith prior to him clearly didn't have the shit listed in there.

EDIT: Also, the Telos Holocron has no recorded entries of Banite Sith until Palpatine and Dooku.

Palpatine also says in a scrawl in Sorzus Syn's chronicles that the Sith have been in possession of Sorzus Syn's holocron since the time of Bane. Bane's own holocron, which contains the knowledge of Darth Revan's holocron and others, also survived. Bane's The Rule of Two survived the centuries under Sith possession as well.

So in fact, they do already have most of the knowledge there. Malgus' journal doesn't include any Force knowledge, Wild Power isn't something that any of the early Sith would've known about, and the later entries are made by Plagueis and Palpatine themselves.

If you think Revan's Dark Jedi or the Triumvirate have access to more knowledge than that, you might be able to take home the Darwin's Award for Excellence.

Originally posted by ares834
But Star Wars is a fantasy not RL. A common trope in Fantasy is the notion that magic users have weakened as times go by. One need look no farther than the granddaddy of fantasy itself, LotR, to see this.

Yup, look at X Men, Underworld, etc. Then again if you want to compare to real world, look no further than sports where all the debates rage on. It's generally understood that MJ is the best player of all time. You give him today's rules and physiological breakthroughs and he dominates.

In Tennis, there's more of a debate but Borg is considered the best of all time. Same argument.

In soccer, Pele is considered the best of all time. And so on and so on. The argument doesn't have a leg to stand on when you're discussing force users, only technological developments, which the GE has and why they're numero uno as far as an army/navy/military is concerned.

However, the force users were prevalent in a different era and therefore had access to more material. The force users of the current era are a minority compared to the Old Republic and lack the knowledge of not only current techniques, but the thousands of lost ones. So if anything, you'll go back to the GAOTS Of even the Jedi Exiles if you want to see the most powerful of the most powerful. Granted in future generations, the most powerful force users developed new techniques but much more were lost. So you're wrong, as usual. But guys like Bane/Palpatine/Plagueis obviously don't fit into the status quo.


Your argument only makes sense if you assume everyone pours their entire information into these writings/holocrons (they don't), which they wouldn't do unless they're open to sharing their knowledge and power (most aren't). Syn's holocron could and writings could have contained a fraction of her knowledge. We know Revan's holocron definitely didn't include everything. I would concede that Nadd's holocron appeared to contain enough information for Bane to have studied it for a decade, but he destroyed it soon after.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse


Your argument only makes sense if you assume everyone pours their entire information into these writings/holocrons (they don't), which they wouldn't do unless they're open to sharing their knowledge and power (most aren't). Syn's holocron could and writings could have contained a fraction of her knowledge. We know Revan's holocron definitely didn't include everything. I would concede that Nadd's holocron appeared to contain enough information for Bane to have studied it for a decade, but he destroyed it soon after.

The holocron's simulacrum is essentially you at the time you made it, lol. The knowledge imparted is the same.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The holocron's simulacrum is essentially you at the time you made it, lol. The knowledge imparted is the same.

Thank you for explaining to me the dynamics of a holocron, I must have missed the obvious the last, you know, 15+ years of reading star wars material. There's no evidence someone pours everything into a holocron, or even a fraction. So while certain holocrons like Nadd's would be a point in your favor since it had a trove of information, it appears others are like Revan's with a few techniques and words of wisdom.

Revan's Holocron had a few techniques? Bane mused that it was vastly greater than the entire Sith archives on Korriban, lmfao. You're talking out of your ass.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Revan's Holocron had a few techniques? Bane mused that it was vastly greater than the entire Sith archives on Korriban, lmfao. You're talking out of your ass.

Yea, care to tell me what the archives were worth on Korriban? Nothing. Bane was seeking teaching and techniques. From reading PoD, it's clear the current texts at the academy are worth less than nothing. There's no need to get get mad at me for being wrong.

Also, Bane was pretty clear on what he thought was vastly greater than the Academy's texts and that was Revan's knowledge. Must have missed that one

Checkmate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Checkmate.



Checkmate indeed. Thanks for proving my point

You said that it might contain only a fraction of her knowledge. The quote above proves that everything the creator knows goes into it, which would include all of her knowledge. Unless, of course, Sorzus knows things that aren't of the ways of the dark side?

Come try that again.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You said that it might contain only a fraction of her knowledge. The quote above proves that everything the creator knows goes into it, which would include all of her knowledge. Unless, of course, Sorzus knows things that aren't of the ways of the dark side?

Come try that again.



I'm not sure you're keeping track of who you're talking about. And no, the quote only proves that Bane poured all his knowledge into it, continuing his sith line. For every Bane holocron, you'll get many more Darth Vectivus' holocrons that are meaningless.

So what you're essentially saying is, the holocrons that ARE found (lets generously say 1% of all known and unknown force users throughout history) may or may NOT contain incredibly useful information? Which essentially proves the other 99% of information/techniques are lost. Another checkmate, lets move on.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I'm not sure you're keeping track of who you're talking about. And no, the quote only proves that Bane poured all his knowledge into it, continuing his sith line. For every Bane holocron, you'll get many more Darth Vectivus' holocrons that are meaningless.

So what you're essentially saying is, the holocrons that ARE found (lets generously say 1% of all known and unknown force users throughout history) may or may NOT contain incredibly useful information? Which essentially proves the other 99% of information/techniques are lost. Another checkmate, lets move on.

Prove that it's exclusive solely to Bane. Prove to me that any Sith has ever withheld knowledge from their holocron. Until then, you're asking me to indulge in your fan-fiction, which I'll have to refuse.

Vectivus' Holocron was useless to the One Sith because they already knew everything in it, bar the Force Phantom technique. That doesn't mean that he has nothing else in there. You're reaching harder than Revan did to invoke the nexus of Malachor V, lol.

I don't have to. We've seen Darth Vectivus' holocron on business dealings, Revan's holocron touting some techniques and his philosophy, and another holocron detailing the creation of sith armor. The burden of proof is on you I'm afraid. And again, even if you ARE correct:




Now you're just desperately rationalizing in the face of defeat. Concede and move on.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I don't have to. We've seen Darth Vectivus' holocron on business dealings, Revan's holocron touting some techniques and his philosophy, and another holocron detailing the creation of sith armor. The burden of proof is on you I'm afraid. And again, even if you ARE correct:

Repeating your fan-fiction ad nauseam doesn't prove anything.

Revan's holocron taught Bane a vast number of rituals, Drain Life, Detoxify Poison, and more. There's no evidence that these Holocrons or any others were intentionally deprived of the summative knowledge of their creators, especially when in Bane's case, well, that wasn't the case.

But as you've accused me in another thread:

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
You're not big on providing evidence are you?

I'd ask you the same here.



That'd sound a lot more convincing if you weren't doing just that, lmfao. But you do have a history of accusing others of exactly what you're doing, so I'm going to assume that you're trolling and deliberately wasting my time.

That's nice. You repeat what I just said to you. I'll take that as a concession.

I'm still waiting for the evidence for that statistic, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm still waiting for the evidence for that statistic, lol.

Estimate the amount of sith that are known. Then conservatively double that to include those unknown. Divide that number by the amount of holocrons found over time. Then you get your statistic, and that's me giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming every sith lord has given everything he knows to his holocrons, that's actually relevant to power (which I've already disproven).

Now take that small number, compare it to the thousands of years and known/unknown sith that did NOT create a holocron or write anything to pass down, and you'd be hilariously wrong.. Again.

/Thread

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Estimate the amount of sith that are known. Then conservatively double that to include those unknown. Divide that number by the amount of holocrons found over time. Then you get your statistic, and that's me giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming every sith lord has given everything he knows to his holocrons, that's actually relevant to power (which I've already disproven).

You never disproved anything about teachings being relevant to power or not. The text I quoted claims specifically that Bane transcribed everything he knew - which would include things related to power as well.



The fact that the vast majority of Sith don't record their teachings doesn't preclude the few individuals that do from transcribing everything they know down, lol.

Great, and before that I said there were some sith lords that did that. And then I gave you MORE examples of those that didn't, or had nothing of value to add. Thereby proving my point.


And since this wasn't argued, I'm glad we're on the same page

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Great, and before that I said there were some sith lords that did that. And then I gave you MORE examples of those that didn't, or had nothing of value to add. Thereby proving my point.

Prove that Vectivus or Revan didn't. The fact that the One Sith found Vectivus' holocron largely useless means only that they're already aware of the most of the contents, not that the contents themselves are useless, as I've already said.



Then let's progress.

The fact that you're asking me to prove a negative to you is essentially a concession. You'd have to prove they did before I have to prove they didn't. Since Vectivus' holocron contained the force phantom technique and business ethics, that's a point in my favor.

We were told explicitly what was in the holocron. If you want to argue there were useful contents, the onus is on you to prove it. But again, you are getting entirely sidetracked here.

Even if I grant you that the few force users that have holocrons do pour everything into their holocrons (they don't), the other 99% of the known and unknown force users throughout history don't. Therefore techniques lost infinitely exceed those that are passed down or discovered, which was the point.. NOW we can move on.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The fact that you're asking me to prove a negative to you is essentially a concession. You'd have to prove they did before I have to prove they didn't. Since Vectivus' holocron contained the force phantom technique and business ethics, that's a point in my favor.

Then let me rephrase my question; prove that Revan and Vectivus omitted knowledge from their holocron, since I believe the root cause of our disagreement was that Sorzus Syn may have intentionally withheld such knowledge - the burden of which, I might add, is still on you to prove.

The fact that it contained business ethics or Force Phantoms proves your point how? Force Phantoms were unprecedented, and business ethics weren't things you'd find in any Sith manuscript... so it's unprecedented as well.



Quote me on where the entirety of the Holocron's contents were revealed.



The problem being that almost all of these non-recorders are pretty useless creeps who study from recorded texts to begin with. I mean, can you even name any Sith worth his salt who didn't record his teachings in one way or another, or that another Sith didn't have those teachings available in their recordings?

You're just rephrasing the negative. There's no proof they put everything into their holocrons. Sith do not share power so they are very careful what they put into their holocrons. Bane is an exception and to a lesser extent Revan.


I don't need to. If the sith themselves consider a holocron to be worthless, then it is indeed worthless. It doesn't matter if business practices are "unprecedented", but that's not the topic of this thread is it? You're to give reasons why modern era characters are more powerful and the only way that's possible is if the characters gain way more powers than are lost (with the exception of the ability to create their own). I've given you an ironclad argument where even in the best case scenario for you, infinitely more techniques are lost than are found and/or discovered.

Originally posted by AncientPower
350 years somehow equates to two thousand, but okay.


Yeah because the rest of those 1650 turn up nothing, and you know it.

Heck, bring on the last 25,000 years of the Jedi Order, and you can't come up with a top six list matching Luke/Yoda/Anakin/Mace/Galen/Kyp. That's like seventy years.



Or literally makes him more powerful via manipulating his own midichlorians.



No, but it suggests that we consider which one is superior; and the Jedi Archives are just more likely to have more information, given its longer stretch of time and whatnot.



You don't think any other sith would've figured out how to bust planets from across the galaxy if they could?



Nihilus was able to drain individuals on a planet, and Valkorion could sort of emulate a lite storm via prep and a nexus, but none could tear the surfaces off of worlds from across the galaxy.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Palpatine also says in a scrawl in Sorzus Syn's chronicles that the Sith have been in possession of Sorzus Syn's holocron since the time of Bane. Bane's own holocron, which contains the knowledge of Darth Revan's holocron and others, also survived. Bane's The Rule of Two survived the centuries under Sith possession as well.

Quote? On page 6, he states he didn't get Sorzus Syn's entry until after Yoda's exile and Windu's death.

Also, Quinlan Vos had Bane's entry in the BotS in his possession prior to his tutelage under Dooku, so it's clear Palpatine didn't have it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote? On page 6, he states he didn't get Sorzus Syn's entry until after Yoda's exile and Windu's death.

I can confirm that he speaks truth. Palpatine was in possession of the Syn holocron before he found Syn's journal.

And the Syn Holocron possessed what, exactly? An undefined and unlisted set of magic and alchemy teachings?

I'd frankly be more impressed if he had her entry. So yeah, Dark Jedi #152 on the Star Forge is still in the lead.

Also note: "The holocron had the ability to block out areas of knowledge that were beyond the user's ability."

So there's really no telling how much Bane even knew concerning Revan and co.'s knowledge.

The Jedi didn't have any Sith holocrons to my knowledge, they were all fakes.

They clearly had some, since Dooku was lured to one early in his apprenticeship as a Jedi.

And they also, obviously, had dozens of Sith entries and scrolls, as the Book of the Sith made clear.

After the Clone Wars Vader had Sidious retrieve all the remaining holocrons from the Jedi Temple, all of which were in fact forgeries. The would of course exclude the one stolen by Dooku prior to that happening, but is there any evidence to suggest that wasn't also a fake?

None of this really helps the argument of "modern=more powerful". It's pretty obvious that in the sw universe, the reverse is true as has been proven. The majority of force techniques used throughout the mythos all came from the same time period. Guys like Palpatine/Bane/Plagueis where in the rarified air of force users that could potentially create their own techniques. Technology on the other hand has improved over time.

Quote they were all forgeries? And, again, a lot of the entries, scrolls, books, etc. were legitimate. Holocrons aren't the only way to store knowledge, especially for the Sith.

And yes, it's confirmed to be a true Sith Holocron in Legacy of the Jedi. Here's one quote of many:

Lorian turned back to him. "Yes, Dooku, I did access the Sith Holocron. I was curious. And what I saw chilled my blood and haunted my days for a long time. It haunts me still. And yet it is comforting somehow. Once you've seen true evil, you can be sure that you will never be able to fall that low."

Dooku also made note of its dark side nexus, etc.

(Post on the prior page)

Also, to reinforce what AP was saying:

http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/wow10.png

That library, the sith library on Krayis II, the pillaging of the sith worlds following the GSW, etc. So much more knowledge was lost than was "created", it's not even a question.

Plus Malachor V, which was basically the storehouse of knowledge for the original Sith Empire, was destroyed in the Mandalorian Wars.

Whatever was left could be found on Korriban, which was all but gone when Darth Bane came around.

Forgot about the libraries at Malachor V. The evidence is overwhelming.

So far, the confirmed holocrons in the possession of the post-Gravid Banite Sith are:

- Sorzus Syn's Holocron (contents unknown)
- ...

And then some allege Darth Bane's Holocron, but have yet to show a source.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote they were all forgeries? And, again, a lot of the entries, scrolls, books, etc. were legitimate. Holocrons aren't the only way to store knowledge, especially for the Sith.

And yes, it's confirmed to be a true Sith Holocron in Legacy of the Jedi. Here's one quote of many:

Lorian turned back to him. "Yes, Dooku, I did access the Sith Holocron. I was curious. And what I saw chilled my blood and haunted my days for a long time. It haunts me still. And yet it is comforting somehow. Once you've seen true evil, you can be sure that you will never be able to fall that low."

Dooku also made note of its dark side nexus, etc. I'm only talking about Holocrons, as for the source:And considering they were "clever forgeries" i.e. designed to appear like the real thing, and considering that Jedi can sense the dark side and presumably access these devices, we'd assume they'd be indistinguishable in those regards, good enough to fool even Master Yoda.

But more importantly the Banite Sith had all the real ones in their possession.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But more importantly the Banite Sith had all the real ones in their possession.
Please enlighten on what the contents of a few (so small in number that they could fit on a pedestal) Sith holocrons contained, then?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Plus Malachor V, which was basically the storehouse of knowledge for the original Sith Empire, was destroyed in the Mandalorian Wars.

Whatever was left could be found on Korriban, which was all but gone when Darth Bane came around. The storehouse? On what basis?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Please enlighten on what the contents of a few (so small in number that they could fit on a pedestal) Sith holocrons contained, then? Information, I would imagine.

http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/sith_h10.png

Based on the above, I'm inclined to believe the Jedi then destroyed the real ones (as made clear in Battlefront II, where the Jedi began destroying the library and you had to prevent them from destroying everything, i.e. presumably what was on the pedestal). So yeah, no.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The storehouse? On what basis?
A storehouse of information that stretches across an entire planet is obviously the storehouse. Nothing even compares.

The Ancient Sith were the originators of whatever knowledge Bane and his Sith could get their hands on. Yet, through various events in the history of the Galaxy, a tremendous amount of said knowledge was lost and destroyed. If this isn't apparent enough for you, here are those holy scriptures reiterating what I just said:

"Locked within the recesses of that Sith Holocron - the only Sith Holocron, as far as anybody knows - are the forgotten histories and lore of the Sith, dating back a hundred thousand years and more"

- Odan-Urr on the Sith Holocron he discovered on the abandoned Sith ship during the Great Hyperspace War, The Essential Guide to the Force

"King Adas's holocron was stolen during the Jedi Purge, and it seems the remaining holocrons were destroyed before Palpatine or his agents could claim them"

- Tionne Solusar, The Essential Guide through the Force

"According to records, the Sith Lord might have gained greated knowledge of their subjects from an ancient Sith library temple on Krayiss II. Apparently, this library housed Holocrons and artifacts about the Sith species, but ruins on Krayiss II have yet to be identified as a library and its collections may have long turned to dust"

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

"Perhabs the greatest loss during that period was Veeshas Tuwan an ancient Sith library on the Sith world Arkania."

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force



And of course we have Sidious hating the Jedi for laying waste to so many Sith artifacts while pointing out that Vaa doesn't...

"mention the destruction of the planet Malachor V and its Sith academy"

- Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force

Clearly the ancient Sith were mor knowledgable than the modern era's and not the other way round.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/17/73/92/12/sith_h10.png

Based on the above, I'm inclined to believe the Jedi then destroyed the real ones (as made clear in Battlefront II, where the Jedi began destroying the library and you had to prevent them from destroying everything, i.e. presumably what was on the pedestal). So yeah, no. That's one reading, an alternative reading based on the fact that the only holocrons being in the Jedi's possession is false, is that this is written from the fallible perspective of said Order, who could very well have merely been convinced their holocrons were the real deal. And we only see them destroying their own Archives, not any Sith knowledge.Originally posted by DarthAnt66
A storehouse of information that stretches across an entire planet is obviously the storehouse. Nothing even compares. You can't possibly claim that when you don't know how large the other storehouses were.

On the other hand what does this mean for the resurgent Sith Empire? Malachor is described as one of the many Sith strongholds abandoned at the end of the Great Hyperspace War, which includes Korriban, and as Ziggy pointed out the Jedi seemingly laid waste or otherwise raided what the left behind. So presumably there accumulated Sith knowledge would be just as lacking.

There's no contradictions. The Sith Holocrons in the Jedi possession were forgeries according to Sidious, but they still were Sith Holocrons.

Wait, none of the Jedi were ever allowed to actually check the holocrons?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There's no contradictions. The Sith Holocrons in the Jedi possession were forgeries according to Sidious, but they still were Sith Holocrons. That's true tbh, its even implied they possessed actual Sith knowledge.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The Ancient Sith were the originators of whatever knowledge Bane and his Sith could get their hands on. Yet, through various events in the history of the Galaxy, a tremendous amount of said knowledge was lost and destroyed. If this isn't apparent enough for you, here are those holy scriptures reiterating what I just said:

"Locked within the recesses of that Sith Holocron - the only Sith Holocron, as far as anybody knows - are the forgotten histories and lore of the Sith, dating back a hundred thousand years and more"

- Odan-Urr on the Sith Holocron he discovered on the abandoned Sith ship during the Great Hyperspace War, The Essential Guide to the Force

"King Adas's holocron was stolen during the Jedi Purge, and it seems the remaining holocrons were destroyed before Palpatine or his agents could claim them"

- Tionne Solusar, The Essential Guide through the Force

"According to records, the Sith Lord might have gained greated knowledge of their subjects from an ancient Sith library temple on Krayiss II. Apparently, this library housed Holocrons and artifacts about the Sith species, but ruins on Krayiss II have yet to be identified as a library and its collections may have long turned to dust"

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

"Perhabs the greatest loss during that period was Veeshas Tuwan an ancient Sith library on the Sith world Arkania."

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force



And of course we have Sidious hating the Jedi for laying waste to so many Sith artifacts while pointing out that Vaa doesn't...

"mention the destruction of the planet Malachor V and its Sith academy"

- Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force

Clearly the ancient Sith were mor knowledgable than the modern era's and not the other way round.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah because the rest of those 1650 turn up nothing, and you know it.

Heck, bring on the last 25,000 years of the Jedi Order, and you can't come up with a top six list matching Luke/Yoda/Anakin/Mace/Galen/Kyp. That's like seventy years.



Or literally makes him more powerful via manipulating his own midichlorians.



No, but it suggests that we consider which one is superior; and the Jedi Archives are just more likely to have more information, given its longer stretch of time and whatnot.



You don't think any other sith would've figured out how to bust planets from across the galaxy if they could?



Nihilus was able to drain individuals on a planet, and Valkorion could sort of emulate a lite storm via prep and a nexus, but none could tear the surfaces off of worlds from across the galaxy.

Yes because let's just pretend that Revan, Ulic Qel-Droma, Exar Kun, Vandar, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Odan-Urr, Meetra Surik, Outlander, Barsen'thor, Satele Shan, Lucien Draay, Thon, Aryn Leneer, Wyellett, Tol-Braga, Nomi Sunrider and Jaric Kaedan aren't imptessive at all.

He does that after the shift, not prior to it.

Given the Jedi Archives have been seriously maintained since the Ruusan Reformations, I don't understand how 1,000 years > 1,000 years. Better yet, Odan-Urr had an entire 'chamber of antiquities', which was within the Great Library itself. This chamber was filled with Ancient Sith and Jedi artifacts and holocrons, so much that it had more knowledge than Exar Kun could ever possibly need.

Why are you pretending the Force Storm technique isn't originated by the ancient Sith and even documented by the Jedi in the Jedi Path?

Nihilus completely wrecked the surface of Katarr, and presumaboy the numerous other planets he destroyed, Valkorion does the same to Ziost. Neither of them are indicated to require any kind of rituals either.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes because let's just pretend that Revan, Ulic Qel-Droma, Exar Kun, Vandar, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Odan-Urr, Meetra Surik, Outlander, Barsen'thor, Satele Shan, Lucien Draay, Thon, Aryn Leneer, Wyellett, Tol-Braga, Nomi Sunrider and Jaric Kaedan aren't imptessive at all.


That group is less impressive than Luke/Yoda/Anakin/Mace/Kyp/Obi Wan/Jacen/Dooku/Kyle, and you're comparing the whole of previous galactic history to just seventy or so years!



What, says that the ancient sith were stronger? No, he eventually says the opposite...



Because electronic archives are easier to maintain than libraries, and they draw upon some of the knowledge of Odan's time plus the knowledge afterwards, whereas Odan can draw upon his own time, but nothing from the future.



It may have been originated earlier, but never to the scale of Palpatine's.



He used orbital bombardment, and besides, it wasn't to nearly the same degree or speed as Palpatine's storms, nor could he perform it from across the galaxy.



Valkorion may or may not have needed a ritual, but he did need a nexus, the energy of billions of inhabitants, and prep time.

Regardless, the only case you can make for the ancients is that they were better sorcerers; they were definitely weaker in generic mastery and saber ability.

The misinformation is astounding.

That is just 350-400 years. How exactly is that less impressive? They more than double them and they're all really powerful, if not extremely powerful.



So the dark side was more prominent in the ancient Sith era, that or Exar Kun and Naga Sadow were more powerful. Which is interesting in and of itself, because Plagueis is clearly unaware of the ability of ancient Sith to remain after death as spirits, he even dismisses the possibility of ancient Sith spirits existing. But nah, Banite Sith know everything, clearly. Which leads to another correction:



Which is a very interesting statement:



Isn't it?

Very strange orbital bombardment:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/fc/Katarrdevastation.jpg



All the inhabitants of Ziost afforded him, was the replenishment of his power.

Regarding his ability to ruin planets:



I'd also note his attack on Ziost didn't just effect Ziost alone:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/5126504-before.png

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/5126506-after.png

More good points

The pt/ot era doesn't compare in terms of troves and troves of force abilities and knowledge. It's not even close. Furthermore, insinuating that valky needed a nexus and billions of inhabitants begs proof.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That is just 350-400 years. How exactly is that less impressive? They more than double them and they're all really powerful, if not extremely powerful.


So you think the they could take the same number of top combatants from the PT/OT/NJO era? Seriously? With Luke, Yoda, Galen, Mace, Anakin, etc?

Again, I'm drawing from like a sixth of the time.



Plagueis didn't believe in the sith spirits, but Sidious did and surpassed all but Vitiate in his ability to cheat death.

Regardless, Plagueis speculated that the dark side was more prominent in the old days, but then changed his mind. Why do you keep ignoring that part?



The backcover blurb reinforces Plagueis's statement to cover all sith in history.



Didn't you have this discussion before, where a quote was brought up that explicitly mentions bombardment?



Pure speculation. But even if that were true, it still didn't match Force storms in raw power.

I can quote you half-a-dozen quotes confirming Nihilus can consume worlds, and like four specifically concerning Katarr.

Whatever quote you're referring to, which I don't even know, is a clear inconsistency next to overwhelming evidence of the contrary.

Luke doesn't count among the 'golden age of the Jedi Order'. Given the only one left out of that bunch that might be Revan's superior is Yoda, no I'm not inclined to suggest a 'vast disparity' exists between eras.

Sidious eventually did, when they almost killed him. But that renders the argument of the Banite Sith besides Sidious being the most knowledgable as hogwash. Sidious knowing everything in spite of him stating himself that there's much he'd like to recover, is sheer folly.

Sidious is Valkorion's equal as of Dark Empire, but given Yoda was barely stalemating ROTS Sidious, who isn't nearly as powerful as he is in Dark Empire, then your PT Jedi > all argument is null.

He only changed his mind on the condition that any Sith preceding him would have to have died with their secrets to be his equal, which tears the statement apart.

Excuse me if I don't take Darth Plagueis' blurb as definitive when others have claims such as Bane > all. Stick to Sheev's most powerful wank and we might get somewhere.

Do you even know which quote you're referring to? it is stated that Nihilus 'blasts' the planet, this is commonly taken as a means to lowball his achievements, even though 'blast' is hardly definitive at all.

You know what is funny? The Ravager never even appears to have weapons in the Second Battle of Telos IV. Nihilus' power can easily 'blast' the planet, given the surface of the planet is completely wrecked. The actual visual depiction, as I've provided, clearly doesn't depict capital ship bombardment at all.

>Canonically stated in a codex entry.
>'speculation'

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote? On page 6, he states he didn't get Sorzus Syn's entry until after Yoda's exile and Windu's death.

I didn't say Syn's entry. The very post of mine that you quoted mentioned Syn's holocron, which Sidious confirms the Sith had access to since the time of Darth Bane.



Where's this stated? I recall Quinlan getting the entry whilst under Dooku's tutelage, which is why no other Jedi scribbles in that section.

I addressed that already.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So far, the confirmed holocrons in the possession of the post-Gravid Banite Sith are:

- Sorzus Syn's Holocron (contents unknown)
- ...

And then some allege Darth Bane's Holocron, but have yet to show a source.

---

His entries make clear he's still a Jedi.

View pages 73, 77, 79, 83, 84.

By the way he acts, still early Clone Wars.

EDIT: He wouldn't be writing in the book that the Jedi should kill Dooku if it's Dooku's book and he let Vos read it, lmfao.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That group is less impressive than Luke/Yoda/Anakin/Mace/Kyp/Obi Wan/Jacen/Dooku/Kyle, and you're comparing the whole of previous galactic history to just seventy or so years!

Said 70 years is more explored than the rest of the material put together. Also a 3rd of that list is made up of the Skywalker bloodline, which is obviously an exceptional case.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I can quote you half-a-dozen quotes confirming Nihilus can consume worlds, and like four specifically concerning Katarr.

Whatever quote you're referring to, which I don't even know, is a clear inconsistency next to overwhelming evidence of the contrary.

I think he's talking about the one that says N "blasted them into ruins". Which doesn't specify bombardment and has been debunked as such many times already. Unseen, Unheard shows us it was a force attack.

For some reason, this point is never addressed.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the other hand what does this mean for the resurgent Sith Empire? Malachor is described as one of the many Sith strongholds abandoned at the end of the Great Hyperspace War, which includes Korriban, and as Ziggy pointed out the Jedi seemingly laid waste or otherwise raided what the left behind. So presumably there accumulated Sith knowledge would be just as lacking. Neither has this, interestingly. mmm

And frankly this goes for the Jedi too, they lost the Temple on Ossus, and they suffered near extermination at the hands of the Triumvirate, forcing Meetra to rebuild the Order from the ground up. In that respect I can't see how the TOR era could possibly be considered to be in possession of more Force knowledge, when realistically it should possess some of the least.

Well, I mean, it's not as if Darth Revan's holocron doesn't include the teachings from Malachor V and Korriban that he studied, right?

But TOR Sith built their knowledge largely off experimentation, since they fled after the Korriban genocide from the Republic and stayed in exile for millennia. At most, they would have discovered some teachings left behind by the Sith earlier on Dromund Kaas.

By the time they came back to Korriban, however, there was only a destroyed world with its tombs being further looted over the millennia. The game is even set in the midst of excavation efforts. TOR era doesn't look to be much more convincing, lol.

To address Neph's point though 1. the Skywalker bloodline was created to as a response to the growing power of the Sith, and 2. the TOR era is explored sufficiently enough to account for the best of each respective period, and yet they remain holistically inferior.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Neither has this, interestingly. mmm

And frankly this goes for the Jedi too, they lost the Temple on Ossus, and they suffered near extermination at the hands of the Triumvirate, forcing Meetra to rebuild the Order from the ground up. In that respect I can't see how the TOR era could possibly be considered to be in possession of more Force knowledge, when realistically it should possess some of the least.

But isn't the argument that force users got more powerful over time while we are arguing that that wasn't possible considering that inifnitely more force knowledge was lost than found or created?


This is an opinion.. To you it may look holistically inferior, but to me it's anything but. I'll grant you the fact that some of the most powerful force users came about the time after Bane's eradication of the sith, but you have equally powerful characters in the TOR era.. If you want to argue quality>quantity, that's pretty much all you have and I'll concede that point.

.

Eh just to note AP, you do see the Ravager firing as the Exile goes to board the ship.

https://youtu.be/0fAqt3xtlWw?t=98

Can I have a quote confirming that holocrons have all the knowledge of their creators (as the time of its creation)?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Can I have a quote confirming that holocrons have all the knowledge of their creators (as the time of its creation)? no such proof exists and I'm not sure it will help the OP argument anyways. We've seen maybe two holocrons that seem to possess the creator's full spectrum of knowledge and that's bane and nadd. I only use nadd because it took bane a decade to study the holocron.

And yet people expect Bane to have all the knowledge within Revan's holocron, which was flawed (the crystal was weak and it had no markings - note the markings were essential for the holocron's "appearance, knowledge, and cognitive processes" and only studied for "a few short weeks?"



Also I'm not convinced that a lone holocron would contain all of Revan's knowledge. Holocrons are generally created with a specific purpose ("A Holocron could contain ancient rituals of devastating power, or the keys to unlocking the magics of ancient Sith sorcerers, or even avatars that simulated the personality of the Holocron's original creator.", and as made clear by Revan's, the emphasis was philosophy with a hint of Sith sorcery.

First someone would have to prove revan's holocron contained all of its teachings which would be hard considering revan stressed the rule of two and not sharing power. Then we have to consider that bane learned all that he could for a few weeks max? At that point it becomes blatantly obvious.

up

Very interesting points friend.

There's no use in opposing this. The modern era is simply better in the practical application of knowledge and training for combat. In fact, they are soooo much better than previous generations in the field, that the two wisest and most powerful masters, Yoda and Mace Windu, sent Anakin to find the long lost holocron of an ancient Jedi Knight just so he could learn an "arcane" technique.

https://youtu.be/HYEc8C_1gTc?t=43s

That technique of course was how to resist Force drain.

In other words Yoda and Mace Windu in the same room couldn't tell Anakin how to resist drain, but Ulic Qel Droma's phantom could.

At least we know how Nhillus fares against the two now.

Do the PT Brigade believe themselves to be edgy supporting the status quo regurgitating the same arguments from years ago?

Cringe.

Good effort and good analysis Member The Ellimist. I approve.

Originally posted by An_Sock
Very interesting points friend.

There's no use in opposing this. The modern era is simply better in the practical application of knowledge and training for combat. In fact, they are soooo much better than previous generations in the field, that the two wisest and most powerful masters, Yoda and Mace Windu, sent Anakin to find the long lost holocron of an ancient Jedi Knight just so he could learn an "arcane" technique.

That technique of course was how to resist Force drain.

In other words Yoda and Mace Windu in the same room couldn't tell Anakin how to resist drain, but Ulic Qel Droma's phantom could.

At least we know how Nhillus fares against the two now.

Good points. Valkorion fans do nothing but troll these days. I am glad there are intelligent people like you who understand the proper ground realities of the mythos and acknowledge how eras advance over time. This is only logical.

Holy ****

/thread.

And yet, padawans and generic Jedi in PT era can do techniques that the Council Masters of the ToTJ era classified as Sith powers and weren't even aware of them until recently, "or" they knew but simply were "incapable" of doing it. Jedi Masters in the PT era are using Force Drain and force illusions pretty casually, and both were seen as forbidden "arcane" Sith powers back in the day.

Lmfao.

(The reverse is also true)

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
And yet, padawans and generic Jedi in PT era can do techniques that the Council Masters of the ToTJ era classified as Sith powers and weren't even aware of them until recently, "or" they knew but simply were "incapable" of doing it. Jedi Masters in the PT era are using Force Drain and force illusions pretty casually, and both were seen as forbidden "arcane" Sith powers back in the day.

Lmfao.

Post your evidence in full friend.

New does not equal better, superior, etc

Just as old does not mean worse, inferior, etc

The idea that new generations>old generations is stupid

A lot of Sith-Jedi knowledge was lost over time. That's why only Ulic-Qel-Droma was the only one who knew the Force drain immunity.

Both eras had their ups and downs.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
New does not equal better, superior, etc

Just as old does not mean worse, inferior, etc

The idea that new generations>old generations is stupid

A lot of Sith-Jedi knowledge was lost over time. That's why only Ulic-Qel-Droma was the only one who knew the Force drain immunity.

Both eras had their ups and downs.

You didn't exactly respond to anything lol.

Originally posted by An_Sock
Post your evidence in full friend.

It's pretty funny as to how you keep getting banned and keep coming back. May I inquire as to why you are banned?

As for the evidence, Electronic Manipulation was classified as a Sith power by the ToTJ compendium, which states that Jedi of the era are simply incapable of using it without a rage amplification. We know that Obi Wan has done it countless times, Qui Gon has done it, and perhaps even a padawan Obi Wan has done it.

Memory wipe( also called Memory Rub) is another power which allows a force user to enter into the deepest recesses of a person's brain, and selectively eliminate certain memories. Again, classified as a Sith power in the ToTJ compendium, and to reiterate, the existence of these powers were only just coming to the knowledge of the Jedi Council of the era, as is stated in the compendium.



Obi Wan knew of this as a padawan.

As for Force Illusions, we know that Yarael Poof is a master of those, having conjured illusions Naga Sadow style to confuse and disorient entire armies. Again, illusions were classified as a Sith discipline( a product of Sith sorcery) by the Jedi Council.

Here is Obi Wan using Force Drain and Illusions simultaneously:



Obi Wan here basically represents the Jedi knowledge of the era, and Drain isn't made out to be anything noteworthy. To put into perspective, the Jedi of ToTJ were unaware that you could even drain sentient beings.

This ability was used in the Old Republic times too. Just because it was classified as a 'dark side' power; that doesn't mean it wasn't used by some Jedi.




Didn't Revan do it on the Sith Emperor? Didn't Nadd know about it?

Just because they didn't use it; that doesn't meant it wasn't passed from generation to generation. It's a familiar theme in stories that you are learned certain abilities that you are not allowed to use them. Even Qui-Gonn says that to Obi-Wan.









You forget that Obi-Wan simultaneously did it with Luke's assistance. And from the context I get in fact that he created an illusion with Luke's aid(his Force signature) and that action drained the boy; it exhausted him; not that it drained him literally. I think you just take the 'drain' part literally when clearly it isn't the case.




Or maybe they didn't want to do it? Think about it.
Also, Ulic-Qel-Droma knew the Force drain immunity. So, not all the knowledge was passed over to the new generations.

As aforementioned, Obi-Wan didn't use Force drain in that particular scene. It's just a line taken literally.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You didn't exactly respond to anything lol.

And what exactly should I say?

Do you expect from me a old>new argument?

Each era had their abilities, knowledge, akin to their times and their 'warriors'

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
As for the evidence, Electronic Manipulation was classified as a Sith power by the ToTJ compendium, which states that Jedi of the era are simply incapable of using it without a rage amplification. We know that Obi Wan has done it countless times, Qui Gon has done it, and perhaps even a padawan Obi Wan has done it.


Isn't Arca Jeth the first person who used it though?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
This ability was used in the Old Republic times too. Just because it was classified as a 'dark side' power; that doesn't mean it wasn't used by some Jedi.




Didn't Revan do it on the Sith Emperor? Didn't Nadd know about it?

Just because they didn't use it; that doesn't meant it wasn't passed from generation to generation. It's a familiar theme in stories that you are learned certain abilities that you are not allowed to use them. Even Qui-Gonn says that to Obi-Wan.









You forget that Obi-Wan simultaneously did it with Luke's assistance. And from the context I get in fact that he created an illusion with Luke's aid(his Force signature) and that action drained the boy; it exhausted him; not that it drained him literally. I think you just take the 'drain' part literally when clearly it isn't the case.




Or maybe they didn't want to do it? Think about it.
Also, Ulic-Qel-Droma knew the Force drain immunity. So, not all the knowledge was passed over to the new generations.

As aforementioned, Obi-Wan didn't use Force drain in that particular scene. It's just a line taken literally.

No offense, but are you kidding me?

It was explicitly stated that the Jedi couldn't "do" it in the ToTJ compendium. Go check your sources.

The most ridiculous thing you could have ever said, is an "hours" old Luke "offering" assistance. Roflmfao, are you looking for excuses or something here?

Did you miss the part where Obi Wan actively "taps" into Luke, and drains him. Luke's assistance is just another way of saying that Luke's energy was extracted from him, lmfao. Did you miss the part where Obi Wan was explicitly stated as being very weak, and needed Luke's assistance? Obi Wan had utterly exhausted his reserves here from previous conflicts, had utterly spent himself physically, hence he needed to "drain" Luke.

I mean seriously? Obi Wan "taps" into Luke's power, allows it to flow into him, effectively rejuvenating himself with Luke's power and you somehow argue that it wasn't force drain. Lol, even if you check a ToTJ source, like the compendium, the definition of "drain" is "exactly what Obi Wan has done here. I get the strong feeling you are trolling here.

It "is" force drain, no matter how you spin it, lmfao. Obi Wan draws energy from a "few hours old" Luke, and Luke is knocked unconscious. Obi Wan gains more power, in his extremely hindered state. That is "exactly" what force drain is.

Next, no Revan didn't do it, lol. Not on the Sith emperor at least. Subtly influencing a person is vastly different from obliterating selected memories.

And you are wrong again. As I said, it is explicitly stated that the Jedi had only just come to know about even the existence of this power. They didn't use it because they had no idea it even existed, until just recently.

Lastly, again, it is explicitly stated that Jedi didn't "know" that you could even drain them. It's not that they didn't want to, they had no idea that such a thing could even be done.

These are "facts". Literally everything you said is your head canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Isn't Arca Jeth the first person who used it though?

That's not EM, that's Ionize. He just has to short circuit the wires inside a droid with precision. That's nowhere close to manipulating electronics by overriding their programmed functions.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
No offense, but are you kidding me?

It was explicitly stated that the Jedi couldn't "do" it in the ToTJ compendium. Go check your sources.

The most ridiculous thing you could have ever said, is an "hours" old Luke "offering" assistance. Roflmfao, are you looking for excuses or something here?

Did you miss the part where Obi Wan actively "taps" into Luke, and drains him. Luke's assistance is just another way of saying that Luke's energy was extracted from him, lmfao. Did you miss the part where Obi Wan was explicitly stated as being very weak, and needed Luke's assistance? Obi Wan had utterly exhausted his reserves here from previous conflicts, had utterly spent himself physically, hence he needed to "drain" Luke.

I mean seriously? Obi Wan "taps" into Luke's power, allows it to flow into him, effectively rejuvenating himself with Luke's power and you somehow argue that it wasn't force drain. Lol, even if you check a ToTJ source, like the compendium, the definition of "drain" is "exactly what Obi Wan has done here. I get the strong feeling you are trolling here.

It "is" force drain, no matter how you spin it, lmfao. Obi Wan draws energy from a "few hours old" Luke, and Luke is knocked unconscious. Obi Wan gains more power, in his extremely hindered state. That is "exactly" what force drain is.

Next, no Revan didn't do it, lol. Not on the Sith emperor at least. Subtly influencing a person is vastly different from obliterating selected memories.

And you are wrong again. As I said, it is explicitly stated that the Jedi had only just come to know about even the existence of this power. They didn't use it because they had no idea it even existed, until just recently.

Lastly, again, it is explicitly stated that Jedi didn't "know" that you could even drain them. It's not that they didn't want to, they had no idea that such a thing could even be done.

These are "facts". Literally everything you said is your head canon.


From the drain part, it seems to me that Luke was amping up Obi-Wan, not the other way around. As about mind probe/memory rub, even Jinn warned him that it's a malice ability. And how does he know it, then?
As I said, the ancient Jedi learned these basic abilities, but were warned not to use them.
Revan might have not erased some of Vitiate's memory, but he was definitely altering his thoughts a little bit.
When you play the KotORs, you can Force-persuade people, it definitely has connection to mind-altering.

If they needed Ulic's secret to Force drain immunity, it proves that the Modern Jedi didn't know really every stuff.

No, Obi Wan was actively "drawing" energy from Luke. Come on man, this is as clear as it can get.

He knows it because the Jedi of the era know the force powers that Jedi of previous eras didn't. They picked it up at some point in history. Not in ToTJ, as I have stated.

As I said, they had no knowledge that these abilities even existed. It has been explicitly stated.

Force persuasion, sure. It is not a Sith ability. It is one of the most basic abilities there is.

And the Jedi of the PT era knew a lot more stuff that Jedi of other eras didn't. That game is non-canon in Legends anyways, so it holds little to no credibility.

On balance, modern Jedi are still folds better, and know more stuff than the converse.

How so?

It clearly explains that Luke's assistance drained him, not that Obi-Wan drained him. There is a difference between opening your mouth and eat or opening your mouth while someone feeds you.

And if tapping into someone/something is considered drain to you, then one of TOTJ Jedi Masters(a tree-like Jedi) tapped into the nexus of Ossus to destroy Kun, IIRC.

Because it is clearly said that Obi Wan was the one doing the action. Luke is just a newborn. He doesn't have the capability to "offer" assistance at this point. That aside, it is wrong anyways, since it is clear during the actual event itself that Luke did not do anything.

"Luke did not offer any assistance", Obi Wan took it. Can't you understand this? It was Obi Wan who tapped into Luke's force reserves and drew them into his own. Luke did not feed him, Obi Wan took the food and ate it.

Focus on the main event itself. You are utterly ignoring it, and desperately clinging to some side tangent, which is just a figure of speech, not at all meant to be taken literally. Especially because the actual event utterly contradicts it. Thus rendering it just a way of saying, or a manner of narration/figure of speech( call it whatever you want).

Case in point: Obi Wan drained Luke. End of story. I am not going to bother correcting you after this. I am pretty sure literally almost anybody will agree that Obi Wan was the one doing the draining.

That is a pretty laughable comparison. I am really not in the mood for discussions like this, so let me point out to you what force drain is:"Leeching/drawing off the life energy of another living being into your own to enhance your power". Which is exactly what Obi Wan did. Which is not at all, what Ood did.

You find no distinction between a living being and a nexus( which is meant to give energy to the force user of its alignment)? Drawing energy from a nexus isn't force drain, rofl.

Do you know the definition of drain?

Drain=when you absorb

What's the difference between absorbing someone's Force energy or a nexus' force energy?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Case in point: Obi Wan drained Luke. End of story. I am not going to bother correcting you after this. I am pretty sure literally almost anybody will agree that Obi Wan was the one doing the draining.
Eh, I doubt it - as in, the technique Obi-Wan uses is clearly different from the harmful, pervasive, dark-side "Force drain" we all know and love. It more similar to light-side powers like Force Valor, but in this instance you're calling on the strength of allies rather than giving it to them.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Because it is clearly said that Obi Wan was the one doing the action. Luke is just a newborn. He doesn't have the capability to "offer" assistance at this point. That aside, it is wrong anyways, since it is clear during the actual event itself that Luke did not do anything.

"Luke did not offer any assistance", Obi Wan took it. Can't you understand this? It was Obi Wan who tapped into Luke's force reserves and drew them into his own. Luke did not feed him, Obi Wan took the food and ate it.

Focus on the main event itself. You are utterly ignoring it, and desperately clinging to some side tangent, which is just a figure of speech, not at all meant to be taken literally. Especially because the actual event utterly contradicts it. Thus rendering it just a way of saying, or a manner of narration/figure of speech( call it whatever you want).

Case in point: Obi Wan drained Luke. End of story. I am not going to bother correcting you after this. I am pretty sure literally almost anybody will agree that Obi Wan was the one doing the draining.

That is a pretty laughable comparison. I am really not in the mood for discussions like this, so let me point out to you what force drain is:"Leeching/drawing off the life energy of another living being into your own to enhance your power". Which is exactly what Obi Wan did. Which is not at all, what Ood did.

You find no distinction between a living being and a nexus( which is meant to give energy to the force user of its alignment)? Drawing energy from a nexus isn't force drain, rofl.



Do you know the definition of drain?

Drain=when you absorb something on your own

The word "tap" doesn't mean drain. It isn't a synonym. It's like saying Dooku tapped into the dark side. That means he immersed himself in the dark side and allowed it to flow through him without him doing anything.

And I show you the same source to you and prove Obi-Wan didn't drain Luke at all.


"Tapping into the tiny luminous being, Obi-Wan allowed Luke's singular Force signature to course into him.(...)

The description is accurate. Obi-Wan established a Force connection/bond with Luke by tapping into him, and let Luke/or for better use of words, Luke gave some of his Force strength to Obi-Wan.

Hence you have, "Obi-Wan allowed Luke's Force signature to course into him.(...)"
........

"Luke's assistance in the struggle with Fomadu had drained the boy totally, drubbing the newborn unconscious."

Credit:Lone Wolf-A Tale of Obi Wan and Luke

It was made very clear that Luke giving some of his Force strength to Obi-Wan drained him(hence: Luke's assistance)

I don't know what's so hard to understand?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh, I doubt it - as in, the technique Obi-Wan uses is clearly different from the harmful, pervasive, dark-side "Force drain" we all know and love. It more similar to light-side powers like Force Valor, but in this instance you're calling on the strength of allies rather than giving it to them.

Exactly. It is not Force drain. Thank you for the back up. You really are one of KMC top debaters.

I don't know why it comes so hard to many OT/PT fan(boys too) to acknowledge that not all the Jedi lore was passed on from generation to generation. In fact much of it was lost.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh, I doubt it - as in, the technique Obi-Wan uses is clearly different from the harmful, pervasive, dark-side "Force drain" we all know and love. It more similar to light-side powers like Force Valor, but in this instance you're calling on the strength of allies rather than giving it to them.

Actually, this is incorrect. Obi Wan later acknowledges it as a harmful dark side variant of drain, later on in the novel:



It's made pretty obvious that he did it while under the temptation of the dark side. His extreme fear for Luke( outright stated) made him desperate enough to drain him of his force reserves, when Obi Wan was tremendously hindered and fighting a Dark Jedi.

As for you Nadd, I rally don't know if you are just incapable of understanding or voluntarily blinding yourself to the facts to suit your agenda, but I am genuinely baffled as to how you can't understand that it is Obi Wan, not Luke who is doing the action here. That you don't have the basic cranial capacity to understand that Obi Wan is taking Luke's power into his own being, that Luke is just a being, a spectator, an object waiting to be drained. Luke is not performing any kind of "action" here, it is just Obi Wan.

To officially end this little drama of yours, the official definition of "tap(ing)" as a verb is:

"To exploit/Exploiting or draw(ing) a supply( from a resource)".

In this case, Luke's force reserves are the "source". Obi Wan is "tapping" into it. Which means that he is "drawing" a "supply"(power) from the "source". It is the official definition of the verb, so if you had any common sense you would stop here. You can literally see that it is explicitly confirmed that Obi Wan was actively drawing energy from Luke. See, this is the problem when you get into a game of semantics, and when you are just blindly seeking to oppose the opposition's assertions by any means possible. It can be turned against you with even greater force.

More than that, I don't think even what I have posted( new quotes) will convince you. You are clinging on to that same quote that "Luke assisted", ignoring all common sense. Now that it is confirmed legitimately that it is a dark side ability, and not "a day old Luke being kind enough to offer his assistance", that "officially speaking" Obi Wan had actively drawn power from Luke's reserves, and that it was Obi Wan who had almost killed Luke with it, I am sure you will have some or another excuse for it.

Then ancient Jedi did use drain too, if tap to you means drain. Whether it is a nexus or a person makes no difference.

And what is with that story? Is it even EU canon?

Why are there ROTS mentions in the scenes?
I am afraid it's not even part of the EU's canon. Thus, it cannot be used as proof for new Jedi>ancient Jedi since it shares a different continuity.

Yeah, it is a part of the Lost Missions, which is confirmed to be Legends. Released in 2015.

Obviously there are ROTS mentions. I just didn't put them, since they aren't necessary.

And you've got to be kidding me right now.

Nadd, just because something mentions RotS doesn't mean it's not Legends, lol. You do realise that there's plenty of Legends sources that refer to RotS, right? The movie era was far more built up in the Legends EU than in the Canon EU for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Yeah, it is a part of the Lost Missions, which is confirmed to be Legends. Released in 2015.

Obviously there are ROTS mentions. I just didn't put them, since they aren't necessary.

And you've got to be kidding me right now.

I think you know me pretty well. I never joke or troll with any member around here. And I don't disrespect anyone. And I want to hold a decent debate or discussion.

And why you say "(...) is confirmed(...)?

Does that mean there was a time when it "wasn't confirmed"?

And who confirmed it?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nadd, just because something mentions RotS doesn't mean it's not Legends, lol. You do realise that there's plenty of Legends sources that refer to RotS, right? The movie era was far more built up in the Legends EU than in the Canon EU for obvious reasons.

Oh, that I agree with. But the time frame still doesn't deviate from the story.

But I never heard of Lost Mission, to be honest.

LOTL says it's been confirmed to be Legends-wise. That means there was a time when its canonicity was disputable.

The Force Through The Ages

Not every Force power or talent is well known in all eras. Knowledge is gained and lost over time, and techniques that are common during the Great Sith War are all but forgotten by the time of the Clone Wars.

Taken from Jedi Academy Training Manual

That implies that knowledge has also been gained.

Legend right now:

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I think you know me pretty well. I never joke or troll with any member around here. And I don't disrespect anyone. And I want to hold a decent debate or discussion.

And why you say "(...) is confirmed(...)?

Does that mean there was a time when it "wasn't confirmed"?

And who confirmed it?

Dude, when I said it is confirmed to be Legends, I meant that it is legitimately a part of the Legends continuity.

Which happened immediately upon its release in 2015. The stories were written before but weren't published and you can hardly expect Disney to declare something that has not even been officially published as Legends.

@Rocky

I can understand your pain.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@Rocky

I can understand your pain.

A friend once told me that anybody can say something witty from time to time.

Congratulations: You've finally proved somebody wrong.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A friend once told me that anybody can say something witty from time to time.

Congratulations: You've finally proved somebody wrong.

ngl I might sig this.

^ROFL.

I really dont know whether to waste my time on the above or not. Assuming I get free time tomorrow, I may consider it.

Literally everything relevant is just straight up wrong. You have either outright given deliberately twisted perspectives or have written straight up false stuff. I daresay this brings your credibility to null. Not surprising considering quite a few others have the same opinion.

How do I twist anything?

If anything, blame the writer for their work and use of weird wording, not me.
If Obi-Wan really knew Force drain; he would rather use it on other life-forms for siphon, not Luke's Force signature. Heck, he would have used it on the Dark Jedi instead Luke.
Here you just presented Obi-Wan's reaction when baby Luke fainted due to him amplifying Obi-Wan's power when they created their Force bond. That's why the writer even references the ROTS scene where Anakin Force chokes Padme. Due to what he did, Luke was hurt and he thought it was a dark side ability.

Anyway, DA66 said it is not part of the Legends' timeline.

Some contentions to the thread / the above.

- Drain, or one of it's variants, is known by Jedi in the TOTJ era as per the Tales of the Jedi Companion.

- In that book, the Illusions and electronic manipulation are classed as dark side techniques, correct, but no where is it alluded to that they couldn't be used with caution for those who sought out such knowledge. The TOTJ companion, written form the perspective of Ood Bnar, mentions how the knowledge has recently resurfaced, but given his own age (a tree man who's lived over 1000 years before Kun's time) the term "recently" might mean something very different to us than to him.

- The text LOTL brought up even mentions how Force illusions are still considered dark side powers in modern times, but that Qui Gon taught Kenobi regardless. That is not the same as "TOTJ Jedi council masters can't do illusions while PT Neophyts can". Especially when you consider Jinn's status among the jedi as a maverick rule bender at the time.

In the context of what this forum is about (versus battles) the revelation of Obi Wan performing weak variants of illusion and drain (using it on a baby) aren't really game changers to how well he does against the Jedi from 400 years prior. As far as combat is concerned, they had the basis covers. For example, Nomi Sunraider, who was just a knight at the time, dispelling malicious illusions against Keto. And Ulic Qel droma of course, using a unique ability to counter drain, something that Yoda and Mace Windu couldn't teach Anakin. That's a pretty big deal btw. Because if either two aren't confident in facing a forest tier death field that uniformly distributes it's power across a vast area, than you can practically garauntee that a planet eater, who can pick out singular targets to be the victim of his will, is going to stomp them. It also opens up other hypothetical future battles.

All good and ok, bro. Point is that Obi-Wan didn't use Force drain; it was a Force bond that benefited Obi-Wan by establishing a connection with Luke(and being amplified due to that Force bond) that rendered Luke unconscious due to Luke strengthening Obi-Wan's power. No Force drain involved. If Obi-Wan knew Force drain; he'd have used it on the Dark Jedi. Lol

Really I am the only one who understands that Kenobi didn't use Force drain in this scene?! :

Yeah, as I said too. Just because they were classified as dark side powers that doesn't mean Jedi Masters didn't teach their apprentices back in the days of The Old Republic.

As about the Dark Reaper Immunity; I think I found the explanation. You just have to visit my thread.

One thing I recall in TotJ is that regular Jedi could repel blaster bolts and more with their hands like Vader does in ESB, which I'm pretty sure is a very rare technique in PT times.

You should see what Ulic was deflecting with that power.

It wouldn't matter Neph, the blaster technology is one thing that has certifiably improved over that 4000 year time period.

Jedi techniques, weapons, martial arts forms, armour on the other hand have pretty much stayed exactly the same. Which basically negates half of this thread.

The whole thread. Lol

So much Lucas fanboyism.

What, because insisting older era characters are inherently more powerful isn't fanboyism? That was once the status quo here.

Pretty sure plenty of people like the PT independently of Lucas. Plenty of SW fans don't like him either.

First of all: None of us above did. DA66 did. But he has a source to back it up.